Did MGS lose a lot of it's magic for you after the first? This may be why.

For a lot of people (me included), the MGS series just never managed to capture the magic of MGS1 going into it's sequels.

For awhile I theorized that this might have quite a bit to do with quality of the English translation, or lack thereof, in the games post-MGS1. The characters, the dialogue ....... something just seemed off in MGS2, and to some extent, in MGS3 as well. I just could not find myself getting into the characters or being terribly interested in what any of them had to say. They just did'nt sound very natural I suppose. At least not on the same level as they did in the first MGS.

Here is an interview I think every MGS fan needs to hear. It's slightly depressing to think that the MGS sequels could've been so much more enjoyable than they were if not for clashing egos and opportunistic writers. I've always felt that Kojima was not quite the "genius" that so many make him out to be, and despite how many artistic pictures he takes with glasses on, finger on chin, staring into the camera like he's in deep thought, It's always been quite apparent to me that the true stars of the show were those writing the script for the English translation. Making the characters seem more real than just sticking to a direct translation of what is ultimately a ridiculous script when left untouched.

It pretty much confirmed my beliefs when Jeremy Blaustein (the subject of this particular podcast) said "I tried to write that script as best I could, but they still snuck some things past me. Do you think love can bloom on the battlefield? Do you really believe I wanted that in the game?"

Given that the line "Do you think love can bloom on the battlefield?" is the most out of place line in all of MGS1, and to this day elicits snickers from me and my friends when we reminisce about it, I tend to believe the original would've been that much better if Blaustein had been given more creative freedom. Obviously, he lost all control after MGS1, and the disappointing sequels are the by product of this.

I'm sure there will be tons of MGS fans in here calling this guy a whiner, proclaiming Kojima a genius, and saying things like " the MGS sequels were every bit as good as the first ........ if not better!", but please try and be open-minded when you listen to this interview.

To think that if this guy could've kept editing the script, we very likely would've beenspared such trash as "Liquid is an arm now!", and the crotch-grabbing President.

http://www.metalgearsolid.org/show_news.php?id=1218

Meh, I think the quirky nature of the story line is what makes MGS....MGS.DarKre

Personally, I disliked MGS1

It had... how should I say? Too many corny moments (like Otacon asking about love in battlefield to Snake), and it wasn't really the evolution I expected from Metal Gear series (I played it liked it, but didn't love it back then) in terms of story. I thought it will take more realistic presentation, but instead MGS went way far into abstract story telling.

My love for MGS series started with MGS2 and that's when I started to appreciate it. When I played MGS3 I was beyond hooked.

Not at all! I always thought Kojima's stories were always the same. The only thing that people criticized was Raiden, but Metal Gear Solid 3 got the game back on track. It was one of my favorite last-gen games, maybe even one of my favorite games of all time. And MGS 3: Subsistence only took it to another level, a very high level.

Even though MGS 2 was criticized, the gameplay was still Metal Gear-"Solid," if you know what I mean.So no, MGS was always about the gameplay for me, and every version delivered, especially the third one.

You bring up a pretty interesting point, and a good read, but I can't frankly say that this is the main culprit in my descending interest in the franchise. The first MGS grabbed me by the balls because it was an old franchise reborn in a way we had never seen prior, and offered gameplay that seemed completely new and refreshing. By the time the second one came out, its own popularity had diluted the pool and the game just didn't grab my attention as much, despite still being of high production values. Storyline and scripting played a part of it, but for me, it probably wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back.

I could never get into the MGS games, mainly because the characters were a bit too cheesy for me, not to mention I didn't think the gameplay was very entertaining. I don't know if that adds anything to this thread tho...E3BigC

You have a lot of corny moments such as Snake being emotional and quotes like the love blooming. You have all this references to historic events, then you have Psycho Mantis and his leather stripper costume, floating in the air, or the big guy with his voodoo and birds. The gameplay eh, I'm not a fan of crawling in vents. The story, clashes with fantasy and realism.

I haven't tried 2 or 3 though.

Not at all! I always thought Kojima's stories were always the same. The only thing that people criticized was Raiden, but Metal Gear Solid 3 got the game back on track. It was one of my favorite last-gen games, maybe even one of my favorite games of all time. And MGS 3: Subsistence only took it to another level, a very high level.

Even though MGS 2 was criticized, the gameplay was still Metal Gear-"Solid," if you know what I mean.So no, MGS was always about the gameplay for me, and every version delivered, especially the third one.

ASK_Story

Yes I absolutely agree that the gameplay has been solid throughout the entire series and has never skipped a beat as far as I'm concerned, but don't sell MGS short. There is far more to the allure of MGS than just how fun it is to play (in the times you actually get a chance to control it of course). There is a lot of emotion in it's cinematics, deep connection the player feels for it's characters, and an atmosphere that sucks you in and makes you believe that these characters and the crisis at hand are real and important to you as well as the game world's inhabitants.

MGS without dialogue, cinematics, and script......... well it's certainly not MGS.

(EDIT) Did my spaces disappear due to some technical issue, or is it just me?

Personally, I love the Metal Gear games. Cornyness and all, it just wouldn't be Metal Gear without corny moments. Like I love the whole roll in the barrel idea for MGS4. I do find it interesting that not one person has mentioned the themes that lied prevailent throughout each game. Gene, Meme, and.... Hmm, I can't remember what the third one was about. swordofzaren

I agree and I agree with Johnathan guy who said anyone who doesn't like the cornyness in metal gear games should leave it and play splinter cell.

Mgs1 enemies were fox hound and they had longer history than dead cell and the boring bunch in mgs3 so it's nartural that you feel related or like the baddies in mgs1 more than mgs2 or 3. Besides the history, the gameplay was so little in mgs2 and the story was too long while the story was little*the dialougs were the worst in mgs3 especially the ones that took place between snake and the boss* and the cut-scenes weren't as climatic as in mgs1 or 2. As for the parts that were lost with translation, it's 100% natural when you try to translate any piece of story from a language to another that it loses it's magic, try watching bleach for instance in both english and japanese and tell me what ichigo you liked more. In the dubbed version he sounded slow and boring while in japanese he goes screaming and calls everybody son of a *****!

[QUOTE="swordofzaren"]Personally, I love the Metal Gear games. Cornyness and all, it just wouldn't be Metal Gear without corny moments. Like I love the whole roll in the barrel idea for MGS4. I do find it interesting that not one person has mentioned the themes that lied prevailent throughout each game. Gene, Meme, and.... Hmm, I can't remember what the third one was about. gamingqueen

I agree and I agree with Johnathan guy who said anyone who doesn't like the cornyness in metal gear games should leave it and play splinter cell.

Mgs1 enemies were fox hound and they had longer history than dead cell and the boring bunch in mgs3 so it's nartural that you feel related or like the baddies in mgs1 more than mgs2 or 3. Besides the history, the gameplay was so little in mgs2 and the story was too long while the story was little*the dialougs were the worst in mgs3 especially the ones that took place between snake and the boss* and the cut-scenes weren't as climatic as in mgs1 or 2. As for the parts that were lost with translation, it's 100% natural when you try to translate any piece of story from a language to another that it loses it's magic, try watching bleach for instance in both english and japanese and tell me what ichigo you liked more. In the dubbed version he sounded slow and boring while in japanese he goes screaming and calls everybody son of a *****!

In the interview you will find they talk a bit about this. Basically, a lot of Japanese writers are influenced by American cinema (like Kojima), and are basically bouncing that right back at us. To a Japanese audience, a lot of this regurgitation is fine as it is new to them, however, to an American audience, the same line would seem absolutely ridiculous and cause nothing more than a chuckle (ie Do you think love can bloom on the battlefield?).

It is the duty of the American script writer/translator, to make sure the dialogue comes out naturally and entertaining to a Western audience.

Any fan of Japanese Anime can tell you just how painful a lot of direct translations can be to read or listen to. These are the results of an English script writer/ translator that just does'nt give a damn, and would rather leave the original dialogue unedited and directly translated. More often than not, as in the case of that one Disney translated anime who's name escapes me at the moment, the dialogue needs to be rewritten, humor needs to be added, and many changes have to be made. Japanese writing just would'nt appeal to most Western audiences in an untouched form.

I believe the person theyappointed to replace Blaustein called MGS2's script the worst script she had ever read. Obviously she didn't take the liberty of changing some things the way Blaustein did. A move that ultimately got him fired.

Ya mgs2 only cause of raiden...He was corny and if anything he was the girl not rose marry.

Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake > Metal Gear Solid

There I said it.

Actually, Metal Gear Solid mostly copies everything from MG2 and made it 3D, the only thing it added were the dragging of bodies and lazer pointer from what I can remember.

The first MGS grabbed me by the balls because it was an old franchise reborn in a way we had never seen prior, and offered gameplay that seemed completely new and refreshing.

Garudoh

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

[QUOTE="swordofzaren"]Personally, I love the Metal Gear games. Cornyness and all, it just wouldn't be Metal Gear without corny moments. Like I love the whole roll in the barrel idea for MGS4. I do find it interesting that not one person has mentioned the themes that lied prevailent throughout each game. Gene, Meme, and.... Hmm, I can't remember what the third one was about. AlwaysSoft

I agree and I agree with Johnathan guy who said anyone who doesn't like the cornyness in metal gear games should leave it and play splinter cell.

Mgs1 enemies were fox hound and they had longer history than dead cell and the boring bunch in mgs3 so it's nartural that you feel related or like the baddies in mgs1 more than mgs2 or 3. Besides the history, the gameplay was so little in mgs2 and the story was too long while the story was little*the dialougs were the worst in mgs3 especially the ones that took place between snake and the boss* and the cut-scenes weren't as climatic as in mgs1 or 2. As for the parts that were lost with translation, it's 100% natural when you try to translate any piece of story from a language to another that it loses it's magic, try watching bleach for instance in both english and japanese and tell me what ichigo you liked more. In the dubbed version he sounded slow and boring while in japanese he goes screaming and calls everybody son of a *****!

In the interview you will find they talk a bit about this. Basically, a lot of Japanese writers are influenced by American cinema (like Kojima), and are basically bouncing that right back at us. To a Japanese audience, a lot of this regurgitation is fine as it is new to them, however, to an American audience, the same line would seem absolutely ridiculous and cause nothing more than a chuckle (ie Do you think love can bloom on the battlefield?).

It is the duty of the American script writer/translator, to make sure the dialogue comes out naturally and entertaining to a Western audience.

Any fan of Japanese Anime can tell you just how painful a lot of direct translations can be to read or listen to. These are the results of an English script writer/ translator that just does'nt give a damn, and would rather leave the original dialogue unedited and directly translated. More often than not, as in the case of that one Disney translated anime who's name escapes me at the moment, the dialogue needs to be rewritten, humor needs to be added, and many changes have to be made. Japanese writing just would'nt appeal to most Western audiences in an untouched form.

I believe the person theyappointed to replace Blaustein called MGS2's script the worst script she had ever read. Obviously she didn't take the liberty of changing some things the way Blaustein did. A move that ultimately got him fired.

I didn't listen to the interview I've tried to listen to it ten times and it didn't work :( Why? was she the one who wrote mgs3 script? If so she's the one who should be fired. At least people do talk about their personal affairs and tiny bits about their lives no matter how silly they sounded but not talk about movies! Or CQC ! mgs3 dialougs and script were terrible compared to previous mgs games.

Minor details could have made mgs2 a better game like perhaps streching the gameplay, it had the best engine I don't know why the gameplay was so little, it made the gamer not anticipating cutscenes or surprises in the games. Also the soundtrack, imo Harry only did great with the main theme because I hated the jazz I know it's NY bla balbbal but it didn't fit. Anyone who says Raiden what ruined mgs2 is wrong and didn't get the point of mgs2. Raiden what saved mgs series.

Hmm... maybe that's part of the reason I didn't like MGS2 as much. The other problem was the whole 'feel' of the game; it seemed like it was trying to be both more and less over-the-top than MGS1 (or rather the Twin Snakes; that's the version I played, and I loved the slight helpings of cheese the game had). MGS2 brought it totally ridiculous (and not-very-believeable) bosses, but also tried to make the story a complex parable about modern life.Funkyhamster

Heh infact mgs2 also had awesome bosses, one where you have to avoid being hit or seen, one where you defuse time bombs and hit the guy, one with tons of mgs rays and that was a blast and the awesomeness of kojima where you usethe katana on solidus I mean who thought of using a sword with all those weapons around? MGs2 was perfect alone but when you compared it to the first there are minor things that made it second.

MGS is excellent cause the gameplay first and foremost the story just compliments it. Kojima is a genius, he is one of the best videogame designers in gaming history, who cares what he does with the story, thats just a side skill, he is a GAME designer.

dvader654

Indeed the gameplay has been solid (if somewhat short) in all of the MGS games, but the true magic of the series and what has set it apart are it's cinematic cutscenes and engaging characters/story. The likes of which is beyond anything that has been seen in a game before and allows theviewer to become enthralled in the game and emotionally attached in a way that pure gameplay scenarios do not allow.

Yes sneaking in the bushes is fun, and so is cracking necks and dragging bodies. However, a memorable, blockbuster franchise with iconic main characters and a passionate following whom discusses anything and everything Metal Gear is something you do not have without the cinematics and dialogue. Both of which have pretty much become synonymous with MGS games. MGS is not MGS without it's most defining characteristic of course.

Although slightly stretching the truth and exaggerating some things, this game has a lot of real world science and history behind it. I love the crazy metaphysical technobabble. It makes you think. Metal Gear has done nothing for me but get better with time.

True but all that story means nothing if the game is not good

dvader654

[QUOTE="dvader654"]

True but all that story means nothing if the game is not good

AlwaysSoft

That's not always the case...

I've played some horrific games because the story was good. Don't dare presume for everyone.

[QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"][QUOTE="dvader654"]

True but all that story means nothing if the game is not good

SemiMaster

That's not always the case...

I've played some horrific games because the story was good. Don't dare presume for everyone.

I enjoy the gameplay mechanics in MGS games. I do not think they are the best, but they are solid enough so that I don't consider them to be absolute torture when waiting for the next cutscene or codec call to appear.

So I guess in that case, you could say I liked a game with so-so gameplay more than another with good gameplay, based solely on it's qualities that are completely seperate from gameplay.

However, if KOTOR had taken the combat to an overboard area that is a level I would personally deem unacceptable (FF, Blue Dragon, JRPG level), then all of the great qualities in that game would not have mattered, because the gameplay would just be too farin the realm of boringfor me to enjoy even the best aspects that game has to offer.

But thats the point, it was still a horrific game, the story isn't going to magically make the game great.

dvader65

Hmm...but that's kind of beside the point. We're really not even talking about the gameplay here. It's the story we're discussing.

And, you're right, a good story won't make the game great if you simply look at it as a game. But that's the point of a good story, that's why games like that resonate with so many people, because it makes the expierience more than just a game. Shenmue I and II had questionable gameplay...at best. However, they were gorgeous, with excellent soundtracks, and people grew so attached to the storyline that, to this day, they still pound on their desks screaming "SHENMUE III"...and you can never quite get them to shut up about it.

And then there's also the idea of fusing story with gameplay to the point where neither feels separate. For example, in PoP: Sands of Time, you hear the prince narrating and having conversations with Farah while you're playing. In fact, the prince is never quiet for longer than thirty minutes. The game does everything it can to keep reminding you that it isn't just you playing the game, it's you playing as The Prince. And there are also games like Shadow of The Collosus. I swear that there are only 3 cutscenes in that game, but a lot is explained by the look on your characters face, how he moves, etc. You can see his desperation, inexpierience, and weakness.

And there are some games that would be nothing without a good story. Games like Hotel Dusk, Killer7, and pretty much every adventure game every made.

In reality, whether or not a good story can make a bad game great really depends on how heavy the gameplay is. If the gameplay is thin, and the plot is thick, then yes, a good story really can make a bad game worthwhile.

But mgs gameplay is too short to be remembered. I now know why you liked mgs3 so much...

[QUOTE="Archangel3371"]Well for me the storyline is indeed the main reason I play and enjoy the Metal Gear Solid games. All the backstory on Ocelot and Big Boss was probably my favourite aspects of MGS3. Sure the gameplay is good in the games but given the huge amount of story and dialog in the games I can see how someone wouldn't want to play the games if they don't like the story.dvader654

But you can skip the story and just play the game, I still cant see that as a main reason to not like a game. What happens with a game like Mario that is all gameplay and simple story, people still play it. I'm not saying you are wrong to feel the way you feel, I am just saying that I dont understand it, I don't think I ever will.

Well games that have a simple story like Mario are pretty straight forward anyway that's why they have a simple story. I couldn't imagine skipping through all the cut-scenes and dialog in an MGS game on the first playthrough as you would miss alot of objectives and reasons as to why you're doing this and that in the game. It canconfusing enough sometimes when you follow the story let alone skip it all together.