If you have seen in many threads I am a lemming, I am just telling you what I see.

Camer999

Well what you "see" is false.

No developer has made a DX10 native game. Unless a game engine is built from the ground up for DX10, it doesn't really see any performance benefits. This isn't DX10's fault, just the result of the way it was made, and the refusal of developers to invest in something that would essentially split their market...

You want to see DX10 in its full glory, look no further than Futuremark's 3DMark Vantage. It uses DX10 native engine to render its scenes. Does it in real-time and is stunning to look at.

http://www.futuremark.com/images/products/3dmarkvantage/calico_hr2650.jpg

i'm really waiting on amd's 5800 series in october. those would be twice as powerful as the 4800 series. yay!!! too bad the hardware still isn't powerful enough for real-time ray-tracing. but those GPGPU functions that are supposed to be making an appearance in d3d 11 will be welcomed. hopefully if AMD can finally deliver of fire stream processing and may be pimp out cinema 2.0 to devs. hell i can;t wait to upgrade to 7 ultimate 64 bit. less resources needed for better operations and hopefully a better gaming experience.

cowgriller

I am looking forward to that as well.

And yeah, Compute Shaders should be great. What makes it such a great feature is that it opens up the Shader pipeline to the developers, allowing them to use the shader cores to do physics calculation, AI, post-processing, etc...

With the Unified Shader pipelines in DX10 cards, this should have some great results.

with windows 7 and d3d 11 around the corner, devs can fully take advantage of d3d 10 without having to cater to dx9/windows xp. hopefully, if windows 7 becomes wildly popular from day one. devs will move onto d3d 11 altogether.

cowgriller

Hopefully... I can't wait to see developers making good use of Geometry Shaders, Shader Model 5.0, Compute Shaders, Hardware Tessellation, and Instancing 2.0. Crytek already did a tiny bit of messing around with Geometry Shaders, but I want to see what they can really do. And Compute Shaders should be absolutely insane. Tessellation has taken way too long to be actually implemented and used, so that should be good. And Instancing 2.0 is an often underappreciated DX10 feature that could have a huge impact on graphics.

Hopefully developers end up surprising us with some stunning tech.

d3d 10 wasn't the greatest improvement to the directx architecture, it was merely the biggest. d3d 10 was pretty much out performed by dx 9 in gaming. sure improvements have been made, but it was not the huge improvement that ms claimed it to be. furthermore, the reason most pc games aren't designed for d3d 10 exclusively, or from the ground up, is because it would divide their userbase and those without vista/d3d 10 would be unable to play the game. yes, d3d 10 was a selling point of vista, which is why MS themselves marketed d3d 10 to the gaming market to get them upgrade to vista for it's "improved performance".

d3d 11 is not a subset of d3d 10, it's a superset of d3d 10.1. it contains all of the improvements and features of d3d 10.1 and adds tessellation, shader model 5, compute shaders, and mutlithreaded rendering. the later two can be used fully by even dx 9 hardware but tessellation and sm5 require d3d 11 hardware.

cowgriller

D3D 10 WAS the greatest improvement.

And you are right, developers aren't willing to divide their userbase.

But, the "improved performance with D3D 10 wouldn't have been a myth if developers had actually developed games to support DX10 natively, instead of halfway supporting it. MS marketed DX10 as one advantage of Vista, but it wasn't entirely marketing(like you were making it out to be). DX10 got a bad rep because developers didn't support it for financial reasons. But, as an API, it is a huge improvement over DX9 in every way.

Also, you are right. I made a slight mistake. DX10.1 is a subset of DX10. And then DX11 is a superset of DX10.1. And I said that Tessellation and other features would require DX11 hardware, but that the rest was compatible with older cards. ATi also has an advantage in that they have included Tessellators in their cards for years.

Hmm, wait, what? 360 doesn't have better framerates than a gaming PC, that doesn't make sense.mitu123

Exactly... There was a 10 page discussion about it(trying to convince the fanboy that he was wrong)... Which is the worst part.

almost entirely wrong on everything. nvidia did not have a direct 3d 10 card until the launch of the 8800 series one year after the launch of the 360 (8800 in nov. 2006.) ati launched the 2900 with d3d 10 in march 2007 and was the first to launch d3d 10.1 and will be the first to launch d3d 11 later this year with the release of windows 7 around oct/nov. the gpu in the ps3, the RSX, is based on the 7800 gt, a dx 9 card, but with a smaller ring bus and lower bandwidth. further more, the rsx uses opengl, it doesn't use directx.

d3d 10 added some new features but was pretty much a more efficient version of dx 9 that was to be a selling point for vista. d3d 11 will be huge in regards to d3d 10 but unlike d3d 10 and just like d3d 10, will require new hardware to take full advantage of. unlike d3d 10, d3d 11 will be able to run on an older version of windows (vista, it's not 7 proprietary).

cowgriller

D3D 10 was not a more efficient version of D3D 9... D3D 10 was an entirely rewritten API with a ton of architectural differences from D3D 9. That is why attempts to take D3D 9 code and then sprinkle D3D 10 effects on top didn't prove to be successful or efficient. DX 10 was much more than a selling point for Vista, it was designed as a sort of refresh of DX. It completely renewed the API and streamlined everything about it. It added new features like the Geometry Shader and demanded Unified Shaders in the hardware. D3D 10 was in every single way, the single greatest improvement that DX had seen over the previous version. People like to claim that it was a waste given that we haven't seen massive performance improvements, but in order to really use DX10, you have to write and engine from the ground up for DX10. There are no half-way measures with it. You can't just add DX10 features on top of a DX9 engine without giving up all the performance improvements... No game released thus far is a true DX10 game. Not even Crysis. DX10 has simply not been used properly yet.

Also, D3D 11 is a subset of D3D10. Most of its features can be accessed by DX10 cards. However, a couple features require specific hardware.

Ok look my intention was to not turn this into a major tech showcase. Or a Nerd VS a Troll

Listen the point is. The ATI GPU in the 360 is custom built and in development for many years not like the RSX which was an off the shelf GPU that Sony ran 2 after then dumped the Cell as the GPU at the last min, Not only that the RSX sat on the shelf finished for about 10 months just waiting to be put into the PS3 because of the delayed launch.

Anyway The ATI GPU in the 360 Is basically a DX9.5 But it has some ideas of DX 10 built in. And being ATI GPU's can mimic some effects it's not a far stretch that a talented developer could make some similer effects seen in a DX11 game not fully but could try and be close and mimic it. But lets throw DX11 out the window lets stick to basically DX9.5 with some DX10 ideas that can be achieved on some levels even if small. Either way still far better then what the RSX can do.

Lets also rember that the 360 GPU has built in physics tech that I do not think has even been tapped at all by any developer of yet?

Anyway what this boils down to is $$$ Developers stick to what they know and do it for as cheap as possible. So is it any suprize that it is Bungie and Halo that will start to open Pandora's box on the 360 GPU. Really if anyone we should expect it to be Bungie really when we think about it. Halo HUGE selling game far less risk on development cost so it's a NO BRAINIER.

And in the future we should see other developers take notes and learn techneichs from Bungie on how they tapped the 360 GPU for the extra goodies.

So yes the 360 will start to flex it's GPU even if it is towards the tail end of the gen. Either way the 360 should have itself a few games that truly TRULY SHINE and this is why MS said hey trust us we have some sick stuff on the way.

Pimp_Dog09

The Xenos CANNOT mimic DX10 effects. IT SIMPLY CANNOT.

Yes, it has optimizations that were designed for DX10, but those were both primarily to increase the programmability of the hardware, not the actual capability.... Unified Shaders and MEMEXPORT are great features that make the entire card much easier to program for. But they in no way expand the hardware into the realms of DX10 level graphical effects.

Tessellation IS possible on the Xenos however. Just as Tessellation is possible on the Radeon 8500, you can do Tessellation on the Xenos. All ATi cards have that ability. And Tessellation is a great feature. But it isn't really all that much to do with DX10 or even really DX11 features. DX11 makes Hardware Tessellators mandatory on all future GPU's. ATi has been doing that for a long time. nVidia, not so much.

[QUOTE="horrowhip"]

[QUOTE="navyguy21"]oh ok, its cool, i see what you mean, But dont you think your posts came of a bit............fanboyish? im not saying you are, im just saying that if you read my post, and thought it was necessary that you post something to clear things up, cant we also assume that those same lemmings would read my post as well?? Maybe?? :) To be honest, ive never seen ANYONE, fanboy or not, say that 360 could run directx 10.mitu123

I've seen more than a few.... Between this forum and Gametrailers, yeah... probably around 50 different people have made a claim that The Xbox 360 do DX10 effects...

don't worry, I know. Read my sig.

oh ok, its cool, i see what you mean, But dont you think your posts came of a bit............fanboyish? im not saying you are, im just saying that if you read my post, and thought it was necessary that you post something to clear things up, cant we also assume that those same lemmings would read my post as well?? Maybe?? :) To be honest, ive never seen ANYONE, fanboy or not, say that 360 could run directx 10.navyguy21

I've seen more than a few.... Between this forum and Gametrailers, yeah... probably around 50 different people have made a claim that The Xbox 360 do DX10 effects...

[QUOTE="horrowhip"]

[QUOTE="navyguy21"]So bungie is wrong?? Also, in my original post, i never stated that 360 supports DirectX 10 or 11, i said it has a modified version of DirectX 9, with some DirectX 10 functions, and thats why it was dubbed "DirectX 9.5"

navyguy21

The 360 support a modified version of DX9, but only very limited DX10 features(Unified Shaders, stream out). The API and architecture are what makes DX10 what it is....The 360's version of DX isn't the same, thus it isn't DX10.... The 360 can't do Geometry Shaders. Nor can the 360 do SM4.0... Can't run DX10 code... It isn't DX10. DX10 is all or nothing. that is how different it is from DX9. All or nothing. You can take a couple features and plop them onto DX9, but that doesn't make it DX10.... Nor does it make it capable of similar things as DX10.... Understand?

Also, Bungie never stated anything about DX11 or DX10... No, this random website made that statement....

I am not claiming that you did say that....

All I was saying was to clear up some things before lemmings got out of control. Which they would.... There are a LOT of them that believe that the 360 can do DX10.

My statement was to try to stop some of them from making ignorant claims...