Rhazakna's forum posts
[QUOTE="Rhazakna"]
[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]
You might say that, but how do I know that to be true? You say any "honest" person would concede that your observations are true, but how do I know you're honest?
My point is that without some statistical evidence that Obama supporters are more prone to support him for bad reasons or are more hyprocritical or ignorant, I have no reason to believe that that is the case. Especially considering that no one person's personal experience can reveal any significant truth about the nature of a politician's supporters.
Not to mention that saying that some people like him because he's black doesn't hold any more weight than me saying that some people don't like him because he's black and as a result vote for Romney.
Again, statistical evidence or bust.
GreySeal9
According to every poll I've seen, Obama's lowest approval rating among blacks has been around 85%, and that's just recently. For the majority of his presidency, black support was in the 90s, while support among every other ethnic group fluctuated greatly. There was also a large increase in the number of black voters in 2008, which held on in 2012 (we'll see if that continues if it's two white guys again, but I think the answer is pretty clear).
Polling data shows that Democratic support of the spying programs has vastly increased since Bush, the left wing anti-war movement is practically non-existent and the concern over Bush's wanton spending seems to have evaporated among since his election. If Obama supporters were really knowledgeable, and aware of his policies, at least some of the millions who hated Bush would've stopped supporting him, but his support in 2012 didn't drop much if at all.
They don't do studies as to whether or not supporters of politicians are knowledgeable about their candidates. What you have to do is look at polling data, look at the actions of the electorate and look at what they come out and say, then make inferences. I understand you don't want this to be true, as an Obama supporter. I just don't see how anyone with fresh eyes can think otherwise, when it's so screamingly obvious. What exactly would convince you? A study they're never going to fund? In that case, you can never glean any insight into trends regarding constituents, because it takes deduction.
You could start by actually bringing other politicans/support bases into your analysis and comparing and contrasting. If you're going to say that Obama supporters and more hypocritical or more ignorant or vote for him for worse reasons, your analysis cannot be persuasive unless you're willing to base your argument on objective comparisons.
As for the bolded, it doesn't matter what you think is obvious. What matters is objective data, not "inferences" because people will choose what data sets they want to focus on, as you have so clearly shown.
Are you really saying that no insight can be gleaned by the fact that black support of Obama has been absolutely unilateral, and resulted in an explosion of black voters? If you want to bring in other candidates, fine; it's unprecedented. the closest would be Clinton, who had approval ratings in the low 90s among blacks his last three years, but even then he started in the mid 70s. This is particularly interesting when you take into account that approval ratings among other ethnic groups have fluctuated, usually by at leastr a dozen points. No President or Presidential candidate in recent history has had this kind of complete support among an ethnic group. If Romney had even a 70% approval rating among whites, there would be all sorts of analysis, and criticism about what that means. Unless you have some other series of facts to contradict, or put all the numbers in a different context, I think the implications are clear.Â
You also think no insight can be gleaned by the fact that Obama has million of supporters who hated Bush, and still love him despite the fact that he has maintained or increased pretty everything they hated W. That means nothing whatsoever. Say what you want about Bush, but if he moved in a more socially moderate direction, the religious right would've dropped him in a second. If you recall, during the 2004 election season the Evangelical movement was talking about staying home, because they viewed him as too socially liberal. He was able to change that with being against gay marriage.
Â
It's quite simple; in 2008 Obama became cultural phenomenon. He transcended politics and became a brand. He became cool, celebrities loved, he was young, he was friends with Jay-Z. He was the biggest political rock star since JFK. Because of this, tens millions of people (many of them younger) latched on to him. For many, being an Obama supporter was like wearing the hottest clothing of the season, it was what the cool kids were doing. So many became Obama supporters for reasons that had nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with the Obama brand. These people are more ignorant, all you have to do to figure that out is talk to them. I implore any impartial observer of this exchange to chime in- do you really believe that no insight can be gained by the analysis and comparison of Obama supporters? I want people to tell me that none of this means anything, and no sound narrative can be created through this information.
[QUOTE="Rhazakna"]Bucked isn't a troll, not sure why people think he is. He's just a stupid guy who has no identity beyond his race, and loves the idea of being part of a victimized group. there are millions of people like him.The_LipscombAre you positive? No, but I don't think he is.
I have no more bias regarding Obama than any other politician, and the same goes for his supporters. The fact that millions and millions of Obama voters despised Bush proves quite conclusively that huge swaths of his constituency is either ignorant of or simply doesn't care about the similarities between the two. Hell, there are plenty of people who will come out and tell you that they like him because he's black. The people who argue that these things aren't a factor are the ones blinded by bias. They could've gotten a free pass early in his first term, but it's practically a joke now.[QUOTE="Rhazakna"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]
Not at all. Just because you believe that to be true doesn't mean anybody has to concede anything, especially considering that you might very well be seeing things through the filter of your own biases.Â
GreySeal9
You might say that, but how do I know that to be true? You say any "honest" person would concede that your observations are true, but how do I know you're honest?
My point is that without some statistical evidence that Obama supporters are more prone to support him for bad reasons or are more hyprocritical or ignorant, I have no reason to believe that that is the case. Especially considering that no one person's personal experience can reveal any significant truth about the nature of a politician's supporters.
Not to mention that saying that some people like him because he's black doesn't hold any more weight than me saying that some people don't like him because he's black and as a result vote for Romney.
Again, statistical evidence or bust.
According to every poll I've seen, Obama's lowest approval rating among blacks has been around 85%, and that's just recently. For the majority of his presidency, black support was in the 90s, while support among every other ethnic group fluctuated greatly. There was also a large increase in the number of black voters in 2008, which held on in 2012 (we'll see if that continues if it's two white guys again, but I think the answer is pretty clear).
Polling data shows that Democratic support of the spying programs has vastly increased since Bush, the left wing anti-war movement is practically non-existent and the concern over Bush's wanton spending seems to have evaporated among since his election. If Obama supporters were really knowledgeable, and aware of his policies, at least some of the millions who hated Bush would've stopped supporting him, but his support in 2012 didn't drop much if at all.
They don't do studies as to whether or not supporters of politicians are knowledgeable about their candidates. What you have to do is look at polling data, look at the actions of the electorate and look at what they come out and say, then make inferences. I understand you don't want this to be true, as an Obama supporter. I just don't see how anyone with fresh eyes can think otherwise, when it's so screamingly obvious. What exactly would convince you? A study they're never going to fund? In that case, you can never glean any insight into trends regarding constituents, because it takes deduction.
Every politician has supporters that support them for bad reasons, but the issue is greatly compounded with Obama. I think any honest person who has had extensive interactions with pro-Obama voters would have to concede this. I disagree, it's never a bad thing to point out how ignorant supporters of a politician are. It's an inherent flaw in the system, and one that doesn't get anywhere near the attention it deserves. This is especially true, considering how ignorant and downright hypocritical Obama supporters often are.[QUOTE="Rhazakna"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]
And there were plenty of Romney supporters who supported him for bad reasons. I don't see any insightful point in memes that point out the most ingorant among supporter bases.
GreySeal9
Not at all. Just because you believe that to be true doesn't mean anybody has to concede anything, especially considering that you might very well be seeing things through the filter of your own biases.Â
I have no more bias regarding Obama than any other politician, and the same goes for his supporters. The fact that millions and millions of Obama voters despised Bush proves quite conclusively that huge swaths of his constituency is either ignorant of or simply doesn't care about the similarities between the two. Hell, there are plenty of people who will come out and tell you that they like him because he's black. The people who argue that these things aren't a factor are the ones blinded by bias. They could've gotten a free pass early in his first term, but it's practically a joke now.Yes. Also, it has nothing to do with Obama thinking they deserve support and everything to do with wrestling control of Syria's oil pipelines out of Assad's hands. I don't think so. We get enough oil from the Saudis we don't need Syrian oil. The Saudis are a core part of it. Assad doesn't play ball with them, and that's a real thorn in the side of both the Saudis and the US. The oil-rich countries that try to buck the petrodollar and weaken US influence in the ragion always seem to get invaded, struck or interfered with. What a coincidence. An invasion of Syria has been on the table for ages, I was hearing about the brewing plans to invade Syria years before the rebellion started.[QUOTE="Rhazakna"][QUOTE="whipassmt"] by these guys do you mean the "rebs".
whipassmt
I'm not asking you to put any stock into it, but if you're asking me whether or not the perception among some recipients was that Obama was giving them phones, I can tell you with certainty that it was. Obviously that doesn't mean anything to you, but I can't just ignore what I know to be true because I can't prove it to a third party over the internet. The video is a microcosm of a real aspect among certain Obama supporters, like the woman who said she wouldn't have to pay her mortgage if he got elected. The right might have overblown it somewhat, but their point was that it's indicative of a trend among some Obama supporters who like him for bad reasons-like the phone or the fact that he's black. This is true, and anyone who denies it either isn't paying attention or is in active denial.[QUOTE="Rhazakna"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]
I don't put much stock in anecdotal evidence.
Rightwingers might have not "created" the meme from stratch, but they absolutely did take that specific video and tried to give it more significance than it deserved.
GreySeal9
And there were plenty of Romney supporters who supported him for bad reasons. I don't see any insightful point in memes that point out the most ingorant among supporter bases.
Every politician has supporters that support them for bad reasons, but the issue is greatly compounded with Obama. I think any honest person who has had extensive interactions with pro-Obama voters would have to concede this. I disagree, it's never a bad thing to point out how ignorant supporters of a politician are. It's an inherent flaw in the system, and one that doesn't get anywhere near the attention it deserves. This is especially true, considering how ignorant and downright hypocritical Obama supporters often are.
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