Which do you guys prefer: SSBM or SSBB? Is SSBB deeper in gameplay?

I just saw a few videos of SSBM battles, and I feel that they were very fast and insanely deep. However, I know that SSBB is out. I'm wondering, do you feel that SSBB is as fast, and as deep or more deep in terms of gameplay? I'm posting in the Wii forums because the Legacy forums doesn't include the wii.

I much prefer Brawl. Melee's a busted game in comparison. As for gameplay depth, if you count glitches, I think Melee has the edge.JebranRush

A lot of people don't understand that, though it's a very competitive fighter, Brawl wasn't designed with 1v1 in mind. Brawl is meant to cancel out many of the unfair advantages that were in Melee, so in a 1v1 match, it seems as though it's lacking depth.

Stick four players in a match with items turned on and there's a lot more strategy to the game. Or randomness...but still mostly strategy.

A lot of people don't understand that, though it's a very competitive fighter, Brawl wasn't designed with 1v1 in mind. Brawl is meant to cancel out many of the unfair advantages that were in Melee, so in a 1v1 match, it seems as though it's lacking depth.

Stick four players in a match with items turned on and there's a lot more strategy to the game. Or randomness...but still mostly strategy.

Dingerious

Melee is unquestionably the deeper game.Nintendo did a ton of things to ruin Brawl from a competitive standpoint.

Melee is definitely faster, but that's because they deliberately slowed down Brawl, and this was mentioned months before release on the SSBB homepage.

Also, a lot of Melee's depth comes from many of the "advanced techniques" players found through experimentation. "However, many, if not all, of those techniques were really just glitches. People try to argue that they weren't, but I figure that if they were actually intended to be part of the game that they would have made a return in Brawl, which they didn't.

All of them are amazing games but Brawl really gathered what was great about the two first games and then it added its own specialty. The game is more than a game its a platform.

People who say Melee was better are crazy. They complain about Nintendo not keeping in certain glitches. That is not true though, Nintendo actually kept those glitches in just in a way thatisnot spammable cheap. Brawl is much more balanced in terms of characters (except Lucas and Ness).

I agree that Melee had a much faster pace, yet I prefer Brawl.

Nintendo like every other game company made games more accessible also they removed alot the explotive gameplay the same as they did with Mario Kart Wii vs Mario Kart DS as they learned from that game, when yo go online you have to make more of an efforr to balance the field so alot of those explotations that people call depth are removed. Sepewrath

People who say Melee was better are crazy. They complain about Nintendo not keeping in certain glitches. That is not true though, Nintendo actually kept those glitches in just in a way thatisnot spammable cheap. Brawl is much more balanced in terms of characters (except Lucas and Ness).

kardine

The claims that "removing glitches" is the sole reason why certain gamers prefer Melee to Brawl is faulty,and frankly,I don't even consider most of the things such as wavedashing to be glitches than more as just a means of manipulating the game's engine and pushing the game to its absolute competitive limit.

And depending if they fall into your definition of glitches or not,does it really matter?They took skill and practice to master.They separated the experts from the novices.Removing them (along with changing many other things) and forcing experts to be on the same level as novices is not balancing; that's outright dumbing down.

Brawl completely lacks any sense of proper punishment in its gameplay mechanics,and the game is unbalanced because of it;; There is practically no hitsun.There are no true combos.The fewer means of moving and the slower pace just makes the game boring.Characters are imbalanced.The lack of L-canceling throws off the character balance even further.Shields are overbuffed.Camping is actually rewarded.And tripping especially shows who Nintendo was appealing to in creating the game.

Those are just a few of the reasons why I prefer Melee.

[QUOTE="Dingerious"]

A lot of people don't understand that, though it's a very competitive fighter, Brawl wasn't designed with 1v1 in mind. Brawl is meant to cancel out many of the unfair advantages that were in Melee, so in a 1v1 match, it seems as though it's lacking depth.

Stick four players in a match with items turned on and there's a lot more strategy to the game. Or randomness...but still mostly strategy.

hydralisk86

Brawl isn't a game that's meant to be played 1v1 with no items on a flat, unchanging stage. Doing so guts out everything that makes Smash Bros stand out from other fighters.

[QUOTE="kardine"]

People who say Melee was better are crazy. They complain about Nintendo not keeping in certain glitches. That is not true though, Nintendo actually kept those glitches in just in a way thatisnot spammable cheap. Brawl is much more balanced in terms of characters (except Lucas and Ness).

The claims that "removing glitches" is the sole reason why certain gamers prefer Melee to Brawl is faulty,and frankly,I don't even consider most of the things such as wavedashing to be glitches than more as just a means of manipulating the game's engine and pushing the game to its absolute competitive limit.

And depending if they fall into your definition of glitches or not,does it really matter?They took skill and practice to master.They separated the experts from the novices.Removing them (along with changing many other things) and forcing experts to be on the same level as novices is not balancing; that's outright dumbing down.

Brawl completely lacks any sense of proper punishment in its gameplay mechanics,and the game is unbalanced because of it;; There is practically no hitsun.There are no true combos.The fewer means of moving and the slower pace just makes the game boring.Characters are imbalanced.The lack of L-canceling throws off the character balance even further.Shields are overbuffed.Camping is actually rewarded.And tripping especially shows who Nintendo was appealing to in creating the game.

Those are just a few of the reasons why I prefer Melee.

you gotta admit though..Brawl trumps melee in terms of contentShinobishyguy

Indeed.The game also has an absolutely incredible,varied soundtrack.

The claims that "removing glitches" is the sole reason why certain gamers prefer Melee to Brawl is faulty,and frankly,I don't even consider most of the things such as wavedashing to be glitches than more as just a means of manipulating the game's engine and pushing the game to its absolute competitive limit.

And depending if they fall into your definition of glitches or not,does it really matter?They took skill and practice to master.They separated the experts from the novices.Removing them (along with changing many other things) and forcing experts to be on the same level as novices is not balancing; that's outright dumbing down.VGobbsesser

I like how you start off saying that removing glitches isn't why people like Melee better, then spend half your post using them as an argument as to why Melee is better.

Also, I will agree that it took time and practice to get them to work just right. But, then again, it takes time, knowledge, and skill for people learn and successfully to hack games to do things never intended to be in the game, so should they be rewarded as well?

I like how you start off saying that removing glitches isn't why people like Melee better, then spend half your post using them as an argument as to why Melee is better.

Also, I will agree that it took time and practice to get them to work just right. But, then again, it takes time, knowledge, and skill for people learn and successfully to hack games to do things never intended to be in the game, so should they be rewarded as well?

MischiefmAker

There is a debate on whether or not the the advanced techniques are glitches in the first place,and I mentioned it.My exact words were:

The claims that "removing glitches" isthe sole reason why certain gamers prefer Melee to Brawl is faulty.

VGobbsesser

...with the phrase "sole reason" implying that it is the only issue; I described the issue of the advanced techniques/glitches and other gameplay elements as well.My wording is fine.

And hacking is manipulating a game outside of the parameters of the game's engine.Not the same.

"Deeper" can be a tricky word, depending on if you consider glitches and exploits as depth in your book or not. What can be said is that Super Smash Bros. Brawl is a more polished game than Melee by a significant margin. Deciding to slow down the speed of the gameplay in Brawl was a pretty good move, considering the action that can take place during a standard match. I also think Brawl is a more balanced game; it may not be perfect, but there is a better sense that success isn't as pre-determined, based on the character and match type you choose. At the end of the day, the SSB series isn't one to be taken so seriously to begin with, and it's great to see that all of the tourneys and such didn't go to the developers' heads as they were making Brawl.

Brawl is better than melee in every single aspect except competitive gameplay. If your choosing between the 2, go for brawl. It has way more characters, a plot. huger soundtrack, stage creator, and online gameplay. GO BUY BRAWL NAO!

Brawl is better than melee in every single aspect except competitive gameplay. If your choosing between the 2, go for brawl. It has way more characters, a plot. huger soundtrack, stage creator, and online gameplay. GO BUY BRAWL NAO!

Hungry_Jello

[QUOTE="Hungry_Jello"]

Brawl is better than melee in every single aspect except competitive gameplay. If your choosing between the 2, go for brawl. It has way more characters, a plot. huger soundtrack, stage creator, and online gameplay. GO BUY BRAWL NAO!

kinger256

The TC said which do we prefer and which should he buy. I'm not going to tell him to get the older less character filled, no plot having, game. Brawl may be down in one aspect but overall it still is the better game.

Brawl has better gameplay because Melee had way too many ways in which its glitches could be exploited. However I'll never forget the first time I played Melee. The graphical update over SSB 64 was mind-blowing.

Brawl has better gameplay because Melee had way too many ways in which its glitches could be exploited. However I'll never forget the first time I played Melee. The graphical update over SSB 64 was mind-blowing.

firefox59

[QUOTE="kardine"]

People who say Melee was better are crazy. They complain about Nintendo not keeping in certain glitches. That is not true though, Nintendo actually kept those glitches in just in a way thatisnot spammable cheap. Brawl is much more balanced in terms of characters (except Lucas and Ness).

The claims that "removing glitches" is the sole reason why certain gamers prefer Melee to Brawl is faulty,and frankly,I don't even consider most of the things such as wavedashing to be glitches than more as just a means of manipulating the game's engine and pushing the game to its absolute competitive limit.

And depending if they fall into your definition of glitches or not,does it really matter?They took skill and practice to master.They separated the experts from the novices.Removing them (along with changing many other things) and forcing experts to be on the same level as novices is not balancing; that's outright dumbing down.

Brawl completely lacks any sense of proper punishment in its gameplay mechanics,and the game is unbalanced because of it;; There is practically no hitsun.There are no true combos.The fewer means of moving and the slower pace just makes the game boring.Characters are imbalanced.The lack of L-canceling throws off the character balance even further.Shields are overbuffed.Camping is actually rewarded.And tripping especially shows who Nintendo was appealing to in creating the game.

Those are just a few of the reasons why I prefer Melee.

And hacking is manipulating a game outside of the parameters of the game's engine.Not the same.

VGobbsesser

Yeah, I hurriedly typed that out before I ran off to work, beating myselfd up over not having a better counter-point (I thought of plenty on the way there). Sorry about that. :D

[QUOTE="firefox59"]

Brawl has better gameplay because Melee had way too many ways in which its glitches could be exploited. However I'll never forget the first time I played Melee. The graphical update over SSB 64 was mind-blowing.

hydralisk86

Oh it was.

It was...

Brawl is better than melee in every single aspect except competitive gameplay. If your choosing between the 2, go for brawl. It has way more characters, a plot. huger soundtrack, stage creator, and online gameplay. GO BUY BRAWL NAO!

[QUOTE="kinger256"][QUOTE="Hungry_Jello"]

Brawl is better than melee in every single aspect except competitive gameplay. If your choosing between the 2, go for brawl. It has way more characters, a plot. huger soundtrack, stage creator, and online gameplay. GO BUY BRAWL NAO!

tocool340

brawl is better

It is a exploit,glitch, whatever because they did not mean to do that and the action itself is spammable and unblanced. It did take skill but it was also detracting from the real fighting in the game. Brawl balanced the euqation. Brawl's characters are more balanced and the fighting takes more precision and kardine

They are part of the game engine,and they do not give anyone an unfair advantage over another.They actually improved the game,because these exploits/techniques/glitches/whatever you want to call them added depth.They took time and practice,and made the game far more entertaining.Sure,you could spam them,butthe same could be said about every single move in every single fighting game,so the point is moot.These actually took practice and skill to learn (something I can't emphasize enough).It isn't like standing at the edge of the stage,and lobbing projectiles at the other opponent,which is easy and something the game balance of Brawl actually promotes.

What Brawl did is lower the amount of moves possible,and make every single move easy to do.The "advanced techniques" take very short time to adjust to,and the term "advanced techniques" loses its meaning.The Brawl metagame is crippled in comparison to Melee.

And Brawl balanced the equation?They ruined it.The game has absolutely no sense of proper punishment,or rewarding.Melee had an absolutely excellent sense of punishment.You had to properly guess your opponent,and prepare an attack,and if you misjudged,you were punished.There's nothing like that in Brawl.In Brawl,if you were the one who effectively landed an attack,there is the possibility that you get punished instead of your opponent for his faulty actions.Camping/spamming is an unfortunately viable tactic in this type of game.

Characters are on the same level when they shouldn't be; that isn't "balance" in the slightest.

And the characters aren't balanced.The lack of L-canceling prevents slow,bulky characters from standing a chance and speeding up,and the slower game speed makes it even worse; they at least stood a chance in Melee.Shielding is overbuffed.Recovery has been increased to the points where many characters don't even have to worry about falling of the stages.Characters like Metaknight and Snake are unbalanced themselves,along with a bunch of other parts of certain characters.

lol I find it so funny when people blame casuals for everything now, the line between casual and hardcore gamers is so far blurred that there is no longer a distinction. Also take MKDS the snaking was removed because it was an exploit that bothered hardcore gamers, because this is before the time of casual gamers right?Sepewrath

And when every single other source claims that the shift in audience ruined a game blindly,Smashers can't blame them now when they can actually back up what they're saying?

There's a big difference between the gameplay mechanics of Smash Brothers and Mario Kart.Most of the advanced techniques in Melee are difficult to master,easily requiring hours until one becomes fully adjusted to do.Mario Kart,on the other hand,has one major boosting technique in a game engine with comparatively little to do in the first place,and it didn't take long to master.One could easily copy the other person,and snake,but the limited gameplay movement of the game itself results in it becoming quite boring.

And the developers of Brawl removed more than just one technique,and changed more than just one gameplay element.

[QUOTE="tocool340"][QUOTE="kinger256"] Well obviously with brawl being released 7 years later the game would better in all aspects, but for some stupid reason, they tinkered with the near perfect game play, which was praised as one of the best fighting games, to fit the appeal of casuals.Sepewrath

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"] you gotta admit though..Brawl trumps melee in terms of contentVGobbsesser

Indeed.The game also has an absolutely incredible,varied soundtrack.

[QUOTE="C-Lee"]I like everything more in Brawl except Tripping. Terrible, Terrible ideaHead_of_games

Honestly, that's kinda missing the point of a fighting game. Especially the lack of hitstun.

Overhead hits shouldn't be useless, I should be punished for rolling within an opponent's range by a grab, not follow up with one, and kinetic force or just hitpush itself should not be ignored outside smashes.

I want to feel like I lost or won a game, not that the recovery grab didn't work on a specific stage or I just spammed Waddle Doos in a corner.

[QUOTE="kardine"] It is a exploit,glitch, whatever because they did not mean to do that and the action itself is spammable and unblanced. It did take skill but it was also detracting from the real fighting in the game. Brawl balanced the euqation. Brawl's characters are more balanced and the fighting takes more precision and VGobbsesser

They are part of the game engine,and they do not give anyone an unfair advantage over another.They actually improved the game,because these exploits/techniques/glitches/whatever you want to call them added depth.They took time and practice,and made the game far more entertaining.Sure,you could spam them,butthe same could be said about every single move in every single fighting game,so the point is moot.These actually took practice and skill to learn (something I can't emphasize enough).It isn't like standing at the edge of the stage,and lobbing projectiles at the other opponent,which is easy and something the game balance of Brawl actually promotes.

What Brawl did is lower the amount of moves possible,and make every single move easy to do.The "advanced techniques" take very short time to adjust to,and the term "advanced techniques" loses its meaning.The Brawl metagame is crippled in comparison to Melee.

And Brawl balanced the equation?They ruined it.The game has absolutely no sense of proper punishment,or rewarding.Melee had an absolutely excellent sense of punishment.You had to properly guess your opponent,and prepare an attack,and if you misjudged,you were punished.There's nothing like that in Brawl.In Brawl,if you were the one who effectively landed an attack,there is the possibility that you get punished instead of your opponent for his faulty actions.Camping/spamming is an unfortunately viable tactic in this type of game.

Characters are on the same level when they shouldn't be; that isn't "balance" in the slightest.

And the characters aren't balanced.The lack of L-canceling prevents slow,bulky characters from standing a chance and speeding up,and the slower game speed makes it even worse; they at least stood a chance in Melee.Shielding is overbuffed.Recovery has been increased to the points where many characters don't even have to worry about falling of the stages.Characters like Metaknight and Snake are unbalanced themselves,along with a bunch of other parts of certain characters.

lol I find it so funny when people blame casuals for everything now, the line between casual and hardcore gamers is so far blurred that there is no longer a distinction. Also take MKDS the snaking was removed because it was an exploit that bothered hardcore gamers, because this is before the time of casual gamers right?Sepewrath

And when every single other source claims that the shift in audience ruined a game blindly,Smashers can't blame them now when they can actually back up what they're saying?

There's a big difference between the gameplay mechanics of Smash Brothers and Mario Kart.Most of the advanced techniques in Melee are difficult to master,easily requiring hours until one becomes fully adjusted to do.Mario Kart,on the other hand,has one major boosting technique in a game engine with comparatively little to do in the first place,and it didn't take long to master.One could easily copy the other person,and snake,but the limited gameplay movement of the game itself results in it becoming quite boring.

And the developers of Brawl removed more than just one technique,and changed more than just one gameplay element.

both are pretty dull and incredibly shallow,

brawl has more stuff

I liked Brawl more than Melee, because it had more content, such as creating your own stage and being able too take pictures in the middle of ANY kind pf battle, not just in a camera mode, and then of course Brawl has Wifi, though it is pretty bad (but hopefully it will be fixed in the next SSB game, assuming there is another SSB game in the future, that is). Also Brawl had a much MUCH better music list, IMO.

And I will say that while Melee and Brawl are different in gamepay aspects, both of them still require skill in order to be successful, it's just that the skills needed to be victorious may be different in each. You can't just plat Melee for your first time or Brawl for your first time, and expect to beat a pro in either of those games, in both games you need to play them both enough to be able to develope some skill and technique and experience. Both Melee and Brawl can get competeive to me.

both are pretty dull and incredibly shallow,

brawl has more stuff

That is really niceits part of the game engine but the developers were not aware of it, as a result there was no balancing involved with the one out of a million like wave dashing. It does not matter if it took skill or not it was not a polished move and it detracted from how you should play SSB. I used all these exploits in Melee because that is the only way to compete but then when they refined these exploits into something less chaotic it left the player using the character more for his fighting style. They only ruined the game for those who hate change, Sora aproached these exploits and managed them into Brawl in the best way possible. The punishment is there, if play well and fight strategically then you can dish out punishment. If anything Brawl promotes straight up fighting where Melee promotes passive agressive behaivor. Shooting projectiles at the edge of the screen will not do anything to the other play if they are good enough to dodge it and if the player does hit them with a projectile it is because they planned it out right. Characters should be on the same level, the concept of tiers are torn down (slightly). Characters who can fly back up are lacking in some other area, do I really have to explain the whole game to you? Its right there. Bigger/slower characters never had a chance in Melee and they still do not in Brawl. It is something they have not fixed and should for the next game. At least in Brawl characters like Bowser are a bit stronger now.

kardine

The developers weren't aware of how the engine was going to be torn apart and what techniques were going to be discovered,but that's partially because they created such a versatile engine in the first place.It should commendable to the developers that they managed to create such a versatile engine while still managing to keep everything balanced.

I already explained how Brawl lacks a proper form of punishment.

There is basically no hitstun.Almost none whatsoever.It is because of the lack of hitstun that makes it so that when a character attacks their opponent for their faulty actions,there is a strong possibility that the attacking character will be punished instead,because he might be left at a disadvantage.The lack of comboing also prevents punishment fair enough to the mistakes the opponent made.The opponent made the mistake,and the attacker is the one punished; not fair in the slightest.It shouldn't work like that.

Camping (lobbing projectiles at the end of a stage,in this example) is a promoted and (sadly) effective technique.Gameplay speed has been decreased fairly significantly,and the amount of approach techniques has been decreased significantly as well,as every single one is boring,predictable,easily visible,and leave the attack open for (unfair) punishment.Approaching has no longer become a viable option.One could make the risk of approaching,facing damage,but the other player could easily move away,and start camping again.

Matches are kept even when they shouldn't be.I think you misinterpreted me when I said that "characters are on the same level when they shouldn't be," but my word choice wasn't perfect,and I apologize for my unclear wording.I was talking about how the unfair punishment left players at a constant neutral state within the fight itself,not the abilities of the in-game characters.

Recovery is overpowered beyond belief with many of the characters,and magnetic ledges with bigger ledge grabs worsen it.Metaknight,for example,has some of the most insane recovering abilities in the game; he will almost always get back on stage,period.The same could be said for many other characters in Brawl.But I can't say the same for Melee.

Bulky characters could stand a formidable chance in Melee.They weren't popular characters,but a seasoned player could work with them well.L-canceling (something not in Brawl) allowed that to be possible,with aerial attacks and movement sped up significantly,allowing for proper combos and punishment (also left out of Brawl).

The first week I had Brawl, I was really dissapointed, it was so much slower than melee. After playing a while I got used to it, and overall it's a way better looking and just a way better game. I miss being able to completely destroy with Falco in melee, now I'm not as good with him. Also if you did a meteor smash in melee, it sent a guy down every time. It's much more fast paced, but Brawl did a great job of balancing out characters. Brawl is a better game, if you need a reason to stick with it, just look at melee's graphics for 5 minutes.