Female Representation In Video Games - Stereotyped, Sexualized and Objectified
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]how? please do tell...Pedro
The foundation of most cultures are based on women being property or as an object. From Islam to Christianity to Greek Mythology. Read the history of any modern day society and the objectification (real word?) of women is blatant because it was the norm and to a great the degree still the norm. I don't know why the sudden shock of such a statement is news to anyone. "Woment being sexualised....Gasp I am shocked. I would have never guess." Come on people, lets be real. What is truly shocking is counter arguments trying to make men out as being equally victimized by this sexualisation. :|
and where women who complained about this for centuries? really it's been in the last 100 years that this changed. what was it technology? is that it? what has changed that in the last 1,000+ years that for women to suddenly stand up and say "i don't wanna be sexualized!". you cannot tell me that in the last 1,000+ in all societies across the globe that woman were so treated as property or as objects that they couldn't speak up? men have had their strength and their wits as their assets, women have had their physical beauty to rely on. they didn't even need to apply their wits, their beauty alone could transfix men. and we see it in how the genders are attracted to the opposite. Please don't fall on the "socialization" argument, because we see it in virtually every culture regardless of location. and the accusation of women were treated as objects really is to stupefying simplify history. Ask a woman today, if she were born a peasent in 15th century would she like to work in the coal mines like her husband/father or mind the home, she'll take the home. and even when the industrial revolution began, women were given tasks of loading coal onto a moving conveyer belt. a task considered light duty. never mind that safety was considered far more for women's sake then it ever was for the men. were taught to just suck it up, were the men, but we always look after the women. and yet you turn around and still simplify history and say we treated them always and only as property. different times and different environments. and the only reason i hear people bring this argument up is because it suits their position to do so. the environment changed and women gained their rights. mind you, from the men who had all the power.... the sexualization of men and women persists in all mediums, don't pretend you've never walked into a book store, music section (listened to the music), art, movies and tv shows. and don't pretend that the sexualization is based soley on whether or not the person is showing some skin either. women are known to not be as visually oriented as men, it's not simply because their socialized to be so either. it's an evolutionary trait. no i'm not shocked at women being sexualized, not at all, not in the slightest. but the same is happening to men, it's just that the men don't have to tear their shirt off to be in women's thoughts. you wanna make the point that beautiful women succeed in life when they shouldn't? it's the same for men. a taller man is likeier to get paid more then a shorter man. a bald man is likelier to get paid less then a man with a full head of hair. these are a statistical facts. but nobody gives a $hit because that's not feminism. Really the major feats for female equality have been achieved in the West, and the only persistent danger is female reproductive rights - atleast it seems so in the USA. Now it's all about b*tching about how a pixelated woman is done in a video game about fighters beating the snot out of each other.... and you seem to keep driving at the point that male sexualization is based on how much skin he shows off or how he poses, when i'll say one last time, no it's not.
[QUOTE="Articuno76"]The sexualisation of men is something I just don't see in videogames. At least not from a woman's perspective. This may lead many people to believe that men are not sexualised, but this ignores the reality that sexualisation for women is a little more complex than what it is for men; as a result it goes by as the unnoticed guilty pleasure of women the world over (when it is done). For all we know, men are sexualised all the time and we simply don't see it.Pedro
The reason we don't see it is because it practically doesn't exist. The closest I have seen is a male Castanic in Tera and even then its muted by the sexualization of the females. I don't understand why folks are pretending as if this does not exist or try to make claims that males suffer the same fate. When was the last time you see any video game with a half naked man strutting his bulge? Anyone? When was the last time you saw a half naked chick strutting her bulge?
Those wouldn't be fair comparisons because those aren't 'sexualisations' to a woman, they're comic exaggerations. A sexualised male character would not be the same as a sexualised female character because a sexualised male charater (and what women find attractive in men in the first place) are not things that are readily visible (though can sometimes be deduced from visual cues). I'd agree that (at least in videogames) there isn't much sexualisation of male characters (not surprising because most of those characters are written by men who wouldn't know how to write such a character).However I do feel that sexualised male portrayals are extremely common in general, and because they aren't visually sexualised by blatant and recognisable cues (because those cues, at least taken alone, don't do it for women anyway) it goes by unnoticed. Take porn for instance, men watch it, women read it. Does that make the sexualisations of men in women's media any less sexualised simply because we can't sense that it is there or can't overtly see it? I'm not so sure.
and where women who complained about this for centuries? really it's been in the last 100 years that this changed. what was it technology? is that it? what has changed that in the last 1,000+ years that for women to suddenly stand up and say "i don't wanna be sexualized!". you cannot tell me that in the last 1,000+ in all societies across the globe that woman were so treated as property or as objects that they couldn't speak up? men have had their strength and their wits as their assets, women have had their physical beauty to rely on. they didn't even need to apply their wits, their beauty alone could transfix men. and we see it in how the genders are attracted to the opposite. Please don't fall on the "socialization" argument, because we see it in virtually every culture regardless of location. and the accusation of women were treated as objects really is to stupefying simplify history. Ask a woman today, if she were born a peasent in 15th century would she like to work in the coal mines like her husband/father or mind the home, she'll take the home. and even when the industrial revolution began, women were given tasks of loading coal onto a moving conveyer belt. a task considered light duty. never mind that safety was considered far more for women's sake then it ever was for the men. were taught to just suck it up, were the men, but we always look after the women. and yet you turn around and still simplify history and say we treated them always and only as property. different times and different environments. and the only reason i hear people bring this argument up is because it suits their position to do so. the environment changed and women gained their rights. mind you, from the men who had all the power.... the sexualization of men and women persists in all mediums, don't pretend you've never walked into a book store, music section (listened to the music), art, movies and tv shows. and don't pretend that the sexualization is based soley on whether or not the person is showing some skin either. women are known to not be as visually oriented as men, it's not simply because their socialized to be so either. it's an evolutionary trait. no i'm not shocked at women being sexualized, not at all, not in the slightest. but the same is happening to men, it's just that the men don't have to tear their shirt off to be in women's thoughts. you wanna make the point that beautiful women succeed in life when they shouldn't? it's the same for men. a taller man is likeier to get paid more then a shorter man. a bald man is likelier to get paid less then a man with a full head of hair. these are a statistical facts. but nobody gives a $hit because that's not feminism. Really the major feats for female equality have been achieved in the West, and the only persistent danger is female reproductive rights - atleast it seems so in the USA. Now it's all about b*tching about how a pixelated woman is done in a video game about fighters beating the snot out of each other.... and you seem to keep driving at the point that male sexualization is based on how much skin he shows off or how he poses, when i'll say one last time, no it's not. SaudiFury
Firstly you are conveniently deviating from the subject at hand to topics that are not the core of the discussion at hand.
In a society dominated by men, a women complaining or even voicing her opinion was generally unheard of. Society dictates behaviour and it was generally considered to be out of place for a woman to speak when a man is speaking and in some cases voice their opinion on matters. Also the notion of women having sexual desires and gaining sexual pleasure was unthinkable (early british). During the same time women; because they were the property of men, could not be aided if the aid require the removal of clothing such as for surgeries because the woman was not allowed to expose any part of her body outside of her husband. The very foundation of both western and eastern (no middle?) world is based on women being subservient to men and the property of men. The main draw to this ownership was based on sex. They were a sex object. Generally men are not treated or viewed in the same manner. One can always agrue that Greece was the exception :o.
I see your scenario of a woman born a peasent in 15th century. Firstly the option would not be given to her. Secondly women were viewed to be inferior to men especially physically and thirdly because of the second other men would not be willing to work in the coal mines with a woman. Now I don't get wants the point of all of this or your analogy. We are talking about the sexualization of women and I not getting the connection here. Besides women are still fighting for equal opportunity. Yes they have more options and the ground is a bit more even with opportunity and respect but its not fully there. But again, where does this lies with regards to the topic at hand. We talking about women being more than just a sex object in video game not equal rights and opportunity.
Yes the sexualization of men and women exist but you are pretending as if the variance between the two are negligible when they are not. Almost everything shown in ads, movies, sitcoms, videogames etc are heavily grounded in the sexualisation of women not men. Pretending as if its on equal footing is mindboogling. Even ads for women are sexualizing women. :D And obviously showing skin is not the only criteria for the sexualising of a person however, it is the easiest and most frequently used. And lets not do the pretending again, games are geared mainly towards men and the vast majority of these games cater for men. With that said how can you or anyone claim or imply that the sexualising of men is on the same level as women?
[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"] You should develop some critical thinking skills then because it's obvious that he's sexualized and part of the male stereotype in games as well. You know all those women that he sexed up along the way? Are you trying to say that because he's a male and all he cares about is killing and sexing that it's different just because he's not a woman? Along with all of the other muscle bound, unbuttoned shirt , tight clothing male heroes in games, male characters are over sexualized and overly violent compared to real people. Again, they are pixels not people. They don't need us to defend them.
Pedro
Kratos being sexualised has to be the most ridiculous statement I have read in gaming. Kratos? Are freaking serious? Kratos? :| I guess one can definitely argue that Kratos is sexualised in the same manner as Bayonetta :|. (love Bayonetta and wouldn't change any of the sexualization of her)
If you use your reading skills on that again, I never said that he was as sexualized as Bayonetta, but that he was sexualized compared to real life. If you are going to cherry pick the outliers, okay, he's way more sexualized than Jade from Beyond Good & Evil. That line of thinking work for you?If you use your reading skills on that again, I never said that he was as sexualized as Bayonetta, but that he was sexualized compared to real life. If you are going to cherry pick the outliers, okay, he's way more sexualized than Jade from Beyond Good & Evil. That line of thinking work for you?guynamedbilly
Seems as if the core or the starting point of every argument is based on some IMAGINERY inefficiency of the person you are responding to. Well care to explain which part of the Kratos character exudes sexy? If Kratos is the best you can do out of the supposed equal distribution of sexualising as women then your argument is rather fragile.
[QUOTE="Haziqonfire"]Female Representation In japanese Video Games - Stereotyped, Sexualized and ObjectifiedBlack_Knight_00Fixed It's not just Japanese games. A lot of western games mold female characters into stereotypical, sexualized roles too.
Those wouldn't be fair comparisons because those aren't 'sexualisations' to a woman, they're comic exaggerations. A sexualised male character would not be the same as a sexualised female character because a sexualised male charater (and what women find attractive in men in the first place) are not things that are readily visible (though can sometimes be deduced from visual cues). I'd agree that (at least in videogames) there isn't much sexualisation of male characters (not surprising because most of those characters are written by men who wouldn't know how to write such a character).However I do feel that sexualised male portrayals are extremely common in general, and because they aren't visually sexualised by blatant and recognisable cues (because those cues, at least taken alone, don't do it for women anyway) it goes by unnoticed. Take porn for instance, men watch it, women read it. Does that make the sexualisations of men in women's media any less sexualised simply because we can't sense that it is there or can't overtly see it? I'm not so sure.
Articuno76
If these ques go by unnoticed, wouldn't that make it useless for it doesn't serve the intended purpose. And if the intended purpose is not met it would further reduce the eligibility of men being "extremely" sexualised. I am not arguing that the sexualisation of men is NON EXISTENT but that is significantly dwarf by the sexualisation of women. I find it bewildering that this is being debated.
[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="Haziqonfire"]Female Representation In japanese Video Games - Stereotyped, Sexualized and ObjectifiedHaziqonfireFixed It's not just Japanese games. A lot of western games mold female characters into stereotypical, sexualized roles too.
But they have gotten significantly better. The eastern games are still oozing in jiggling boobs and nearly naked chicks.
[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"] If you use your reading skills on that again, I never said that he was as sexualized as Bayonetta, but that he was sexualized compared to real life. If you are going to cherry pick the outliers, okay, he's way more sexualized than Jade from Beyond Good & Evil. That line of thinking work for you?Pedro
Seems as if the core or the starting point of every argument is based on some IMAGINERY inefficiency of the person you are responding to. Well care to explain which part of the Kratos character exudes sexy? If Kratos is the best you can do out of the supposed equal distribution of sexualising as women then your argument is rather fragile.
Again, I never said he was the worst offender either. Seems like your counter arguments are all about avoiding the line of debate. Shall we agree to not respond unless we have an actual response?If you want the worst offender, maybe Voldo from Soul Caliber. Alternatively, Leisure Suit Larry. A character whose entire goal throughout the whole series is sex. I can see how some would disagree with my pick of Voldo, given his questionable sexuality, but Larry is the most obvious male stereotype. Still, I'm not at all offended by him or most any video game character because again, they are pixels not people.
Again, I never said he was the worst offender either. Seems like your counter arguments are all about avoiding the line of debate. Shall we agree to not respond unless we have an actual response? If you want the worst offender, maybe Voldo from Soul Caliber. Alternatively, Leisure Suit Larry. A character whose entire goal throughout the whole series is sex.guynamedbilly
I never implied or asked for a worst offender. The basis of my first response was the madness behind your choice as an example of men being sexualised which was a horrible example. Now Voldo holds MUCH greater value than your first selection.
I forgot to mention - I think the examples in the article are great. Faith from Mirror's Edge and Chell are pretty good female characters, although Chell doesn't really have much of a personality. With Samus, she didn't really have a character prior to Other M, but when she did get a personality it was kind of a weak, vulnerable, stereotypical female representation. HaziqonfireThe thing with the Other M Samus character is that many don't appreciate how they were trying to make the character progress through the game from a weak, whiny self-centered kid in the flashbacks to the "i'm trying to figure out what's going on, but orders are orders" restrained grunt throughout the playable game to an ultimately more enlightened, understanding victorious hero in the end. Gameplay issues aside, i think many players were hung up on "wait, I thought she was supposed to be a super powerful, emotionally void female playerskin that i get to see with less clothing if i beat the game in a shorter amount of time?" or got stuck comparing a developing character with her flaws to a flawless blank template from Metroid Prime (like comparing duke nukem to gordon freeman). In that light, I think the Other M Samus is kind of a step forward from NES/SNES Samus, for female video game characters. From Metroid Prime Samus, it is just a deeper step into the same spot.
It's not just Japanese games. A lot of western games mold female characters into stereotypical, sexualized roles too.[QUOTE="Haziqonfire"][QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] FixedPedro
But they have gotten significantly better. The eastern games are still oozing in jiggling boobs and nearly naked chicks.
Neither of them have done a good enough job to have great female characters. Just because western development teams have represented females in a slightly better light doesn't excuse them.Neither of them have done a good enough job to have great female characters. Just because western development teams have represented females in a slightly better light doesn't excuse them.Haziqonfire
What western games are you refering to? Because I can think of any that is as bad as their eastern counter parts?
Chell from Portal is pretty badass and so is GLadDOS for that matter along with Alyx Vance :P
Also male characters in games are just as stereotyped as the females. Most are really bad actually. Most characters in all videogames can be pretty bad and are just there for the sake of it
Sorry for being so dismissive. It's an inherent flaw of mine. I do get somewhat upset about women who call themselves "feminists" who really mean that they just want all other women to act like them because I feel they mostly prey on the gullible and ignorant. This story seemed to initiate on Kotuku which is part of one of the most sexist companies in our culture so I, perhaps mistakenly, automatically thought negatively of the goal of this woman. I still don't think there is any merit in trying to shame people in what pixels are doing on a video screen. If they want to show that there's interest in making a "strong" asexual female protagonist then more power to them I suppose.guynamedbilly
Don't get me wrong I can related to some femenist (I am assuming not all) fisting their idealogy of what women should be down men and women's throat. In the end some women want to flaunt it and others may want to hide it. I have no problem with either. :)
[QUOTE="Pedro"][QUOTE="Haziqonfire"] It's not just Japanese games. A lot of western games mold female characters into stereotypical, sexualized roles too.Haziqonfire
But they have gotten significantly better. The eastern games are still oozing in jiggling boobs and nearly naked chicks.
Neither of them have done a good enough job to have great female characters. Just because western development teams have represented females in a slightly better light doesn't excuse them. What? Have you seen any of the Naughty Dog games or the latest Tomb Raider? Just to name a few.
I think both sexes are sexualized / idealized in games....you can find both good male and female leads...and plenty of ****ty ones on both sides as well...self righteousness for self righteousness's sake...
It's a matter of perspective. For the audience those sexualised men are intended, the cues are apparent enough. They just aren't visual, so men (the audience they aren't intended for) don't pick up on them unless they were to invest in the media. If you were to stop and read it the chances are you would catch all the cues and see it quite clearly. The thing is most men never would (and indeed, why would they?) so they go by blissfully unaware. Whereas for women, they can pick on the cues of a sexualised woman, without having any vested interest in a product designed for men because it's right there on the front cover in a form that is meant to entice men. The level of sexualisation and the form that sexualisation takes is relative to what the sexes find attractive. What I think we can both agree on is that there isn't as much visually apparent sexualisation of men as there is with women. In fact as you said, the visually apparent sexualisations are far greater for women than men. That is to be expected given that men are aroused, primarily, visually. This IMO still doesn't excuse the lack of a wider range of female roles out there. We all suffer for that because we end up with the same few cliched characters.[
If these ques go by unnoticed, wouldn't that make it useless for it doesn't serve the intended purpose. And if the intended purpose is not met it would further reduce the eligibility of men being "extremely" sexualised. I am not arguing that the sexualisation of men is NON EXISTENT but that is significantly dwarf by the sexualisation of women. I find it bewildering that this is being debated.
Pedro
Less blah blah blah moar boobz I say.GodModeEnabledThought you didn't like boobs
What? Have you seen any of the Naughty Dog games or the latest Tomb Raider? Just to name a few.Black_Knight_00
I have - and like I mentioned about Tomb Raider, they seem bent on having the player play a protective role for Lara. I don't really see why she can't be a powerful character without the need for me to feel like I need to 'protect' her.
She's STILL a objectified woman in video games, just look at all her portrayal throughout the years and trying to make her a sexy figure.
[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]What? Have you seen any of the Naughty Dog games or the latest Tomb Raider? Just to name a few.Haziqonfire
I have - and like I mentioned about Tomb Raider, they seem bent on having the player play a protective role for Lara. I don't really see why she can't be a powerful character without the need for me to feel like I need to 'protect' her.
She's STILL a objectified woman in video games, just look at all her portrayal throughout the years and trying to make her a sexy figure.
wait what?....and Nathan Drake is a 50lb overweight socially awkward nerd in glasses and the person controlling him in game isn't protecting him?....[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]What? Have you seen any of the Naughty Dog games or the latest Tomb Raider? Just to name a few.Haziqonfire
I have - and like I mentioned about Tomb Raider, they seem bent on having the player play a protective role for Lara. I don't really see why she can't be a powerful character without the need for me to feel like I need to 'protect' her.
She's STILL a objectified woman in video games, just look at all her portrayal throughout the years and trying to make her a sexy figure.
She's a girl lost in a jungle, alone and wounded. She grows stronger and eventually overpowers wild animals and a bunch of armed men. How is that an objectified woman? That "player is her protector" is a lot of BS, since it can be said for every game, don't you think?
[QUOTE="Haziqonfire"][QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]What? Have you seen any of the Naughty Dog games or the latest Tomb Raider? Just to name a few.Omni-Slash
I have - and like I mentioned about Tomb Raider, they seem bent on having the player play a protective role for Lara. I don't really see why she can't be a powerful character without the need for me to feel like I need to 'protect' her.
She's STILL a objectified woman in video games, just look at all her portrayal throughout the years and trying to make her a sexy figure.
wait what?....and Nathan Drake is a 50lb overweight socially awkward nerd in glasses and the person controlling him in game isn't protecting him?....You carn't argue with a feminist they are the most hypocritical people you will ever meet. Your example here shows how one sided their thinking is. Oversexualistion is rampant in the video game industry and it effects both women and men that is a fact. I will never look like Nathan Drake or Marcus Fenix and do you know what? That does not bother me as I'm not so insecure about myself that i need to force my opinion down every ones throat to get my way.
i brought up the history because you did with the saying the property and object comment in history. my point still stands though that she would've of found it preferable to work at home because it was expected that the men would go out and do the manual work. and even now when women could sue anyone and everyone to do manual jobs they don't. if the job is physically strenous like construction or ice crab fishing women won't do it. but i digress and go onto my point.Pedro
you say men don't get sexualize the same as men. watch a few ads on television, or hell movies or do you not see it? and to your question the vast majority of characters in games are males, the vast majority of games are usually aimed towards men. It's also true that the vast majority of males in video games are idealized forms of men. So why is it that men generally either sit quietly at seeing the tropes again and again or don't see a problem all together? Why is it that males don't feel this perpetual low-self esteem when bombarded with images of the ideal man (watch advertising, go to the mall, look at your magazine covers). it's not that different from the women. and yet we still think first about female concern. hell.. walk into any 13 year old girl's room. the two are getting it man, you don't wanna believe it fine. but it seems to me that now the men should be ashamed but the women are comforted if they don't measure up to the images they're seeing. another example of if women are not equal or leading in a field it's a problem of the system, if it were the men then there is something wrong with the men. which makes me think, if men seemed to not be so offended by this wouldn't it mean that men identify themselves by what they do, rather then what they are. where women it's what they are first and not what they do. and actually ponder this for a moment if you will. just dare to.
think about this if you ever thought about it, when games are writing characters that are female we have to stop and address it from a female perspective. virtually for any other role we don't even think about their gender. you wanna write robot do it, you write males you don't even need to talk about their maleness about them just go talk about being a pirate/samurai/soldier etc etc. but when were dealing with female characters we have to start walking on eggshells and figuring out how to do it 'right'.
the new Lara Croft is a prime example, the new Tomb Raider is proportioned realistically, but the story takes place before she is the great adventurer. and to top it off they're going on the more gritty real go at it in that "yeah.. dropping down caves will get you hurt". and now the complaint is that she is now this suffering girl for the gamer needs to protect. really i just wanna throw my hands up and give up because there is no pleasing anyone. they've said it she comes out on top in the end, she is forged into the great adventurer, that means getting knocked around a bit and learning to be awesome. Nathan Drake can't even touch that, he has no similar story arch like it except a section in UC3. This will tell a better and more engaging story and yet people still complain.
reminds me of an article on Lightning in FF13 and how the complaint about her is that she is devoid of femininity. Again we need to address what femininity is, and yet a lot of people question what masculinity is or make fun of it all together. Or another article i read detailing about the Kara demo and then saying it was a comment on the sexualization of women because she became cognizant. Really i was rather insulted by this interpretation, it wasn't because she was a woman who started asking questions, she's a robot. standard western sci-fi protocol is basically "be very afraid of robots and AI". which goes back to my point about writing female characters. if this were i-robot we don't even think about killing the robot, and the robot is male. when the robot is female holy $hit.... it's a female first, robot second.
unless it's made abundantly clear prior that the robot is good, that's usually where Western audiences expect robots to be handled.
whenever i hear "prove to me sexualizing of men" i'm typically expected to provide examples that are usually designed to attract gay men. which if you look for what attracts gay men. not all the different from men oggling women. it's visual based. hunky guys in tight underwear, making a pose you'd see in clothing magazine or sexual poses for that matter. women don't require that, and it's pretty evident they don't if you look up what 13 year old girls are falling infatuated with all the time. every male-lead in games is an alpha male, every male has it all together in the games (except in JRPG's the lead-male don't know what the hell they're doing but virtually all the woman can kick all their @sses left and right). the men in games are either incredibly intelligent, charming, or witty. if they're not that then they don't have much of a personality aside from having some super power or a very healthy body and they persevere through adversity. you cannot pretend that these are qualities that women do not find attractive in men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JURBO6CE51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=953l26VK0Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3paQ-VRE7qM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNqfELoyRjk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PUH-4SRIVs&feature=related
are all examples of what women think are hot characters. ask, do a poll (i did for a master's course), if women prefer alpha or beta males?....
but lets ignore that. and that's all that i'm pointing out, and it's pretty clear we are not going to agree on this point.
I do agree on better portrayals of women in video games, but i expect someone somewhere will find fault in all of them. "she's not wearing pants (wears a skirt or something else)" "she's a weak character" "she's a psychologically troubled woman" "she is devoid of femininity and we can't relate" "her breasts are too large" whatever. and then try to project it as though were are too dumb to realize that isn't that case for every single person of the female gender.
Ooo... all 16 of those flesh-colored pixels... not to mention the 10 green pixels that make up her underwear*nosebleed*El_Zo1212o
You did ask...
Honestly, I feel like this thread has only proven the message of image I posted to be true. We all go on and on about how games need to be respected and taken seriously, defending the medium every time it comes under attack for being childish or dangerous or not worthy of respect. And yet when some big social issue like this pops up, whether in-game or not, every time we suddenly revert to ol' "it's only a game, guys, geez" argument because nobody wants to admit that maybe there is a problem. Everyone just wants to turn they're heads and act like nothing is wrong, that it's all sugar and rainbows, that it's just people stirring controversy because they can and because games are everyone's favorite punching bag. All because somebody asks for a bit of introspection, which is too much to ask, apparently. It's no wonder no one takes us seriously: we deserve to be ridiculed.
wait what?....and Nathan Drake is a 50lb overweight socially awkward nerd in glasses and the person controlling him in game isn't protecting him?....Omni-Slash
I think the problem is that the developer implied there was a difference when it's a female character who's involved. One of his statements was something along the lines of "you root for her in a way that you wouldn't a male character," which, taken out of context (like the Kotaku article specifically did), can be easily interpreted as something along the lines of sexism.
I feel like we need the full context of those staments before we can really start lambasting the guy for them. It could be a case where he was trying convey that they're trying to prey on our nurturing nature; after all, you put anyone -- man or woman, adult or child -- into a situation like the one Lara's in, you would feel compelled to help (or "protect," if you will) them. But again -- we don't have the full context. I wouldn't be surprised if the writer specifically cherry-picked those quotes just so they could create a sensationalist story. Kotaku -- Gawker as a whole -- thrives on that kind of schlock. Honest reporting and them don't go hand-in-hand.
This seems relevant:
It's funny (and sad) because it's true.
c_rake
Reposting this because its so great.
I take it this would be a bad time to state how much I am enjoying Lollipop Chainsaw.
My take on representation of (or lack thereof) for specific genders, orientations and mentalities in games is simple. If it's not there then make one that is representative of that which you conceive accurately reflects what is missing. That make sense?
You could point out what is missing, not representative or just falls short of being accurately portrayed in pretty much anything. Making a high production "documentary" is not going to fix anything. Maybe she is not looking to fix anything. I suppose it makes nice watercooler talk but I have little respect for a "cause" if one is not going to contribute to it by delivering a solution and implementing it instead of merely just point out what they feel is wrong.
I always laugh at these stupid articles. Do you ever see men complaining about characters like the roid raging freaks from games like Gears and GOW? They're videogames. Some women need to get over their insecurities.istuffedsunny
I have to agree, I admit there are guys out there that look leagues better than me and it doesn't bother me at all cause that's life. So what guys drool over women like Tifa,Zoey,Sheva or Scarlett Johansson,Ellen Page and so on. Women drool over Robert Downey JR,Chris Hemsworth,Chris Evans,Johnny Depp and so on.
We are MAMMALS!!! we are attracted to what is good looking/beautiful to us.
It's still just a game, though, and honestly the art of a game for me comes from it's gameplay rather than the narrative, characters, or the art design.Goyoshi12
Way to miss the point.
I take it this would be a bad time to state how much I am enjoying Lollipop Chainsaw.
My take on representation of (or lack thereof) for specific genders, orientations and mentalities in games is simple. If it's not there then make one that is representative of that which you conceive accurately reflects what is missing. That make sense?
You could point out what is missing, not representative or just falls short of being accurately portrayed in pretty much anything. Making a high production "documentary" is not going to fix anything. Maybe she is not looking to fix anything. I suppose it makes nice watercooler talk but I have little respect for a "cause" if one is not going to contribute to it by delivering a solution and implementing it instead of merely just point out what they feel is wrong.
juradai
Yeah, a documentary doesn't seem like the best course of action. It's just going to be yet another venue for which points that have already been made will likely be reiterated. There's something to be said for raising awareness, of course, and videos would do a better job at that than a series of articles, but I can't imagine the them having much more of an impact.
Still, better for her to try than to just sit back and do nothing, I suppose.
[QUOTE="Goyoshi12"]It's still just a game, though, and honestly the art of a game for me comes from it's gameplay rather than the narrative, characters, or the art design.c_rake
Way to miss the point.
I take it this would be a bad time to state how much I am enjoying Lollipop Chainsaw.
My take on representation of (or lack thereof) for specific genders, orientations and mentalities in games is simple. If it's not there then make one that is representative of that which you conceive accurately reflects what is missing. That make sense?
You could point out what is missing, not representative or just falls short of being accurately portrayed in pretty much anything. Making a high production "documentary" is not going to fix anything. Maybe she is not looking to fix anything. I suppose it makes nice watercooler talk but I have little respect for a "cause" if one is not going to contribute to it by delivering a solution and implementing it instead of merely just point out what they feel is wrong.
juradai
Yeah, a documentary doesn't seem like the best course of action. It's just going to be yet another venue for which points that have already been made will likely be reiterated. There's something to be said for raising awareness, of course, and videos would do a better job at that than a series of articles, but I can't imagine the them having much more of an impact.
Still, better for her to try than to just sit back and do nothing, I suppose.
What did I miss? I get the point but it has no effect on me as I have a different view of what definition of art defines a game; a game can have an overly sexualized female protaginst or have one as one of the characters but I wouldn't really care as it has no impact on my view of art for the game. I still feel like people (men included) should get over the whole over sexualization BS in games and other medias. Sure there are times when it is indeed a little over the top but then there are tons of other female characters that have justice done to them. It's a double edge sword really.
What did I miss? I get the point but it has no effect on me as I have a different view of what definition of art defines a game; a game can have an overly sexualized female protaginst or have one as one of the characters but I wouldn't really care as it has no impact on my view of art for the game. I still feel like people (men included) should get over the whole over sexualization BS in games and other medias. Sure there are times when it is indeed a little over the top but then there are tons of other female characters that have justice done to them. It's a double edge sword really.Goyoshi12
It was a stab at the irony of demanding the medium be taken seriously and be respected, yet turns around and says they're just mindless entertainment the second they come under heavy criticism, completely undermining the progress the industry has made in pushing the medium forward as an art form. Whether it affects you or not, surely you'd agree that it's problematic. As the medium develops, the ol' "it's only a game" excuse won't hold much weight (well, except in those "games cause violence" debates, anyway), so it's best to discard it now.
[QUOTE="Goyoshi12"]What did I miss? I get the point but it has no effect on me as I have a different view of what definition of art defines a game; a game can have an overly sexualized female protaginst or have one as one of the characters but I wouldn't really care as it has no impact on my view of art for the game. I still feel like people (men included) should get over the whole over sexualization BS in games and other medias. Sure there are times when it is indeed a little over the top but then there are tons of other female characters that have justice done to them. It's a double edge sword really.c_rake
It was a stab at the irony of demanding the medium be taken seriously and be respected, yet turns around and says they're just mindless entertainment the second they come under heavy criticism, completely undermining the progress the industry has made in pushing the medium forward as an art form. Whether it affects you or not, surely you'd agree that it's problematic. As the medium develops, the ol' "it's only a game" excuse won't hold much weight (well, except in those "games cause violence" debates, anyway), so it's best to discard it now.
Oh...sorry, the post came exactly right after I said my little portion on what I thought of the whole situation so I thought it was a slight jab at me and perhaps anybody else with the same argument.
Sorry rake. :(
Oh...sorry, the post came exactly right after I said my little portion on what I thought of the whole situation so I thought it was a slight jab at me and perhaps anybody else with the same argument.
Sorry rake. :(
Goyoshi12
Ah, don't worry about it. Misunderstandings happen.
Yeah, a documentary doesn't seem like the best course of action. It's just going to be yet another venue for which points that have already been made will likely be reiterated. There's something to be said for raising awareness, of course, and videos would do a better job at that than a series of articles, but I can't imagine the them having much more of an impact.
Still, better for her to try than to just sit back and do nothing, I suppose.
c_rake
Perhaps if I had a better understanding of what she is looking to solve out of this series or maybe just ultimately get out of pointing out tropes.
*notices over 100K was raised in Kickstarter*
Hmmm... well, hell... I need to jump on creating a video series that stirs up this much ridiculousness.
SaudiFury
Unfortunately your post was not easy to read but I think I get the overl jist of it. With that said I have not heard of any writer taking pause specifically because they are creating a female character. When writing or creating a character, their gender always plays a role. You don't devoid yourself of thought when creating a male character. Whatever gave you this notion? Any character that is worth its salt is cleverly concieve wether its male or female.
Also the notion that females are not attracted to physical is not correct. They are attracted to physical. Soon we would argue that they have no sexual urges and they can't get pleasure from sex etc. Women are attracted to men physcially however the person behind/in the body is what keeps the attraction but that is specifically applicable for long term relationship and has very little relation to the superficial nature sexualisation.
Also you argue that men don't complain about the overly manly image of guys portrayed in games? Well I beg to differ. I also guess it depends on who you surround yourself with and what gamers share similar views to you. But myself and gamers that I hang with are equally tired of the MACHO, I am badass, mr generic male protagonist that is continously plaguing videogames. It has reach the point where it just comes across as overly corny and unimaginative.
Couple o' things: 1. Articuno76 and Saudi whats-his-face are the heroes of this thread. 2. "Pixels not people" is the most valid argument presented in this thread. 3. I stopped giving a $#!+ about anything any feminist ever had to say when I heard one opine that women who were content to stay at home and care PERSONALLY for their children were having a negative effect on the entire gender. Frankly, I'm sorry, but caring for your offspring is more important than your career plans. Male or female.El_Zo1212o
I hope you would have the same attitude if a guy's slong was dangling on your screen or a naked dude prancing around in a game, after all its just pixels.
last I knew people didn't have to buy them..if my wife or any ladies in attendance want to play a game like that...by all means..have at it....free choice for the win....there are many different styles of games...not every game has to be a work of realistic art or make some political statement....let people decide with their money what they want to play...I hope you would have the same attitude if a guy's slong was dangling on your screen or a naked dude prancing around in a game, after all its just pixels.
Pedro
[QUOTE="Goyoshi12"]What did I miss? I get the point but it has no effect on me as I have a different view of what definition of art defines a game; a game can have an overly sexualized female protaginst or have one as one of the characters but I wouldn't really care as it has no impact on my view of art for the game. I still feel like people (men included) should get over the whole over sexualization BS in games and other medias. Sure there are times when it is indeed a little over the top but then there are tons of other female characters that have justice done to them. It's a double edge sword really.c_rake
It was a stab at the irony of demanding the medium be taken seriously and be respected, yet turns around and says they're just mindless entertainment the second they come under heavy criticism, completely undermining the progress the industry has made in pushing the medium forward as an art form. Whether it affects you or not, surely you'd agree that it's problematic. As the medium develops, the ol' "it's only a game" excuse won't hold much weight (well, except in those "games cause violence" debates, anyway), so it's best to discard it now.
If you are certain those are the same people or groups of people, that'd be one thing. I pretty consistently say that they are just games and that the art comes from them being a creative venue. Uh, I didn't say that as clearly as I'd hoped so to put it another way, those are two different groups of people. Just because they both happen to be humans doesn't mean they reflect the collective beliefs of humans.Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment