Which game gives you the most freedom of expression? (and a love letter to World of Tanks)

I would say Minecraft but I don't really consider it a game.

It is more of a mining and building simulator with zombies tacked on the end just to make you lose all your inventory at the bottom of a gigantic pit.

So I am going to say World of Tanks.

Because of the wide range of tanks available with all the minor adjustments in armour, gun, engine etc gives you almost infinite possibilities of how to tackle the problem of how to kill the enemy team whilst not getting killed.

Sit in a bush with a tank destroyer or speed around in a light tank getting all the angles. Strategies are always different in every game and the team has to co-operate to ensure victory so the choices you make in the battle have wide ranging implications on the game as a whole, meaning you are constantly given a wide range of option, ie routes to choose, whether or not to track a tank or go for it's hatch, which tank to target. The game plays out quite slowly but minor split second adjustments often mean the difference between victory or failure.

So watching replays of that game really gives you something of an impression of the personality of the individual playing the game, even in the way he drives or moves the gun.

So given the complexity of the terrain and range of tanks available, World of Tanks gives you a staggering array of options regarding how to tackle the problem of winning the game.

10/10

I'm not really familiar with World of Tanks, so won't pretend to be. But when I think of freedom and games letting one sink hundreds of hours due to variety, options, and layers, Monster Hunter (franchise overall) is the first and best example that comes to mind personally.

Because MH has a lot to do, and would be difficult to cover so simply. I'll spare everyone that burden and keep it easy, with basic words and some pictures to give context within two brackets_ Combat and Preparation. However for those that don't find that good enough; here is a link to MH4G buyers guidebook (with well over 1,600 pages of in-game details expanding on the below) Monster Hunter itself can be very mathematical, so dive-in at your own freewill_

Combat-

14 weapon classes (in the current instalment), environmental hazards, mounting, trapping, tranqing, paralysing, sleeping, KO, bombs, blind, destroy (decapitate limb), poisoning, and turf war.

Preparation-

mining, fishing, bug capturing, egg carrying, sharpening, market trading, exhibitions, tracking, warm drinks and cold drinks, stat buffs, crafting (lots of this), Pugi, skills (charm tables), cooking, and pre-hunt meals

@RSM-HQ: Hey thanks for your input.

But I would say MH is quite pre-determined insofar as the activities are pre-programmed or scripted. I'm not saying it doesn't have a ton of options for weapon builds and side games, but when you consider the freedom of movement within the game, all activities are pre programmed paths for you to follow and the only real freedom of personal expression is in weapon builds and how you choose to divide your time within the various game modes.

@Jackamomo

for a voxel game minecraft is rather limited and world of tanks is ONLY a combat game so that part alone is limiting. So if you wanted to do anything other than drive in a tank and do combat you would not have anything to do.

I have been playing a lot of Empyrion so its fresh on my mind which might be why I say my answer would be Empyrion. it would at the very least be in the top 5 of games with the most freedom of choice.

@jackamomo:

But I would say MH is quite pre-determined insofar as the activities are pre-programmed or scripted.

Not at all, it's a known series of RnG. While story quests are scripted (which is mostly a tutorial), and Events are to a degree, what comes along with those quests and everything outside is randomly generated. To the point you have the option to ditch your objective to hunt/ loot something more rare that showed up. Exhibition expands on this freedom also_

One moment you could be going out for either a hunt or egg and a DevilJho (or other α) shows up and snacks on your goal, and it could also be a Kirin showing up in exhibition which despite being a rare sight, is something many love getting

MH has quite a lot of random generated monsters and hazards, it doesn't compare to the Rouge genre of games in RnG but I don't think it would benefit from not having at least a form of structure in goals. It's not a sandbox but would say it has freedom in high quantities.

And that doesn't even factor crowns which determines the size of the monster (you can hunt a Rathalos the size of your Hunter), which changes the monsters stats. Crowns themselves come in a few varieties as well.

@RSM-HQ: What I'm trying to say is actually not that easy to understand I'll admit I didn't really fully explain what I'm thinking about.

Consider a tank has a top, bottom and sides. Your angle is important in bouncing shells, so minor adjustments in tank position can constitute a fairly radical change in fortunes for you given the speed the shells travel.

So you have to consider the exact moment to angle your armour to avoid getting 'penned' and maybe still get your shot off and consider where to drive your tank next.

So alot of thinking needs to be done on the fly. The game is very competitive though so radical manoeuvres rarely work and the instantaneous nature of the combat and possible number of angles shells can come at you, dictate your movements and positioning which needs quick reactions and alot of different option of how to react to a situation.

Hence, you are given alot of freedom to decide your actions which is naturally a reflection on your personality.

PS. I like the gif though. That game looks crazy, I'm just not digging the grass texture.

that same example applies to a game like Emperyion but in addition to that feature there is a lot of other aspects as well.

I dont think there can be any ONLY COMBAT GAME regardless of how deep it is, that can be considered really more freeing then other options.

I can however think of one that gets very detailed in all aspect of combat and that is a game called From the Depths. There is a lot to the power management, weapons, modules to the weapons, armour choices, attack decisions etc.

@tryit: From the Depths

That's another Minecraft game! To be honest even it it has 4000 odd mostly positive reviews it looks like a cluster f*ck to me. I don't think the armour model would be as refined as WoT but you can't deny it gives you freedom.

It kind of reminds me of Mechwarrior games in that you design your weapon loadouts though. Streak missiles ftw.

EDIT: Just realised it rts. Kind of reminds me of a more up to date Earth 2150.

@jackamomo said:

@tryit: From the Depths

That's another Minecraft game! To be honest even it it has 4000 odd mostly positive reviews it looks like a cluster f*ck to me. I don't think the armour model would be as refined as WoT but you can't deny it gives you freedom.

It kind of reminds me of Mechwarrior games in that you design your weapon loadouts though. Streak missiles ftw.

sorry but its not another minecraft game but seeing how you are unable to inspect a feature list of a game I am not surprised you think that.

its very very very deep in its game mechanics, power management, how guns work, how the different modules for those guns work.

but I understand you are unable to see that and would refuse to even look into it so I really no longer give a **** about your opinion frankly. you absolutly REFUSE to even look into game mechanics of a game.

if you can read...try looking into this:

https://fromthedepths.gamepedia.com/Advanced_Cannon

its very detailed, that is for ONE weapon type

@tryit: yeah sorry about that. See the edit. But it does look a bit like Minecraft and it does have crafting, kind of. :/

take a look at this page, just look at the table of contents and step back and think that maybe what I am saying is not pure bullshit

https://fromthedepths.gamepedia.com/Advanced_Cannon

All about self expression.

@jackamomo: Ah I see, my first impression is you was explaining scripted set-pieces in the games code that must play out in the same context every time. While it seems the freedom you like, heavily comes from precision in this World of Tanks, and the competitive aspect that brings.

Monster Hunter does have a competitive scene, like a lot of multiplayer Capcom games, yet accuracy is pretty lenient in the series especially since MH4+ added a lock-on mechanic, it's more about knowing when to advance than how (because being hit even once isn't a good idea sometimes). Along with the none violent preparation Hunters can take to find different solutions for success.

Regardless I think both are technically freedom in games, just in different aspects.

With that stated may end-up looking into this World of Tanks, reads a little like 3D Worms/ Hogs of War.

@RSM-HQ: I'm surprised your not familiar with WoT. I thought it was quite well known. 3d worms? Hogs of war? No. It's about the most difficult multiplayer game on the internet and it's played in real time.

@tryit What I would say about the advanced cannon is I don't understand algebra and I'm not sure I'd be into designing individual shell types. I like how Mech 3's weapon options are limited like it doesn't have medium range missiles, just short and long. It must be tempting as a developer to keep adding complexity but balancing your game just becomes more difficult.

Strong simple mechanics make games fun. Earth 2150 uses lasers and energy shields in a very interesting way in that to kill with a laser the target has to be heated up to the point he explodes but doesn't take damage before and energy shields will absorb lasers. But if you go the Russian style faction you get big cannons which ignore the energy shield, also true of missiles and some bombs I think.

Off topic sorry I just like Earth 2150. The sequel was disappointing.

@jackamomo: Most difficult game on the internet? Bold claim, likely exaggerated, but your passion for WoT is respectable. I'll look into it at the very least.

However, being honest when I write this was the first time I've read mention of World of Tanks. Pretty into P.C. Gaming as well but suppose we each can't know of every game in existence.

*Compared it to Worms and Hog because they heavily focus on accuracy. I'm aware those two games are turnbase but have timers to create a form of balance.

not knowing what World of Tanks is, is a bit like saying 'havent a clue about PC gaming'

@tryit:

not knowing what World of Tanks is, is a bit like saying 'havent a clue about PC gaming'

Could say the same about War for the Overworld, Divinity 2, or Quake Champions.

But hey I don't judge people like that as the Elitist group does, it would make me seem like a douche bag ツ

you 'could say' but you would be wrong.

just because you 'can say' doesnt mean its true.

there are some iconic games in PC gaming, World of Tanks is one of those games.

@tryit:

there are some iconic games in PC gaming

Yeah, about that_

Quake has it's own convention and is one of the founding and most successful franchises in P.C. Gaming

Then add Divinity: Original Sin II, arguably the most successfully received Kickstarter P.C. game of the past decade!

And finally War for the Overworld the modern and true successor to Dungeon Keeper (a heavily beloved P.C. franchise)

Guess you know nothing about P.C. by your own definition. Lucky for you I don't care what you like, so long as you're enjoying games, that's what gaming is about. Not being some Bigot demanding people play your niche preference otherwise they are not 'blah blah'. Seriously dood, grow-up.

@RSM-HQ said:

@tryit: Quake has it's own convention and is one of the founding and successful franchises in P.C. Gaming

Then add Divinity Original Sin II is arguably the most successful received Kickstarter P.C. game of the past decade!

And finally Divinity Original Sin II the modern and true successor to Dungeon Keeper (a heavily beloved P.C. franchise)

Guess you know nothing about P.C. by your own definition. Lucky for you I don't care what you like, so long as you're enjoying games, that's what gaming is about. Not being some Bigot demanding people play your niche preference otherwise they are not 'blah blah'. Seriously dood, grow-up.

I have heard of those games asshat.

and yes of course Quake is one of the games that is ironic to the PC brand.

Divinity Original Sin II I would argue is not.

I would also aruge that Dungeon Keeper is not.

but get over it if you dont agree jesus talk about making a fucking mountain over a ant hill.

I mean what would I know I have only been playing PC games exclusively for 38 years nearly every weekend.

@tryit:

I have heard of those games asshat.

Actually you have previously said otherwise on two of those games, so that also makes you a liar. Games being WftO and D:OSII. Divinity: OSII more recently I do believe was in a P.C. thread here I would link, but seems you deleted your reply to me, probably realised how stupid it came across? Surely I could still track the reply in my notifications though_

and yes of course Quake is one of the games that is ironic to the PC brand.

Thanks for proving my point, I know what Quake is, and I've sunk over 100 hours into Quake: Champions.

Divinity Original Sin II I would argue is not.

Your call, but seems to me you should eat your own aggro definition. And I doubt you have enough knowledge on the game to make a decent argument for how it's not.

but get over it

lol.

You're the one butting in our otherwise jolly conversation, solely to tell me I don't know what P.C. gaming is. . . why not take your own advice and **** off!

Currently probably Elite Dangerous. You can simoly explore, mine for money, be a pirate, a hired mercenary, import goods, etc and all in space. Still not my favorite game but very free in your activities and you set your own goals and follow them through how you see fit. If Star Citizen will ever finish it should do this but slightly better. I hope.

I have never said I havent heard of Quake

I have never said I havent hear of Divinity Orginal Sin

yes I have heard of Quake, I have played Quake, its an iconic PC game that the vast majority of people who know PC gaming knows about and I can not imagine a person not knowing what Quake is if they have played PC gaming. I have been physically in the same apartment that one of the largest servers in the 90s was running. I know what the **** Quake is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have played only PC games for 38 fucking years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I might have a clue I might know what Quake is

Divinity Original Sin on the other hand I would disgagree with you on

World of Tanks however in my opinion is EXTREEMLY well known in the PC universe.

I am not changing my mind on this..so F off because I am not even reading your shit

what is ICONIC and what I personally have heard of is not the same thing

because I have heard of the game Another Brick in the Mall doesnt mean I consider Another Brick in the Mall a iconic game that all PC gamers should have heard of .

what is seriously wrong with you?

Oh shit! NERD FIGHT!

@heathen75 said:

@tryit said:

@RSM-HQ said:

@tryit:

I have heard of those games asshat.

Actually you have previously said otherwise on two of those games, so that also makes you a liar. Games being WftO and D:OSII. Divinity: OSII more recently I do believe was in a P.C. thread here I would link, but seems you deleted your reply to me, probably realised how stupid it came across? Surely I could still track the reply in my notifications though_

and yes of course Quake is one of the games that is ironic to the PC brand.

Thanks for proving my point, I know what Quake is, and I've sunk over 100 hours into Quake: Champions.

Divinity Original Sin II I would argue is not.

You're call, but seems to me you should eat your own aggro definition. And I doubt you have enough knowledge on the game to make a decent argument for how it's not.

but get over it

lol.

You're the one butting in our otherwise jolly conversation, solely to tell me I don't know what P.C. gaming is. . . why not take your own advice and **** off!

I have never said I havent heard of Quake

I have never said I havent hear of Divinity Orginal Sin

yes I have heard of Quake, I have played Quake, its an iconic PC game that the vast majority of people who know PC gaming knows about and I can not imagine a person not knowing what Quake is if they have played PC gaming. I have been physically in the same apartment that one of the largest servers in the 90s was running. I know what the **** Quake is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have played only PC games for 38 fucking years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I might have a clue I might know what Quake is

Divinity Original Sin on the other hand I would disgagree with you on

World of Tanks however in my opinion is EXTREEMLY well known in the PC universe.

I am not changing my mind on this..so F off because I am not even reading your shit

what is ICONIC and what I personally have heard of is not the same thing

because I have heard of the game Another Brick in the Mall doesnt mean I consider Another Brick in the Mall a iconic game that all PC gamers should have heard of .

what is seriously wrong with you?

Oh shit! NERD FIGHT!

yeah big time!

people around here really get hyper sensitive about the smallest of things dont they?

@heathen75: Those slaps are too good for my combat skill ((´д｀))

Please teach us.

I did learn from the master.

Dark Souls- Oh I'm sorry, 'Fashion Souls'

@heathen75: XD

I'm glad someone made a joke out of this terrible debate. Thanks for the laughs.

you are the one who got waaaaaay bent out of shape over what was effectively just a joke.

stop

@RSM-HQ said:

@tryit said:

you are the one who got waaaaaay bent out of shape over what was effectively just a joke.

stop

Let

it

Go

bro

jesus.....World of Tanks is a very popular game, even now more popular than Divinity Orginal Sin.

calm yourself and please...try to take these things a lot less personal.

I've seen some pretty creative things in games, but as they say about robots and computers, "the [game] is not smart, it can only do what you taught it to do". We are always going to be constrained by the genre of the game, or what the developer put into (or, more accurately, did not put into) the game.

Minecraft has a lot of customization, the structures and even devices that people build in there with the whole programming thing is pretty cool. For example:

People have built functional "televisions" that are as tall as skyscrapers, dwarven cities, and so forth.
A guy proposed to his girlfriend in Minecraft (it was actually kind of sweet)

Factorio is another good one; for those that don't know, it's a production micro-management/factory builder sim. While you start out with the basics--stone structures, pickaxe, etc--you quickly gain access to flying logistic robots, conveyer belts, trains, and so on. You can also use circuitry and blueprints and all manner of things.

Here is a video of Sandstorm done in Minecraft, using only in-game objects.

But, again, as I said earlier you can only do things in these games, as creative as that might be, in the game's world, with the rules. You can only build things out of blocks in Minecraft, you can only lay down and connect factories in Factorio.

Cities: Skylines is another fun one, too, for any wannabe city planners.

Tiered city, this is actually pretty beautiful.

well said, I should mention however that in the more mondern era of building games its now not just about building.

7 days to die for example is also about combat and tower defense.

in Emperyion its also true (however in my opinion less as important function then in 7 days to die)

anyway..my point is, in the building/survial/crafting genre of gaming things are happening quickly and its expanding fast.

I think you know that given the games you have played, I just felt like highlighting it again

I've got to admit, it's a really abstract question. But I think a game's ability to present choices which are compelling an a regular basis is the sign of good game design.

That's the question I ask myself when I'm playing a game. Am I enjoying it and are my options numerous enough to make it feel like I am in control.

I remember myself spending like my whole time playing Zelda: Ocarine of Time for N64; and also remember myself playing Metal Gear all the weekend long. These two games, plus Resident Evil 2 and Gears of War 2, are the main reason why I became a videogame scriptwriter.

I heard a lecture in which the theory of game design went like this.

Game are for testing options in the face of randomness in order to test ones skill.

The roots of games where to do that for combat purposes, to test a persons choices in the case of a combat which has a great deal of randomness to it as well as static principles.

thus good game design gives a player multiple solutions to a problem which then allows the player to experiment with results.

@tryit: and you're point?

That me and the lecturer came to the same conclusion?

So you are saying I'm an expert in game design.

Thanks!

my point was an observation of what I heard from an expert in game design, nothing more, it was not about you specifically

@tryit: so you reiterated my point.

Have you stopped being angry now?

no I have not stopped being angry and although I didnt describe it all in great detail I feel that what I heard went into more depth then your explanation does and yours, although not incorrect, is remedial by comparison.

where is your assessment of the randomness aspect?

where is your assessment of the 'testing skill' aspect?

what this lecture was trying to address is the question of why do we like games from a basic biological fundamental truth. not just some abstraction

are we now done?

@tryit: yes because I'm bored of trying to figure out what you're talking about.

PS. Don't bother responding. I'm done with you tryit.

You modus operandi is simply to attack. Our exchanges are utterly fruitless.

fair enough

rhetorical question not for reply:

How did you like the detail in From the Depths compared to the depth of minecraft?

anyway...rhetorical question we are done as requested.