What Gameplay Elements Need to be Retired?

For me, it's back-tracking through a level. Some of the best games have been guilty of this, most of them RPG's or FPS games.

I mean, is there ever a time where it's added to the enjoyment of a game? Imagine if you were rading a book and it said "Go back 20 pages and re-read them before proceding".

What else?

I don't mind that so much...it just depends on what sort of backtracking we're talking about.

If we're talking about the natural backtracking that happens the first time you are playing through an adventure game, thorugh areas that are realtively open and you have to find the right path to go down, I don't mind that so much. If we're talking about cases of literal forced backtracking through stages in a linear fashion, that's annoying, indeed.

I'll think of a few features that I find annoying, with analysis...but that'll come later on. :)

I don't mind that so much...it just depends on what sort of backtracking we're talking about.Skylock00

I'm talking about... ewll I'll give you an example. In Contact, for the DS, there is a level where you must activate 4 "passkeys" linked to your costume. So you have to go to the door you are trying to open, stand on the passkey, and then go back to your homebase, change into a new outfit and then go back to the door. Four times.

So yeah, forced backtracking.

Fetch quests need to go. Unless its something that's purely optional, then that's fine with me. But if its mandatory, then that could very well hurt a game's fun factor IMO.

One other thing that grates on my nerves is the whole "you have 30 seconds to do this before you DIE" gimmick. If there's one thing I hate, its being rushed. Sorry, but I'd prefer to take my sweet time thank you very much. XD

random encounters. ive just had enough of them, they serve no purpose. i could see in the days of limited computing power, but now i would like to be able to flee from a fight without suffering two transition screens and the waiting to actually run.

speaking of battle transitions, another RPG gripe i have are said transitions. make it seamless, the break in the action destroys immersiveness.

Auto-healing and automatic cover in 3D shooters need to disappear. They've been tried, they suck, axe them.

Oh, and can we get rid of filler enemies too? There's absolutely no reason for games to have enemies that are too weak to kill you, especially when the combat sucks (I'm looking at you, Zelda).

How about not being able to skip cutscenes, or limited saves? Both of these combine to make me memorize entire portions of frickin' game scripts.Video_Game_King

Oh guys im about to win this thread. Im a man who loves to **** Timed Button Sequencesexamples: God Of War, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, and every damn game inbetween! X, B, X, A, Y, A, B, X, Y, L1!!!! **** your dead. It was fresh and new for God War, but has been done to death now, and needs to be buried and forgotten. I literally rolled my eyes and flipped my TV the middle finger when I seen they stuck those in The Force Unleashed. I mean seriously, why can't I do all this cool stuff in game instead of watching it in scripted cutscenes? GodModeEnabled

It's a convention that's been used back when Dragon Lair first game out in 1983. The only difference is that instead of figuring out what you're supposed to do in a more abstract fashion, developers started telling you what the exact button you are supposed to press with an onscreen prompt that breaks the experience to some degree, and the only way they sort of change things up in this regard is make it so there's some level of randomness in the buttons you need to press. It became a tired convention back when FMV games were at their worst (pressing buttons to a preset, unchanging/barely changing movie sequence), and I think God of War made them somewhat interesting by making the effect of the events so strong in gameplay.

It's quite an old convention...though to a degree it is also the basis to games like, say, Guitar Hero to a degree, as it's essentially pressing a specialized, pre-determined set of buttons to a prerendered backdrop (in this case, music instead of a cutscene) to get a desired result.

I can think of two things for now:

1. Insanely hard bosses. The whole game is easy until now but all of a sudden, you face a boss that is so hard you're forced to grind for hours before you can stand a chance. This is RPGs of course.

2. Another RPG one including SRPGs. Bosses who heal themselves. You get their HP to single digits and then he throws a potion over himself and he's back to where you started. Once or twice is okay but when a boss has unlimited potions or heal...AAARRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!! Drives me crazy!!!:twisted:

QTEs need to die.EvilTaru

I agree.

Some are cool if done right. But I hate games that rely on them frequently. I don't like it when developers make a movie rather than a game.

1. Insanely hard bosses. The whole game is easy until now but all of a sudden, you face a boss that is so hard you're forced to grind for hours before you can stand a chance. This is RPGs of course.ASK_Story

Hmm RPGs...what about games like Castlevania: OoE? Cuz according to GI, the bosses there can be "unreasonably difficult." I'll admit, I was just a teeny bit discouraged as soon as I found that out, however, the fighting and exploration should more than make up for it, I hope.

[QUOTE="ASK_Story"]1. Insanely hard bosses. The whole game is easy until now but all of a sudden, you face a boss that is so hard you're forced to grind for hours before you can stand a chance. This is RPGs of course.BladesOfAthena

Hmm RPGs...what about games like Castlevania: OoE? Cuz according to GI, the bosses there can be "unreasonably difficult." I'll admit, I was just a teeny bit discouraged as soon as I found that out, however, the fighting and exploration should more than make up for it, I hope.

Well, an action game is different because it's more skill-based. RPGs are all about how powerful you are. Although Castlevania does have RPG elements.

I wasn't really talking about the difficulty of the boss, just the grinding part. I don't mind grinding but sometimes when you're forced to do it, it gets tiresome.

Oh guys im about to win this thread. Im a man who loves to **** Timed Button Sequencesexamples: God Of War, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, and every damn game inbetween! X, B, X, A, Y, A, B, X, Y, L1!!!! **** your dead. It was fresh and new for God War, but has been done to death now, and needs to be buried and forgotten. I literally rolled my eyes and flipped my TV the middle finger when I seen they stuck those in The Force Unleashed. I mean seriously, why can't I do all this cool stuff in game instead of watching it in scripted cutscenes? The cutscenes show me as the baddest Sith to ever live stomping AT-STS into the dirt and force raping jedi, but when I actually get to play its more like "clumsily throw stuff around, curse at the bad camera angles, and hide in the corner until my force bar regenerates."GodModeEnabled

Yeah, I totally agree, as they can get tedious very fast. Also, I would like to add that getting to partake in the stylish skirmishes that make up QTEs can be quite a hard task because your mind is so heavily focused on hitting the button inputs correctly and in the right sequence.

Hardly. Quick Time Events weren't new when they were used in God of War, they weren't new when they were used in Resident Evil 4, or even in Shenmue, where the term QTE was popularized. It's a convention that's been used back when Dragon Lair first game out in 1983. The only difference is that instead of figuring out what you're supposed to do in a more abstract fashion, developers started telling you what the exact button you are supposed to press with an onscreen prompt that breaks the experience to some degree, and the only way they sort of change things up in this regard is make it so there's some level of randomness in the buttons you need to press. It became a tired convention back when FMV games were at their worst (pressing buttons to a preset, unchanging/barely changing movie sequence), and I think God of War made them somewhat interesting by making the effect of the events so strong in gameplay.It's quite an old convention...though to a degree it is also the basis to games like, say, Guitar Hero to a degree, as it's essentially pressing a specialized, pre-determined set of buttons to a prerendered backdrop (in this case, music instead of a cutscene) to get a desired result.Skylock00

God Of War was the game made them popular again, and they have been infesting games ever since. Clive Barkers Jericho, Force Unleashed, Spiderman 3, Resident Evil 4, Heavenly Sword etc.etc.etc. Are you seriously going to argue that you like this immersion shattering lazy game design copout? There is no reason that the events you see replicated in the QTE events in these games cant be a part of the actual gameplay where you have full control over things.

I concede Guitar Hero though because fundamentally it is the same thing so I agree, still since it is the whole game I don't have a problem with it as it dosen't break immersion or flow for me.GodModeEnabled

I also agree that timed button presses are fine in music rhythm games, as I love them as well, just pointing out alternate takes on this convention that are at least fun. ;)

]I'm not arguing that I like it at all. I'm simply saying that it's an OLD convention that was already overused before it was brought back, first by Shenmue, then again by RE4 (and actually, RE4 used it before God of War did, since RE4 came out in January of '05, and God of War did in March). I also agree that timed button presses are fine in music rhythm games, as I love them as well, just pointing out alternate takes on this convention that are at least fun. ;)Skylock00

QTE's I generally have no problem with if they are executed well. It simulates the need to quickly interpret and act (just as you would in a dangerous situation).

Best execution was in Pariah/ Indigo Prophecy. The worst... sad to say probably God of War.

QTE's I generally have no problem with if they are executed well. It simulates the need to quickly interpret and act (just as you would in a dangerous situation).

Best execution was in Pariah/ Indigo Prophecy. The worst... sad to say probably God of War.

aspro73

[QUOTE="aspro73"]

QTE's I generally have no problem with if they are executed well. It simulates the need to quickly interpret and act (just as you would in a dangerous situation).

Best execution was in Pariah/ Indigo Prophecy. The worst... sad to say probably God of War.

Skylock00

Really? Well, I guess it must come down to personal preference. While I thoughly enjoyed all of the GoW games I found the QTE to be annoying, in that I'd miss it the first time around and then had a pretty good chance of guessing on the second attempt (even though they would mix it up). With IP I found I could get them the first time through without any annoying repeat. Now, maybe that made it too easy -- which I can see why people would not enjoy -- but for me, I like not having to repeat.

Really? Well, I guess it must come down to personal preference. While I thoughly enjoyed all of the GoW games I found the QTE to be annoying, in that I'd miss it the first time around and then had a pretty good chance of guessing on the second attempt (even though they would mix it up). With IP I found I could get them the first time through without any annoying repeat. Now, maybe that made it too easy -- which I can see why people would not enjoy -- but for me, I like not having to repeat.

aspro73

I didn't enjoy it because it was pretty much the primary means of doing most of the actions scenes, and really made the game feel less like a meaningful experience to me, given the sheer absurdity of everything else about the second half of the story. It was, without a doubt, one of the most dissappointing games of the past generations, and even worse than Fable in overstating what the game actually delivered, IMHO.

cratesgeorgestone

and put square peg in square hole. The example is Dead Space, the game dose a pretty good job at making me feel like I am on a ship that could exist in the future outside of video game land until you have to usekinesisto pick up thesquarepower boxes and put them in the hole next to the door. It seems just thrown in and why would you havethese"fuses"? or "batteries"? that could just fall on a whim? It rips me rite out of the fear of the game and puts me in lame legend of zelda push the boxes around mode.

For me, it's back-tracking through a level. Some of the best games have been guilty of this, most of them RPG's or FPS games.

I mean, is there ever a time where it's added to the enjoyment of a game? Imagine if you were rading a book and it said "Go back 20 pages and re-read them before proceding".

What else?

aspro73

*cut scenes (why are these still in games?)

*gritty 'realistic' graphics (tiled bricks, grates, pavement, etc.)

*NPCs (the kind that hang around in RPGs, and only say ONE thing each time you talk to them)

*bullet time (when used to pad the game out)

*walk/run/jump mechanic (can't developers think of more imaginative ways that things could move?)

*layered level design + boss at the end (the kind of game that just has a number of areas, one after the other with a boss at the end of each - so old)

i can probably think of more at some point too.

Save points. They (along with random battles) were a relic of hardware limitations and now exist only under the guise of being 'old-school' or adding challenge. No, they're just ridiculous.

In a similar vein, random battles. I think we've advanced to the point where we no longer need to flash players into a separate battle screen. Pad a game with content, not tweaking the encounter rate - this isn't 1990.

Escort missions. Of ANY kind. If a game must have them, make the escort intelligent. If that's impossible, make them invincible. If neither of those can be achieved, axe the escort entirely. There's nothing worse than having to protect a retarded AI dude from himself as he meanders from point A to point B, charging at every single enemy he sees (sweet merciful christ that means you, World of Warcraft).

Key hunts. So, I get to wander off down one path to get a coloured key (or something that is functionally identical to a key), head back in the other direction, unlock a door, wander until I get another key, repeat again until I get the big master key that allows me to unlock the door to the next area/boss/level/whatever. Doom already killed this concept, we don't need to revisit it again and again. At least first person shooters (sort of) stopped doing this. Someone should remind JRPGs while we're at it.

I'm sure I've got more but they don't come immediately to mind unless I've recently experienced them.

I'd like an option to press F something to bypass the cutscenes. I'll give you an example. I am playing Pariah at the moment and am at the beginning of a level, because it self-saves at the end of a level and you don't have the choice to save when you want, I have to sit through the same cutscene before I get going everytime I get killed and have to start again.

I hate unnecessarily overtechnical stuff that means you have to get a post-graduate degree in training before you begin.

I hate it when you cannot change the control settings.

Fetch quests need to go. Unless its something that's purely optional, then that's fine with me. But if its mandatory, then that could very well hurt a game's fun factor IMO.

One other thing that grates on my nerves is the whole "you have 30 seconds to do this before you DIE" gimmick. If there's one thing I hate, its being rushed. Sorry, but I'd prefer to take my sweet time thank you very much. XD

BladesOfAthena

random encounters. ive just had enough of them, they serve no purpose. i could see in the days of limited computing power, but now i would like to be able to flee from a fight without suffering two transition screens and the waiting to actually run.

speaking of battle transitions, another RPG gripe i have are said transitions. make it seamless, the break in the action destroys immersiveness.

OneWingedAngeI

Oh guys im about to win this thread. Im a man who loves to **** Timed Button Sequencesexamples: God Of War, Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, and every damn game inbetween! X, B, X, A, Y, A, B, X, Y, L1!!!! **** your dead. It was fresh and new for God War, but has been done to death now, and needs to be buried and forgotten. I literally rolled my eyes and flipped my TV the middle finger when I seen they stuck those in The Force Unleashed. I mean seriously, why can't I do all this cool stuff in game instead of watching it in scripted cutscenes? The cutscenes show me as the baddest Sith to ever live stomping AT-STS into the dirt and force raping jedi, but when I actually get to play its more like "clumsily throw stuff around, curse at the bad camera angles, and hide in the corner until my force bar regenerates." AI: Country Bumpkin A Hyuk Hyuk, I Just Married A Raccon AIexamples: Dead Rising, Gears Of War, GRAW, Mass Effect, GTA, ...every game ever pretty much. You are an elite miltiary force of death, You eat danger for breakfast and defecate pain in the afternoon. The sun does not rise in the morning due to some universal force of gravitation, it rises when you open your eyes because it fears what you'll do to it if it dosent obey your wishes. Paired up with you on your ultimate quest of stopping the terrorists,machines,aliens,zombies,strippers,pirates etc are cousin jethro and his 27 brothers A DDDURRRR. "Take cover and return fire PLEASE" you think, as the enemy swarms your location. You search quickly for the best spot to safley start picking off some enemys when Jethro comments that there mothers are less than classy ladys, while throwing a grenade that lands two feet in front of him... and A DDDURRRR is stuck running in circles seemingly because hes not so much human as a mix of chimpanzee and down syndrome. What really takes the cake is when you are forced to go constantly "ressurect" them and babysit them. Sometimes, and I know im not alone on this, I kill them on purpose. A lot. Sometimes I wish my character would just join the bad guys and kill the whole godamn lot of them and be done with it. My best example is Dead Rising... if any of you played the game you KNOW how aggravating the survivors are. I started "rescuing" them just so I could use them as zombie bait to get me through the tougher areas alive. "Oh thank you for rescuing me, you're the best!" says survivor 23. "No problem misses walking zombiemeat!!" *giggle* And Then.... THEN thats the times they would actually survive... through the worst of it. I got so angry after trying for 47 times in a row (in a ROW) to get this one lady to saftey, then using her as bait and she LIVED that I took a lawnmower to her face out of the principle of things. **** YOU!! I got more but I need a beer to relax first o_0 GodModeEnabled

I can think of two things for now:

1. Insanely hard bosses. The whole game is easy until now but all of a sudden, you face a boss that is so hard you're forced to grind for hours before you can stand a chance. This is RPGs of course.

2. Another RPG one including SRPGs. Bosses who heal themselves. You get their HP to single digits and then he throws a potion over himself and he's back to where you started. Once or twice is okay but when a boss has unlimited potions or heal...AAARRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!! Drives me crazy!!!:twisted:

ASK_Story

I don't think insanely hard bosses are going anywhere. The only thing that can make them better is to be able to skip the cutscene so I don't end up repeating those phrases in everyday life.

Save points. They (along with random battles) were a relic of hardware limitations and now exist only under the guise of being 'old-school' or adding challenge. No, they're just ridiculous.

DJ_Lae

There isn't a single combat or movement-based game (FPS, platformers, etc) in the whole universe that uses quicksaves that is actually challenging. Believe it or not, being able to save after every movement kills any challenge that a game could have. Save points allow the developers to decide how long the player should go without saving and appropriately design strings of challenges between every save point that can actually be challenging.

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"]

Save points. They (along with random battles) were a relic of hardware limitations and now exist only under the guise of being 'old-school' or adding challenge. No, they're just ridiculous.

ReddestSkies

There isn't a single combat or movement-based game (FPS, platformers, etc) in the whole universe that uses quicksaves that is actually challenging. Believe it or not, being able to save after every movement kills any challenge that a game could have. Save points allow the developers to decide how long the player should go without saving and appropriately design strings of challenges between every save point that can actually be challenging.

Having to spend hours stacking up crates in order to climb out of an area. I got stuck in Alpha Prime that way, everytime I clambered up they fell down.

In the end I had to skip level.

And another irritating thing which I found particularily in Half Life; having to make lots of jumps from one ledge to another......god that's boring!

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"]

Save points. They (along with random battles) were a relic of hardware limitations and now exist only under the guise of being 'old-school' or adding challenge. No, they're just ridiculous.

ReddestSkies

There isn't a single combat or movement-based game (FPS, platformers, etc) in the whole universe that uses quicksaves that is actually challenging. Believe it or not, being able to save after every movement kills any challenge that a game could have. Save points allow the developers to decide how long the player should go without saving and appropriately design strings of challenges between every save point that can actually be challenging.

I meant more for RPGs, which seem to place save points at ridiculously wide intervals. Checkpoints in action games I don't have as much of a problem with. Or quicksaves with a limit or something to discourage their use.

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"]

Save points. They (along with random battles) were a relic of hardware limitations and now exist only under the guise of being 'old-school' or adding challenge. No, they're just ridiculous.

ReddestSkies

There isn't a single combat or movement-based game (FPS, platformers, etc) in the whole universe that uses quicksaves that is actually challenging. Believe it or not, being able to save after every movement kills any challenge that a game could have. Save points allow the developers to decide how long the player should go without saving and appropriately design strings of challenges between every save point that can actually be challenging.

I find it ridiculous that people could actually be against the ability to save anywhere. If you are saving every 3 minutes to take the challenge away then you have noone to blame but yourself. Most people have no problems with quicksaving at all, and I dont see it as a balance issue as much as part of gaming crowd being nitpicky.GodModeEnabled

I find it ridiculous that people could actually be against the ability to save anywhere. If you are saving every 3 minutes to take the challenge away then you have noone to blame but yourself. Most people have no problems with quicksaving at all, and I dont see it as a balance issue as much as part of gaming crowd being nitpicky.GodModeEnabled

I don't use quicksaving myself unless the auto-saving system is attrocious. Problem is that a lot of games that include quicksaving simply don't have decent auto-saving (devs get lazy and just think "well, they're going to quicksave anyways"). If a game is checkpoint-only, you know for sure that the developers actually put thought into the saves placement, and you just know that you're supposed to go through all those enemies, then jump over that pit, then fight that mini-boss without saving in-between those challenges.

Also, most people would have no problem at all with godmode being on by default in every action game.

Great point skies. I pray that autosaving gets better. There needs to be one right before every major point in the game. I guess the autosave shouldn't show up onscreen b/c we don't need the game to tell you 'HEY! SHAO KAHN IS THRU THIS DOOR!!!!!'

Underwater 2D platformer levels.

Or really, just about any underwater level where your character is designed to be on land.

Underwater 2D platformer levels.

Or really, just about any underwater level where your character is designed to be on land.

_BlueDuck_

random encounters. ive just had enough of them, they serve no purpose. i could see in the days of limited computing power, but now i would like to be able to flee from a fight without suffering two transition screens and the waiting to actually run.

speaking of battle transitions, another RPG gripe i have are said transitions. make it seamless, the break in the action destroys immersiveness.

OneWingedAngeI

So much frustration could have been spared if RPG designers, in their design documents, wrote, "Do what Chrono Trigger did" in their gameplay section. Why can't RPGs do what has been done successfully by a 12-year-old game?

Escort missions. Of ANY kind. If a game must have them, make the escort intelligent. If that's impossible, make them invincible. If neither of those can be achieved, axe the escort entirely. There's nothing worse than having to protect a retarded AI dude from himself as he meanders from point A to point B, charging at every single enemy he sees (sweet merciful christ that means you, World of Warcraft).

DJ_Lae

I hate escort missions but I hate aggressive escorts even more. The ones that you're supposed to watch over but they run into action and get their asses handed to them. I remember playing Marvel Ultimate Alliance on hard and some suck ass NPC that was too garbage a character to be playable in the game kept running into foes AFTER the escort portion was over, getting himself killed and making me reload over and over again.

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"]

Escort missions. Of ANY kind. If a game must have them, make the escort intelligent. If that's impossible, make them invincible. If neither of those can be achieved, axe the escort entirely. There's nothing worse than having to protect a retarded AI dude from himself as he meanders from point A to point B, charging at every single enemy he sees (sweet merciful christ that means you, World of Warcraft).

smerlus

I hate escort missions but I hate aggressive escorts even more. The ones that you're supposed to watch over but they run into action and get their asses handed to them. I remember playing Marvel Ultimate Alliance on hard and some suck ass NPC that was too garbage a character to be playable in the game kept running into foes AFTER the escort portion was over, getting himself killed and making me reload over and over again.