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How is Game and Watch top tier and King Dedede very high? O_0 There are also many other flaws with that list but there are to many and I don't feel like listing them. Other than that, nice list. Ike players got owned. XDTwilightSoilder
Game and Watch is amazing!! he is defenitely a top tier character, and if you dont believe it, u can play me and find out why
also, DDD owns
[QUOTE="Dark_Link142"]Facts? Let's see, where shall I start...
As I mentioned before in my previous statement, Captain Falcon is more of a hit and run character. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have combos. His up air attack (back flip kick thing) is excellent in providing a quick and powerful surprise attack which can potentially KO an opponent (usually around 100% damage). This attack can be used after doing a running tackle or a grab attack (up grab or down grab) and can usually be done twice.
His neutral air attack allows for a quick double kick which has fast recovery upon landing allowing to make several choices. Grab, Neutral A attack, roll, or repeat double kick. This creates a potentially powerful combo depending on how you proceed from there.
But as I said, he's not really a character you can do a lot of combos with. His hit-and-run style of combat is useful for faking opponents out. His fast speed mixed with his powerful attacks can be deadly. Almost every move Falcon has can be used to KO an opponent. That's why doing hit and run attacks is so key in building up damage. Completing the KO isn't hard to do since he's so powerful. The easiest move to KO and enemy is his standard up air attack (backflip kick). His standard back air attack (surprise punch from the back) is also very useful. By running at an enemy, then quickly turning back and doing his back air attack, your opponent probably woudn't be expecting such an attack and can be KO'ed.
At the same time, doing this hit and run style combat can make Falcon a predictable character. That's why when your opponent begins to catch on to this pattern of attack, throwing in random attacks like Falcon Kick (bad recovery but quick to launch) can mess your enemy up.
The Falcon Dive is useful for setting up combos and is a handy suprise meteor attack. Once your opponent is knocked off the edge, wait for them to return a certain distance. Jump over them and do the Falcon Dive when the other character is about to perform their recovery attack. Your enemy will be meteored and Captain Falcon can make a safe return to the edge since a successful Dive in the air allows an automatic short hop to occur.
Falcon's tilt smashes can be helpful depending on how they're used. His down tilt is a sweeping ground kick which hits the opponent into the air and can be followed by a short hop and neutral air attack (double kick). This is useful when your opponent is at lower damage so they don't get launched too high. His forward tilt is a quick kick (try saying that 10 times :P ) and isn't very useful. His up tilt though, is surpisingly handy. Opponents who get launched up by a grab attack or the down tilt can be attacked by this move since it can hit your opponent before they have a chance to recover. It's also fairly powerful and can KO opponents roughly around 125%.
Captain Falcon is a difficult character to master. Admittedly, most of his moves have bad recovery times but once you get to properly use him, he can be incredibly powerful.
Another attack, "The Knee" ( :P ), is difficult to connect but is useful. When a character who can't recover from one of Falcon's attacks (down tilt, Falcon Dive, etc) is in the air, a swift knee attack is handy here.
Key points:
Hit and run style attacks to build up damage
Several short and effective combos
Many surprise attacks
Powerful and speedy but not used for direct combatSonick54
hit and run-didn't i just tell you he has next to no priority? how do you expect him to even land his hits well when all of his smashes have start up lag, knee can barely connect annymore and most of his tilts have crappy range? And what will running away do when he can be punished easily by people who can spam projectiles all day, forcing him to approch anyway which will punish him further by him having moves that be stopped with a simple mario punch.
several short and effective combos-what combos do you speak of? Good luck starting any with no hitstun and hard to land air game.
surprise attacks which are what? All of his smash attacks are slow, his b moves have ending lag, recovery is easily gimped to hell and back. and him not being in direct combat is a good thing? he has no choice but to fight at close range, he has no projectiles. his down tilt ino no way can push a foe up for an immediate neutral air. anyone who can DI there way out will make that combo useless each time.
also, you arguing with me over falcon not being the worst character proves our point that tiers do exist.
Your argument is incredibly broken. You're re-asking questions of the things I already explained. Did you just skim through my post?
Priority has little to do with what I'm saying about hit and run. Faking out opponents and hitting and running means you hit enemies when they're open, not when they're attacking which means you shouldn't use Falcon in direct combat.
"several short and effective combos-what combos do you speak of?" You clearly didn't read the examples I gave about the Falcon Dive, double kick, backflip kick, and grabs.
"surprise attacks which are what?" Once again, read my post thoroughly. His up air (backflip kick) is quick and powerful, his back air is a surprising punch, the Falcon Dive meteor, etc.
Fighting an enemy with projectiles is the same as using other characters like Ike, Marth, and Donkey Kong. Jump around lots, air/ground dodge when necessary, and roll. You'll have to change to a more defensive combat way to go up against projectiles. It's really not as bad as you make it out to be. On a stage like Final Destination, two double jumps can get you very close to where you want to be. But at the same time, it's essential that you don't land right in front of your enemy so that they can knock you out. Dodging is key and timing necessary. As I said before, it's the same with other characters who don't have projectiles.
And me arguing with you about Falcon not being the worst has absolutely nothing to do with tiers being valid. That statement you made is completely false and makes absolutely no sense. I'm saying Captain Falcon has his strengths and weaknesses just like any other character.
[QUOTE="TwilightSoilder"] How is Game and Watch top tier and King Dedede very high? O_0 There are also many other flaws with that list but there are to many and I don't feel like listing them. Other than that, nice list. Ike players got owned. XDandrewham7
Game and Watch is amazing!! he is defenitely a top tier character, and if you dont believe it, u can play me and find out why
also, DDD owns
This. Game & Watch has the best encounter in the game.
[QUOTE="Sonick54"][QUOTE="Dark_Link142"]Facts? Let's see, where shall I start...
As I mentioned before in my previous statement, Captain Falcon is more of a hit and run character. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have combos. His up air attack (back flip kick thing) is excellent in providing a quick and powerful surprise attack which can potentially KO an opponent (usually around 100% damage). This attack can be used after doing a running tackle or a grab attack (up grab or down grab) and can usually be done twice.
His neutral air attack allows for a quick double kick which has fast recovery upon landing allowing to make several choices. Grab, Neutral A attack, roll, or repeat double kick. This creates a potentially powerful combo depending on how you proceed from there.
But as I said, he's not really a character you can do a lot of combos with. His hit-and-run style of combat is useful for faking opponents out. His fast speed mixed with his powerful attacks can be deadly. Almost every move Falcon has can be used to KO an opponent. That's why doing hit and run attacks is so key in building up damage. Completing the KO isn't hard to do since he's so powerful. The easiest move to KO and enemy is his standard up air attack (backflip kick). His standard back air attack (surprise punch from the back) is also very useful. By running at an enemy, then quickly turning back and doing his back air attack, your opponent probably woudn't be expecting such an attack and can be KO'ed.
At the same time, doing this hit and run style combat can make Falcon a predictable character. That's why when your opponent begins to catch on to this pattern of attack, throwing in random attacks like Falcon Kick (bad recovery but quick to launch) can mess your enemy up.
The Falcon Dive is useful for setting up combos and is a handy suprise meteor attack. Once your opponent is knocked off the edge, wait for them to return a certain distance. Jump over them and do the Falcon Dive when the other character is about to perform their recovery attack. Your enemy will be meteored and Captain Falcon can make a safe return to the edge since a successful Dive in the air allows an automatic short hop to occur.
Falcon's tilt smashes can be helpful depending on how they're used. His down tilt is a sweeping ground kick which hits the opponent into the air and can be followed by a short hop and neutral air attack (double kick). This is useful when your opponent is at lower damage so they don't get launched too high. His forward tilt is a quick kick (try saying that 10 times :P ) and isn't very useful. His up tilt though, is surpisingly handy. Opponents who get launched up by a grab attack or the down tilt can be attacked by this move since it can hit your opponent before they have a chance to recover. It's also fairly powerful and can KO opponents roughly around 125%.
Captain Falcon is a difficult character to master. Admittedly, most of his moves have bad recovery times but once you get to properly use him, he can be incredibly powerful.
Another attack, "The Knee" ( :P ), is difficult to connect but is useful. When a character who can't recover from one of Falcon's attacks (down tilt, Falcon Dive, etc) is in the air, a swift knee attack is handy here.
Key points:
Hit and run style attacks to build up damage
Several short and effective combos
Many surprise attacks
Powerful and speedy but not used for direct combatDark_Link142
hit and run-didn't i just tell you he has next to no priority? how do you expect him to even land his hits well when all of his smashes have start up lag, knee can barely connect annymore and most of his tilts have crappy range? And what will running away do when he can be punished easily by people who can spam projectiles all day, forcing him to approch anyway which will punish him further by him having moves that be stopped with a simple mario punch.
several short and effective combos-what combos do you speak of? Good luck starting any with no hitstun and hard to land air game.
surprise attacks which are what? All of his smash attacks are slow, his b moves have ending lag, recovery is easily gimped to hell and back. and him not being in direct combat is a good thing? he has no choice but to fight at close range, he has no projectiles. his down tilt ino no way can push a foe up for an immediate neutral air. anyone who can DI there way out will make that combo useless each time.
also, you arguing with me over falcon not being the worst character proves our point that tiers do exist.
Your argument is incredibly broken. You're re-asking questions of the things I already explained. Did you just skim through my post?
Priority has little to do with what I'm saying about hit and run. Faking out opponents and hitting and running means you hit enemies when they're open, not when they're attacking which means you shouldn't use Falcon in direct combat.
"several short and effective combos-what combos do you speak of?" You clearly didn't read the examples I gave about the Falcon Dive, double kick, backflip kick, and grabs.
"surprise attacks which are what?" Once again, read my post thoroughly. His up air (backflip kick) is quick and powerful, his back air is a surprising punch, the Falcon Dive meteor, etc.
Fighting an enemy with projectiles is the same as using other characters like Ike, Marth, and Donkey Kong. Jump around lots, air/ground dodge when necessary, and roll. You'll have to change to a more defensive combat way to go up against projectiles. It's really not as bad as you make it out to be. On a stage like Final Destination, two double jumps can get you very close to where you want to be. But at the same time, it's essential that you don't land right in front of your enemy so that they can knock you out. Dodging is key and timing necessary. As I said before, it's the same with other characters who don't have projectiles.
And me arguing with you about Falcon not being the worst has absolutely nothing to do with tiers being valid. That statement you made is completely false and makes absolutely no sense. I'm saying Captain Falcon has his strengths and weaknesses just like any other character.
Hit and run isn't effective for falcon because he can be punished quite easily due to, again, low priority. how can he pull off this hit and run tactic when he has a horrible approching method? other character's have bigger hitboxes that can pierce through his attacks before he can even pull them off. also, faking out can be performed by any character. mind games exist for every character not just falcon. another thing, how else are are you supposed to use falcon other than in close range? you can't possibly tell me he can attack from a good distance without being predictable. his moves have startup and ending lag.
the thing about enemies with projectiles is that you can't dodge them all damn day. you have to approch at some point to KO them, something falcon is not good at because of, again, low priority and other horrible flaws that crippled what was once an amazing combo machine in melee. his uair is incredibly hard to land and really doesnt;t have knockback. you give it way too much credit. bair is hardly that quick and you need to be at a good close range for it to have knockback. his dair is hard to land pretty damn easy to dodge. you act as if it's easy to pull off effectively like in melee, which is not the case. his nair can't connect properly anymore and is pretty useless anyway.falcon kick is way to slow and leaves him open long enough to be hit. use it from long range and you're basically asking yourself to be hit.
the thing about falcon is that he has far too many weakness compared to other characters. that is what makes him worse than others. he doesn't have as many advatanges as other characters. if you honestly believe that marth=falcon or snake=falcon then all i can say is you really don't understand brawl's competitive nature. Fighting games can never be truly balanced, if they were then that would mean every single character in the game has the same moveset, priority, range, speed, weight, KOing potential, which really is not the case in brawl whatsoever.
Your argument is incredibly broken. You're re-asking questions of the things I already explained. Did you just skim through my post?
Priority has little to do with what I'm saying about hit and run. Faking out opponents and hitting and running means you hit enemies when they're open, not when they're attacking which means you shouldn't use Falcon in direct combat.
"several short and effective combos-what combos do you speak of?" You clearly didn't read the examples I gave about the Falcon Dive, double kick, backflip kick, and grabs.
"surprise attacks which are what?" Once again, read my post thoroughly. His up air (backflip kick) is quick and powerful, his back air is a surprising punch, the Falcon Dive meteor, etc.
Fighting an enemy with projectiles is the same as using other characters like Ike, Marth, and Donkey Kong. Jump around lots, air/ground dodge when necessary, and roll. You'll have to change to a more defensive combat way to go up against projectiles. It's really not as bad as you make it out to be. On a stage like Final Destination, two double jumps can get you very close to where you want to be. But at the same time, it's essential that you don't land right in front of your enemy so that they can knock you out. Dodging is key and timing necessary. As I said before, it's the same with other characters who don't have projectiles.
And me arguing with you about Falcon not being the worst has absolutely nothing to do with tiers being valid. That statement you made is completely false and makes absolutely no sense. I'm saying Captain Falcon has his strengths and weaknesses just like any other character.
Dark_Link142
Falcon definately has his strengths and weaknesses and from your post it looks like you play him pretty well, so you should be wanting a tier list more than anyone. Falcon is clearly outmatched by many other characters (see my tier list page 2), which is probably why he has been preforming horribly in recent tournaments (of the 25 or so bigger summer tournaments he has only placed in the top 8 twice, this is worse than any other character), I would think the people who play the hit an run style you discribe have definately switched to pikachu. if there was a tier list falcon could have fair fights at do much better in tournaments and the skill of many falcon players could be better recognized instead of them fighting and losing impossible matches against MK and Snake.
[QUOTE="andrewham7"][QUOTE="TwilightSoilder"] How is Game and Watch top tier and King Dedede very high? O_0 There are also many other flaws with that list but there are to many and I don't feel like listing them. Other than that, nice list. Ike players got owned. XDtoadster101
Game and Watch is amazing!! he is defenitely a top tier character, and if you dont believe it, u can play me and find out why
also, DDD owns
This. Game & Watch has the best encounter in the game.
I'll let that go given that list isn't official. But come on, how is Dedede that good? He is slower than Ike and is a huge target, how is he that high on the list?[QUOTE="toadster101"][QUOTE="andrewham7"][QUOTE="TwilightSoilder"] How is Game and Watch top tier and King Dedede very high? O_0 There are also many other flaws with that list but there are to many and I don't feel like listing them. Other than that, nice list. Ike players got owned. XDTwilightSoilder
Game and Watch is amazing!! he is defenitely a top tier character, and if you dont believe it, u can play me and find out why
also, DDD owns
This. Game & Watch has the best encounter in the game.
I'll let that go given that list isn't official. But come on, how is Dedede that good? He is slower than Ike and is a huge target, how is he that high on the list?DDD is slow but it's fairly reasonable why he is high. He's one of the heaviest characters in the game, keeping him alive for quite a while. Has a pretty damn good recovery. Can keep most character's at bay with his side b. Utilt is fast and powerful. dtilt is quick too. smashes are slow but can be good for mindgames (i.e, charging it, making the opponent think you're done with the attack, you approch only to be hit by it). He has a decent air game, and finally, his chain grabbing owns.
Hit and run isn't effective for falcon because he can be punished quite easily due to, again, low priority. how can he pull off this hit and run tactic when he has a horrible approching method? other character's have bigger hitboxes that can pierce through his attacks before he can even pull them off. also, faking out can be performed by any character. mind games exist for every character not just falcon. another thing, how else are are you supposed to use falcon other than in close range? you can't possibly tell me he can attack from a good distance without being predictable. his moves have startup and ending lag.
the thing about enemies with projectiles is that you can't dodge them all damn day. you have to approch at some point to KO them, something falcon is not good at because of, again, low priority and other horrible flaws that crippled what was once an amazing combo machine in melee. his uair is incredibly hard to land and really doesnt;t have knockback. you give it way too much credit.
the thing about falcon is that he has far too many weakness compared to other characters. that is what makes him worse than others. he doesn't have as many advatanges as other characters. if you honestly believe that marth=falcon or snake=falcon then all i can say is you really don't understand brawl's competitive nature. Fighting games can never be truly balanced, if they were then that would mean every single character in the game has the same moveset, priority, range, speed, weight, KOing potential, which really is not the case in brawl whatsoever.
Sonick54
I'm not saying Brawl is perfectly balanced either. I didn't say Marth=Falcon. And I never even mentioned Snake. You're putting words into my mouth
I'm saying that you can't create tier lists and call them fact. Putting characters like Snake at the top and Falcon at the bottom means that Falcon always loses right? Wrong. Different playstyles means different results. Once again, it's all about the playstyles.
When projectiles are used, it's true you can't dodge them all day. That's why I said land close to them. That way you can charge them with Falcon's speed or jump and attack them from above with his good air attacks.
Of course faking out people should be used with every other character but it's emphasized with Falcon.
I give much credit to Falcon's up air because it's very effective and quick. It's easy to land and has plenty of KO potential. If you manage to only skim the enemy, this gives you a chance to jump and try it again because it's quick and has fast recovery.
"how else are are you supposed to use falcon other than in close range?" You don't. Close range is the only thing he can do. He doesn't have projectiles :|. What I'm saying is that you can't go directly up against an opponent. Once again, you have to hit and run. He's got a fast roll with instant recovery and with the second fastest running speed along with a good jumping height and fast falling speed, it's not hard to approach an enemy who's using projectiles.
"his moves have startup and ending lag" MOST of his moves. I don't think you're reading my posts very well. I told you about his moves that don't have startup and ending lag. Of course, the majority of his moves do have lag. That's why you use the quicker moves to build up damage and use the moves with lag to fake and delay opponents.
[QUOTE="firefox59"][QUOTE="toadster101"][QUOTE="Dark_Link142"]It depends on how you play.
Tier lists are just opinions.
toadster101
Not really.
This should give you a general idea where most characters place on any reasonable tier list:
Top Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
Very High Tier:
Falco
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Wario
Olimar
Donkey Kong
Lucario
High Tier:
Wolf
Pit
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Toon Link
Kirby
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Mid Tier:
Fox
Lucas
Ness
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Low Tier:
lke
Peach
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Bowser
Link
Bottom Tier:
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Samus
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Explain why, pl0x.
I just don't agree with that list on many accounts.[QUOTE="TwilightSoilder"][QUOTE="toadster101"][QUOTE="andrewham7"][QUOTE="TwilightSoilder"] How is Game and Watch top tier and King Dedede very high? O_0 There are also many other flaws with that list but there are to many and I don't feel like listing them. Other than that, nice list. Ike players got owned. XDSonick54
Game and Watch is amazing!! he is defenitely a top tier character, and if you dont believe it, u can play me and find out why
also, DDD owns
This. Game & Watch has the best encounter in the game.
I'll let that go given that list isn't official. But come on, how is Dedede that good? He is slower than Ike and is a huge target, how is he that high on the list?DDD is slow but it's fairly reasonable why he is high. He's one of the heaviest characters in the game, keeping him alive for quite a while. Has a pretty damn good recovery. Can keep most character's at bay with his side b. Utilt is fast and powerful. dtilt is quick too. smashes are slow but can be good for mindgames (i.e, charging it, making the opponent think you're done with the attack, you approch only to be hit by it). He has a decent air game, and finally, his chain grabbing owns.
His recovery is also very perdictable. You wouldn't happen to have any tournament vids that actually prove what you're talking about, do ya? I would actually love to see it for myself.:)[QUOTE="Sonick54"]Hit and run isn't effective for falcon because he can be punished quite easily due to, again, low priority. how can he pull off this hit and run tactic when he has a horrible approching method? other character's have bigger hitboxes that can pierce through his attacks before he can even pull them off. also, faking out can be performed by any character. mind games exist for every character not just falcon. another thing, how else are are you supposed to use falcon other than in close range? you can't possibly tell me he can attack from a good distance without being predictable. his moves have startup and ending lag.
the thing about enemies with projectiles is that you can't dodge them all damn day. you have to approch at some point to KO them, something falcon is not good at because of, again, low priority and other horrible flaws that crippled what was once an amazing combo machine in melee. his uair is incredibly hard to land and really doesnt;t have knockback. you give it way too much credit.
the thing about falcon is that he has far too many weakness compared to other characters. that is what makes him worse than others. he doesn't have as many advatanges as other characters. if you honestly believe that marth=falcon or snake=falcon then all i can say is you really don't understand brawl's competitive nature. Fighting games can never be truly balanced, if they were then that would mean every single character in the game has the same moveset, priority, range, speed, weight, KOing potential, which really is not the case in brawl whatsoever.
Dark_Link142
I'm not saying Brawl is perfectly balanced either. I didn't say Marth=Falcon. And I never even mentioned Snake. You're putting words into my mouth
I'm saying that you can't create tier lists and call them fact. Putting characters like Snake at the top and Falcon at the bottom means that Falcon always loses right? Wrong. Different playstyles means different results. Once again, it's all about the playstyles.
When projectiles are used, it's true you can't dodge them all day. That's why I said land close to them. That way you can charge them with Falcon's speed or jump and attack them from above with his good air attacks.
Of course faking out people should be used with every other character but it's emphasized with Falcon.
I give much credit to Falcon's up air because it's very effective and quick. It's easy to land and has plenty of KO potential. If you manage to only skim the enemy, this gives you a chance to jump and try it again because it's quick and has fast recovery.
"how else are are you supposed to use falcon other than in close range?" You don't. Close range is the only thing he can do. He doesn't have projectiles :|. What I'm saying is that you can't go directly up against an opponent. Once again, you have to hit and run. He's got a fast roll with instant recovery and with the second fastest running speed along with a good jumping height and fast falling speed, it's not hard to approach an enemy who's using projectiles.
"his moves have startup and ending lag" MOST of his moves. I don't think you're reading my posts very well. I told you about his moves that don't have startup and ending lag. Of course, the majority of his moves do have lag. That's why you use the quicker moves to build up damage and use the moves with lag to fake and delay opponents.
You clearly don't know the definiton of tiers then don't you? Where has it EVER been said tiers dictate the outcome of a match? All tiers show is who has better standings in tournaments, matchup probabilities and the character's overall abilities. Never have tiers been a way to say that playing falcon meant you'll lose to snake. that's not the point, tiers are here to show who is genuily the better character when two people of equal skill face each other. i'm sorry if you don't want to believe this but there will always be better characters than others in fighting games. that's how it will always be. accept that fact or not. Tiers will always exist. However, there can never be a final final tier list because the metagame can change. The ones made now are just early frabications. They can change later on. Fact still remains that one will always exist though. Currently, falcon is considered the worst character and frankly, that doesn't look to be changing anytime soon. It doesn't matter if you're amazing with him,that's great. However, that doesn't change the fact many acknowledge him to be horrible. If you used him in melee you'd know he's been nerfed pretty damn badly.
The thing about brawl now though is that it's much harder to win with a low tierd character because of characters like snake and MK. They win most tournaments for a reason and their abilities back up those victories. In melee, you had a fairly better chance because every character could l cancel, wavedash, pivot, dashdance, ect.
Again, i'm not saying it's impossible, it's just that the chances are lower for you is all. You keep saying tier lists are just opinions yet i've told you that many things factor in as to why a character is better than another. It's not an opinion that snake's u tilt is disjointed and powerful. it's not an opinion that sonic has barely noticable kill moves other than his fsmash , bair and ^b+uair. These are things competitive players study in order to place characters on the tier list. It's not just shouting "lulz, mario>peach" there, tier list made. That's not how it works.
This thread is kinda ridiculous...
Any character in Brawl can beat any other character; that's how the game works...
[QUOTE="Dark_Link142"][QUOTE="Sonick54"]Hit and run isn't effective for falcon because he can be punished quite easily due to, again, low priority. how can he pull off this hit and run tactic when he has a horrible approching method? other character's have bigger hitboxes that can pierce through his attacks before he can even pull them off. also, faking out can be performed by any character. mind games exist for every character not just falcon. another thing, how else are are you supposed to use falcon other than in close range? you can't possibly tell me he can attack from a good distance without being predictable. his moves have startup and ending lag.
the thing about enemies with projectiles is that you can't dodge them all damn day. you have to approch at some point to KO them, something falcon is not good at because of, again, low priority and other horrible flaws that crippled what was once an amazing combo machine in melee. his uair is incredibly hard to land and really doesnt;t have knockback. you give it way too much credit.
the thing about falcon is that he has far too many weakness compared to other characters. that is what makes him worse than others. he doesn't have as many advatanges as other characters. if you honestly believe that marth=falcon or snake=falcon then all i can say is you really don't understand brawl's competitive nature. Fighting games can never be truly balanced, if they were then that would mean every single character in the game has the same moveset, priority, range, speed, weight, KOing potential, which really is not the case in brawl whatsoever.
Sonick54
I'm not saying Brawl is perfectly balanced either. I didn't say Marth=Falcon. And I never even mentioned Snake. You're putting words into my mouth
I'm saying that you can't create tier lists and call them fact. Putting characters like Snake at the top and Falcon at the bottom means that Falcon always loses right? Wrong. Different playstyles means different results. Once again, it's all about the playstyles.
When projectiles are used, it's true you can't dodge them all day. That's why I said land close to them. That way you can charge them with Falcon's speed or jump and attack them from above with his good air attacks.
Of course faking out people should be used with every other character but it's emphasized with Falcon.
I give much credit to Falcon's up air because it's very effective and quick. It's easy to land and has plenty of KO potential. If you manage to only skim the enemy, this gives you a chance to jump and try it again because it's quick and has fast recovery.
"how else are are you supposed to use falcon other than in close range?" You don't. Close range is the only thing he can do. He doesn't have projectiles :|. What I'm saying is that you can't go directly up against an opponent. Once again, you have to hit and run. He's got a fast roll with instant recovery and with the second fastest running speed along with a good jumping height and fast falling speed, it's not hard to approach an enemy who's using projectiles.
"his moves have startup and ending lag" MOST of his moves. I don't think you're reading my posts very well. I told you about his moves that don't have startup and ending lag. Of course, the majority of his moves do have lag. That's why you use the quicker moves to build up damage and use the moves with lag to fake and delay opponents.
You clearly don't know the definiton of tiers then don't you? Where has it EVER been said tiers dictate the outcome of a match? All tiers show is who has better standings in tournaments, matchup probabilities and the character's overall abilities. Never have tiers been a way to say that playing falcon meant you'll lose to snake. that's not the point, tiers are here to show who is genuily the better character when two people of equal skill face each other. i'm sorry if you don't want to believe this but there will always be better characters than others in fighting games. that's how it will always be. accept that fact or not. Tiers will always exist. However, there can never be a final final tier list because the metagame can change. The ones made now are just early frabications. They can change later on. Fact still remains that one will always exist though. Currently, falcon is considered the worst character and frankly, that doesn't look to be changing anytime soon. It doesn't matter if you're amazing with him,that's great. However, that doesn't change the fact many acknowledge him to be horrible. If you used him in melee you'd know he's been nerfed pretty damn badly.
The thing about brawl now though is that it's much harder to win with a low tierd character because of characters like snake and MK. They win most tournaments for a reason and their abilities back up those victories. In melee, you had a fairly better chance because every character could l cancel, wavedash, pivot, dashdance, ect.
Again, i'm not saying it's impossible, it's just that the chances are lower for you is all. You keep saying tier lists are just opinions yet i've told you that many things factor in as to why a character is better than another. It's not an opinion that snake's u tilt is disjointed and powerful. it's not an opinion that sonic has barely noticable kill moves other than his fsmash , bair and ^b+uair. These are things competitive players study in order to place characters on the tier list. It's not just shouting "lulz, mario>peach" there, tier list made. That's not how it works.
People have said that tier lists are fact :|. A few people have even said that in this thread. That's why I disagree about tier lists. Then you butted in, called me ignorant, and told me to come up with facts that Falcon doesn't suck.
I understand that the game isn't perfectly balanced as I mentioned before. I understand that some characters can exploit other characters' weaknesses and that Falcon has the easiest to defeat weaknesses but that's what makes him hard to master. But I refer back to my original statement that it's the playstyles that count.
I understand how tier lists are made but I still believe they are opinion. You even said yourself that they will continue to change.
[QUOTE="Sonick54"][QUOTE="Dark_Link142"][QUOTE="Sonick54"]Hit and run isn't effective for falcon because he can be punished quite easily due to, again, low priority. how can he pull off this hit and run tactic when he has a horrible approching method? other character's have bigger hitboxes that can pierce through his attacks before he can even pull them off. also, faking out can be performed by any character. mind games exist for every character not just falcon. another thing, how else are are you supposed to use falcon other than in close range? you can't possibly tell me he can attack from a good distance without being predictable. his moves have startup and ending lag.
the thing about enemies with projectiles is that you can't dodge them all damn day. you have to approch at some point to KO them, something falcon is not good at because of, again, low priority and other horrible flaws that crippled what was once an amazing combo machine in melee. his uair is incredibly hard to land and really doesnt;t have knockback. you give it way too much credit.
the thing about falcon is that he has far too many weakness compared to other characters. that is what makes him worse than others. he doesn't have as many advatanges as other characters. if you honestly believe that marth=falcon or snake=falcon then all i can say is you really don't understand brawl's competitive nature. Fighting games can never be truly balanced, if they were then that would mean every single character in the game has the same moveset, priority, range, speed, weight, KOing potential, which really is not the case in brawl whatsoever.
Dark_Link142
I'm not saying Brawl is perfectly balanced either. I didn't say Marth=Falcon. And I never even mentioned Snake. You're putting words into my mouth
I'm saying that you can't create tier lists and call them fact. Putting characters like Snake at the top and Falcon at the bottom means that Falcon always loses right? Wrong. Different playstyles means different results. Once again, it's all about the playstyles.
When projectiles are used, it's true you can't dodge them all day. That's why I said land close to them. That way you can charge them with Falcon's speed or jump and attack them from above with his good air attacks.
Of course faking out people should be used with every other character but it's emphasized with Falcon.
I give much credit to Falcon's up air because it's very effective and quick. It's easy to land and has plenty of KO potential. If you manage to only skim the enemy, this gives you a chance to jump and try it again because it's quick and has fast recovery.
"how else are are you supposed to use falcon other than in close range?" You don't. Close range is the only thing he can do. He doesn't have projectiles :|. What I'm saying is that you can't go directly up against an opponent. Once again, you have to hit and run. He's got a fast roll with instant recovery and with the second fastest running speed along with a good jumping height and fast falling speed, it's not hard to approach an enemy who's using projectiles.
"his moves have startup and ending lag" MOST of his moves. I don't think you're reading my posts very well. I told you about his moves that don't have startup and ending lag. Of course, the majority of his moves do have lag. That's why you use the quicker moves to build up damage and use the moves with lag to fake and delay opponents.
You clearly don't know the definiton of tiers then don't you? Where has it EVER been said tiers dictate the outcome of a match? All tiers show is who has better standings in tournaments, matchup probabilities and the character's overall abilities. Never have tiers been a way to say that playing falcon meant you'll lose to snake. that's not the point, tiers are here to show who is genuily the better character when two people of equal skill face each other. i'm sorry if you don't want to believe this but there will always be better characters than others in fighting games. that's how it will always be. accept that fact or not. Tiers will always exist. However, there can never be a final final tier list because the metagame can change. The ones made now are just early frabications. They can change later on. Fact still remains that one will always exist though. Currently, falcon is considered the worst character and frankly, that doesn't look to be changing anytime soon. It doesn't matter if you're amazing with him,that's great. However, that doesn't change the fact many acknowledge him to be horrible. If you used him in melee you'd know he's been nerfed pretty damn badly.
The thing about brawl now though is that it's much harder to win with a low tierd character because of characters like snake and MK. They win most tournaments for a reason and their abilities back up those victories. In melee, you had a fairly better chance because every character could l cancel, wavedash, pivot, dashdance, ect.
Again, i'm not saying it's impossible, it's just that the chances are lower for you is all. You keep saying tier lists are just opinions yet i've told you that many things factor in as to why a character is better than another. It's not an opinion that snake's u tilt is disjointed and powerful. it's not an opinion that sonic has barely noticable kill moves other than his fsmash , bair and ^b+uair. These are things competitive players study in order to place characters on the tier list. It's not just shouting "lulz, mario>peach" there, tier list made. That's not how it works.
People have said that tier lists are fact :|. A few people have even said that in this thread. That's why I disagree about tier lists. Then you butted in, called me ignorant, and told me to come up with facts that Falcon doesn't suck.
I understand that the game isn't perfectly balanced as I mentioned before. I understand that some characters can exploit other characters' weaknesses and that Falcon has the easiest to defeat weaknesses but that's what makes him hard to master. But I refer back to my original statement that it's the playstyles that count.
I understand how tier lists are made but I still believe they are opinion. You even said yourself that they will continue to change.
So because they sometimes change, it means they don't exist or aren't true statistics? That makes no sense.
Why aren't they facts though? I just told you they don't dictate a match. Tiers prove the fact that one character is better than another. It does not prove that you can't win with a lower tierd character. Stop getting them mixed up here.
I'm sorry about the ignorant comment though . Guess i got caught up in the argument :?
So because they sometimes change, it means they don't exist or aren't true statistics? That makes no sense.
Why aren't they facts though? I just told you they don't dictate a match. Tiers prove the fact that one character is better than another. It does not prove that you can't win with a lower tierd character. Stop getting them mixed up here.
I'm sorry about the ignorant comment though . Guess i got caught up in the argument :?
Sonick54
"Why aren't they facts though?" Because they change quite a bit. A fact is something that's definite.
"Tiers prove the fact that one character is better than another. It does not prove that you can't win with a lower tierd character."
I just said that. "I understand that some characters can exploit other characters' weaknesses..."
And it's ok about the ignorant comment :P.
[QUOTE="Sonick54"]So because they sometimes change, it means they don't exist or aren't true statistics? That makes no sense.
Why aren't they facts though? I just told you they don't dictate a match. Tiers prove the fact that one character is better than another. It does not prove that you can't win with a lower tierd character. Stop getting them mixed up here.
I'm sorry about the ignorant comment though . Guess i got caught up in the argument :?
Dark_Link142
"Why aren't they facts though?" Because they change quite a bit. A fact is something that's definite.
"Tiers prove the fact that one character is better than another. It does not prove that you can't win with a lower tierd character."
I just said that. "I understand that some characters can exploit other characters' weaknesses..."
And it's ok about the ignorant comment :P.
that's a relief XD
but ya, i don't usually resort to name calling. Got to work on that :P
[QUOTE="Dark_Link142"][QUOTE="Sonick54"]So because they sometimes change, it means they don't exist or aren't true statistics? That makes no sense.
Why aren't they facts though? I just told you they don't dictate a match. Tiers prove the fact that one character is better than another. It does not prove that you can't win with a lower tierd character. Stop getting them mixed up here.
I'm sorry about the ignorant comment though . Guess i got caught up in the argument :?
Sonick54
"Why aren't they facts though?" Because they change quite a bit. A fact is something that's definite.
"Tiers prove the fact that one character is better than another. It does not prove that you can't win with a lower tierd character."
I just said that. "I understand that some characters can exploit other characters' weaknesses..."
And it's ok about the ignorant comment :P.
that's a relief XD
but ya, i don't usually resort to name calling. Got to work on that :P
So...problem solved?
[QUOTE="Sonick54"][QUOTE="Dark_Link142"][QUOTE="Sonick54"]So because they sometimes change, it means they don't exist or aren't true statistics? That makes no sense.
Why aren't they facts though? I just told you they don't dictate a match. Tiers prove the fact that one character is better than another. It does not prove that you can't win with a lower tierd character. Stop getting them mixed up here.
I'm sorry about the ignorant comment though . Guess i got caught up in the argument :?
Dark_Link142
"Why aren't they facts though?" Because they change quite a bit. A fact is something that's definite.
"Tiers prove the fact that one character is better than another. It does not prove that you can't win with a lower tierd character."
I just said that. "I understand that some characters can exploit other characters' weaknesses..."
And it's ok about the ignorant comment :P.
that's a relief XD
but ya, i don't usually resort to name calling. Got to work on that :P
So...problem solved?
i believe so >_>
Putting characters like Snake at the top and Falcon at the bottom means that Falcon always loses right? Dark_Link142
Being on the very bottom doesn't mean you lose every fight. It just means they are the absolute hardest characters to use against the higher one's which still doesn't mean losing all the time.
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