unsupportive gamers

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matenmoe

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#51 matenmoe
Member since 2004 • 1238 Posts

I think it's time game developers start supporting themselves.

Gaming industry is one of the industry that is supported by their fans heavily. Just look at what fanboys do.

PC game was largely built on fan mods, console games are largely built on player community, etc.

Gamers are supporting gaming industry plenty. It's the company's turn now.

TriangleHard

BOO-YA! Absolutely!! Perhaps we have too many cruddy titles to pick from today because none of the new games are terribly unique-due to a lack of serious "check this one out" competition? The developer companies have made their millions-they aren't going to disappear real soon. I mean, boo-hoo, why don't they cry to Uncle Sam for a government bailout then? Or-shocking-maybe they really should start LISTENING to gamers to keep their Free Enterprise businesses profitable. If you can't keep competative with cutting edge game ideas-not just prettier graphics-then it is time for your company to start packing it in. We gamers have spent enough money for them to do this over the years.

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ganjalo

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#53 ganjalo
Member since 2004 • 185 Posts

I was going to pm this but it turned out to be too many words.


[QUOTE="ganjalo"] YourChaosIsntMe

First and foremost, let's face it: this thread has ended. I do understand your wish for it to continue on the original topic, and will try to keep my response relatively short so this may happen.





The thread could not be much more dead than it already is after our extended back and forth, but thank you for the courtesy of keeping it brief, I know we will both appreciate it!




As to the idea of a private message, the possibility of placating you ended when you remained hostile, arrogant, and condescending. Likewise, do you think it fair to act in such a manner while repeating previous insults, and then demand a private response? Your behaviour isn't very endearing, to say the least. The irony of your disposition is that the validity of your opinions is almost exclusively contingent on my being "immature." So, before any formal response, I beg the question: do you associate hostility, arrogance, and near-plaigiarism with maturity?
YourChaosIsntMe




you are suggesting that when I said our off topic conversation which did not really involve anyone else still posting on the thread would be better conducted by PM that I was in fact copping out because I could not withstand the awesome might of your infallible logic in front of the gamespot community. I have been quite rude to you so I guess I should expect some posturing. My arguments are emotional appeals, and my application of knowledge is anachronistic according to you. That counterpoint sounds (male) chauvinistic and indicative of the probability that you have no reasoned arguments to make. It is really easy to say, "the world has changed so everything you thought you knew is wrong," and of course everything changed after 9/11. It is the height of condescension when one makes broad stroke comments like that and fails to clarify them. Do not bother digging up my own broad stroke comments to through back at me, I have a simple answer: I am condescending to you.



Furthermore; plagiarism? Where? As an academic I believe you should be aware of the severity of that accusation.






First, I'll address the constant theme of maturity. Your judgment that I am necessarily immature or "juvenile" is based upon value judgments, primarily. While this may also be your method of gaining the upper-hand, I like to believe that's not true. If it is, then your opinion has no validity at all. But, I will assume that it isn't. Your conclusion that I am somehow immature is entirely informed by the assumption that your opinion is inherently correct, when you've offered little more than token gestures and catchphrases in relation to our original disagreement or the successive disagreements (I'll get to your ConAgra statistics in a second).
YourChaosIsntMe




This theme has not actually been that constant, but perhaps the statement was more about writing choice / author's voice than an accurate account of events transpired. I guess I keep bringing it up because I would surely be very disappointed if I learned that one such as yourself were already grown and set in your ways. Thinking of you as sophomoric (read: un-honed intellect) is my way of being optimistic. You said, "a few thousand disgruntled middle Americans be damned." In my experience well adjusted adults do not think in these terms. A few thousand to reach your goals... is that a hard line number? What about just a few more? What about 10,000? 1,000,000? How about 300,000,000? The entire population of America so that the rest of the world may enjoy the wisdom of your ways? I do not believe that I am the one wrestling with a slippery slope.




You also consider and criticize what appears to you as disparate and irrelevant information. Why bring up the national economy? Why bring up the mechanization of agriculture techniques? Because everything is interrelated. This is all relevant.
YourChaosIsntMe




I did not ask you why you brought these issues up, I stated that I was not the one to posit them first as you had suggested in your other posts. Yes everything is interrelated, so shall we talk about everything, or have a focused conversation?




Agribusiness has a major impact on the national and global economy, as does the business model which is dominant. What you vaguely posit on a large scale would effectively minimize agricultural productivity (in terms of yield and profits) by at least 15%, if not more.
YourChaosIsntMe




Excellent retort to my drawn out statements asserting the opposite! No... looking back, I never suggested otherwise. Like The Yes Men, "it is commentary on the obvious," as you pointed out




Discussions cannot be as linear as you seem to want them to be.
YourChaosIsntMe




Great college buzz words, next time tell me about a dichotomy, you could probably make it fit better, and by nature you would have to explain it and not leave your idea hanging out in the wind. Without explaining your thoughts "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" (I couldn't help it) if I were to literally interpret your comment I would think that you mean to say that I wish us to start at point A of disagreement and arrive at point B of persuasion in a straight line without divergence. This thought is either deliberately obtuse or simply foolish. Again I remind that you put your words on me, and I was returning them, I was not disavowing any possibility of connections between tangential subjects, nor the validity of bringing them up.




I bring up those topics because they are directly or indirectly related to the main topic. Furthermore, this issue of identity crisis that you refer to, did you not pay attention when I told you that I'm going to declare a minor in Psychology? Did you really believe that it wouldn't be blatantly obvious that you don't know what you're talking about? Everything I referred to about my 16 year-old personality was supposed to be taken as emphasis of my criticisms for the anti-globalization and anti-multinational agribusiness movement. Those ideologies, movements, and organization are all related. This same logic also applies to the "irrelevant" topics that I referred to. How you relate "he's bringing secondary related topics into the discussion" with "he's going through an identity crisis." Since you seem to know so much about ethical theory and logic, I'm sure you know what a hasty generalization is. If you don't, I'm sure Wikipedia does.
YourChaosIsntMe




Again I catch you playing dumb, don't put on an act. Your supporting details were not the indication to me that you have been through several life changes. What was the indication was when you quite literally outlined your history and identified that you have changed many of your opinions, followed by the way that you speak derisively of your former beliefs. Do not be discouraged, if you had stated facts correctly there is a chance I might yield to your in progress undergraduate minor in Psychology.




Why did you have to go and play semantics? I really suggest that you stop relying on the dictionary and Wikipedia for your information. You offer a very rigid and linear definition of utopia directly out of a dictionary, which is inarguably correct to be sure, but such rigidity belies the nature of philosophy, ethics, and most of the other social sciences. Utopia is a novel by Thomas Moore. The term itself is taken from this novel, and largely defined by this novel. In it, Moore himself implies the impossibility of utopia. Moore enjoyed what we could generally call "word games." An example that comes to mind is his use of anywhere and nowhere, and the inevitable relationship these have with possible and impossible. Furthermore, you don't seem to realize that cultural circumstances have implications on this subject. While Dictionary.com, Oxford's, or Wikipedia will give you the information that you stated, to understand and actively discuss the concept and it's definition, you need to be more privy to philosophical discourse; many modernist and existentialist philosophers would define utopia as impossible, among other things. Sartre implies this in his The Age of Reason.
YourChaosIsntMe




Play semantics? Language is defiantly one of the most important skills any of us have ever acquired, how dare you accuse me of playing with words. Just kidding, but words are worth quibbling over, I was not joking about the importance of language. From my perspective it seems as though you may have doubted my accuracy and then checked several sources to see if one would agree with you, only to discover that you were wrong in the first place. Now you argue that these sources are trivial because they do not have the information that you are privy to; if only the OED was as smart as you are... I have a "very rigid and linear definition of utopia directly out of a dictionary, which is inarguably correct to be sure, but such rigidity belies the nature of philosophy, ethics, and most of the other social sciences." Yeah, philosophers, authorities on ethics, and social scientists are always getting on me about my rigid and linear definition of "thank you" also. Among those 999 times that it meant "thank you" we cannot forget that one time that it really meant "piss off." And BTW the meaning of Utopia is common knowledge, the idea that I would have to look it up is false, but it does fit in with all off your posturing. The rude things I am saying to you are directed at you, the rude things you are saying about me are obviously there for not just my benefit, but so others may see your skill at rebutting someone who is challenging your own beliefs. How is that going?




Again, your conclusion of this paragraph is a value-based judgment. While I appreciate your rationality here, your conclusion is still your opinion, with no valid basis in fact. How do I know this? I've read all of the skewed facts and statistics, the information taken out of context, and by my own admission, some valid information. Remember, such change is gradual.
YourChaosIsntMe




Okay, I'll remember that, perhaps you should remember that change can also happen like a flash flood. There is a prolonged building action followed by a tipping point (The Tipping Point, by Malcom Gladwell is a great book by the way), and soon the momentum is inescapable. It is, by the way, very hard to respond when you do not reference what it is that you are talking about.




Well...it wasn't short. Surprise!
YourChaosIsntMe




ROTFL, my goodness, what a surprise!




You're absolutely correct on the topic of suburban sprawl. At the same time, I didn't make a correlation between suburban sprawl and some type of compromise. Some of the things you state are certainly generalizations, but it's technically correct. I apologize for bringing it up, because it seems like my use of it confused you; it was simply used to emphasis the rapidity of urbanization.
YourChaosIsntMe




Back to my thoughts on language, I like how when you attach the word general to something it comes loaded with so many meanings. For example one might read this statement and interpret: some of his details are correct, but he is not thinking in the right direction. Another might read: I don't want to have to tell you that you are wrong, but you do not have it right. You can just say "genreraly XYZ," and then leave it to the reader to decide, brilliant! in a previous post you said "Agriculture is still relevant, and instead of simply urbanizing, we've also created suburban sprawl - as have many other countries." It seems like I suggested that you were in favor of urban only, and that this retort was to signify that you do not wish to fully discount agriculture, but were conscious of it through suburban sprawl. Suburban sprawl was not created, it was a consequence (a consequence leading back so far that I could easily connect it to the East India Company which you referenced so long ago)




On to the concept of the slippery slope. Wikipedia certainly explains it in it's entirety (in simplistic terms), it does not express the scope of the concept. Again, we're on the topic of the linearity of Wikipedia. This is inevitable due to the nature of Wikipedia. Only the definition or explanation of a subject which is accepted by close to 100% of people will be permitted to remain on Wikipedia. Like the concept of "utopia," Wikipedia is simply inadequate as a source of conclusive information (though it certainly helps for a somewhat in-depth overview). Your slippery slope is the the one which all anti-globalization/anti-multinational business activists fall victim to (the consequential effect of corporate agribusiness).
YourChaosIsntMe




"Your slippery slope is the the one which all anti-globalization/anti-multinational business activists fall victim to" Arg, you are still not telling me what slope this is (BTW, thank you for grouping me with agenda's which are not mine, and I did not even introduce to this conversation). Wait... "(the consequential effect of corporate agribusiness)" is that the slope? It is really to bad that it is an incomplete sentence and I have no way of interpreting exactly what you mean...




A slippery slope does not necessarily require a small "first step" and increasingly larger successive "steps." Nor does it necessarily require action, or any verb at all on the part of an individual or group of individuals.
YourChaosIsntMe




Then your version of a slippery slope is not slippery, nor does it slope. We should rename it the "peaceful standing on a level field, but I am right, so you can suck it!" argument.




Finally, and I quote (you), "it is not important anyway because the slippery slope is a logical fallacy." Yes, you're right; it is a major concept in logic that belongs to the group of logical fallacies. The slippery slope is true when an individual or individuals commit this specific fallacy. They are said to have argued fallaciously utilizing a slippery slope fallacy. Of course, a slipper slope can be correct, provided each step in the process is validated and deemed correct. The use of said fallacy requires that a conclusion is made based on the assumption that "....necessarily follows _____."
YourChaosIsntMe




So the Fallacy is true when individuals make the choices corisponding to the text book model of this fallacy, but otherwise it false. We could postulate on the probability of a text book model of a slippery slope existing, but I would choose instead to live in the now and make decisions based on what is in my own best interest. If I eat a lot of cookies that puts me on a slippery slope to gaining 20lbs, but I am an adult and I want a cookie, so I get a cookie. I am a responsible adult, so I offset the cookie with excursive and other healthy foods. In the real world these potential slippery slope situations are fare easier to deal with than you suggest.








Not to sound snide, but it helps when you learn about ethics, logic, etc. from people with doctorates rather than Wikipedia and disparate and/or sporadic individual research. Because of your statement which I quoted and the last four sentences in the paragraph (everything not from Wikipedia), it is clear to me that you have no formal knowledge on logical fallacies (nor did you fully understand it in your Wikipedia research).
YourChaosIsntMe




Wikipedia was for your benefit based on my need to rapidly find a public domain source with the information I was looking for. Again your posturing seems to be for the benefit of those who may read in on our conversation. It implies that my knowledge comes from disreputable sources and that your knowledge is absolute because you are learning from people with doctorates. I guess you could have said professors, but then the quip about not sounding snide would not have worked. Your attacks on my educational background are designed to make others question my opinions, and to make me doubtful or defensive about my own assertions. This strategy has however proven ineffective because though I could, I am not going to get into an academic pissing contest with you.




The Yes Men are an interesting agitation propaganda-performance art-direct action act. While it is interesting and the concept amusing, it is also trite and banal; it is commentary on the obvious.
YourChaosIsntMe




So you didn't like it? That is all you had to say. I never agued that it was groundbreaking.




Furthermore, there's nothing new about agitation propaganda and subversive activism. Chumbawamba were doing it in 1979, and Alexander Berkman was doing it in late 19th century, though The Yes Men were certainly more inventive (with the exception of Duchamp, obviously). In fact, your reference to The Yes Men says more about you than anything else you have said.
YourChaosIsntMe




I think you are right, in a GENERAL way. I could explain myself, but I only just stated that I was not going to get into a pissing contest, and one might be necessary for me to explain.




It actually clarifies why you're so hostile, arrogant, and morally superior. To actually respect such activism necessitates a linear perspective. It requires that your perception of the world be in relative absolutes. While I can't make a conclusive generalization about your character, it certainly provides me with some insight.
YourChaosIsntMe




I think your analysis of the film shows more about your perspective than mine in the end, i merely speculated that you do not like it, you on the other hand have given me a nice little reveiw. Which of these actions would your Psych minor allow you to more easily interpret? You see, The Yes Men was provocative because it challenged peoples rigid pov, not the audience's pov, but the people whom they were spoofing. Regardless of the conclusions which one may reach, the point of the movie was to raise awareness to people who may benefit from reexamining their perspective. If nothing else these people could walk away rethinking; "what does this look like," "what does this feel like?" No one watches this movie and thinks in absolutes "the corporate world wants the 3rd world to literally eat poop!

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ganjalo

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#54 ganjalo
Member since 2004 • 185 Posts


Now, ConAgra. I'll try to paraphrase my responses, because you said a lot here (sic). I know what information your opinion is based on (and if your opinion is based on biased primarily uncited Wikipedia pages then...), because I shared many of your views of ConAgra between 1999 and 2005. I read the information in zines, periodicals, record liner notes, and open public records What makes your (general) position skewed is the way in which you and others who share the same or similar views misinterpret statistics (to understand the statistics you quoted, you need to compare and contrast with what we could call the "business standard"). Sometimes, you (and others) go as far as believing and espousing information that is no longer valid or is rendered void due to business reform and/or federal regulation reform. You specifically don't seem to place your examples from Wikipedia into context when you consider them.
YourChaosIsntMe

"Sometimes, you...," you are putting words into my mouth again, I do not appreciate it. I am happy to backup or reconsider anything that I have said, but constantly correcting you for having attributed notions or such to me inaccurately is wearing on me


Likewise, the conclusion that you come to about ConAgra is values-based. It needs to be clear that while I make a generalization, it is only meant to imply that people, regardless of their ideology, tend to come to conclusions and develop ideas based upon their subjective values and morals, experiences, self-interested interpretation of statistics, and assumptions, whether they be anti-globalization anarchists or right-wing neocons.
YourChaosIsntMe

again you neglect to include the subject of your argument and I am thus disarmed against rebutting your argument. That said, you are more foolish than I thought if you believe that individuals regularly go through the thought process you described. Many people simply do not have the resources to investigate their choices in that manner and others are unwilling, while still others may in fact research all of their choices. I believe in the individual, but I do not believe that majority of people have put that degree of thought into whether they should buy Skippy or Peter Pan peanut butter


I'll approach these statistics one by one, and attempt to address each in two sentences or less. Environmental issues - One of the largest agribusiness firms is not carbon-efficient, duh. Oh, don't forget about the inconclusive nature of research concerning the net human effect on global warming vs environment factors...and...wait...the CERES report? Hahahahaha; when you research this, don't forget that Wikipedia is governed by popular opinion, not institutes, universities, and regulatory bodies. Don't forget one last thing: in terms of increased expenditures business tends to follows government. Labor issues: Oh my God, they laid some people off. You know what I love? Socialism and trade unionism. Mhmm. Some of the examples ConAgra should be criticized for, but a corporate entity (or individual) can never adhere to ethical and/or moral standards 100% of the time. Sorry.
YourChaosIsntMe

Is socialism a dirty word to you? Just asking... "duh" does not inspire me to be extra articulate in my own response. Is there a reason not to strive for 100%? It seems like a good cause to me.... I think I just figured it out. I was blocking it out because it was obvious why you would dislike me, but you HATE people don't you? You cannot stand them, that is why it is okay for "thousands" of people to be disgruntled based on policies you support and for others to lose their once stable jobs at a corporation you cheerlead, isn't it.


Health issues: There was a Salmonella outbreak you say? Dear lord, because that doesn't happen to at least four companies globally at least once a year. Oh look! The plants were nearly shut down half a dozen times. Citations needed? Hmmm, dubious. Wait, a citation...wait...WAIT A MINUTE....The Activist Group Center for Science in The Public Interest. You know crap like that is about as objective as Christian Science, right?
YourChaosIsntMe

Do you disagree that they could EASILY do MUCH better.


Ethical Issues: Again, no one person or entity can abide by ethical or moral standards 100% of the time (especially not moral standards). While many, many, many firms (including ConAgra) have disregarded ethical standards throughout history, the rate at which this occurs is becoming minimal, because it is becoming more taboo in Western culture. Wait...an historic building? Oh no. Wait...Multinational Monitor...a corporate watchdog group? I smell shenanigans on this Wikipedia page!
YourChaosIsntMe

Again, the Wikipedia page was for your benefit, I was already aware of its contents from sources more reputable than Wikipedia.


Genetically modified food? This is where you come off worst. Only selfish, arrogant, self-righteous, ignorant pseudo-intellectuals prostest against genetically modified food. It's so wrong dude. Well, tell that to the billions of people living below the poverty line that couldn't afford basic food staples if it weren't for the advancements in biology and chemistry (and the application of) that makes genetically modified food possible.
YourChaosIsntMe

GMO are not evil because natures goodness and purity should not be touched by the cold yet benevolent had of technology. Corn was modified to its current state by native South Americans and Californians and it is arguably one of the very most important crops in the world. What is wrong with companies like Conagra use of GMO is that they patent their product and seek out GMO attributes which have not been fully researched and are potentially ecologically and economically destructive. Two fields of wheat, one GMO, the other grown from seeds stored from the previous year. Winds and cross pollination can cause wheat in the second field to present attributes of the GMO as well as GMO seeds being transported in uncovered trucks which routinely spill into neighboring fields. Conagra tests fields near their own to ensure that others are not "stealing" their product. Conagra discovers their stolen GMO on the second farm and take the owner to court. They argue that the GMO is their property and that the other farm's seed supply has been contaminated with GMO seeds. The farmer is required to destroy their seed reserves to avoid patent infringement. The farmer then has no choice but to replace their crop with GMO which they can produce a receipt for. GMO are designed with terminator genes which causes them to be infertile, so the farmer must purchase new next year what they have always had for free in the past. Eventually costs become overwhelming and the farm is sold to Conagra at a loss. Try and tell me that does not suck, or does not happen....


Keep in mind that I didn't cite anything, and I didn't quote anything. The point remains, multinational agribusiness is not inherently bad (nor is it inherently good), and the local-only and anti-globalization movement is full of a bunch of True Believer wingnuts.
YourChaosIsntMe

I did note that you have not cited anything, meaning that all of your arguments are at this point based on hearsay. That next point sounds like a very opinionated and emotional plea to me... (I see it as a good thing that you care about the points you are arguing, so emotion is no problem so long as it is tempered by rational thought). I cannot help but feel that you are calling me a "True Believer Wingnut," which is okay, because I started the name calling, it is just that again you are posturing for others when you could just go ahead and tell me. And again you have not developed your ideas thoroughly enough for me to retort. Tell me, what are the qualities of a "True Believer Wingnut" and I will let you know if I feel your statement is accurate.


This is so a journal entry and a response. Yes, I save my better discussion post rambles in my journal. If you read it all, cool. If not, I don't really care. I compose these essays and ad hoc rambles for myself just as much as I do to elicit a response from others. Take it as you will. I'm done though man. I've got a research paper to write tomorrow. Too bad I can't ramble like this on that one...I'd get it done in a jiff.
YourChaosIsntMe

How am I supposed to interpret this fact that you save discussion threads; what is it supposed to mean to me? I would have suggested that you save it anyways, it is always amusing to see how we have grown by reexamining our past experiences. In this case let us hope that you look back and recognize substantial growth, at least in terms of your analytical writing. For your sake I hope your professors never encounter your work at this level of discourse :) .

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YourChaosIsntMe

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#55 YourChaosIsntMe
Member since 2007 • 1228 Posts

Each section is roughly in response to each of your sections.

The problem here is still your veiled hostility, and your assumption that I, like you, ultimately need to win this conversation (and yes, you make it that obvious). If you want this conversation to go anywhere, stop trying to win, and stop trying to belittle me. Stop vaguely referring to your maturity or wisdom without offering anything that validates such an assertion. You've also misinterpreted my hostility as posturing. Since this assumption seems to relate to a large portion of your response, what type of negative consequence can you see coming from that (in terms of the effect on the validity of your response)? One consistent criticism that you lodge against my argument, and my reasoning, is a failure to adequately explain thoughts, but what of your consistent refusal to acknowledge inarguable facts (or logical conclusions) that I posit? What of your inability to fully respond in any meaningful way? All of your responses are composed of a large percentage of insults and frivilous critiques, as if you believe that offering criticism can validate your position. Again, you commit hasty generalizations repeatedly. You continue to play semantics (and I did get a chuckle there, as a matter of fact). Through statements that you have made, I can logically infer that your perception of agribusiness and globalization is somewhat related to the anti-globalization movement. In your first response to me, you defended your position on locally grown foods. Unless you developed an entirely new perspective that is exclusive to you, generalizing in such a manner doesn't negate the possibility of productive discourse. You could have easily responded by pointing out the aspects of your perspective that differ from those whom willingly include themselves in a homogeneous group, and then continued to defend the aspects which do represent your position. Instead, you evaded the question by criticizing my generalization - when I clearly pointed out that generalizations made were for the purpose of simplicity's sake.

You appeared to be plagiarizing most of your opinions. Even now, you come off as someone that's consistently referring to a dictionary, a thesaurus, and Wikipedia to construct your argument. I am aware of the severity of such an accusation, but as this is an informal discussion it isn't really an issue. My biggest concern with your ability to reason is your apparent demand for discussions to exist in absolutes, and your consistent refusal to respond to my statements on the basis that they are either A. not absolutes or B. too vague. Instead of saying "what does he mean precisely?" you response is similar to those used to simplistically explain the Third Reich and tolerance of the Third Reich. Then, you make the illogical connection between this and a slippery slope. Again, if you were really as well-educated as you propose to be, you would be aware of the fact that, in general, the process of globalization will inevitably have a negative impact on a small percentage of American business owners and employees, and in the opinion of just about everyone who's opinion matters or might matter in the future, this is necessary and tolerable for long term growth in the global market.

Woefully, it seems like instead of considering all of my responses, you rush through my posts in an effort to respond. I will forgive you for the misunderstanding. I say this in relation to your reiteration about extraneous topics. I never implied that you had brought up either topic, they were simply musings on the less intelligent and rational members of of various movements (that are closely aligned with your original position). Instead of interpreting these statements correctly, you take them as criticism of you yourself. It seems like so much of this conflict is consistenly influenced by your refusal to have a conversation that exists outside of the realm of control and influence, or winning and losing. You so often become predisposed with posturing and attempting to gain the upper-hand that you marginalize some of my sentiments, and simply refuse to offer a rebuttal to others (you seem to selectively choose which statements to refute). Now you're getting even worse; rather than composing a myriad of relevant responses, you're taking specific phrases and offering quips in response. For example, you quoted my statement about productivity rates, and then responded as if you had stated the opposite, and even made a sarcastic comment about it. Do you literally fail to understand when someone is using information as emphasis? This is the second time that you have failed to catch this. It is not "commentary on the obvious," at least not for many people.

Maybe I was implying that you're obtuse? I wasn't implying that you need to go from point A to point B without divergence. If I thought that this was the case, I wouldn't be talking to you. I was simply pointing out that you seem to focus on the individual human aspect of this discussion (and I would assume that you do so generally). Rather than focusing on millions, you are focusing on 1,000, or 20,000, or 100,000 (and more if you're considering the plight of the developing world). You also seem to be basing all of your ideas in this conversation on the assumption that A.the current economic system is broken or inadequate, B. Your opinions are inherently more rational, and thus correct, and C. a more sustainable and equitable option exists. Again, you seem to think in either/or, at least in this conversation.

Instead of actually addressing my statement, and recognizing your mistake, you reassert what you appear to believe is your near-omnipotence (in terms of my motive). I wish that you could understand why you sound ignorant when you make certain statements. You're undermining my education is Psychology again, thank you. That entire statement that you have expressed your analysis on twice? You still fail to interpret it correctly; instead of focusing on my supposed identity crisis, how about reading over it again? Then, consider your opinion, consider my opinion, and think about the words "relatability" and "manipulation." Most individuals who subscribe to radical ideas, regardless of political orientation, generally refuse to listen to those whom oppose them. Expressing my history of political activism usually lends credence to my opinion in discussion with various strands of political activists. Your conclusion assumes that my criticism for said ideas is a reflection of an identity crisis. I don't think you understand what an identity crisis is.

On the issue of posturing. Do you believe that posturing through telling me that I'm posturing numerous times will eventually make this assertion true? You seem to have misinterpreted my statement about fairness and the question of PMs in my first paragraph. Another fallacy on your part. I checked none of your sources on this one actually, if my memory serves me correctly (I did on others). This statement actually magnifies your predisposition to think in linear and obtuse terms. This time, you have shown a clear misunderstanding for the purpose of dictionaries and encyclopedias. Neither are meant to provide a complete explanation of a philosophical concept. Your only response to my statement about utopia (the correction of what it "actually meant") was posturing on your part. Because of this, I assumed that your definition of utopia, and understanding of the concept, was misinformed. If you did not want me to assume this, you should have considered a more thoughtful and intelligent response to begin with. Utopia is a philosophical construct. A dictionary does not have enough room to consider utopia in it's entirety, nor does Wikipedia (though Wikipedia certainly comes closer). You have made another arrogant assumption. I don't need to prove you wrong on this topic, I hope that you understand this. My understanding of Utopia is concise, and as to your statement that it's common knowledge...a lot of things are common knowledge in simplified form, dumbed down for the lowest-common denominator so people can "kind of understand" when they read it in Oxford's. Again, my understanding of utopia is rooted in the work of Thomas Moore, and necessarily incorporates further philosophical discourse on the topic. You're more interested in proving me wrong than providing me with an opinion - or a personality that I can legitimately respect as an intelligent peer. Keep saying posturing though, eventually it will mean that I actually am (ironically, you have been posturing since your first rebuttal to my response about locally-grown produce). Cleverly, you've disguised said posturing behind a feigned lofty disposition, but your behaviour belies this maturity repeatedly.

One of the common themes in our discussion has been progress in terms of the equatability of globalized capitalism and agribusiness. I assumed that you would have been clever enough to come to the conclusion that I was referring to this topic, provided the previous sentences make a direct connection with our initial subject matter. Instead, you again use my haste to complete my post to avoid actually addressing the statement, even though you and I both know that with a little analyzation, the meaning of the statement would have been clear. Likewise, the portion of my statement that quoted follows a statement that makes what I am implying very clear.

The issue of suburban sprawl should have been over. We have concluded that you misinterpreted my intent. You continue to express yourself arrogantly, and without merit. Did you really need to act like I'm not aware of the fact that suburban sprawl is a consequence of various factors? Sometimes you come off as exceptionally intelligent, and at other times you come off as petty and obtuse. You are very...peculiar.

You introduced and supported the locally-grown movement, which shares a number of connections with the anti-globalization movement (in terms of participants and NGOs/NPOs. Does your perspective on this subject not share many tenets with said movement? The hostility is flaring up again. I directly stated that I do not believe that you are obtuse enough to subscribe to any of the aforementioned movements. I presented a short but concise juxtaposition between people like you and I and those whom subscribe to any given movement as True Believers. I had the explicit intent of not grouping you in with any given movement, but I did draw comparisons between said movement and your ideas (though I did call you a wingnut, but that was more of a potshot than anything else). What I was implying is that your slippery slope correlates with that of the larger anti-globalization movement. It is not a specific slippery slope, but one which has a variable starting point, though said starting point is relatively constant in it's theme (it always concerns some government action, or some multinational corporation). Likewise, consequences vary in specific effect and order of consequences. I was implying that it is always a slippery slope to state that globalization and produce importation/exportation have a net negative effect and various consequences. I was stating that most considerations of this subject often disregard primary factors, and thus produce a slippery slope fallacy leading to the conclusion (which is always the negative impact of globalization or one of it's outlying effects, such as the marginalization of privately owned farms and organic/locally-grown movements). The slippery slope usually concludes with the same consequence, regardless of the preceeding variables. You have continually used this situation as a way to avoid a relevant response. Instead of responding as you have, it would have been more productive to say "would you please clarify?" Next time, say "you know, I couldn't really interpret this part, could you clarify before I respond?" I will do that if such a case arises.

Again, you made it obvious that you do not understand the concept of the slippery slope; you even defined it incorrectly in your last response in your haste to express your opinion. You already made the mistake of making it obvious to me that you had not even considered the slippery slope before our discussion, or only discussed it in passing during whatever degree of education you have completed (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe the latter). Your definition of slippery slope was taken directly from Wikipedia, and your personal thoughts on the matter were simply incorrect. The argument that you were somehow considering my interests when choosing Wikipedia is feeble, and you know it. I made it clear to you that my understanding of logical fallacies and applied ethics transcends the limited overview on Wikipedia. I'm sorry, but what I said about the slippery slope stands.

Wikipedia is disreputable. If you had a history in academia you would know this. We both know that your reasoning for using Wikipedia is a lie. If you had been aware of this information previously, you would not have referred to Wikipedia. This paragraph is the definition of posturing, but I'm sure you already recognize that, and anticipate this very response (in fact, I'm inclined to believe that your consistent reference to posturing is meant to be commentary on this entire conversation, and both of it's participants...are you that clever?) Likewise, my attack on your educational background has little to do with discrediting your opinion in the eyes of the passive observer. You offered an explanation of the slippery slope that was so misinformed that, regardless of your arrogance, I don't need you to concede defeat. I literally laughed out loud when you tried to explain logical fallacies to me with authority. I am interested in your educational background.

The interesting thing is that you have come to another conclusion while still undermining the scope and objectivity of my perspective. You took a few vague criticisms as a reflection of my character - while you originally referenced The Yes Men in a hostile fashion, which naturally lead me to believe that much of their work coincides with your perspective. Does it not? If not, in which way does your appraisal of corporate culture differ? Regardless of how you define The Yes Men, the vast majority of people who appreciated it or reacted to it were observers, not those whom were being critiqued. This is ultimately why I considered it banal. Any time anyone (an artist, a group, an author...) tries to evoke a response from others who disagree with them or live a lifestyle which is the polar opposite to their own through such methods, their work is banal because it accomplishes nothing, it is pandering to the converted and agitating others. This says nothing about my socio-political perspective, because I feel the same way about all such movements, groups, or individuals, regardless of their affiliations of beliefs. Your musings on this subject are predicated by your misunderstanding of my position, and your inability to understand my motive (or refusal to to address it because doing so makes rebuttal easier?)

I used the inclusive "you," which may or may not include you. not the exclusive. The only time I used the exclusive "you" was in the last two sentences. One in relation to your use of wiki sources, and the other in relation to your use of gross use of hyperbole in relation to ConAgra. Likewise, the inclusive "you" was used to connect your ideas concerning locally-grown food products with the anti-globalization movement at large, which incorporates just about every idea that you have expressing concerning the subject. Stop being arrogant. Regardless of this, it was rather crass for me to do so in this paragraph, considering that I could have addressed the issue of misinformation or disinformation without grouping you with any specific movement.

Do you not recognize your own use of disarming suppositions? It essentially means that I don't believe that your use of inductive or deductive reasoning are entirely sound when coming to your conclusions about the locally grown produce, private farms, and agribusiness. You're foolish if you thought that I meant that individuals go through that process literally in the decisions that they make. Whether they have the interest to research or not is irrelevant. I feel like I need to spell things out for you. Some people do research and investigate their choices. Some of these people are objective in their process of reasoning. More are not, and thus even when educted, some come to conclusions based upon some, all, or more factors than were listed. Most, regardless of their resources (material or otherwise), generally come to conclusions based upon some of the factors listed (values, morals, assumptions, experiences) while occasionally analyzing factors, stakeholders, their subjectivity,and bias, etc. All of these things can influence your choices in seconds. While they often register this process, emotion is often more powerful than reason for many (if not most). This is probably the most dynamic group in terms of variability. Then there are those people who generally act on instinct. I do not believe many people consider their choices of peanut butter based upon research and investigation either. When did I say that? The individual? What do you imply? I assume that's not a euphemism for anything and take it at face value. Do you mean humanist? Anarchism? Existentialism? the inate importance of man? You have faith in man? That is too vague. I believe the individual is typically simplistic and predictable.

No, it was a joke. I support the integration of socialist tenets into the republican/parliamentary and capitalist system, with prudence. I was mocking the banality of your source's information. I don't dislike you at all, not to say that I particularly like you, but I'd have to say you're more fun than most. Is this a joke? I mean..you're not really capable of such fallacious reasoning, are you? Societies and individuals often must make choices for the greater good of all the stakeholders. I still don't understand why you can't grasp this inevitable facet of the human condition? In answer to your other question, no, I'm not a sociopath.

I already told you that...numerous time. I also cited one of ConAgra's dubious business practices in my first post (when I initiated the discussion of ConAgra). So yeah..D- on reading comprehension.

Wait, wait, wait...so there's a correlation between the genetically modified product and contract law? Yeah...this is an issue of contract law and tort law. So why not just bring up this unethical practice rather than refer to genetically modified produce? Why not remove the hyperbole? Do you have the citations on the terminator genes from a reputable research institute or academic journal? This is the single interesting point of interest that you brought up about ConAgra (the rest of it I was spewing out of my mouth myself). Which makes me wonder why you posted everything that I clearly stated that I was aware of anyway. What was the purpose of redundancy?

True Believer is a non-fiction book assigned to every philosophy student since...1971? Yeah, it was a self-deprecating joke. You weren't really supposed to respond. It's called informality...personability. Instead of taking the time to write all the html constantly quoting me, why not write something substantial?

Are you taking the mickey?

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muthsera666

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#56 muthsera666
Member since 2005 • 13271 Posts
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at these two. On topic, I might be going to f.y.e. today to get some more used games. If not today, I'll definitely be going to f.y.e. and GameStop tomorrow! Hopefully I can add to my game collection!!
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YourChaosIsntMe

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#57 YourChaosIsntMe
Member since 2007 • 1228 Posts
[QUOTE="muthsera666"]I don't know whether to laugh or cry at these two. On topic, I might be going to f.y.e. today to get some more used games. If not today, I'll definitely be going to f.y.e. and GameStop tomorrow! Hopefully I can add to my game collection!!

It's good times. Some people are entertained by different things. The two of us are obviously entertained by the back and forth. To each their own, right? I was under the impression that the two of us were the only people still in this thread anyway. On topic, I plan to do so myself as well (Mass Effect and Skate are now officially affordable). I may not go though, because there are a number of independent/small-scale games for download that I want. Flower, My Life as a King, Braid...why not pick some of these up instead? What are you going to buy?
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#58 ganjalo
Member since 2004 • 185 Posts

"Out of hand" has transitioned to "completely ridiculous," so I am changing gears (though I am certain I will not be able to resist responding to a few things from your last post. Sorry but you will have to look back to determine context).

It is obvious that I am trolling more than a little bit. Though we do not agree, you do not have to take my strongly worded derisive attacks that seriously, at least not the derisive part.

The purpose of discourse has come into question. To my mind, one cannot win or lose a conversation, in a conversation people share ideas and potentially come to agreements. One cannot win or lose an argument; one could persuade others to their point, be persuaded, or reach a point of mutual disagreement agreed irresolvable at the present. And pig-headed-shouting matches like ours, well... at least there are no winners :) .

The statement about winning aside, to try is to attempt, if you will look back you will find that I was belittling you, not trying to belittle you (which you imply is dependent on your reception of the comments, but in fact simply requires me to be rude).

Obviously I disagree that your assertions are "inarguable facts (or logical conclusions)[.]" For one to define one's own argument in these terms is somehow distasteful in my mind.

Frivolous, not "frivilous," I left in a lot of little errors to (Get it? to/too!) but I bring this one up because "frivilous" is not phonetic. Here is the first time I have used a dictionary for any of our conversation, here because it has an audio pronunciation guide: http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?frivol05.wav=frivolous say it with me, "frivolous." Insults and derision will not support my argument, but through the anonymity of the internet, I think we can agree that they can be fun, even cathartic (in a stretched sense of the word).

Here I switch out of gear to respond that supporting local produce does not necessitate anti-globalization. Since you brought up globalization independently, I never thought to clarify. I have commented briefly on negative impacts not readily perceptible to the uninformed observer, but no, I do not want to go out and sink all the cargo ships... but that might look cool, they should do it in a movie in cinemascope (exceptionally wide aspect ratio)! Okay! It sounds like I am back in gear.

You have a very loose definition of plagiarism. If I told you that I love Pringles and that once I open a can I cannot stop eating them, would you tell me that I was plagiarizing their slogan? I have opinions of my own, some are similar to other's opinions, and yet this is not plagiarism. Perhaps you should dig out the dictionary on this one.

Thesaurus? No, I am not using one, nor a dictionary, nor Wikipedia (beyond where cited). I will choose to take the thesaurus comment as a complement on my vocabulary, the dictionary as to the accuracy of my use of speech, and Wikipedia as to your own need to fact check because, yes you should fact check all of this yourself anyways.

Third Reich, I knew this would come up some how. Okay, here it goes: "No! You are the Nazi, you Nazi!" (5 minute brake to laugh my ass off)

Okay, another break from my amusements, who is the arbiter of whose opinions matter? I know that I have not gone out of my way to cite real world sources for my convictions, but then again, I have not made blanket statements like this one. My original position was a single bullet point on the agendas of such movements as those you have mentioned. I do not believe that is enough justification to lump me with them.

Of course I selectively chose which statements to refute, you may not have noticed but that last post was 18 pages long when put into a word processing document.

A. "inadequate" means "unable to meet needs" (I am not using a dictionary, so if you want to use one you can correct me if I am wrong). I do not believe that you will argue that there are not people out there with needs not fulfilled by the economy (so may negatives in that sentence it can be hard to wrap your head around). B. My opinions are based on my experience and education followed by contemplative reflection, and that is why I believe them to be correct, not because they are more rational. C. We will never know until we try.

Omnipotence means absolute power; I believe you meant omniscience which means absolutely knowledge. With omniscience I would know your motives; with omnipotence I would dictate your motives.

Your history adds about as much credence to your current platform as one black person at a GOP convention. Without supporting how and why your beliefs changed, it simply sounds foolish to bring it up. I believe that a person who has fully transitioned from one ideology to another should be able to speak of the two using concrete terms rather than opinionated statements of the foolhardy actions of those poor, simple, ignorant, people whom have not seen the light like you have.

Sorry for calling you out publicly for posturing, as I said before, the message was meant to be private until I discovered it was too long. I do acknowledge that in public view this does seem as though I would have you and others question your validity based on this: it was not intended.
Defining utopia is not posturing, especially when the accurate definition of the word has come into question. "[A] clear misunderstanding for the purpose of dictionaries and encyclopedias[?]" My point was that you cannot expect that I was using a subtle and more obscure interpretation of "utopic" when the most common, most accepted definition is not only contextually correct, but makes more sense than the variant. Not enough room in the dictionary to explain philosophical implications? More like the dictionary is not the appropriate place for this. Not enough room on Wikipedia? I have already acknowledged that it is not a scholarly academic source but in theory, I do not believe Wikipedia's storage space is bound by any limits that we could realistically encounter when storing text and small pictures.

"My understanding of Utopia is concise, and as to your statement that it's common knowledge...a lot of things are common knowledge in simplified form, dumbed down for the lowest-common denominator so they can "kind of understand" when they read it in Oxford's." This sounds very cynical and if you have a concise understanding then that contradicts your assertion that an understanding of utopia could not fit in various reference sources.
Irony is when you use words to denotes something other than their literal interpretation, you misused it once in this post and once in the last.

"You introduced and supported the locally-grown movement, which shares a number of connections with the anti-globalization movement (in terms of participants and NGOs/NPOs. Does your perspective on this subject not share many tenets with said movement?" No. With a single bullet point you are not aware of my full perspective, and you know what happens when you assume... and i did not introduce any movement, i simply said it would be responsible to buy local tomatoes, way back when...

Transcendent is not exactly the adjective I would use to describe you.

"I'm sorry, but what I said about the slippery slope stands." Did you mean to say "peaceful standing on a level field, but I am right, so you can suck it!"?

Interest in my educational background aside, on a still day I can pee 5.5 feet.

Something is banal because it is obvious and boring, not "because it accomplishes nothing." Not using a dictionary, it is just something people should know. Furthermore, jumping to conclusions as you do will not serve you well in your minor. Also, to describe something "interesting," but also as "banal" is conflicted at best.

You ought to be careful with the "inclusive 'you'" when directly addressing someone. The proper way to share such thoughts without confusion is to replace 'you' with 'one.'

Following a rhetorical question with a sentence identifying the subject simply as "It" is not advisable. You would do better to define your subject than assume that the reader has guessed it. I did guess it, but just the same...

"I believe the individual is typically simplistic and predictable." I believe that your beliefs, if not reassessed, will cause you to be unhappy and lonely. Why do I have to be an 'ist' or part of an 'ism.' My answer is that I do not, you see, I am an individual.

While "fallacious" may fit in context, I do not believe it is the most apt question because if you substituted "fallacious" with "facetious" you would get to the hart of the matter. And yes, I am being quite exaggeratedly facetious.

"D- on reading comprehension." Reading comprehension tests are administered using well written, focused, and syntactically correct texts. I would question the value of using any of your comments thus far to assess someone.

The point was never OMG GMO's are the worst, the point was that the way Conagra has utilized GMO's is shameful.
HTML is about the simplest code around, to quote you I simply copied your post, then copy/pasted code amounting to about 2 tags (I forget if this is the right term or not) wherever I wanted to offer a response.

What is "taking the mickey?"

You are 1 in a 1000, "thank you" YourChaosIsntMe

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YourChaosIsntMe

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#59 YourChaosIsntMe
Member since 2007 • 1228 Posts

I will respond later, I have various responsibilities this afternoon. Yes, it is cathartic. Interestingly, I included a statement concerning the cathartic nature of arguments, disagreements, insults, and posturing, though I removed it.

while I will edit and respond, it needs to be clear that your continued posturing is apparent and obnoxious. Why not take a different approach? I'm literally exhausted by your continued use of the word "posture" in relation to my behavior. I will not address this specific subject again unless you refrain from posturing and I continue to do so.

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#60 moha1992
Member since 2009 • 25 Posts
i think that your message is to long with out of meaning
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muthsera666

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#61 muthsera666
Member since 2005 • 13271 Posts

[QUOTE="muthsera666"]I don't know whether to laugh or cry at these two. On topic, I might be going to f.y.e. today to get some more used games. If not today, I'll definitely be going to f.y.e. and GameStop tomorrow! Hopefully I can add to my game collection!!YourChaosIsntMe
It's good times. Some people are entertained by different things. The two of us are obviously entertained by the back and forth. To each their own, right? I was under the impression that the two of us were the only people still in this thread anyway. On topic, I plan to do so myself as well (Mass Effect and Skate are now officially affordable). I may not go though, because there are a number of independent/small-scale games for download that I want. Flower, My Life as a King, Braid...why not pick some of these up instead? What are you going to buy?

I got BeatDown: Fists of Vengeance, Dead to Rights II, Hunter the Reckoning: Redeemer, Mafia, Metal Arms: Glitch in the System, and X-Men Legends II: Rise of Apocalypse. I got back and checked scores; I thought BeatDown get better reviews than it did...

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#62 ganjalo
Member since 2004 • 185 Posts

I will respond later, I have various responsibilities this afternoon. Yes, it is cathartic. Interestingly, I included a statement concerning the cathartic nature of arguments, disagreements, insults, and posturing, though I removed it.

while I will edit and respond, it needs to be clear that your continued posturing is apparent and obnoxious. Why not take a different approach? I'm literally exhausted by your continued use of the word "posture" in relation to my behavior. I will not address this specific subject again unless you refrain from posturing and I continue to do so.

YourChaosIsntMe

I am out of steam, which is why i stopped arguing and began to simply offer harsh critiques, it is evident that we have reached the point of mutual disagreemnent where we must acknowldge that at the present our differences cannot be reconciled. That long one went on and on so i see why you may have confused some of it with my more recent post. In my last post I mentioned posturing only once in order to acknoledge that it was in poor taste to call you out publicly, and that doing so publicly made it appear that i was posturing myself, again, I appologise. by all means have the last words when you are ready.

I was glad to read through your other posts that you have been as amused as I have.

How did your research paper go? Do you need a proof reader? Just kidding... or am i?

Peace.

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#63 ericpol
Member since 2006 • 370 Posts

To me this is simple make better games and release good dlc and people wouldn't trade in their games thereby less used games to buy.

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#64 jamacian_zombie
Member since 2008 • 310 Posts

I save money by buying used video games. I really don't care if a fav goes out of the biz, cause they'll be replaced.

Unless it's Valve.

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muthsera666

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#65 muthsera666
Member since 2005 • 13271 Posts

To me this is simple make better games and release good dlc and people wouldn't trade in their games thereby less used games to buy.

ericpol
But I don't have access to DLC. Even if I had a current-gen console, I don't have broadband internet access.
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#66 YourChaosIsntMe
Member since 2007 • 1228 Posts

It's been a few days, but I said I would respond. :)

Taking the mickey is English slang, which means "to screw with" or "mess with."

I don't really seek the last word per se, so I will avoid offering any rebuttals, only responses or musings, hahaha. I was growing tired of the asinine bickering myself. You're precisely right, and I'm glad you recognized how that response was mere posturing.

One cannot win or lose a conversation in discourse, though wouldn't you agree that in a sociological context, an individual can win an argument?

Defining my own assertions as such was simply exaggeration rather than a statement of my educated opinion, as you probably recognized.

I don't imagine that you actually believe that I don't know how to spell frivolous. Sometimes in the heat of battle, the best of us become incorrigible grammar Nazis, hahaha. In relation to irony, you either have a linear definition of irony or you're just taking the mickey. I'm sure you're aware of the entire definition of "irony," so I won't repeat it. I don't quite remember how I used it, but if I remember correctly, I implied the existence of socratic irony. I think you misinterpreted my use of banal. I'm quite positive that I used banal correctly, and I would argue against the assertion that interesting and banal are exclusive in relation to art. I'm sure that you could infer that I was aware of the diference between omnipotent and omniscient based upon my academic background and general diction before pointing out my mistake, hahaha. I understand the "rules" of educated discussions and scholarly research. My use of the inclusive "you" rather than "one" was intended to incite. On the topic of my "D-..." comment, well, I would have respected you less if I didn't get a response disparaging my style, grammar, and syntax. In fact, I would have probably provided a similar response to such a snide comment. Even so, I thought it was funny.

No, you see, I legitimately believed that you were plagiarizing Wikipedia and/or other sources, and only occasionally citing or quoting.

Come on. You know exactly what I meant by that. If you didn't, it was a reference to the "how many lives is it worth?" discussion that really began to develop after the downfall of the Third Reich, though it may lie in populist American history. "10,000? 100,000?" When I believe that this argument is, and always will be, tainted by sensationalism and hyperbole.

I was implying that you chose specific points (or a group of points) that were easier to rebuttal, or more easily manipulated to accommodate the theme of your response.

A. The dictionary does state this, but the dictionary doesn't take into account the variability of applying such a word, nor should it. The only way to develop a metric based on adequacy or inadequacy is in a comparison between states using various factors or measurements. There is no black and white on the topic of political theory, anthropology, or sociology, but I'm sure you already know that. ;) B. Meh, that's all of us (err..20% of us) C. I can't even remember what this is in response to, and I don't really feel like scrolling up/back and figuring it out.

Again, the semantics! Your response to my statement about the dictionary is absurd. You're just screwing around with the interpretation of phrases and words. You responded almost as if I'm criticizing the dictionary and Wikipedia. There is no conflict between the definition found in Wikipedia and/or various dictionaries with the consideration of "utopia" on scholarly or academic grounds. The "variant" is no variant at all, but simply expounds the textbook definition. Finally, you know perfectly well that I wasn't talking about server efficiency or anything else related to capacity in my comment about Wikipedia.

I still stand by my position on our argument about the slippery slope.

But you understood what the subject was? Well, I assumed you would. When I'm talking to an idiot, I'll make sure to include the subject with a proper noun.

You have often been facetious, I agree. This is why I have asked you "are you taking the mickey?"

My point remains: why not remove the hyperbole (in fact, why not remove the hyperbole on the Wiki page itself) and discuss the actual issues here - tort law, contract law, and property law. Maybe I should edit it myself....

No, you're 1 in 1000. Now I'm taking the mickey.

For the record, I believe that as time progresses and the general oversight of Wikipedia develops, the site is become a more reputable source, scholarly or otherwise. I have even noticed some professors who are beginning to accept Wikipedia pages as sources, with reservations (sources of the Wikipedia author(s) work is often required as well). ConAgra's page is the perfect example of the dubious nature of Wikipedia; it seems that many of the sources used are either "liberal" in nature or outright anti-globalization. The sources of the work undermines the entire entry.

Anyway, I would enjoy discussing business ethics, corporate responsibility, globalization, and the various business models utilized in the various facets of the agriculture industry using sources (a conversation I intended to create with my initial response after the advertising discussion).

So, are we friends?