It brings tears of joy to my eyes

my god, whats wrong with everyone? TP was a great game just like WW AND Oot, and MM, and pretty much every other zelda, yes i will admit it diddnt really do enything new it was still a bloody good game. just enjoy it, and have fun with it for what it is a another great zelda game.......and i liked playing as wolf linklegend26

[QUOTE="legend26"]my god, whats wrong with everyone? TP was a great game just like WW AND Oot, and MM, and pretty much every other zelda, yes i will admit it diddnt really do enything new it was still a bloody good game. just enjoy it, and have fun with it for what it is a another great zelda game.......and i liked playing as wolf linkHaziqonfire

[QUOTE="Haziqonfire"][QUOTE="legend26"]my god, whats wrong with everyone? TP was a great game just like WW AND Oot, and MM, and pretty much every other zelda, yes i will admit it diddnt really do enything new it was still a bloody good game. just enjoy it, and have fun with it for what it is a another great zelda game.......and i liked playing as wolf linklegend26

No, we expect a minimum of wow factor that TP didn't deliver. And that's since the original Zelda, for the record.

[QUOTE="legend26"][QUOTE="Haziqonfire"][QUOTE="legend26"]my god, whats wrong with everyone? TP was a great game just like WW AND Oot, and MM, and pretty much every other zelda, yes i will admit it diddnt really do enything new it was still a bloody good game. just enjoy it, and have fun with it for what it is a another great zelda game.......and i liked playing as wolf linkWintry_Flutist

No, we expect a minimum of wow factor that TP didn't deliver. And that's since the original Zelda, for the record.

[QUOTE="MaceKhan"]

Interesting points, what your saying is you don't consider TP to be as great as it could have been and that detracts from the game-play experience for you. But, what ozzsoad is saying is that even though TP didn't really do that many "new" things the things it did do were very well done, and for that, he enjoyed the game (at least that's how I translate it so far). And I've made an observation, you are very fond of saying that people overlook things, yet (imo) you overlook the fact that TP refined a few things to near perfection, things like the "lock on" system, you now automatically switch targets when you finish killing an enemy, and the combat system, I definitely prefer TP's hidden skills to WW's parry system (even though I do enjoy WW's parry system). I wish the enemies were more challenging so that these improvements were better utilized.

Oh, and to people who say we should stop arguing we enjoy arguing our points.

Wintry_Flutist

Something like this new lock on system can be done "en passant", but is far from enough to move action/adventure forward. The recurrent elements of Zelda are supposed to be more polished every new game, but what about new stuff?

People seem to love to say "if you look at it no Zelda actually innovates!!!11!", but let's be honest here, no one can say every Zelda relied solely on what ALttP did (actually it didn't do anything much different than the original Zelda, so I don't see why ozzsoad wants to divide the series in before and after ALttP, OoT is a much more valid twist point). And as I keep reminding (or trying to remind) people, when TP was announced, Nintendo had solid plans to introduce a lot of fresh ideas in the game: for instance, animal interaction was going to be the main theme.

As we know, this didn't happen, Nintendo actually even started to compare TP to OoT too much, every goal was set accordingly to OoT: TP had to be bigger than OoT, it had to feature more dungeons, more items, etc. No one can deny it, Nintendo suddenly wanted TP to be like OoT (= they wanted to push Wii sales). Why they still kept a few elements of the original concept, I can't really know, but it strongly feels like they needed something to say TP was new...

[QUOTE="gdorf101"]

Easily impressed because when comparing two things I can see a difference..? Nice, attack me instead of the argument. Very mature. TP wasn't the most epic game in the world, and did not have the best storyline ever, but COMPARED to OoT, it was MUCH greater in those elements. I'm not just talking about the kids. The kids were only in the game for the first third or so of the game, if even that. I'm surprised you can say I'm easily impressed, when you're the one trying to defend WW over TP, which is well, even less than OoT in every element except for gameplay...

Wintry_Flutist

I expected you not to take that as an insult (as I tried to 'counterweight' my comment by saying you'll enjoy more things than me), but since you want to argue...

I rather have "no story" like OoT (a game that is nowhere supposed to feature a story, yet have enough of it to balance the overall achievement) than a weak story like in TP. I don't know what went through the staff mind when they came up with that, it's like they want to be taken seriously and deliver something memorable, but the characters are bland and the plot has no direction whatsoever. As far as storytelling in gaming goes, one has to have played very few games to accept what TP proposed as a "story".

I don't know why bring Wind Waker here, specially if you don't bring something better than "it's even less than OoT".

I fail to see how saying that "I'll enjoy more things than you," in the context of me "being easily impressed" and "impressed" with something that you clearly find unimpressive nonetheless, can be construed as not an insult.. It's basically declaring my naiivety, as if I were an uncultured child that doesn't know what truly constitutes as good and is, well, "easily impressed." If, as you say, it was not meant as such, then I apologize for taking it as such. You may want to be more careful with your words though.. in another post on this forum you mention that people misread your posts of "flaws" as "TP a bad game".. but then continue to say how TP is entirely "bland," and comparison of other Zelda games as such is an atrocity?

And again, to say that somebody has to have played very little games to take what TP proposed as a "story"? How is that not an insult? Stories are one of the greatest things about video games. You might as well just play tetris or brain age if you don't think so (good games, but nowhere near the levels of FF, etc). TP was no weaker than any of the other Zelda games, and I feel like it was even stronger than most of them. If you ask me, that's a step forward in the right direction. If you really would rather have no story, then that's fine for you, but for me, I like to have my brain tickled and teased, with dimensions of humanity and literature, rather than just puzzles and problem solving. I don't feel like TP's story was anything special, but the way they told it was certainly well done.

As for WW, I brought that up because the thread was about comparing WW to TP and how WW was superior (A conjecture I disagree with). And when you come into the thread bashing TP, it's very natural to assume you are taking the position of the original thread maker. To be honest, I have no idea what you are saying in your last sentence, hahahah. I can take a guess, in that you're saying my argument is weak, and I shouldn't have brought up WW at all if all I am saying is that it is less than OoT in every dimension of gaming except for gameplay? You even said yourself that OoT had a "no story." So how is that argument weak? If WW has a weaker story than OoT, worse storytelling, more cliche's and more shallow characters than even OoT, then WW has to be pretty bad in those areas. I don't even know why I'm arguing this with you, since you basically argued against yourself! Saying OoT has no story, and then saying that TP had a story, but you rather it not have had one? I'm just gonna stop responding to these, since your arguments are made without any evidence presented and with nothing but hate behind them. You seem like you'd just hate any game you play, and love to hate them.

[QUOTE="Wintry_Flutist"]

[QUOTE="legend26"][QUOTE="Haziqonfire"][QUOTE="legend26"]my god, whats wrong with everyone? TP was a great game just like WW AND Oot, and MM, and pretty much every other zelda, yes i will admit it diddnt really do enything new it was still a bloody good game. just enjoy it, and have fun with it for what it is a another great zelda game.......and i liked playing as wolf linklegend26

No, we expect a minimum of wow factor that TP didn't deliver. And that's since the original Zelda, for the record.

I'd do what Nintendo was going to do: making it able to actually interact with animals. Pf, talking with frogs and ducks is far from it... Also, giving him abilities never seen in Zelda (everything he did was done by the Shovel, the Lens, the Hookshot, Din's Fire), and maybe even exclusive items for the wolf (kinda like some items had new uses on the boat in WW, but more fleshed out) to expand his abilities.

I other words, make the Wolf as useful among animals as Link is among humans.

I fail to see how saying that "I'll enjoy more things than you," in the context of me "being easily impressed" and "impressed" with something that you clearly find unimpressive nonetheless, can be construed as not an insult.. It's basically declaring my naiivety, as if I were an uncultured child that doesn't know what truly constitutes as good and is, well, "easily impressed." If, as you say, it was not meant as such, then I apologize for taking it as such. You may want to be more careful with your words though.. in another post on this forum you mention that people misread your posts of "flaws" as "TP a bad game".. but then continue to say how TP is entirely "bland," and comparison of other Zelda games as such is an atrocity?

And again, to say that somebody has to have played very little games to take what TP proposed as a "story"? How is that not an insult? Stories are one of the greatest things about video games. You might as well just play tetris or brain age if you don't think so (good games, but nowhere near the levels of FF, etc). TP was no weaker than any of the other Zelda games, and I feel like it was even stronger than most of them. If you ask me, that's a step forward in the right direction. If you really would rather have no story, then that's fine for you, but for me, I like to have my brain tickled and teased, with dimensions of humanity and literature, rather than just puzzles and problem solving. I don't feel like TP's story was anything special, but the way they told it was certainly well done.

As for WW, I brought that up because the thread was about comparing WW to TP and how WW was superior (A conjecture I disagree with). And when you come into the thread bashing TP, it's very natural to assume you are taking the position of the original thread maker. To be honest, I have no idea what you are saying in your last sentence, hahahah. I can take a guess, in that you're saying my argument is weak, and I shouldn't have brought up WW at all if all I am saying is that it is less than OoT in every dimension of gaming except for gameplay? You even said yourself that OoT had a "no story." So how is that argument weak? If WW has a weaker story than OoT, worse storytelling, more cliche's and more shallow characters than even OoT, then WW has to be pretty bad in those areas. I don't even know why I'm arguing this with you, since you basically argued against yourself! Saying OoT has no story, and then saying that TP had a story, but you rather it not have had one? I'm just gonna stop responding to these, since your arguments are made without any evidence presented and with nothing but hate behind them. You seem like you'd just hate any game you play, and love to hate them.

gdorf101

It isn't an insult because playing games is not what makes someone better.

Clear up the post so I can answer the rest of it.

I thought Twilight Princess was amazing

I'm sorry to hear you didn't? :|

Erebyssial

I loved Tp. Wind Waker was great too but Tp was just better to me. It all is up to opion.

[QUOTE="Haziqonfire"]All twilight princess did was keep the series where it is. It didnt move it forward like any of the other zelda's did. Adding the wolf was pretty boring since the wolf gameplay sucked.
ozzsoad

How did Ocarina of Time move the series forward? What about Majora's Mask or Wind Waker, how did those games or any other titles in the series move anything forward? Tell me. What did you want this game to be? The only game to move the series forward was A Link to the Past. Things have been the same ever since when it comes to the structure of the games, nothing has changed.

The wolf didn't suck, it actually made the game better to me and gave it a twist.

First off, I loved all Zelda games to date...well, except the one on Phillips CD-i which doesn't really count.

For WW, I loved the new art direction and the fact that, at the core, it was still Zelda. But I also felt the game needed more dungeons and a lot less sailing around looking for Triforce pieces. (They should have did a throwback to the original Zelda with that idea and made you go through a dungeon to find each of them). The "survival" mode they threw in there wasn't enough to satiate my desire to go through complex dungeons and fight more monsters.

For TP, my main issue was what many have said, even with the wolf and Twilight realms, it felt too much like OoT. It's not a bad thing, but in the end I can't say I found the game as satisfying as previous Zelda games. Even though some of the boss fights were truly epic (if too easy), the final battle with Ganondorf [spoiler] I mean after fighting the mesmerized Zelda and Ganon [/spoiler] was pretty underwhelming.

Overall though, I'd have to say I had a more entertaining time with TP than I did with WW, but WW was certainly the more innovative of the two. I do believe Nintendo needs to push Zelda forward from both a gameplay and an immersion perspective to catch up with the way games flow in modern times. In too many ways (with Zelda), Nintendo sticks to what has worked in the past and doesn't take many risks anymore. I'd love it if Nintendo toyed with the Zelda formula the way Square has toyed with Final Fantasy's battle and customization systems.

[QUOTE="legend26"]my god, whats wrong with everyone? TP was a great game just like WW AND Oot, and MM, and pretty much every other zelda, yes i will admit it diddnt really do enything new it was still a bloody good game. just enjoy it, and have fun with it for what it is a another great zelda game.......and i liked playing as wolf linkHaziqonfire

It is a Zelda game and it is good. That makes it a great Zelda game and better than WW.

I couldn't get myself to finish WW I couldn't get into it. Sorry.TheAcejoel99

I pardon you.

Wind waker is good but seriously man... laughing in Twilight Princesses face saying Windwaker is better just by a lead of 1 point?

Wind Waker wasn't as good as Twilight Princess.

[QUOTE="TheAcejoel99"]I couldn't get myself to finish WW I couldn't get into it. Sorry.Wintry_Flutist

I pardon you.

I wish I loved it as much as you guys. :*(

...to see that Wind Waker has a 1 point (should be tenfold) lead in Metacritic score tables compared to Twilight Princess.

Have you people no shame? Have you no respect of plot and dialogue? And who was the wise guy that decided to strip Ganondorf of a personality?

Man, people are rating Twilight Princess so high just because they had been expecting a realistic looking Zelda so long. That title offers nothing new to the series. Just a remake of Ocarina of Time with widely improved graphics, lol.

Heinous-Uranus

I really don't understand what everyone is complaining about. Both games are excellent in their own right. Played both to death and loved them both the same.

They aren't really all that different from one another IMO. You're still a Hero that traverses a large overworld and dungeons, doing side quests and collecting items and weapons that will ultimately lead you to your final goals of rescuing a princess and ridding the land of Hyrule (or "The Great Sea", which is just Hyrule engulfed by water) of evil and darkness.

That may seem too vague a description for some people, but honestly, there hasn't been a truly drastic change in a Zelda game since ALttP to warrant a fuss.

Play and enjoy both cuz they're both great, timeless, adventure games!

"Press A to jump, but only when you're on a ledge (can I please jump whenever I want one of these days? Please? Rolling around isn't good enough)."

"Run around Hyrule and fight some bad guys. Forget about the fact that every time you leave an area and come back, those same bad guys are there. This place is magical. Yeah, that's it. It's magic."

"Find a dungeon. Enter it. Remember this formula, ok? You're going to do it like 10 more times."

"Put that bomb here, break open that crack in the wall"

"See that giant random block? Yeah, that one. The one that is obviously out of place, and is only there for only one reason. Yeah, push it around the room, it'll totally open a door if it's placed on a conveniently placed switch on the floor."

"Open this chest, it'll have some rupees that you can't even get because your pouch is full, so put them back in the chest because you're totally going to want to come back here again, right?"

"There seem to be puzzles you need to complete, but it would appear that in order to progress, you're going to need some new weapon or tool...."

"Once you find that new weapon or tool somewhere in the dungeon (probably in one of the chests, or dropped by a mini-boss), you will have to use it a few dozen times in said dungeon to progress. Then, make sure to hit the weak spot on the boss with your new weapon. It'll probably be easy to spot because there'll be a blinking arrow, or some obvious hole in the guy's armor. Midna might even give you a hint (or 20). Oh, then when you're done, make sure to hardly use that weapon for the rest of the game. Who cares? You've already got a sword and a shield, what more do you need? Besides, scrolling through all of your weapons to choose the 3 that you want is time-consuming and tedious. Better stick to the basics."

"Bombs+Arrows? Who would've guessed that those 2 would combine!?! Oh, wait, we did that already? Never mind."

"I got a bottle. I wonder what I could put in it....you'll never guess!!! Ooh, how exciting! I loooove mysterie...wait, what? Oh, a fairy? Oh, ok...just like the rest of the games? Ok."

"Hey, I got a piece of a heart. That's fun."

"Ok, now I've got like a hundred heart pieces...is this supposed to be a challenge?"

"That's weird, there's this giant boulder on this path, and it's in my way. I can't continue until I get by here...but it's weird, because this bag of bombs should do the trick...it seems like I could easily break through it, yet it won't let me. Hmm..."

"I hope you like playing through the same levels 2 or 3 times, oh, and backtracking, because this game is jam-packed with it! But, we swear, you won't notice because...you'll be a Wolf this time! Yeah, and...and it'll be, like, darker, and stuff! Problem solved..."

"Wait, what's that you say? You actually like sidequests? Umm...how about collecting some bugs for this weird chick with no parents? No? Ok, well, we've got fishing again. People seemed to like that before. It's got motion sensing now!!!"

________

Please note that I'm just poking fun here, no need to fanboy-out on me. I have a right to my opinion, and my opinion is hilarious!!!

But seriously, I just think it's time to change the formula. These new gameplay elements (the ocean/wind-manipulating in WW, Wolf-Link in TP, changing forms in MM, etc) are just gimmicks to make it seem like a different game, and it's getting old to me. I liked WW because it was just different enough to set it apart, but for the most part TP was a step backwards. A couple gameplay changes aren't enough to make me content anymore. I think that's why I really like Okami; that game is something that Zelda could never be.

But seriously, I just think it's time to change the formula. These new gameplay elements (the ocean/wind-manipulating in WW, Wolf-Link in TP, changing forms in MM, etc) are just gimmicks to make it seem like a different game, and it's getting old to me. I liked WW because it was just different enough to set it apart, but for the most part TP was a step backwards. A couple gameplay changes aren't enough to make me content anymore. I think that's why I really like Okami; that game is something that Zelda could never be.

bob_newman

But if Zelda was Okami, it wouldn't be Zelda. Simple as that. What you need, then, is to play other games than Zelda.

[QUOTE="bob_newman"]

But seriously, I just think it's time to change the formula. These new gameplay elements (the ocean/wind-manipulating in WW, Wolf-Link in TP, changing forms in MM, etc) are just gimmicks to make it seem like a different game, and it's getting old to me. I liked WW because it was just different enough to set it apart, but for the most part TP was a step backwards. A couple gameplay changes aren't enough to make me content anymore. I think that's why I really like Okami; that game is something that Zelda could never be.

Wintry_Flutist

But if Zelda was Okami, it wouldn't be Zelda. Simple as that. What you need, then, is to play other games than Zelda.

You don't get it. I like Zelda, but they've done the same thing over 10 times now, with minor gameplay changes. They can take it somewhere else, but they're stuck in the past.

New puzzles that we don't already know the solution to before we even step into the dungeon is a simple gameplay change that will create a fun, unique experience. I'm tired of the same block-pushing technique, and it's so easy to create new puzzles. Look at Zack and Wiki (or any point-and-click adventure game, really).

[QUOTE="bob_newman"]

But seriously, I just think it's time to change the formula. These new gameplay elements (the ocean/wind-manipulating in WW, Wolf-Link in TP, changing forms in MM, etc) are just gimmicks to make it seem like a different game, and it's getting old to me. I liked WW because it was just different enough to set it apart, but for the most part TP was a step backwards. A couple gameplay changes aren't enough to make me content anymore. I think that's why I really like Okami; that game is something that Zelda could never be.

Wintry_Flutist

But if Zelda was Okami, it wouldn't be Zelda. Simple as that. What you need, then, is to play other games than Zelda.

[QUOTE="Wintry_Flutist"][QUOTE="bob_newman"]

But seriously, I just think it's time to change the formula. These new gameplay elements (the ocean/wind-manipulating in WW, Wolf-Link in TP, changing forms in MM, etc) are just gimmicks to make it seem like a different game, and it's getting old to me. I liked WW because it was just different enough to set it apart, but for the most part TP was a step backwards. A couple gameplay changes aren't enough to make me content anymore. I think that's why I really like Okami; that game is something that Zelda could never be.

MaceKhan

But if Zelda was Okami, it wouldn't be Zelda. Simple as that. What you need, then, is to play other games than Zelda.

Read my above post, please.

WW to me was boring just sailing around. The golden rings that would appear when sailing and dissapeer when you were close was kind of annoying as well. I think the sailing was a good idea, but it could've been better imo. Maybe it was because the most of the islands were so small.

It was graphically/gameplay wise a very very solid game. It had it's share of puzzles and enemies...but again to me...

The dungeons, just seemed kinda lame. I'm not sure if it was the art style, the music...I just can't put my finger on it what it was....but I didn't enjoy it to the fullest.

Not to mention...at that time...i was 16 or 17 yrs old, and I beat the game in a day and a half story wise. (not completely collecting everything). I had no urge to go back and get everything either due to the sailing.

When you had to (spoilers) ..

pay tingle to decipher the maps, that part seemed like it was just thrown in there to extend the game.

[QUOTE="MaceKhan"][QUOTE="Wintry_Flutist"][QUOTE="bob_newman"]

But seriously, I just think it's time to change the formula. These new gameplay elements (the ocean/wind-manipulating in WW, Wolf-Link in TP, changing forms in MM, etc) are just gimmicks to make it seem like a different game, and it's getting old to me. I liked WW because it was just different enough to set it apart, but for the most part TP was a step backwards. A couple gameplay changes aren't enough to make me content anymore. I think that's why I really like Okami; that game is something that Zelda could never be.

bob_newman

But if Zelda was Okami, it wouldn't be Zelda. Simple as that. What you need, then, is to play other games than Zelda.

Read my above post, please.

...to see that Wind Waker has a 1 point (should be tenfold) lead in Metacritic score tables compared to Twilight Princess.

Have you people no shame? Have you no respect of plot and dialogue? And who was the wise guy that decided to strip Ganondorf of a personality?

Man, people are rating Twilight Princess so high just because they had been expecting a realistic looking Zelda so long. That title offers nothing new to the series. Just a remake of Ocarina of Time with widely improved graphics, lol.

Heinous-Uranus

Oh rly, however i loved the game.

I want more remakes of the Zelda-formula, i want save Zelda, beat Ganon and collect heart-pieces again, again and again:D

I totally disagree with you. Being a Zelda fan, I hate Wind Waker with a passion. It's art style is terrible, the game looked very kiddy and the graphics were really a pain to watch. I dont't know if it is my TV or what, but I felt that my eyes bleeded after watching the game. Besides that, the story is not epic at all. It seems more a fable than a legend. The music was also really boring. I tried to enjoy it, but I couldn't find anything special about it. And the worst part of the entire game: the ocean. It was one of the worst experiences I've passed through in a videogame. I got to the point that I used to leave the controller there and come after a while to see if Link already reached it's destination.

Twilight Princess should be rated like 2.0 points above WW.

*puts flame shield on*

I totally disagree with you. Being a Zelda fan, I hate Wind Waker with a passion. It's art style is terrible, the game looked very kiddy and the graphics were really a pain to watch. I dont't know if it is my TV or what, but I felt that my eyes bleeded after watching the game. Besides that, the story is not epic at all. It seems more a fable than a legend. The music was also really boring. I tried to enjoy it, but I couldn't find anything special about it. And the worst part of the entire game: the ocean. It was one of the worst experiences I've passed through in a videogame. I got to the point that I used to leave the controller there and come after a while to see if Link already reached it's destination.

Twilight Princess should be rated like 2.0 points above WW.

*puts flame shield on*

Thiago26792

So you would rate TP 4/10, it seems.

[QUOTE="Thiago26792"]

I totally disagree with you. Being a Zelda fan, I hate Wind Waker with a passion. It's art style is terrible, the game looked very kiddy and the graphics were really a pain to watch. I dont't know if it is my TV or what, but I felt that my eyes bleeded after watching the game. Besides that, the story is not epic at all. It seems more a fable than a legend. The music was also really boring. I tried to enjoy it, but I couldn't find anything special about it. And the worst part of the entire game: the ocean. It was one of the worst experiences I've passed through in a videogame. I got to the point that I used to leave the controller there and come after a while to see if Link already reached it's destination.

Twilight Princess should be rated like 2.0 points above WW.

*puts flame shield on*

Wintry_Flutist

So you would rate TP 4/10, it seems.

Well, then WW should be 5.0 and TP 9.5.

[QUOTE="Wintry_Flutist"][QUOTE="Thiago26792"]

I totally disagree with you. Being a Zelda fan, I hate Wind Waker with a passion. It's art style is terrible, the game looked very kiddy and the graphics were really a pain to watch. I dont't know if it is my TV or what, but I felt that my eyes bleeded after watching the game. Besides that, the story is not epic at all. It seems more a fable than a legend. The music was also really boring. I tried to enjoy it, but I couldn't find anything special about it. And the worst part of the entire game: the ocean. It was one of the worst experiences I've passed through in a videogame. I got to the point that I used to leave the controller there and come after a while to see if Link already reached it's destination.

Twilight Princess should be rated like 2.0 points above WW.

*puts flame shield on*

Thiago26792

So you would rate TP 4/10, it seems.

Well, then I'd rate WW 5.0 and TP 9.5.

Fixed.

where do I sign?ZumaJones07

i second that notion my good man!

the art style grew on me(although I still like TPs better), and character development was great. Both are great games, I just much prefer the darker version of Zelda over the lighthearted one. bigcalkenobi

man, i love how ever1 was like "when are they gunna make another game like OOT" then they did and apparently it was bad?x_water

They didn't do it. TP was supposed to be completely different, and they changed the direction in the middle of development, hence the unbalanced mix of features.

Stop those TP vs. WW threads! Can't you just agree that both games are good!Fatkiwi

Why would we do that if we don't agree? :|