[QUOTE="55PP"]

[QUOTE="Ninja-Bear"] A man called Stephan Beckman recreated the shroud using a camera obscura; an invention used during the renaissance by Da Vinci, and more or less the world's first camera. That is why the shroud has no ink or paint.MrGeezer

Yet this, in no way, proves that the original was made by this method. Just the way this duplicate was made present, does not determine whatever happened in the past. It is a possible explaination yes, but still. This again brings up the word; Theory

Of course we don't know, if it hasn't been tested for that. The point is, this is a theory which is scientifically sound given the technology and science and the time, and it has been demonstrated to work. Then, on the other hand, we have the "theory" that Jesus' divinity is the only thing which could account for the shroud, even though there's no proposed process by which a Divine Jesus even COULD leave such an image behind.

I tend to favor the theory with the fewest "holes". Any holes in the "camera obscura" theory pale in comparison to the holes in the idea that it had to have been a Divine Jesus in that shroud.

It's sort of like when you get arrested for murder and blame it on your evil twin who was trying to frame you. Sure, it's possible. But you wouldn't accept the "evil twin" defense on the grounds that there are a few small holes in the prosecution's argument. If the holes in the prosecutions argument can be patched up more easily than by bringing the idea of a worldwide corporation who is manufacturing clones who are engineered specifically to be evil, then you need direct evidence FOR that. Even if you deem it impossible for me to have committed the murders, that doesn't mean that you automatically have to believe in the "I was framed by my evil clone" theory.

And that's what irks me anytime religion vs science gets argued. People just believe that if one is wrong, that the other has to be right. That if the Shroud of Turin hasn't been definitively proven to be done by camera obscura, that it MUST have been made by the divine Holy Powers of the Jesus. That if a religious person can't PROVE that the universe was created and/or governed by a higher sentient power, that God CAN'T exist.

Was the Shroud of Turin created in some kind of divine process? Maybe. Though it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY, given that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, and that the simple explanation (science) seems pretty sound.

I will continue to believe the "highly unlikely" theory. One person's view of something cannot change another's view. Religion is a personal matter. You cannot be defeated, by simply listening to another person's objections against you. I will respect anyone's beliefs or disbeliefs, but they also cannot affect mine; My beliefs will certainly not affect yours either.Just because something is more likely to have happened, does not change much. There will always be the possibility. Only when someone degrades a belief, then it becomes a problem; nothing referring to your post. However, I will ADMIT there is much evidence opposing me, and almost no evidence for me. But this, is where faith comes in.

Since I am drifting off from topic, I will say this; In my beliefs, the Bible says that the simple, easyway will lead you to fire, while taking the road of hardship, will lead you to eternal life.

Domatron, do you have anything to contribute to this discussion?

Although, we will never know unless the church reveals it. The discussion is rather short-lived surrounding the shroud.

This is somewhat irrelevant, but what do you believe, Ninja? Surely you cannot deny the existence of Jesus, regardless of whether or not He is the Son of God.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Nobody has recreated the shroud. Whoever said that is tripping.

Ninja-Bear

Yet this, in no way, proves that the original was made by this method. Just the way this duplicate was made present, does not determine whatever happened in the past. It is a possible explaination yes, but still. This again brings up the word; Theory

Ninja, you keep assuming that the church is afraid of letting scientists examine the cloth. So, let's assume for a minute that the alleged duplicate was simply made to attack the original piece. The scientist who supposedly duplicated this shroud, was financed by agnostic and atheist groups. The 'duplicate' is inaccurate because it did not have 3D properties that were in correspondence with the original. Furthermore, the reproducer could not explain this. The duplicate is not symmetrical with the original, therefore, the original, was created by some other means. The blood on the shroud was there prior to the actual image.

Three years in the making. I won't let this thing die.

THIS THREAD HAS MADE IT TO PAGE 9521 AND BACK. Impressive indeed.

Hire someone more trustworthy such as your neighbour!

I'm sorry, but all of you are incorrect. I believe the Russians did this to us.

Chess. It was invented around 200 AD.

Video game wise, I had a few games for the NES, including Super Mario Bros.