Next GoW Entry - Suggestions Thread

Discussion for combat and other gameplay mechanics are strongly preferred to story, but that too is welcome here. Feel free to evaluate previous entries as well. Maybe go over things you would take away, add, change, etc. even with them, but mostly focusing on how to improve upon whatever next title may or may not come to be.

Ascension needs be ignored and multiplayer scrapped. Restore the old collision, rage (not Rage of Sparta though) and MP systems. Remove the nerfs to grabs, the Blades' moveset, petrification, evades, and parries, while boosting magic back to GoWII level (every entry since making it an oh shit button instead of allowing you to clear fights with smart application). It would be nice to have the GoWIII item system for utility, but with good magic might not be needed. Either way, the air dash should return, it really improved Kratos's mobility. Fix the targetting and make enemies less susceptible to taunt abuse when pressing against area boundaries. More fast movements for navigation bits are welcome, though non-combat sections should be kept to a minimal. Attacks shouldn't cause a pseudo guard break on Kratos nor push him ten miles when they hit, stick to unblockables and distribute them intelligently. Keep the camera close to Kratos, zooming out looks cinematic but makes it very hard to fight. If something in the environment looks hazardous, it should be. If a wall isn’t visible, there probably shouldn’t be one present (and none of this special knockback shit like in ToA).

Enemies who are only vulnerable to a single type of attack (like Skorp) shouldn't exist. It defeats the purpose of having a large moveset if only a small portion works. Satyrs have been considerably weakened as the series went on (eventually becoming minor grunts), and should punish button mashing as they were originally designed to. The GoWII Juggernauts/GoWIII Talos are nice punching bags with two varieties, wouldn't mind seeing them return (minus the time wasting, glitchy auras). Having a universal stun system on top of regular hitstun and inescapable grabs is a bit much, and wasn't done well in Ascension (though few things were), but an attack or weapon with a special stun state (freezing, shocking, etc) would be fine. IIRC there was a monster covered in eyes, could fire the at Kratos while his grabs rip them off. More enemies focused on supporting their friends than attacking (Priests, Cerberus Breeders). Protection fights are a bitch and can go south very, very quickly, best to steer clear.

For bosses, Stheno comes first and foremost. She can give the last and best Gorgon Head (take Euryale’s, make Stare as efficient as it was in GoW1, replace/buff Blast, done), and claws. The real Cerberus and Achilles are next. Fighting his namesake (the embodiment of strength) would be amusing. Boss levels like Chronos are shallow, if it's going to be big give it decent attacks like Poseidon or Pandora's Guardian. Don't take away weapons for boss fights, it just limits options. Trash talking is encouraged.

GoWIII had excellent Blades. They weren’t as powerful as GoW1’s and had less inputs, but much better than GoWII’s (which were mostly for OH, Zeus and AoE bounce every once in a while). The specials were solid with decent upgrades for leveling up (TR and CoC), double hits were easy to score, CG gave them a much needed knockback attack. Let the tether animation be a passive upgrade for the Blades (giving more reach on grabs) and bring back Achilles Heel Flip. Like RotG and RotT, there should be a special Rage ability for maxing the Blades. Having the old Valor and Plume counters along with Argo’s Revenge would be swell, and can be accomplished by mapping the latter to O after a parry. Being able to go aerial after a whiffed Ascension should return. Make the S as potent as Might of Hercules (or just bring it back. With the post GoW1 nerfs it would fit into the moveset well without being over- or underpowered). Bring back the old GoWII t1 with all of GoW1’s quick variants.

Stheno’s Claws should be fast with mid-high damage per strike, being a very mobile weapon with an aerial moveset to match the Nemesis Whips’. Make Cupid/Eros’s Bow a full blown melee weapon, with projectile attacks and striking with the bow. Have a strong direct damage knockback shot, poison (catching immediately and dealing a high amount of Power % ignoring damage, renewing with each shot without missing a tiq), one that makes enemies fight each other (doing nothing if no one’s around), single target petrification, sneak in an auto shatter somewhere, freezing (breaks immediately when struck but magnifies damage of the hit), an arrow that marks the enemy to be nuked by something else (Zeus’s lightning, turret arrows *like BIA’s release*, volcanic eruption, Orkos clone/soul, whatever).

The Armor of Achilles could serve as a gauntlet and greaves weapon (if it has a cape, all the merrier). Power on the normals should be similar to the Cestus and AoS, with very strong stuns a la GoZ. Give it a variety of ranged tools that focus on utility/harassing (like PS and DR) over direct damage. A Soul of Ares/Rodin type morphing weapon would make a great, unconventional heavy hitter. A magic staff that casts ‘spells’ (no MP cost) that lack I frames, poor properties on individual hits, and lack normal strings (like Nevan), made up for with many hits, AoE, high damage, and allowing Kratos to move after the initial cast but before the attack dissipates. Give it tools like Summoned Swords, Wicked Weaves, and a HP% based attack like Demi.

For story, Kratos should not be humanized. He is a savage brute who only respects his immediate benefactor, some of his kin, and to a lesser extent Sparta, killing anyone else for the slightest of reasons. Making him more reserved or in denial is fine, anything more undermines his character and Greek myth (where might makes right). Keep Kratos’s ability in mind; he shouldn’t kill gods before GoW1 and no one as powerful as Zeus before achieving godhood.

Is there something wrong with the gow3forums, or is it only me?

As a starting point:

http://www.gow3forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=6543&start=30

For lack of the gow3forums topic (where info is most easily readable in format):

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/the-ultimate-god-of-war-union-board-909179035/gowa-sp-ideas-10044972/#11

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/the-ultimate-god-of-war-union-board-909179035/gow-evaluations-10044949/#25

http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/God-of-War-Ascension-General/GoW-A-SP-ideas/td-p/37336768 *should mostly be repeat info*

NOTE: All of these alternative links suffer from sites that have changed their format, so the presentation has become significantly harder to read.

---

I'll edit with a proper response later. For now:

Deeb: I imagine 'kratos' didn't pay the bill as the most likely reason we're down like this (again).

SBK: >GoW:A ignored

It needs to be learned from, but can they do that even with guidance? I still have to make a GoW:A Evaluation (after all my other tasks with it) and send that off to Papy as promised.

>MP scrapped

They should quickly get on with making it "Champions of the Gods" as a standalone IP, download only, etc. and see it fail horribly (then truly be quit of this filth). Hopefully that makes it clear to executives that this isn't profitable. It's just shit that doesn't jive with the genre (bringing down another one of their flagship IPs needlessly).

>restore old collision, rage and MP system

What's your ideal for each? Could we have a mix of RotT and RotG's best qualities? Could we have both as different rage states to work from? RoS had some appeal if only for cancels, but too much was wrong with the system. GoW:A rage isn't even a rage and locking what we normally have behind that system pisses me off. I wouldn't mind a 'third' rage option we can activate for 'dumps' and augmenting the likes of heavy enders, but the temptation exists for them to make t0/t3 shit until you do land the bonus damage ('balancing' is a big problem for them). Thera's Bane isn't a rage, but it has more potential than this system, I feel (just don't do something stupid like require it to break armor...having the option is fine, but not forcing it as with Cestus on Onyx). Seems more like 'item' territory from GoWIII (using up item meter that regenerates). Same for GoWII's relic (AotF).

With MP, I imagine you wish to avoid having them tied to spells, but if we don't, would we lose other options (limited buttons)? Relics and items have become other important considerations here. A return to MP units is preferred. I don't like piqs (nor did I much fancy cooldown in the form used). Spells tied to Power % should NOT be the norm. One case like a vanilla AoE is fine by me (added some depth to AQ), so long as it doesn't become total filth on vanilla VH. We should have interesting variations aside from those though. Projectiles (multiple cast types), Petrification/Freezing (multiple cast types), Cast-and-Forget and maybe even Summon (SS with CoH had potential, but was horribly realized) or other neat effects (like dominating enemy AI *friendly fire and in-fighting getting more love in the future would be appreciated beyond a spell helping with this*).

Then there are collisions. GoW1/GoWII have the system with full/half cases and scaling with Enemy Power % (inverse of Armor %). GoWIII had wall and object collisions aside from allowing three different variations on half collisions (agent only, target only and agent/target). Because of BR, they took 'balance' too far and nerfed the whole system.

>remove nerfs to 'various'

A lot of ground to cover (lightly). *hard to motivate oneself to REALLY go into detail when no new entry is on the horizon* Petrification balancing is something I've gone into some detail about in the past. Deeb had a chance to read a bit on that recently. GoWII's balancing suits me best. With that, we don't really need the partial petrification glitch (though not unwelcome if only to help with air shatters) nor gaze damage to statues (if nerfed to be much less, that's fine as it is a bit silly for stare to deal 40 damage in a second *few if any statues should have that much HP as it is*).

There is also room in my heart for an alternative system like 'freezing' where the foe is slowed (easier to deal with *taking longer to shake-off and maybe even decreasing the hit properties of enemy attacks due to velocity change, so an unblockable can drop to guard break and even blockable while guard break could decrease to the point of a weak hit without hit stun and maybe the most pathetic hits just become totally impotent*). The main distinction, however, would come from holding the enemy still for free hits on their actual HP total (maybe light direct damage with activation and even lighter for build-up) versus being a quick kill means. Maybe allow for pushing them around as a block of ice (rapid push to ram people with a Cyclops, full speed push it into a wall for a shatter dealing large damage or send it careening off a cliff), platforming off them (some Metroid shit *I don't know why Bayonetta doesn't do more with using this system for getting around at least to optional areas being that we can enemy step, Umbran Spear, Crow Within, etc.*) and even a special grab (Bayonetta could toss the frozen enemy blocks).

NOTE: I've gone over how hard it would be to balance a weapon that passively builds up petrification in the past (the links might cover that). Freezing would be less problematic (Odette managed it fine). Worse comes to worse, they can make an unlockable for it without bothering much with balance (GoWII did this and the others have no good excuse for failing to do so too). Same for freezing, I'd say. They have such a hard-on for Boreas, I'm sure such a suggestion would sorely tempt them (just so long as it isn't a disaster like HoB or GoW:A's ice *which I hope my actual WIP coverage *can be linked as needed* shits on enough to suffice for lack of SP evaluation on it thus far*).

With the parry, I would like the GoW1 system (no i-frames, quick access to string enders), GoWII system (i-frame AoE) and even the GoW:A variant if they could make the 'stun' system less shit (which would take a lot of work), but as a special input. As it was, it was total garbage. With the normal (old) parry, having it able to return projectiles in their orignal state could be nice as an alternative to transforming them into a uniform damage projectile.

Evades in GoWIII had some neat variation (air evades were lovely). The specials weren't entirely terrible (some where still very bad). Still, I don't like them taking up the (R),t and (R),T spot. GoW1 had it right and the best evade move to boot. Pursue i-frames should return along with slow-mo and activation regardless of hitting something (keeping the jump cancel for small window of the animation would be pretty nice too).

GoW1 had the best normals for the Blades. GoWIII's BoE for specials (though LotF is desired along with AF and Might). The air s3 of GoW1 is one exception (I'd rather have the version from GoWII and beyond). Weapon Switch specials were shit and have no place.

Grab damage needs to return to its roots more. GoW1 was a tiny bit overboard with the ease and power of some cases. GoWIII making Satyr grab damage appreciable was fine by me (especially since we lose the forced OH lock). Having two different Satyrs would allow for one to take inferior OH damage while being redirected and forced into a lock while the other has a safer, stronger OH type (with forced OH against walls). That would suit me fine, but now we're getting more into enemy specifics. I liked GoWIII's CG as a special option. I'd also fancy not losing the Tether system, but it ought to be a special input (feels like a lvl4 upgrade). Same for HC from GoS (feels like a lvl3 upgrade to me). If we have Sprint, it should chain into Rush at lvl2 (that chains nicely into other attacks like in GoW1), but a grab input out of it would go into HC. Without that, Rush could end up being the held input (not desired) leading into a sprint that a grab input would take into HC (but the air version would need to be Stomp with a grab input canceling it into HC). I suppose GoW1 rush with a grab input leading into HC could work too. I'd prefer not to have loads of grab options lost to NUR, but that's probably how it would have to go. Enemy grabs should not scale with Enemy Power % (nor should ours scale with Power % *though a 'cheat' to allow or either is fine by me).

>Item system for utility

It exists for 'spells' they suck at making appealing to casuals while using non-replenishing units. It was tailor made for utility types. Range spells tend to get used very ineffectively even with a well done case like TB. Single target types in general aren't well received, I'd say.

Petrification would seem like a good fit until you consider the regenerating system and how to balance for it. Same problem for making it tied to weapon hit based build-ups. I've discussed both at length. Casuals just do a terrible job finding openings to apply build-up enough to petrify (when cost efficient enough to justify) and land the hits needed to make it count. They don't really catch groups and too often things break out of the statue (tossing MP to the wind). It gives petrification a bad wrap even when it is VERY effective (for the foes it does work on) without being overpowered. GoW1 and GoWII are where it shines.

The bow of GoWIII was quite effective. I'd prefer items be Power % immune as an extension of the magic system (helping them even more for NUR/NUR+). I can see an argument for them working with Power % though (if only for their heavy attacks like Inferno or Flare). Then you have a very good reason to pick one over the other. The 'burning' aspect of the bow was poorly realized outside Minor Grunts, I feel. It didn't last long enough for good DoT for many large foes (nonsense) as was quite poor at propogation (where Charon's Wrath was very good and busted armor instantly as an extra perk *but it was a spell so...*).

If they felt lvl2 didn't justify such power, why not allow for a lvl3 EXP investment to make burning far more effective (longer lasting and greater damage per tic)? Maybe even decrease unit cost per shot (instead of increasing shot rate *I'd prefer that for TB in GoWII as rapid fire caused shots that missed or didn't count when landing*).

The Head's stun was a bit weak. Perhaps that aspect could be improved to the level it needed to be at a lvl3 (that it lacked). Maybe make it such that the 2x (rapid) Flash property of knockback took in just one use. That would make lvl3 HoH/HH an on-demand knockback (even with weak damage, it would have great utility for this reason alone *aside from the Flare having long stuns with huge range now*). Having passive DoT (light) just for keeping things in the 'stare' of the item would be neat too (0.2 damage per tic, 6 tics per second *one every 5 frames of 30* with a possible 1 damage every second for free *while recharging*, but no hit stun build-up *maybe enough for a weak hit stagger after 6 tics in rapid succession*; each tic counts as a "hit" for hit count). Another MAX perk.

As is, GoWIII does a shit job promoting upgrades outside the BoE. NW mostly depends on Tirades for an excuse to invest (specials gained are good though). They were stupid stingy with giving out big modifiers (the standard being 1.0 to 3.0 for MAX and they jipped the **** out of sub-weapons).

The boots (HB/BoH) were great for the air evade alone. A MAX perk to somehow improve this would likely take the form of being more like Dante's Trickster (finally having wall runs *horizontal and vertical* passively and making it a weak attack if something is in our path *stronger if we charge it for a Jest version*; maybe allowing up to three rapid air evades even without cancels, etc.). Maybe another MAX perk could be having the boots out, holding the input (L2, I believe it was) and then using (R) for a Hermes (ground) Evade behaving like trickster (rapid, good distance coverage and pure i-frames). As far as attacking is concerned, Rush being able to launch was already great utility. Canceling the rush with a light input for a 'Ram' (knockback) would be something, I suppose (this could easily lead into talk of HC with grab inputs). Jest was cute, but the explosions were a bit weak (MAX should improve their power).

AotF would use this same system. LC (AoU) was something of a dud. Localized time slow (sometimes with launch set-up) didn't exactly pan out (partly owed to base having very large cooldown). Mixing the two into one (different cast types) would suit me. I'm sure I've talked in more detail about this in the past (likely while referring QS as Dante used it *and how Geryon used it*).

OSoO is a bit dull when exclusively full auto-dopple at complete random while being OP from the start with huge cooldown (the game being 'balanced' to it made things worse). It failing against bosses made no sense (where it is fine for petrification). Alternative casts would be good as with how Bayonetta did it (clones mimicking her attacks *like classic NG shadow clones*) or Dante's DG style (again, doing as we do, but with room for advanced play with switching tools *and it cannot* or having a second player take control of it locally*).

NOTE: Relics are worth recalling. They've done well so far with Icarus Wings (neat specials and gliding), Golden Fleece and Trident (swimming getting questionable use in recent times). However, again, I'd like to point out GoW:A having a stance for lock-on (Z-lock of OoT apparently inspiring DMC1's lock-on while Onimusha's air combo glitch inspired stylish play) that could easily be used to give Kratos some directional input moves/specials. Different weapons (other than blades) could stand-out by having less commonly used inputs like 'crazy' (mashing), charged (just releases), dodge offset, varying held inputs other than launchers (tirades or heavy htis), etc. Look to Action contemporaries for inspiration. Consider past weapons too. They don't all have to use the same scheme. Artemis returning would almost demand the loss of some options in exchange for it as it was (alternatively, dropping some garbage *one of the specials* for the good stuff *R1 thrusts*). AoS needed two shoulders buttons to pick from for its specials. It should be noted that they'll probably avoid set-up weaons in the future as SoD and NW don't take with casuals (just like petrification with regards to spells). Now this WW business...

>fix targetings

At least have the hidden GoW:A means to wrestle control back.

>less boundary abuse for forcing taunts

GoWII didn't need this. We could just create enough distance (for long enough) to make them taunt back then. Also, we had more proper sweet spots.

NOTE: Special mention of the "taunt" for Siren Sibyl. I'm sure you know the one. While we're at it, the curious weightclass buff for the clearly smaller variant on the Gorgon Serpent (Hooded Gorgon) that even gained damage just for landing its grabs (while reversing got weaker). Nevermind the tracking added to its grab.

>fast movement

GoWIII had a fair bit of this (appreciated).

>block stun, guard break and block push

All very annoying facets of GoW:A. Guard break existed in GoW before that entry, but it barely came up. Some hits were slightly beyond normal blocking and needed a parry or air block to handle them. These were not common and tended to make sense. Block push was infamous in CotG10, but GoW:A made that the general rule (now we slide around like we're on ice). The block stun is annoying shit too (giving enemy attacks the ability to lock us down in block stance for a longer recovery period making it more trying to punish them after defending). Feels like sloppy addition of fighting game properties (again, likely caused by the creation of the MP).

>Camera

Yes, exercise sense. Speaking of which, be mindful of when things are on or off-screen. Have them respect that we don't control the camera. GoW1 enemies minded this well (even canceling attacks *very exploitable*). Intelligent audio cues tend to be the best way to go along with limiting off-screen enemies with what attacks in their arsenal while not on-screen (often making them walk *or run in some cases* to put themselves back in the action).

>envirohazards should work

Agreed. Traps should be a two-way street. Be it fire jets, gorgon heads, spikes, pits or whatever.

>invisible walls

If they don't want us (or foes) being rung-out, put a fucking wall up. Does it ruin the look? Make walls of varying sizes. Small lips to block one from merely running off the side. Larger ones to prevent a grounded knockback from going over them (needs to be airborne). Higher ones to deny basic launch means to ring-out. Higher still for requiring serious exploiting (multi-launcher into aerial knockback and the like). Beyond that, fully denying them with an enclosed area. This aside from breakable barriers like in the Rooftops of Athens. They don't all have to be open to our attacks degrading them. Some can require the unblockable blows of a large foe like a Cyclops or something (having them open up a wall for use as a ring-out point even on them).

NOTE: The varying (invisible) wall definitions especially pissed me off. In the same fight, the north wall could allow tosses to pass through while the south could see foes bounce off the invisible wall. The South might not allow the BR to wall collision into instant kill *just keep running at it* while the North would have it function normally against thin air. It's all very silly and made ToA a huge ****-up. It's traps (spikes and fire mostly) not working for shit on foes was one thing, but the ring-out issues were gross. The invisible walls around the arena was large and excluded means to bypass it other than knockbacks, so you could not float an enemy over the low invisible barrier. There was an opening at floor level in the center and it didn't work any differently (couldn't trick larger foes into going over the side or otherwise push them off the ledge). Allowing such tactics makes a fight significantly more interesting. Again, make it a two-way street where just as easily as they can be harmed by them, we can be. It just makes things more interesting. We've had chats before about how ToA would be different merely by changing the envirohazards such that they worked as they should (aside from further discussion on altering enemies so they aren't so shit).

>special knockback

When I hear this, I immediately think of what GoS pulled with foes you could not launch, bounce or knockback, but instead got an alternate 'blast' (without half collision or an opening for OH and air OS or juggles really). GoW:A's Parasites had this. I forget what other foes might have used it.

NOTE: No foe used the 'commander' ability. Not even the returning 'Generals'. Amazon 'mounting' was lazy. Wraith 'summoning' of Phantoms was pretty lazy too (wish GoWIII had managed to get the 'Shade' Wraith variant into the game along with Argus so HH would have served a bigger role in the game *though I'd still prefer if the environment allowed means to abuse light without forcing the head all the time*).

>foe requiring specific attack

Automaton in GoS comes to mind as well. I understand incentivizing TB (or Cestus or whatever) by making them especially effective (usually with armor breaking) to the extent of being brainless about the task, but let others have means to do the same (even if that means they need to land specific hits that may take slightly more instances to enjoy the same effect). GoZ broke armor like nobodies business, but it had to be charged attacks while the BoC had to land heavy attacks like t0/t3. GoW1's BoC needed to land such moves, but Artemis had no means to destroy shields (not even with its heaviest blows). Not good. Cestus casually chipped shields, but no heavy moves from other sources could so much as scratch them. GoS forced TB for chipping shields (direct damage or bombs for bursting off portions of armor), but left the AoS with no means to damage at all (couldn't augment with TB nor could its heaviest specials even dent armor). I don't agree with design that totally forces one solution. Not in Action. Puzzle shit is troubling ground even with bosses when it comes to our combat options (it is more palatable when it is an environmental thing we need to do for the fight to progress/end after the proper combat chipping takes HP low enough).

NOTE: Casuals carelessly cite RPG antics with elemental resistances, immunities *terrible*, affinities *how horrifying to have some options heal enemies* and weaknesses. I could put up with small resistances (fire on fire, for instance), but immunity? Not good. Affinity? I'll cut you. Damage perks, hit stun bonuses, guard break, etc. are reason enough to favor one option over another, but I'd rather not have too much focus on such things. Staying away from elements is preferred as a general rule lest it invite such talks (and it isn't really what Greek Myth was about *too much excuse for generic shit*).

>defeats purpose of reportoire

Even my neutral ground stance violates this concern, but to a more tolerable degree. In GoW1, if any attack could break shields, but some were just far better/worse about it, I suppose that would work fine too. Imagine some guy needing at least the full string of 's,s,s,s,s' to land to break a shield versus the one landing of t0 to do the trick.

Explosive attacks would have a shortcut around the shields while non-explosive moves would probably have to deal some total of damage to it. I believe, by GoW1 measure (1.0 with 100% Power), 17 would match the noted full light string. Perhaps it could be 15 (and the Valor at the end is overkill). Though, with MAX upgrades (4.0 modifier), 's,s' would do the trick. In a more reasonable entry where 3.0 is the MAX, 's,s,s' would cut it. On VH of GoW1, it would take two such strings for base blades (MAX would take 's,s,s,s'). GoWII and beyond only take us to 75%.

I suppose there could be two classes of Magic Legionnaire (one with the 15HP shield and another with something like 25 or even 30HP shields). Another alternative would be basing the shields not on damage, but on hits taken (explosives going around the system). Another still awarding special values to a given hit (how well they count towards shield destruction). Such thing would take too much time and thougth for our dear GoW devs though. For a giggle, Tycoonius on Easy would have 16 damage per s1, so his "s1" would break the first proposal's shields.

NOTE: Imagine the fight for Atlas' Handle if we could just mash out rapid attacks or deal direct damage to break shields. No need to build-up for t0/t3 (or have LotF) to free-up a Legionnaire. Makes things a bit easy unless you're talking about VH NUR or higher (though Artemis would still do well with shield busting with direct attacks *PR would still be serviceable unless it specifically got shit on by the 'magic' shield so something could stand up the almightly OP spells*). Shame petrification didn't get another chance to shine by ignoring shields (and ZF needed at least the charged variants of it to automatically destroy the shields if not acting like they weren't there in dealing damage while breaking them).

>Satyrs weakened with time

>into Minor Grunts

For starters, our "Satyrs" are Fauns. Proper Greek Myth Satyrs would be a shit fit for GoW (imagine how our boys are associated with goats and now change out those qualities for 'horse' bits). Their drinking, raping, crap music playing and general 'dick out' ways aren't a great match. Fauns are Pan-lite. GoW likes to pull from Roman Mythology as often as Greek (and usually pop culture versions of either before further bastardizing as they see fit).

Having said this, I wouldn't mind the Pandoran Satyr (GoW1), Satyr Champion (GoWII) and Olympus Satyr (GoWIII) keeping their names (though erroneous in the face of what I'd next be suggesting). Even the under-developed Satyr Captain (that utterly failed to be a 'Satyr' in any meaningful way *nor was it a 'Captain' as it couldn't rally even the Satyr Grunts which is what the devs led us to believe they would do) from GoW:A. Frankly, I'd rather have the Centaur General do this (with Centaur Archers/Hades Centaurs returning from GoW1 as an alternate enemy type) as the lesser Centaurs of GoW:A just be forgotten (not enough point to their existence).

Captains don't have much good going for them (a blockable grab out of an evade and chain blade antics). Satyr Champions have more HP, but less petrification resistance. Their attacks are too linear, but their OS kill is neat. Olympus Satyrs have a launcher (neat), parry (no counter-attack) and wall bound (grab or hit depending on how it connects). Satyr Champion (neater appearance) could keep its lame linear strings, but also use the moves of the Olympus variant (no need for both) while having more HP, okay grab damage and lower petrification resistance. GoWII took away aerial recovery, the attack property of the wake-up animation and their grab (pretty sure we lost one of the melee flurries too). Fake-out stance was kept (it is a neat punish to casuals who spam light attacks). It is best it return to how it was in GoW1 (the Hades variant is basically the same, but drops more MP/HP orbs on death, has less petrification resistance and has more HP *sort of like what I'm advocating for the Champions*).

However, I would fancy their OS damage be as hard as it was in GoW1 in exchange for GoWIII damage from it (very, very high). That and their OH and air OS be as strong as in GoWIII (quite potent). I think the the Satyr Champion could have its old OS kill as an OS damage while the OS kill would be the Olympus variant (while making the collisions it can cause during the flight path into full damage cases hitting multiple times during flight like BR, but without being static to balance it). This is to imply I would have a Satyr Champion not be a general grab type (instead, 'dizzy'). I'd have the regular (Pandoran) OH be the Slam allowing OH redirection (or alt.OH to pull into the mini-game struggle that also lacks i-frames) and their wake-up attack's super armor frames end just before becoming attack frames (allowing the OH lock of GoW1). Champion wake-up would be more like GoWII and their OH as well (knocback type) in that the lock would need to be done against a wall or else they super armor through it during wake-up. You might have noticed that Champion has no talk of the fake-out (it has the counter) nor air recovery, but with the latter we could instead give it the ability to trigger an air counter stance as its escape from juggles (based in rapid hits). Air recovery can work against a Satyr (ringing itself out), but an air parry wouldn't be as damning (but should trigger later into a juggle). That and maybe having the Champion version able to counter wall splat locks with their wall bound grab (maybe giving a Pandoran Satyr no such trick for escaping a single hit into splat lock *often quite weak though those are*).

NOTE: I feel like there is sufficient room for the mixing-and-matching to give us two unique Satyrs. It might be funny if a Satyr Champion could toss their staff at us for an attempt at impale to send us far away (maybe into a wall splat with a mini-game where we need to mash out like when Wolverine gets stuck on spikes...or off a cliff for instant death like what happens in CotG10 when a Satyr dumps you over the side like a punk *though their grab is blockable where the wall bound grab isn't when it registers as a grab *which should probably be open to parries and air blocking*).

Anyway, CoO gave us Satyrs (Faun) and Satyr Grenadiers (another Faun) with 'Dark' versions (now a 'dizzy' state grab condition to make them less laughable). GoS forgot about 'Dark' versions and Grenadiers (pity), but gave these 'Fauns' a long range slide for a grab (might have been open to a parry) which seems like a good move for the more elite 'Dark' version to have. Fauns are somewhat boring as they are and could use more elements from a neat foe type like the Beast Lord (charge with LONG active period and 0 damage guard break before a follow-up you have time enough to defend against even after the guard break, summon of a mount and mounting). Wouldn't even need the (Olympus) Fiend riders GoWIII half-assed (then Grenadiers could fulfill the role of a rider that tosses projectiles from atop a Cyclops or whatever else gets programmed for them to ride *finally get the Cerberus finished for that and maybe have Fauns ride Harpy Queens while tossing shit at us in a less crap way than was done with Amazons*).

NOTE: So I support merging Beast Lords with Satyrs, but calling them Fauns as distinct from our misnamed, but beloved classic Satyrs. BL elements would help these Fauns be less boring foe types. Maybe just not have normal Fauns (Grenadiers can stay 'general' grab types with their fireball *pool* and mounting) and have them be low HP, but 'dizzy' state types with the charge, slide grab, summon and mounting. It would also be nice if the fire pool created by Grenadiers could do appreciable friendly fire damage, propagate, etc. Use them for puzzles and secrets too (Dark Souls and other games manage as much). Optional stuff preferred. You know how I like to advocate for more friendly fire (and in-fighting *SWFU1 had factions that hated each other, but allies could damage each other too in some cases*).

NOTE2: Satyrs and Fauns both have association with music instruments, drinking, amorous behavior, etc., but I'm mostly interested in the idea of buffs, debuffs, etc. which could be possible through use of instruments (but I'd prefer the High Priests of GoWII come back for that role while splitting the different types up between variations on each other *one curses evasion, another takes away jumps, another takes away blocks; one saps HP, one saps MP and another takes RP; one focuses on the melee, another focuses on summoning and another focuses on buffs/debuffs; one is open to all grabs, one is a dizzy type and another is a wander type; one is open to OH/air OS, another teleports out of the way of air OS while the other teleport evades OH; one uses energy geyser as in GoWII, one uses a long lasting AoE curse circle for DoT and another uses triple overhead like Siren Sibyl, etc.*). Might be a bit much if any version had teleport bombs (or time slow *witch time*) outside maybe a buff/self-buff state where they become worthy foes on their own (AI stops focusing on making mobs or helping them). Taking away i-frames during their ground OS mini-game (which we've never had for Satyrs) alone might be enough to help them out (or just one version).

>Juggs/Talos

Meaty Tanks that rush you down with blockable, slow attacks (big damage), eh? I can dig it. The GoW:A version shouldn't have made the i-frame state during armor breaks. The unique attacks were fine, but not so much making us wait (or use a glitch to make them possible to damage). It would be less annoying if a case where they had such a state also had an environmental aid like a fire sacrifice to instant kill them with (or cliffs). Talos are immune to petrification as is (Juggs are not and shouldn't have such a perk). It would help if Juggs had at least one guard break or unblockable option (perhaps the very telegraphed Hades Minotaur *GoWII* overhead slam, but I rather like that Minotaur variation for being immune to launches, having said unblockable and block/countering).

Do we need Juggs if we have Talos? As before, I like the idea of having large HP targets like Fates Juggs that are vulnerable to petrification (giving credence to its existence), but also enjoy the petrification immune alternative (that should have less HP, but still plenty). Probably doesn't need to be variations of both (as they are pretty similar, so they are themselves variations on each other). Electric Talos had suction with the AoE attack, Fire Talos had the tracking overhead (I forget if it was unblockable *I think it was made as such, but started as blockable *I would have preferred it requiring a parry or air block to defend against if not evading it*) and Ice Talos had the ground wave (unblockable) to push us away (multi-hit), but not build-up freeze (so whatever). No Soul variation. Could a Talos have these three different attack means (using different elements during each of its three sections of life between armor breaks)? Seems fine by me. I don't know that it needs to do the attack automatically upon armor break though (that's a bit lame, but having them spam these specials would also be annoying). Maybe they ought to be kept simple by just pressuring us (charges to blockable hits) with no unblocakbles and fancy tricks at all. Meh.

>stun system in GoW:A

I hated the results of them trying to work this in. Extremely poor execution and frankly, it seems too much for them to ever really handle (too much balancing comes up). Keep it simple with damage reduction like in the past. Safest bet.

>inescapable grabs

Tether state? Potentially the 'new QTEs' too (just keep 'dodging').

>attack or weapon with special stun state

>freezing, shocking, etc.

I feel like they aren't up to the challenge for all this business. Too much thought (again).

>monster covered in eyes

Argus (dropped boss from GoWIII)? I remember him chasing us around in the dark, but we used HH to blind him for openings (in concept). HH was used to make Shades tangible before that was given to Olympus Sirens just to make use of the mechanic.

>avoid protection/escort

>too easy to go wrong

But they also make things more interesting as with other gimmick fights (timed fight before room kills you, for instance). Clones were a bit too numerous, spawn pools for a given foe changing places was annoying and their super armor could mess with you (aside from targeting rearing its head now and again). Being able to transfer our life to our family helped (along with getting back rage for those with lvl2+ *though MAX is where you wanted to be for RotG to allow MP spam abuse of upgraded PR and AoH during infinite magic via "Athena's Blessing"*; we get no perk for this when at lvl1 with the Blades *the game doesn't account for it* and it needed to with either reduction to life drain, increased heal speed, increased recovery time from heal, getting MP back instead of rage or something). It was also a fight without a checkpoint (gauntlet style) on top of being a protection mission.

This happens again with Tranny. Two easy fights that allow barrier abuse (in two ways) followed by a third where no such trick is available. It also enabled our protectee to take damage from collisions and NOT be healed (much less in exchange for something like 'rage'). Checkpoint exploit helps (but that's outside their intention as with family moving glitch *which we can't do in any way much less by design for Tranny during the W3 unlike the previous two which are possible to skip as shown by Shenminiue years ago during his second speedrun*). Like the Artemis Clones doing Hades Gift for super armor and major damage, Priests can use Energy Geyser in the same way. It really fucks things up for us and our solutions are few to stop it (petrification, grabs, outright killing them, etc.).

Tranny would also have benefited from a means to use the Amulet during the fight (aside from moving Tranny around and possibly exploiting high ground with a glitch placement or putting him a corner instead of the center of the room *maybe have special healing circles fade in and out rather than damaging circles to place him in if you want to cart him about*). Maybe it is a single use that breaks the source after you do it, maybe you have to pull a (hidden) lever to reveal it, maybe it is visible briefly after a set period of time elapses during the fight or whatever, but that state would greatly improve one's chances outside PAIN+ (aside from it being possible to use AotF outside the presence of the Fates *maybe at the cost of a long cooldown and shorter duration even if an upgrade ability to do so though better if the upgrade just reduced the heavy drawbacks*) As you know, rage drains incredibly slow during time dilation (quite exploitable) aside from making it easier to control fights in general.

NOTE: If need be, have the coward not trying to help us (Tranny) have one of their jewels on his head or something and he only looks at us when he takes a hit of some kind, so you gain a moment's window to activate the effect only when he gets hurt (which helps justify the option plenty). Another solution (that might have been a bit much) would be to have the block be a Fates Statue itself, but that would only work for W1 and W2 unless there was a way for us to escape the room with the block and Tranny (and if ourselves locked in, have time enough to evade roll before the gate closes lest we be locked in). One puzzle solution would be to stop the door up with the Fate statue (not too unlike what is done for the other Auditorium's Tranny, get on the other side and drag it out after taking the Tranny out. Then you have both and can bring the statue into the W3 area before being locked in with Tranny and enemies. Just being able to do that would pretty much destroy the fight unless said statue block is 'cracked' when you do the trick stopping up the door so that using it once or twice shatters that source of time slow.

I feel things like the above noted would have helped a lot with making the fight more doable, but, yes, protection/escort types in their true form have been historically troublesome in GoW (and they do not think hard about how they will go for VH and beyond *balanced for Normal*). I still feel hesitant to totally rule them out. CoO missed its chance to make Elysium more interesting (Calliope) aside from a proper gauntlet at the end (just like GoW1 lacked at the final bit of Hades). GoWIII had Pandora, but she was completely invincible (and a nuisance for creature training and being open to our grabs *exposing us*), so very boring. Being able to evade attacks helps, but it would be better if she could be hit too (just that she is more durable than our usual protectees maybe). Having the 'grab' transfer life would, again, be good (in exchange for MP and/or rage). Might also have been nice if she could be picked up and brought to the higher wall for a place to hang-out outside reach of some foes with some sort of system in place to encourage us to get her down eventually (maybe a warning goes off to let you know you have ten seconds to get her down before spikes come up, a fire jet bursts under her, etc.). The healing and means to have a (temporary) safe spot would assist the already evasive Pandora as someone for us to protect. GoS had us teamed with Deimos, but there was no protection involved with it. GoW:A never saw us having to keep Orkos safe (or anyone else).

>enemies focused on support

Priests are a favorite of mine (as you might have picked up on above). I briefly touched on (three) alternate version for them (originally GoWII was to have two of them, but details about this are not known in how they were planned to differ beyond appearance). Beast Lords have support aspects by summoning and mounting aside from their guard break (keeps pressure on as they chase you), but I've already suggested fusing them to 'Fauns'.

Breeders with their birthing is lovely (and Seeds that grow-up are nice too). Being able to ride them like Mongrels would make for another good facet. I'm unsure if there should be a (Fates) "Cerberus" (GoWII). A bit too simple. Cerberus Bastard/Mole Cerberus was nice (though a bit too tanky) for flame breath, multi-fireballs and charge (that could end in a taunt *opening*). Its paw stomp was a bit underwhelming (HCB has the best version). Hades Cerberus had the straight fire ball (lame), a decent paw stomp, charge pressure, multiple phases (forced from what I recall *again, don't need the GoWII "Cerberus" if other things do the job better*). HCB didn't use fireballs at all outside its amazing stomp, had good pressure (charge) and it birthed unique HCWs (another means to make up for lacking fireballs). It had multiple stages (but forced them for sure) and entirely too much HP. Cerberus Mongrel was rideable (very nice), put on pressure, had a basically unused and useless flamethrower (amazing when we use it) and GoWII Cerberus fireball spam. GoWII saw Breeders become too heavy to launch (so no air OS or OH *much less an infinite*). Both versions had an OS damage (GoWII's had a false OS glitch and shrinking while GoW1's version had false fireball casts at seeming random). I think only the GoW1 version had a grab though. Soul Cerberus Mongrel had the burrow attack (annoying blockable right into unblockable *would be better with a larger pause between them or a second blockabe before the unblockable*). Otherwise, it is Cerberus Mongrel with an OS damage that is mounting (via stuns).

How can we get the best of them? Breeders from GoW1 are preferred, but with false OS provoking them into a counter paw swipe (minus the glitch unless made feature that damaged them only when they are trying to use fireballs or birth *logic being that they choke on either to harm themselves*; maybe a fair amount of rage orbs for denying fireballs this way and a small amount of HP orbs for denying birthing this way). Slow moving (no charge). Multi-fireball (straight shots that are blockable) without GoW1 glitch. Too large to launch like in GoWII (much as I enjoy this). OS damage still exists at mid-life. Able to grab. Able to birth (obviously), but it creates Cerberus Seeds (that can grow-up unlike HCWs that exist to kamikaze), which we can use against it and heal from (loads of HP orbs from OS kill like GoW1).

Perhaps 250HP again (dizzy after 230 damage or so). High MG/Low MB petrification resistance (500), high statue HP (20) and slow break-out time (4 seconds). Compared to GoWII Breeder, this has half the resistance (why it was tied with Gorgons is beyond me), same statue HP and slightly slower break-out time. EH would need two GF at lvl2 (one at lvl3) to petrify it instead of a GR.

Cerberus Mongrel can be more like Cerberus Bastard/Cerberus Mongrel (no need for Hades Cerberus from GoWIII). Still rideable. Multi-fireball (strafes with arced shots that require at least an air block or parry *not simply blockable* lest you be guard broken). Flamethrower (blockable, but extremely damaging while not being blocked). Stomp ought to at least be a guard break. Charge into headbutt, evade, paw swipe, etc., but the chase does end after going on long enough (ends in taunt opening them up to launches). Perhaps 200HP, but reaches "O" early at 150. Open to launch/bounce, but with wake-up super armor (GoW1 style long recovery time), less height from either, falls faster out of juggles and no infinite (but significantly higher damage than in GoW1 to compensate). I'd give it the OH of GoW1 (Slam), but with no alt.OH. Just the ability to redirect is enough should they ever be by a cliff (or we slam other things with them *which stuns the Cerberus for a good while*). Like GoW1's Breeder (and Minotaur Tormentors), this variation would need to be resistant to launches/bounces (small openings like a short taunt, its idle animation (almost non-existent between attacks with VH's aggro), when already in the air, etc.

Low MG petrification resistance (250), good statue HP (15) and slow break-out time (4 seconds). Compared to GoWII Cerberus, this is 150 less resist, same statue HP and faster break-out time. With GoWII's EH, launch to lvl2 GF would be enough for him to be instant killed.

HCB could return as it was, but NOT forcing stages (instead, head rips would be dizzy state openings for extra damage of something like 50HP from the total, but with a smaller opening than in GoWIII *maybe with dizzy states at 250 damage, 450 and 550*). It's HP of something monstrous like 900 would be stripped to 600 (equal to Cerberus Bastard) which is still a lot (but with classic collisions to consider on VH, each dog kick would be 50 for a full collision and still 25 if they were made into half collisions (20 damage dealt statically in GoWIII). Full would mean 5 and half would mean 10 for the first 250 damage before a dizzy state for a 50 damage grab. Supposing you get the grab, you need to deal 150 more damage (3 full or 6 half collisions). If you land the next grab, you need only 50 damage (1 full collision or 2 half collisions) before you can use the last head removal opening to finish it off. Without getting the dizzy state grabs, it just takes a few more extra kicks be it half or full. Still too heavy for launches. Still births HCWs (but I would prefer their explosion deal damage when it hits HCB if only at 10 damage per case). Maybe allow false OS to make HCB choke on its kids too (for perhaps 15 damage per HCW *higher damage for being internal* he would have birthed with maybe MP orb drops for each explosion *just for the Hell of it really*), but it tanks through false OS during other animations (where the other Breeder can be pretty well pressured with false OS like in GoWII). Like HCB in GoWIII, three heads means it likes birthing three HCWs at a time. Two heads for two HCWs. One head for one HCW. Each head removal making it more fond of charging all the sooner.

Regarding petrification, I'd see that it worked on him, but he be well protected for a non-Gorgon. High MB petrification resistance (900), very high statue HP (50) and slow break-out (5 seconds). EH's GR is the most practical way to catch it. On lower settings with high power and upgrades, that's no sweat to break. For something like VH NUR+, 50HP in 5 seconds in a given title might prove somewhat difficult. Maybe petrifying it during birthing would give you the damage from each failed HCW. If considering the mini-boss in Stages, S1 would have a potential for three (45 damage of the 50 needed), S2 with potential for two (30 damage of 50 needed) and S3 could only offer 15 damage of the needed 50. Catching it during birthing would always be advantageous (and more so in an early part of the fight) and could easily bring its statue HP down to size. Another consideration would be if you petrified it while HCWs were out. Supposed it was a full collision. For VH with default Kratos, it would be 50 damage to just OS one HCW at HCB (instantly destroying the statue to make a joke of the fight). If a half collisions, 25 of 50 makes for a fair chunk and it might be possible to get two HCW returns before he breaks out anyway. I feel this balancing would work well as an alternative to needing loads of HCW returns (maybe some grabs) or having to chip him for 600 life (NGR+ NUR+ would have to get smart and have S3's three HCW's blow up near a petrified HCB *supposing you could pull it off at all* to take off 30 of its 50 statue HP). More likely you would just have to chip away at him and maybe get the odd HCW to blow up near it for more chip.

NOTE: Discussing these things takes loads of thought, time, etc. Reading at length, replying at length, etc. Again, I suggest my old links provided for plenty of material to comb over (while not quite covering every idea I've ever put forward). Shame gow3forums is down (I feel my petrification critique of GoS made for good reading, but I guess you've seen that before in the past).

There are other 'supports' (Nymphs of GoWII liked to mainly distract us or hold us down), but I don't wish to keep on too much longer. Hell, many enemies can play the support role in a sense. One of the buffs of Priests could be a simple group heal, another could be to make foes hit harder/increase aggro (on VH, the latter wouldn't do anything) and another still might be more super armor and weight (not unlike DMC or Bayonetta). Rally is itself a neat ability (as with mounting). I was hoping GoW:A would do more with it (instead of dropping it and about doing the same to mounting).

>Stheno

I'd like to differ to my past coverage. I think the links have some talk of Stheno's Head as a spell (also toying with 'weapon' and 'item' talk for petrification), her Claws as a weapon, her wings as a relic (didn't ever think to have it do the Icarus Wing specials, but applying a tiny bit of petrification per hit and maybe passively petrifying those nearby if gliding around them *like DaS2II's Butterfly Set*) and her armor as another relic (Fleece). Nothing going to waste with the boss. GoW doesn't really do things that way though (and they have a hard-on for things coming from a fight more so than just coming across them *GF in GoWII originally was just found in the bog at the temple we collapse, but then they used Mole Cerberus as a boss that took the Fleece from Jason*).

NOTE: It's easy to talk about her head as a spell though. Just make it like EH, but fix Gorgon Blast (make it homing, linger longer for freeze over time, more cost efficient as an alternative to Flash, etc.) and allow Stare to be active while casting Flash or Blast. Not much else need be said. Making Stare as efficient as GoW1 on-top of all this...suits me fine.

>real Cerberus

One of these days...

NOTE: I think I have a boss proposal giving some sort of format for it. I think early on it is an environmental fight at the Gates of Hades before it breaks lose and it becomes a more technical fight. I no longer recall specifics well. That was many years ago. Not as long as the old Phoenix idea (pre-GoWII) that was to fill the void of the dropped (and still never re-used) Upper Pandora's Guardian (Harpy Boss).

>Achilles

Not super sure how to go about this one. Would it be fine to treat him like a normal boss (deplete HP), but the QTE just has us go after his weakpoint? If he's just immortal along the rest of the body, we could work it like that. If invincible elsewhere, would we need to attack that foot specifically? Would we be using a Brad Pitt look-alike for the killing? Would he do fancy movements like in Troy? I'm pretty sure the GoW devs would be all over it. At least it would give some clear ideas for attacks he could use (GoS Kratos using AoS had the leaping spear thrust as an ender aside from spear tosses).

Would his cousin and gay lover (>implications) come out at some point in the fight to help, we kill him to end that phase and it sends Achilles into a rage (perhaps making him less capable as a warrior instead of evading/blocking our attacks and punishing us like a pro)? Would he start off in his chariot (for giggles, dragging the dead Hector behind *us being able to maybe use the body in someway if only to destroy it for HP, MP and RP orbs not unlike the corpses at the Clotho fight*) and we need to damage it/his horse? Perhaps we could break Hector's corpse away and rather than simply pop-it for orbs, jam it into the wheels (instant derail) or something as a means to avoid chipping the wheels (their own HP total each) or horse (its own HP). If allowing for deity aid, perhaps those angry with the Greeks (and specifically Achilles) at the time would be able to offer aid in minor ways during the fight. Apollo (or Helios since they prefer him) had his temple desecrated in Troy, so they can use that jazz with something blinding him at some point or whatever (or just give us the damn bow again).

NOTE: Obviously I'm trying to make more to the fight than a straight technical battle as that is how GoW tends to do things. Sure I want technical phases to the fight, but pure technical isn't really what GoW is known for (or excels at). There tends to be a gimmick, different phases with a cutscene, multiple grab states, etc. No idea what we could get from killing him, but I suppose not every boss really gives you a weapon, spell or whatever. Theseus sure didn't give us his staff (just a 'key' to progress ahead). Skorpius, prick that he was, just gave us a cocktease with Boreas' Icestorm (another potential way we could have had 'freezing' other than Gorgon Serpent Soul Summon or just having Stheno in the Caves of Olympus perhaps instead of Skorpius). It was just another key. Same for the 'Liquid Fire'. Not sure what that would do. I suddenly had the thought of 'ice clones' as decoys that can explode for freezing things that fall for it and make contact or Liquid Fire allowing Thera's Bane and even Durga Bomb type charge attacks, fire pools, flamethrowing (liquid type), etc. I suppose I could come up with something for either, but I don't much feel like it right now.

>Kratos vs Cratos

Not sure where and why we would encounter him. He should have been guarding Prometheus. I guess we could meet him there at Etna (again) by Typhon, but this time not be ready or interested in freeing Prometheus or messing much with Typhon (maybe have that city escape they dropped from GoWII *though their plan was with Pegasus who should only exist post-Medusa kill*). We merely scare away Ethon (giant eagle) in GoWII. Perhaps it factors into the fight with Cratos to give it more layers (the bird gets away). I suppose there could have been another 'campsite' for where Prometheus was being held prior to being moved to Etna. Not sure if there is another good time or place we could come across our namesake. He's the will of Zeus, so I'd imagine he would mostly be against us if Zeus was (which implies post-GoW1 at the very least).

>boss levels are shallow

They don't have to be the whole show, but they tend to be, yes. Cronos didn't even sort of become so much as an environmental fight (Hope manifesting to close the gap) much less a technical-esque fight (he would still be larger than us like Hades was during our battle, but the difference between Olympian height and Titan height isn't so enormous that it would have to rule out technical fighting (again, Hope closing the gap more until reaching its limits). I'd rather he find out he had 'hope' (or accessed the power of the Box again or something) this way (or be too stupid to understand what was happening and need Athena to explain it post-fight). Mostly so Cronos isn't just a level boss even if the power runs out too soon and we end up scurrying around before proceeding with the silliness that was Cestus and BoO slaying him.

NOTE: Ladon (very old proposal) would be a 'level' in a different sense (the same was Hydra was). I suppose there is room to make it huge enough to clamber around on it in the Cronos sense, but I don't know that I would want to unless they put in a Dragon's Dogma (or SotC) style of climbing (at least for this fight) on its body. Not sure that would work out. Probably better to stick to the original plan I had for it. Excuse for a sex mini-game (rescue Hesperides *optional to save them for reward of upgrades to HP, MP and RP respectively*) when all are gathered (optional for loads of EXP at around 5-10K). Plenty of Hydra-esque moments with a head that bursts into a hall (Hall Hydra) and through the floor (Deck Hydra and Twin Hydra). Some blocking the way up (Twin Hydra headbutting the mast), others speaking in different tongues as part of level ambiance, etc. Hesperides guiding us through a maze not unlike the Garden in GoWIII and Challenge of Hades using sound (singing like Desert Sirens in Desert of Lost Souls). All this to kill the boss over some golden apples (of Immortality). Ambrosia is good stuff, son. I had suggested this for GoWII pre-release so Kratos would have a way to get his immortality back while assuming he needed it to harm gods, I think.

>Poseidon

Still wish he had a technical phase at the end.

>Pandora's Guardian

Though, like Hydra King, exploits exist to make a mockery of it. HK can be easily locked, his 'twins' skipped, regeneration mostly denied (hard to time), etc. (L)PG has the infamous sweet spot aside from being pretty easy to evade even down below (stick to the left side and evade through his swipes and punish). He also has the multiple lever pull exploit (easiest and most effective for skipping his armor stripping Stage, but can be done in a super exploitative way to skip most to S4 pretty quickly *then take just enough life off before gaming the system again*; satvara showed this well).

>don't take away weapons for boss fights

What do you specifically refer to with this?

>trash talking encoruaged

Some do it better than others, but yeah.

>Blades breakdown

I've gone into some detail already above, but much, much more in the past.

>Tether as passive upgrade

I'd still rather having it as a special grab input as with HC. I agree it needs to be an upgrade though. Part of why I say it needs to be a special is the targeting issue is made worse with extended reach. Another is that Tether state is different from OS in options. If Tether could pull things in for the classic OS grab select too, sure, whatever.

>rage for MAX

RotT allowed the MID modifier at lvl1 and MAX at lvl2 without giving us the upgrade abilities/moves. RotG didn't grant unlocks or modifier change, but instead 2x Power % while active. Both increased Armor % (RotG had less at lvl1 and more at lvl4), gave tanking, ignored petrification, broke out of some grabs (and statue state), had unique moves (more notable with RotG, but 'Inferno' was a neat idea I'd like to see again along with something that spends EXP to power itself up not unlike Great Resonant and Resonant abilities in DaS2 *Hell, a spell with cheap casting costs could be as such only so long as you have EXP to blow instead and the input for trying to use EXP up too would be a held input while the spell should have multiple casting types for single target attacking, weapon buff, a damaging AoE maybe as a status effect and an HP buff or heal*). As before, I like RotT and RotG. They both bring different things to the table as 'rage' options. I don't know that we really need the full movelist change of either though. TotF from RotG is plenty aside from the damage boost (and MAX perk Athena's Blessing). RotT would offer Torment (meh) and Inferno (cute, but takes away ground blocking with the Blades). RotG takes far longer to build-up and is a truer super state, but RotT can be used more often (builds faster, can be turned off, can be activated when not full, orbs exist to fill it, etc.). RotT on a 1.0 weapon would be equal to RotG on that tool when considering even lvl1 RotT (RotT lvl2 would be stronger than what RotG offers for a given weapon until you reach half the max modifier). RotT was available without upgrades and wasn't tied to the Blades, but both are true of RotG. RoS mostly offered 'rage cancels'. GoW:A had augmented heavies (that's about it), but at a cost of them being good in the first place.

>Argo's Revenge/Return as O input

No need for Ram or Rise, I'd say. Having the old enders would be nice (no i-frames) along with that 'newer' one (for i-frames). Again, I'd have Argo's options be Power % immune. Having Return be dependent on an input would help with avoiding DQ's from a simple parry. Of course, if we start the game with said 'return' (coming from the Blades themselves like GoS), we wouldn't really be needing to worry about this in PAIN+ (though I opted to avoid them, it was not a run condition).

NOTE: I'd like upgrades to give us an air parry. Seems like the sort of goodness you only get with plenty of investment, so at least lvl4.

>bring back MoH

I'd also like to propose it deal better damage with the ender (Might). Having each of its possible hits (depending on how long it keeps contact with something) land for Valor damage would be nice.

>classic t1 with slow/fast variation

Of course. Thus wanting BoC (GoW1) normals in general. Buffered T and t1 were lovely.

>pursue off T without landing it

Along with pursue i-frames and GoW1 T damage (basically, just copy GoW1 on this topic *though GoW:A's jump cancel would be welcome if frame specific*). I went over this earlier in this post, I think.

>Stheno's Claws

Something I believe we discussed at length pre-GoW:A (and should be in the links).

>Eros Bow

I don't know if my old talks included toying with his bow as a even a relic alternative to Apollo's. I know I spoke about Artemis (Ultra Greatbow) in the past. It was, as you would expect, mostly focused on trampling/piercing shots, knockback, high damage per hit (low fire rate), etc. Not sure I can imagine the classical bow of Eros being all that capable with high damage, heavy knockback, piercing shots (imitating BoO's DR). More likely BoO's AotG, TB's CWB, etc. TB is a good past tool to look at (aside from Bow of Apollo) as a reference for how GoW handles such things.

As an actual weapon? How daring. But, I suppose Bayonetta 2 would be a good example of this being done recently, wouldn't it? Couldn't really give it poison in this case unless getting a bit farfetched with the explanation (heartbreak/ache or something silly). *though I would still like a poison source* Having it able to create affinities would be hard to work into the system (the opposite would be more useful with creating different factions). Maybe it makes them love us and join our side for a period of time once the effect builds up (a variation on the petrification system). They start attacking former allies. Direct damage for attacks building this meter would probably have to be pretty pathetic. They over-state the value of range in GoW to the point that they are afraid to give things equal or more range than the Blades unless it is a spell/item with 'low' damage per hti.

NOTE: A 'decoy shot' could be a special (perhaps with upgrades) to lure at least some enemies to a marked spot (as if they are 'longing' for it). Place near a trap, over a cliff, etc. If the normal attacks don't track, maybe have a special for tagging foes like the Bullseye of R:FoM (can become fairly advanced if allowing the Bullseye Trap/Bomb exploits of that game here too). Homing shots achieved. Again, I like the idea of having knockback/piercing charged shots (long charge probably), poison (or another DoT), etc., but I'm trying to make sense of them. Piercing isn't all that hard work with, but it is knockback and poison that I snag on when imagining a small bow with tiny arrows. Still, vidya, so it doesn't have to make sense for the charged up shot, I guess. That still leaves poison being explained away short of just saying "VIDYA GAEMS".

Having 'affinity' shots cause enemies to be passive without us is fine, though maybe each attack we land on them drains some of their timer as a counter-balance to free wins. I can't justify petrification with this weapon (the best logical leap I can come up with is being so grossed out with us that we petrify them with our appearance). Auto-shatter is fine by me. Put that on the charged shot/special. AoS had the heavy overhead special (bounce) and light overhead (multi-hit). Both are welcome. GoS had extra damage for the former on large targets. I'd like this to be the case for both. Bow strikes would need to be modeled on what Bayonetta does, but with less grace (and 'personality'), I'm sure. Freezing for an opening to land a stronger hit is one way (the other being to just hold things still for free hits), but I can't justify freezing. It already has the 'affinity' mechanic. If we had something for freeze build-up and landed shots from this during that, we could cause 'affinity' and then start building up freeze again (looping the two). Not so much with petrification. You could try for it during 'affinity' (without making the timer go down faster as it isn't dealing damage), but I'm unsure you should be able to inflict affinity build-up while enemies are statues. I guess it would be fine, though a little silly (it's magic).

You took marking in a different direction than I was thinking. 'Turrets' (flying cherubs seems more likely though inappropriate for Greek Myth *as with the SoD itself*) would be cute, but likely end up like Flicks/Legions in GoWII (less than a point of damage per hit and few hits each). Greek Myth does allow for this via Erotes (multiple Cupids *which somewhat reminds me of the little devils from one of the accessories Bayonetta uses*), so there is basis for such an attack. Upon re-reading up on him, the best way I can see (still a bit of a stretch) to achieve DoT like a poison is with 'fire', but not in a literal sense (fires of love consume the spirit of the unrequited). It is said some version saw him with a flaming torch, so why not mix the two to some extent? Again, I can't really justify actual poison here, but a DoT is a DoT, amirite? I don't know that this sort of fire could or should propagate like Inferno with Apollo's Bow, but we are talking (godly) magic here. Marking the target for an eventual (timed) overhead with a small AoE, but good damage would be neat. I can't think of a reason that would make Zeus intervene for us. We shooting into the sky, hitting a god and a random aid from one of them takes place? I'd already suggested a special that simply does this. i suppose a special that causes a shot to land and then explode moments later could serve as an eruption.

NOTE: Eros is a primordial in one version, Sibling to Aphrodite in another and child to her in another still. If you want, we can continue on about this idea in more detail, but I suggest reading this for some inspiration: http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Eros.html

>Armor of Achilles

I can't remember him being big on fisticuffs and we already have the Claws as a weapon suggested for this entry (people cry foul when two things are the same weapon class even if they work differently). If they had a dismemberment system (loads of work for one thing), it would be for the Claws, I'm sure (but they are from Stheno *which implies the weapon ought to be focused on petrification build-up, but having both systems suits me if they can manage it*). Same for the likes of an OT from NG. If we're talking a smaller GoS, but on all limbs, we end up with Beowulf done Kratos style, I suppose. Perhaps, as a perk, augmenting HC ground-and-pound or grabs in general (by some small measure).

The ranged options for it would be more about hit properties, you say? I sort of see it as being more about rapid hits (flurries in place of tirades). Though, mashing will probably annoying casuals to execute. Even more so if it is only possible to do after a charged release of a given normal. Casuals love hit count building things, right? Say s1 dealt 1 damage (very low base), but the MAX modifier was 3.0. This takes it to 3 damage. The charged hit could be 1.5x damage taking it to 4.5 per instance. Let's say the MAX number of extra hits during a flurry is five (one for each level of the weapon). All of this made up as I go with little thought. The s1 with a charged input and the extra hits would be 4.5/4.5/4.5/4.5/4.5/4.5 (27) at 100% Power (20.25 on VH *75%*).

A simple mashed out string of lights wouldn't be that impressive (especially at 1.0 and 75%) in damage, but good for power. Brief charges for a modifier each time would help the damage add up a bit. Upgrades to the modifier too (aside from more obvious things like not having shit Power %). Maybe lvl1 has the one extra hit you can input with mashing as a 'flash punch' that all other extra hits from future upgrades fit into (so same time frame spent, same animation, etc., but more hits that can land if something stays in the hit box). The mashing is just to activate the 'flash punch' as such (not the individual attacks). But it's simpler to just have the charge automatically go into the flash punch with continued holding (like tirades). That's probably the way it would have to be done, because "casuals".

Can't ask for crazy control scheme changes like having square as Left Punch, triangle as Right Punch, 'X' (cross as some say) be Left Kick and circle as Right Kick *Tekken talk*, but then need a jump input as annoying as x+o (or X+O for a charged jump). Can't exactly ask for mutli-face button inputs in GoW, can we? Besides, with that many normal inputs, the strings might be a bit too numerous for many to manage (without room for infinities like Artemis and some specific hit chains leading to enders for each input). I'd dig it even with the harder jump (or just have circle be kicks in general....or settle on light and heavy like usual). Now give me lock-on so I can input 'f,b,d/b,d,d/f,f+s' for Giant Swing (something like five spins each able to land collisions on a given foe while enjoying i-frames). But I'm joking around at this point (I'd love for more wrestling moves and greater complexities with inputs on some alternative to the easy mode Blades, but it won't happen). If something could give us enemy step, I'd have it be this weapon (also, add a multi-frame attack to rapid velocity falls like when we fall from great height or cheat and use an air block to accelerate *thanks Cerezita*).

>Soul of Ares

Covered that in the links provided.

>Rodin type

Some sort of unlockable with the ability to morph between WWs (if in a given entry), I take it. GoW:A should have had one. Might have discussed this in the past too.

>Staff

Something for casting lesser version of spells we get as we progress (maybe items too), but fore free (perhaps using cooldown as a system too)? Applying cast-and-forget to each in exchange for losing potency and i-frames? Not sure who would have such a weapon, but they made up SoD and were going to use Excalibur in GoWII (aside from non-Greek stuff elsewhere in the series). Merlin's staff? *hohoho*

So, for normals, would it be having things like Dragon's Dogma's staffs (charging for variable periods of time for variable strength casts *with long periods of time to charge being something like five seconds and either one level of power per second charged or one every 2.5 seconds and the hidden On-Landing Charge art to skip to halfway charge...half joking*)? Maybe different held inputs for different charged shots (Summon Swords circling us, SS above us, SS on foes, etc. come to mind)? Or how about Dark Souls style 'soul' arts (Soul Arrow, Soul Spear, Homing Soul Mass, Soul Shower, Soul Geyser, Soul Greatsword, etc. as attacks). Maybe 'Unleash magic' as a special to improve damage of all these silly ranged abilities. Would there be a means for it to augment our usual gliding with wings and make it into Nevan-like 'flight' (and attacks)? If we lack wings to augment, maybe we just have the abilty to 'glide' with the staff in the same way we do in DD.

I see Summoned Swords were on your mind too. Wicked Weaves too, eh? Would be particularly amusing if 'Unleash Magic' has an 'Unleash Might' variation making our normals do WWs, but during this temporary state, you could switch to another weapon (like the grieves/guantlets) and go to down with them. Demi type attacks are something I know we've discussed before, but I no longer recall the talk. Maybe that was in the old links provided too. If not, probably GFAQs or something. Maybe earlier in this very thread. I'd have to look back though.

>no humanizing

He's human enough (a monster is a type of human).

>savage brute

Another sort of human.

>respects

Strong word in some cases.

>in denial or reserved

I suppose.

>shouldn't kill deities prior to GoW1

CoO be damned. GoW:A wouldn't run afoul of this with the Furies if they didn't treat them like gods (they were daemons which are above mortals and below gods). GoS would also get away with Thanatos (and Erinys) for the same reason, but they treat him like (something above) a god. The origin of the Fates varies, but GoWII's version from the secret website (questionable canon *not that it wouldn't be retconned in a heartbeat if it were canon*): http://cdn.instructables.com/FIQ/9KBQ/FHIK6GZE/FIQ9KBQFHIK6GZE.LARGE.jpg

Does GS has something to do with it?

Something to with gow3forums going down? No. I should probably seek a means to contact 'kratos' again. I'd rather take administration responsibility from him and pay for it myself at this point. He's always made it a pain in the ass to get a hold of him though.

EDIT

As if it wasn't obvious, I've made edits to my second post of this thread to include responses to SBK.

So, he doesn't want to pay the bill or he isn't aware of it?

>doesn't want to or not aware

Probably both, I'd say. That's how it was last time. He whined about the lack of GoW discussion (during the time of Lord sending dick pics and talking about raping Ghost's grandma while Ghost trolled him about his sensitivity to critique/mockery of Islam).

I still have to make a GoW:A Evaluation (after all my other tasks with it) and send that off to Papy as promised.

Can't see him directing another game.

They should quickly get on with making it "Champions of the Gods" as a standalone IP, download only, etc. and see it fail horribly (then truly be quit of this filth).

It would make a lot more sense. Use a much smaller team, don't worry about balance much, no online passes.

Could we have a mix of RotT and RotG's best qualities?

Certainly. Start RotT's damage reduction at 75%, increasing it by 5% at Lv 3 and Lv 5 Blades/whatever upgrades it (making it stronger without weakening base RotT). RotT's square string was good, but the triangle was meh. It'd be nice to have a unique Plume, Spirit, and Tempest of the Fates again. Restore T to it's old power in rage? For sub weapons, what about bringing them to MAX at base, and then having an upgrade that pushes them a level or two beyond MAX (using the normal power modifier)?

RoS had some appeal if only for cancels,

Cancelling hitstun is fine, but interrupting our attacks could get annoying (like with Nero's DT).

I wouldn't mind a 'third' rage option we can activate for 'dumps' and augmenting the likes of heavy enders,

DTE with rage would be neat (and better than the normal AoE magic), as well as letting us raging specific attacks like Thera's Bane did (without activating rage itself).

'balancing' is a big problem for them

Barlog did a fine job with it.

Seems more like 'item' territory from GoWIII (using up item meter that regenerates).

Agreed.

A return to MP units is preferred.

It is mandatory. Piqs ruins utility spells and items cover cooldown.

Spells tied to Power % should NOT be the norm.

Hurting MP efficiency is unacceptable. Part of the appeal was knowing magic was as effective on VH as it was on Easy.

We should have interesting variations aside from those though.

A melee spell?

maybe even Summon (SS with CoH had potential, but was horribly realized)

Spamming the Centaur General with normals was no joke, though.

GoW1/GoWII have the system with full/half cases and scaling with Enemy Power %

Even GK becomes scary tossing around 100 damage hits.

Because of BR, they took 'balance' too far and nerfed the whole system.

Having it deal 4 or 5 damage on normal then scaling up should work.

hard to motivate oneself to REALLY go into detail when no new entry is on the horizon

*eyes DMC*

*wipes away tears*

GoWII's balancing suits me best.

Here, here.

nor gaze damage to statues (if nerfed to be much less, that's fine as it is a bit silly for stare to deal 40 damage in a second *few if any statues should have that much HP as it is*

The ****?

There is also room in my heart for an alternative system like 'freezing' where the foe is slowed

They programmed it as such for Ascension. Should be easy to apply. Bayonetta 2 lets frozen enemies be grabbed by Alruna.

>frozen hit properties drop like Ascension's player base

Again, water proves to be the supreme element.

The main distinction, however, would come from holding the enemy still for free hits on their actual HP total

Given it being less potent, this should work on most bosses.

full speed push it into a wall for a shatter dealing large damage or send it careening off a cliff

Inb4invisiblewalls.

I don't know why Bayonetta doesn't do more with using this system for getting around at least to optional areas

It would come out of the racing and MP budget.

even a special grab (Bayonetta could toss the frozen enemy blocks).

Double collision damage (as if ringout wasn't enough)?

I've gone over how hard it would be to balance a weapon that passively builds up petrification in the past

But how great would Kratos using a gorgon like Bayonetta's Chain Chomp be?

Worse comes to worse, they can make an unlockable for it

They've been slacking in the post-game department.

With the normal (old) parry, having it able to return projectiles in their orignal state could be nice as an alternative to transforming them into a uniform damage projectile.

Especially if they scale with enemy power.

Still, I don't like them taking up the (R),t and (R),T spot.

Sucks to come out of an evade with shitty attacks. Keep them quick.

GoWIII's BoE for specials (though LotF is desired along with AF and Might).

LotF with AI barrier abuse would be extremely potent.

GoW1 was a tiny bit overboard with the ease and power of some cases.

Those poor cowmen.

Having two different Satyrs would allow for one to take inferior OH damage while being redirected and forced into a lock while the other has a safer, stronger OH type (with forced OH against walls).

Different grab cases for enemy variants would help spice up variety.

Enemy grabs should not scale with Enemy Power %

Nor deal damage to us WITH a successful reversal. Wasn't Cyclops grab damage around 100 damage on VH in GoS?

It was tailor made for utility types.

Executed quite well. A source of infinite, low commitment damage and added mobility/launch were great, especially in NURs.

Single target types in general aren't well received, I'd say.

If it's going to be single target, they should be the most MP efficient against individual enemies.

Casuals just do a terrible job

Yes they do.

They don't really catch groups and too often things break out of the statue

Does it ever cross their minds how great the reward is? 25 MP to kill a Cyclops? 50 for multiple? Even HoB made a mockery of Geryons with AoS.

It gives petrification a bad wrap even when it is VERY effective (for the foes it does work on) without being overpowered.

Would appreciate more methods of working around enemy HP.

The bow of GoWIII was quite effective.

Stone Talos never knew what hit them.

Then you have a very good reason to pick one over the other.

They could also mix cases with some heavy hits ignoring Power % and light hits that don't.

It didn't last long enough for good DoT for many large foes (nonsense) as was quite poor at propogation

If anything it should have burned longer against them due to their size.

where Charon's Wrath was very good and busted armor instantly as an extra perk *but it was a spell so...*

Nerf it slightly, make it an item and balance the game around it?

why not allow for a lvl3 EXP investment to make burning far more effective (longer lasting and greater damage per tic)?

Could we immolate ourselves to burn things?

I'd prefer that for TB in GoWII as rapid fire caused shots that missed or didn't count when landing

It really needed better MP efficiency to be more than utility with CR around.

Maybe make it such that the 2x (rapid) Flash property of knockback took in just one use. That would make lvl3 HoH/HH an on-demand knockback

Without touching enemies (no worries about being blocked).

Another MAX perk.

At that point it's Lv 1 PS with more cancelability.

They were stupid stingy with giving out big modifiers (the standard being 1.0 to 3.0 for MAX and they jipped the **** out of sub-weapons).

Get the feeling they set the MAX values first, then based the modifiers on how late they were in the story. Backfired in NURs (70% of potential power on the best aerial weapon? Yes please).

The boots (HB/BoH) were great for the air evade alone.

Kratos could finally escape groups that surrounded him without magic or a parry.

finally having wall runs *horizontal and vertical* passively and making it a weak attack if something is in our path

Woah now. Make Kratos too comfortable in the air and style concerns start popping up.

Maybe another MAX perk could be having the boots out, holding the input (L2, I believe it was) and then using (R) for a Hermes (ground) Evade behaving like trickster

A faster form of travelling than roll cancels? Lovely.

As far as attacking is concerned, Rush being able to launch was already great utility.

One of the best Satyr tools we ever had.

Localized time slow (sometimes with launch set-up) didn't exactly pan out

Interrupting large foes one on one could be nice, but usually wasn't worth it without upgraded Blades and Soul dump.

and how Geryon used it

A big self centered time slow bubble would fit perfectly in GoW.

OSoO is a bit dull when exclusively full auto-dopple at complete random while being OP from the start with huge cooldown

Between it and Soul dump, melee was pretty discouraged in Ascension.

It failing against bosses made no sense

Dat programming.

Alternative casts would be good as with how Bayonetta did it

Didn't Bayonetta's clones not fire projectiles? I recall them being less effective with Rodin's laser hoop.

They've done well so far with Icarus Wings (neat specials and gliding),

One of the few good L1+X specials we've had.

that could easily be used to give Kratos some directional input moves/specials.

Possibly cancellable unlike block specials?

Artemis returning would almost demand the loss of some options in exchange for it as it was (alternatively, dropping some garbage *one of the specials* for the good stuff *R1 thrusts*).

Buff them a bit and give Artemis a decent power modifier. It should deal at least double damage compared to base with some good new moves.

AoS needed two shoulders buttons to pick from for its specials.

An excellent feature for any projectile weapon.

It should be noted that they'll probably avoid set-up weaons in the future as SoD and NW don't take with casuals (just like petrification with regards to spells).

But Whips are OP. Mash triangle to win. Good specials, good strings, tirades are very rare, magic was good, even the evade attack was decent.

>WW's

Couldn't have let us pick up the MP weapons and be done with it, could they?

We could just create enough distance (for long enough) to make them taunt back then. Also, we had more proper sweet spots.

How did they manage to botch the latter?

Special mention of the "taunt" for Siren Sibyl. I'm sure you know the one.

The one that protects them while summoning lightning from above with AoE that bounces us around? Taunt my ass.

While we're at it, the curious weightclass buff for the clearly smaller variant on the Gorgon Serpent (Hooded Gorgon) that even gained damage just for landing its grabs (while reversing got weaker). Nevermind the tracking added to its grab.

How did they expect anyone to melee more than one of these at once (forget about mixing in other enemy types).

These were not common and tended to make sense.

You could play through the games without ever noticing them.

The block stun is annoying shit too (giving enemy attacks the ability to lock us down in block stance for a longer recovery period making it more trying to punish them after defending).

And do they give us frame advantage on enemies for certain attacks? Nope. Load their asses with super armor.

Speaking of which, be mindful of when things are on or off-screen. Have them respect that we don't control the camera.

Quite. Bosses can do as they please, regular enemies not so much (especially with projectiles, charges and teleports). Reversible grabs can get away a bit.

Does it ruin the look? Make walls of varying sizes.

Would give them an excuse for some nice artwork (chains running along the top and what have you).

Larger ones to prevent a grounded knockback from going over them (needs to be airborne).

Not to hard to manage, and adds quite a bit of flavor. Would like another section with lots of water like the Breeder fight in GoW1.

Some can require the unblockable blows of a large foe like a Cyclops or something (having them open up a wall for use as a ring-out point even on them).

Could make for a neat puzzle fight. Never gave us a ring out tutorial before.

The South might not allow the BR to wall collision into instant kill *just keep running at it* while the North would have it function normally against thin air.

Suppose this is what's called 'full retard'.

Allowing such tactics makes a fight significantly more interesting.

And doable under PAIN+ conditions. No one's tried that chip war yet (for good reason).

When I hear this, I immediately think of what GoS pulled with foes you could not launch, bounce or knockback, but instead got an alternate 'blast'

Wouldn't mind it for minibosses, but keep that shit off mid sized enemies and lower.

No foe used the 'commander' ability. Not even the returning 'Generals'.

Ah, yes. They made fodder much more interesting. Wouldn't mind seeing commanders in as part of an ER fight.

wish GoWIII had managed to get the 'Shade' Wraith variant into the game along with Argus so HH would have served a bigger role in the game

The light sections weren't badly done.

but let others have means to do the same (even if that means they need to land specific hits that may take slightly more instances to enjoy the same effect).

Forgot about those. Would make armor and the like acceptable.

Cestus casually chipped shields, but no heavy moves from other sources could so much as scratch them.

Cestus’s lack of instant shield breaking outside magic was annoying.

GoS forced TB for chipping shields (direct damage or bombs for bursting off portions of armor), but left the AoS with no means to damage at all (couldn't augment with TB nor could its heaviest specials even dent armor).

Guess they didn’t want the Arms to completely outshine the Blades like the oven mitt did.

it is more palatable when it is an environmental thing we need to do for the fight to progress/end after the proper combat chipping takes HP low enough

Quite, and those should be rare too (none of this W101 shit where you must repeatedly turn a knob during a boss fight).

NOTE: Casuals carelessly cite RPG antics with elemental resistances, immunities *terrible*, affinities *how horrifying to have some options heal enemies* and weaknesses.

Stupid. DMC3 knew what it was doing (medium damage boost and some extra stun). That’s all that’s needed.

Staying away from elements is preferred as a general rule lest it invite such talks (and it isn't really what Greek Myth was about *too much excuse for generic shit*).

It disgusts me when RPGs use different damage types as an excuse to bloat the moveset with generic, boring attacks that are completely identical outside which element it is. You see some of this in Dark Souls with various projectile spells.

In GoW1, if any attack could break shields, but some were just far better/worse about it, I suppose that would work fine too. Imagine some guy needing at least the full string of 's,s,s,s,s' to land to break a shield versus the one landing of t0 to do the trick.

An attack here or there that bypassed them completely (without damaging armor) could be mixed in.

I suppose there could be two classes of Magic Legionnaire (one with the 15HP shield and another with something like 25 or even 30HP shields).

Given their status as joke enemies, that’d work fine.

Such thing would take too much time and thougth for our dear GoW devs though.

God forbid they release a demo first. 100 HP shields in the final game, for grunts that can be killed with one grab.

Imagine the fight for Atlas' Handle if we could just mash out rapid attacks or deal direct damage to break shields. No need to build-up for t0/t3 (or have LotF) to free-up a Legionnaire. Makes things a bit easy unless you're talking about VH NUR or higher

Nothing out of the ordinary.

>ZF

It couldn’t catch a break (despite being the most powerful godly gift we’d ever wield).

For starters, our "Satyrs" are Fauns. Proper Greek Myth Satyrs would be a shit fit for GoW (imagine how our boys are associated with goats and now change out those qualities for 'horse' bits).

>Boreas as a giant ice Satyr

Good grief. Even the under-developed Satyr Captain (that utterly failed to be a 'Satyr' in any meaningful way *nor was it a 'Captain' as it couldn't rally even the Satyr Grunts which is what the devs led us to believe they would do) from GoW:A.

It could have at least been a nice punching bag (if we had anything good to punch it with).

Frankly, I'd rather have the Centaur General do this (with Centaur Archers/Hades Centaurs returning from GoW1 as an alternate enemy type)

Hope they’d give the Generals a rally for other the centaurs. Reversing a herd of centaur charges would be hilarious.

However, I would fancy their OS damage be as hard as it was in GoW1 in exchange for GoWIII damage from it (very, very high).

A fine compromise, and it’d save time on grabbing them to death when isolated.

You might have noticed that Champion has no talk of the fake-out (it has the counter) nor air recovery, but with the latter we could instead give it the ability to trigger an air counter stance as its escape from juggles (based in rapid hits). Air recovery can work against a Satyr (ringing itself out), but an air parry wouldn't be as damning (but should trigger later into a juggle).

And PS shuts them down as always.

I feel like there is sufficient room for the mixing-and-matching to give us two unique Satyrs.

We haven’t had a heavy Satyr yet (a la Hades Minotaurs). A tanky, hard hitting enemy that punishes mashing might prove too much for casuals.

It might be funny if a Satyr Champion could toss their staff at us for an attempt at impale to send us far away (maybe into a wall splat with a mini-game where we need to mash out like when Wolverine gets stuck on spikes...or off a cliff for instant death like what happens in CotG10 when a Satyr dumps you over the side like a punk

Parry it would allow us to do the same to them (taking them out of the fight for a while).

Anyway, CoO gave us Satyrs (Faun) and Satyr Grenadiers (another Faun) with 'Dark' versions (now a 'dizzy' state grab condition to make them less laughable).

Air OS didn’t care.

Fauns are somewhat boring as they are and could use more elements from a neat foe type like the Beast Lord (charge with LONG active period and 0 damage guard break before a follow-up you have time enough to defend against even after the guard break, summon of a mount and mounting).

Giving them multiple summons to choose from (including breeders) could make for some nutty fights, along with them creating hazards *that could be turned against them*.

NOTE2: Satyrs and Fauns both have association with music instruments, drinking, amorous behavior, etc., but I'm mostly interested in the idea of buffs, debuffs, etc. which could be possible through use of instruments

Kratos strikes me as a harp guy.

*one curses evasion, another takes away jumps, another takes away blocks; one saps HP, one saps MP and another takes RP;

Would MP and RP be affected by power modifiers?

one focuses on the melee, another focuses on summoning and another focuses on buffs/debuffs;

Altering Power % and enemy power on us? One could get cursed on purpose for super collisions.

maybe a buff/self-buff state where they become worthy foes on their own (AI stops focusing on making mobs or helping them

Balrog priests have to be a thing. Give them the Whip, wings for mobility, sword, axe, breath like attack, a super geyser centered on them, etc.

It would be less annoying if a case where they had such a state also had an environmental aid like a fire sacrifice to instant kill them with (or cliffs).

Lighting themselves on the environment could make it more acceptable (or using it as armor).

Talos are immune to petrification as is (Juggs are not and shouldn't have such a perk).

No, helps them remain distinct (and dealing with them en masse).

Do we need Juggs if we have Talos? As before, I like the idea of having large HP targets like Fates Juggs that are vulnerable to petrification (giving credence to its existence), but also enjoy the petrification immune alternative (that should have less HP, but still plenty).

They could make Talos the weak variant, and Fates Jugg the advanced (never liked the regenerating Talos).

Could a Talos have these three different attack means (using different elements during each of its three sections of life between armor breaks)? Seems fine by me.

Could make it earth elemental (going along with stone).

I feel like they aren't up to the challenge for all this business. Too much thought (again).

Even for something as simple as a universal stun (like AoU)?

>Argus

That was it.

But they also make things more interesting as with other gimmick fights (timed fight before room kills you, for instance).

True. Really need to keep them all on camera (so we can prioritize larger threats *biggest problem with PAIN Tranny was being unable to target offscreen Priests with dog kicks).

Clones were a bit too numerous, spawn pools for a given foe changing places was annoying and their super armor could mess with you (aside from targeting rearing its head now and again).

Weird momentum too.

This happens again with Tranny. Two easy fights that allow barrier abuse (in two ways) followed by a third where no such trick is available.

Just let us skip the crap and get to the meat W3. ToA had this problem, but in reverse (get past W1 and then not **** up the next two).

It also enabled our protectee to take damage from collisions and NOT be healed (much less in exchange for something like 'rage').

He didn’t care about living or dying, just stopping Kratos. What an ass.

Like the Artemis Clones doing Hades Gift for super armor and major damage, Priests can use Energy Geyser in the same way. It really fucks things up for us and our solutions are few to stop it (petrification, grabs, outright killing them, etc.).

Kratos in general lacks crowd control when he can’t retreat and t0/3, use magic or Argo’s Revenge.

>AotF in Tranny

NUR+ would cease to be an issue. Also, would a time slowing item reduce our rage use like the Amulet?

I still feel hesitant to totally rule them out.

True. They just need to stop being gauntlets at the same time with the option to screw us over at any point.

CoO missed its chance to make Elysium more interesting (Calliope) aside from a proper gauntlet at the end (just like GoW1 lacked at the final bit of Hades).

Ending on the spectres and cats wasn’t one of their better ideas.

Being able to evade attacks helps, but it would be better if she could be hit too (just that she is more durable than our usual protectees maybe). Having the 'grab' transfer life would, again, be good (in exchange for MP and/or rage). Might also have been nice if she could be picked up and brought to the higher wall for a place to hang-out outside reach of some foes with some sort of system in place to encourage us to get her down eventually

KH2 has an escort portion that gave us a unique AoE attack for when close to the escort. Something around 10 damage, ignoring Power and having long stun or knockback.

Breeders with their birthing is lovely (and Seeds that grow-up are nice too). Being able to ride them like Mongrels would make for another good facet.

Machine gun puppies?

HCB didn't use fireballs at all outside its amazing stomp, had good pressure (charge) and it birthed unique HCWs (another means to make up for lacking fireballs). It had multiple stages (but forced them for sure) and entirely too much HP.

Rather poor excuse for a boss in the closing game of the series.

Soul Cerberus Mongrel had the burrow attack (annoying blockable right into unblockable *would be better with a larger pause between them or a second blockabe before the unblockable*).

Bastard could take a beating and was rarely open. Taz put it in its place.

>choking on fireballs

Would I frames be appropriate on this, or make the fight too simple by creating safe periods to deal damage?

Open to launch/bounce, but with wake-up super armor (GoW1 style long recovery time), less height from either, falls faster out of juggles and no infinite (but significantly higher damage than in GoW1 to compensate).

Bouncing them around in GoW1 was rather entertaining.

Low MG petrification resistance (250), good statue HP (15) and slow break-out time (4 seconds). Compared to GoWII Cerberus, this is 150 less resist, same statue HP and faster break-out time. With GoWII's EH, launch to lvl2 GF would be enough for him to be instant killed.

“Beatiful.”-Rodin

It's HP of something monstrous like 900 would be stripped to 600 (equal to Cerberus Bastard) which is still a lot (but with classic collisions to consider on VH, each dog kick would be 50 for a full collision and still 25 if they were made into half collisions (20 damage dealt statically in GoWIII).

Did OH kill the pups in one use or did it bounce them?

Full would mean 5 and half would mean 10 for the first 250 damage before a dizzy state for a 50 damage grab. Supposing you get the grab, you need to deal 150 more damage (3 full or 6 half collisions). If you land the next grab, you need only 50 damage (1 full collision or 2 half collisions) before you can use the last head removal opening to finish it off.

Sounds reasonable.

Each head removal making it more fond of charging all the sooner.

With bad targeting, it could lead to a quick death when charging alongside the pups.

For VH with default Kratos, it would be 50 damage to just OS one HCW at HCB (instantly destroying the statue to make a joke of the fight).

While wasting your MP if you fail. Good risk/reward balance for a NUR.

More likely you would just have to chip away at him and maybe get the odd HCW to blow up near it for more chip.

Not too bad with tools like the bow.

Discussing these things takes loads of thought, time, etc. Reading at length, replying at length, etc.

Hence my godawful late response.

I feel my petrification critique of GoS made for good reading, but I guess you've seen that before in the past

Oh?

didn't ever think to have it do the Icarus Wing specials, but applying a tiny bit of petrification per hit and maybe passively petrifying those nearby if gliding around them *like DaS2II's Butterfly Set*

Stheno’s wings, the run.

GoW doesn't really do things that way though

Maybe they could have us fight her multiple times (taking different things from her on defeat).

and allow Stare to be active while casting Flash or Blast.

Was that in GoW1?

Not super sure how to go about this one. Would it be fine to treat him like a normal boss (deplete HP), but the QTE just has us go after his weakpoint? If he's just immortal along the rest of the body, we could work it like that.

That’s what I was thinking.

Would we be using a Brad Pitt look-alike for the killing? Would he do fancy movements like in Troy? I'm pretty sure the GoW devs would be all over it.

A match made in heaven. They get to love their pulp culture while we beat up pretty boys.

Would his cousin and gay lover (>implications) come out at some point in the fight to help, we kill him to end that phase and it sends Achilles into a rage (perhaps making him less capable as a warrior instead of evading/blocking our attacks and punishing us like a pro)?

Why not? The Fates were fun, let Patty lend light support *read: Kratos immediately ignoring Achilles to beat his ass*.

Would he start off in his chariot (for giggles, dragging the dead Hector behind *us being able to maybe use the body in someway if only to destroy it for HP, MP and RP orbs not unlike the corpses at the Clotho fight*) and we need to damage it/his horse?

Sure, we could use another Wind Blast exploit in a boss fight. Let him maneuver the chariot like a car (stupid tight turns, sliding, etc).

Apollo (or Helios since they prefer him) had his temple desecrated in Troy, so they can use that jazz with something blinding him at some point or whatever (or just give us the damn bow again).

Wasn’t the river pissy at him? Luring him in to strike the chariot could be neat. Maybe put the fight on a HUGE field (like the Desert of Lost Souls) so we could flee from him (though not really practical).

Obviously I'm trying to make more to the fight than a straight technical battle as that is how GoW tends to do things. Sure I want technical phases to the fight, but pure technical isn't really what GoW is known for (or excels at). There tends to be a gimmick, different phases with a cutscene, multiple grab states, etc.

It manages to execute these gimmick phases better than even Bayonetta did.

Skorpius, prick that he was, just gave us a cocktease with Boreas' Icestorm

Even in death, he has the last laugh.

I suddenly had the thought of 'ice clones' as decoys that can explode for freezing things that fall for it and make contact or Liquid Fire allowing Thera's Bane and even Durga Bomb type charge attacks, fire pools, flamethrowing (liquid type), etc.

Fuse them into one weapon like Undine?

Not sure where and why we would encounter him. He should have been guarding Prometheus.

Tracking us down for killing his ward?

Perhaps it factors into the fight with Cratos to give it more layers (the bird gets away). I suppose there could have been another 'campsite' for where Prometheus was being held prior to being moved to Etna.

Were there any other prisoners like Prometheus he could have been guarding (Cratos’s death having Zeus move him).

Probably better to stick to the original plan I had for it. Excuse for a sex mini-game (rescue Hesperides *optional to save them for reward of upgrades to HP, MP and RP respectively*) when all are gathered (optional for loads of EXP at around 5-10K).

Come now, the series has moved beyond its juvenile roots.

Plenty of Hydra-esque moments with a head that bursts into a hall (Hall Hydra) and through the floor (Deck Hydra and Twin Hydra). Some blocking the way up (Twin Hydra headbutting the mast), others speaking in different tongues as part of level ambiance, etc.

Smaug comes to mind.

All this to kill the boss over some golden apples (of Immortality). Ambrosia is good stuff, son.

It must be if Athena likes it.

I had suggested this for GoWII pre-release so Kratos would have a way to get his immortality back while assuming he needed it to harm gods, I think.

He should have. Hera dying of a snapped neck and Hephastus being impaled was dumb.

He also has the multiple lever pull exploit (easiest and most effective for skipping his armor stripping Stage, but can be done in a super exploitative way to skip most to S4 pretty quickly *then take just enough life off before gaming the system again*; satvara showed this well).

Don’t think I ever saw this.

What do you specifically refer to with this?

GoWII Zeus. BoO for most the fight with Blades only in Stage 2.

Hell, a spell with cheap casting costs could be as such only so long as you have EXP to blow instead and the input for trying to use EXP up too would be a held input while the spell should have multiple casting types for single target attacking, weapon buff, a damaging AoE maybe as a status effect and an HP buff or heal

That’d be dandy, easily the best multiple cast type we’ve had outside petrification.

No need for Ram or Rise, I'd say.

Don’t think I used them outside GoWIII’s opening.

I'd like upgrades to give us an air parry. Seems like the sort of goodness you only get with plenty of investment, so at least lvl4.

Allowing us to stop everything but grabs?

I'd also like to propose it deal better damage with the ender (Might). Having each of its possible hits (depending on how long it keeps contact with something) land for Valor damage would be nice.

Certainly. Did it have knockback?

>Stheno's Claws

Would like a move similar to Sam’s Assualt Rush (lunging attack that knocks back and launches at the same time).

I know I spoke about Artemis (Ultra Greatbow) in the past. It was, as you would expect, mostly focused on trampling/piercing shots, knockback, high damage per hit (low fire rate), etc.

Would be one Hell of a relic.

Not sure I can imagine the classical bow of Eros being all that capable with high damage, heavy knockback, piercing shots (imitating BoO's DR).

Oh, I don’t care whose bow it is, long as it’s bitchin. Maybe have the primordial Cyclops forge us the Bow of Bia or something (like the Nemesis Whip).

Couldn't really give it poison in this case unless getting a bit farfetched with the explanation (heartbreak/ache or something silly).

A woman’s scorn?

Direct damage for attacks building this meter would probably have to be pretty pathetic.

It’d be more than worth it on VH.

They over-state the value of range in GoW to the point that they are afraid to give things equal or more range than the Blades unless it is a spell/item with 'low' damage per hti.

AoS is the only exception.

NOTE: A 'decoy shot' could be a special (perhaps with upgrades) to lure at least some enemies to a marked spot (as if they are 'longing' for it). Place near a trap, over a cliff, etc.

Have it only travel a fixed distance before hovering in the air. This could make a lot of fights silly if they ignored us while going for it.

If the normal attacks don't track, maybe have a special for tagging foes like the Bullseye of R:FoM (can become fairly advanced if allowing the Bullseye Trap/Bomb exploits of that game here too).

…why didn’t Lucifer have this? Giving our projectiles a bit of bonus damage in traps could easily justify using them.

Having 'affinity' shots cause enemies to be passive without us is fine, though maybe each attack we land on them drains some of their timer as a counter-balance to free wins.

Renewed by the affinity shots, though.

I can't justify petrification with this weapon (the best logical leap I can come up with is being so grossed out with us that we petrify them with our appearance).

Isn’t that how the gorgons worked?

AoS had the heavy overhead special (bounce) and light overhead (multi-hit). Both are welcome. GoS had extra damage for the former on large targets. I'd like this to be the case for both.

Would like to slip in Richter’s SotN 1000 blades somewhere (the light overhead made horizontal).

Bow strikes would need to be modeled on what Bayonetta does, but with less grace (and 'personality'), I'm sure. Freezing for an opening to land a stronger hit is one way (the other being to just hold things still for free hits), but I can't justify freezing.

What about a magical net arrow instead?

You took marking in a different direction than I was thinking. 'Turrets' (flying cherubs seems more likely though inappropriate for Greek Myth *as with the SoD itself*) would be cute, but likely end up like Flicks/Legions in GoWII (less than a point of damage per hit and few hits each).

Was thinking of something like Soul dump potency.

Upon re-reading up on him, the best way I can see (still a bit of a stretch) to achieve DoT like a poison is with 'fire', but not in a literal sense (fires of love consume the spirit of the unrequited). It is said some version saw him with a flaming torch, so why not mix the two to some extent?

DoT inflicting bow strikes are fine by me.

Again, I can't really justify actual poison here, but a DoT is a DoT, amirite?

Uh huh.

Marking the target for an eventual (timed) overhead with a small AoE, but good damage would be neat. I can't think of a reason that would make Zeus intervene for us.

Pity?

The ranged options for it would be more about hit properties, you say?

Multi-hit beam similar to DR with knockback on the last hit. An Acid Rain attack that always falls in the same pattern, but the rising sphere could hit enemies on the way up (with launch *allowing you to stunlock them like PS without needing a wall once launched*). Throw out a small wall that hits enemies approaching us (moving them backwards as if hit by Blades/Whips normals, but they can walk through it with super armor) and stopping projectiles. An Augment/Hysteric like special that can mashed for more shots fired *keeping you in place while channelling it and not having super precise control which enemies they hit*). Orbitals that can be generated in the same way *continuously if point blank with an enemy* and fired off like Leaf Shield (only moving in a straight line). Perhaps even a projectile that acts like grapple (bringing an enemy to use forcefully and scoring collisions along the way).

The s1 with a charged input and the extra hits would be 4.5/4.5/4.5/4.5/4.5/4.5 (27) at 100% Power (20.25 on VH *75%*).

Not too shabby if it’s quick.

That's probably the way it would have to be done, because "casuals".

Could at least give it just frames for a bit of extra damage.

Can't ask for crazy control scheme changes like having square as Left Punch, triangle as Right Punch, 'X' (cross as some say) be Left Kick and circle as Right Kick *Tekken talk*, but then need a jump input as annoying as x+o (or X+O for a charged jump).

Haven’t had a leg sweep in GoW. Put foes on their backs immediately, opening them up to launch/knockback.

But I'm joking around at this point (I'd love for more wrestling moves and greater complexities with inputs on some alternative to the easy mode Blades, but it won't happen).

A weapon specific universal grab would be nice.

If something could give us enemy step, I'd have it be this weapon (also, add a multi-frame attack to rapid velocity falls like when we fall from great height or cheat and use an air block to accelerate *thanks Cerezita*).

Rocket jumps too.

Not sure who would have such a weapon, but they made up SoD and were going to use Excalibur in GoWII (aside from non-Greek stuff elsewhere in the series). Merlin's staff?

Hecate? With the SoD, Staff of the Magi?

So, for normals, would it be having things like Dragon's Dogma's staffs (charging for variable periods of time for variable strength casts

Square could be something like Dark Orb, Triangle a geyser. Charged square might make an orb that explodes with AoE knockback.

>UTs charge types

Try as I might, I can’t find a flaw in this design.

Maybe different held inputs for different charged shots (Summon Swords circling us, SS above us, SS on foes, etc. come to mind)? Or how about Dark Souls style 'soul' arts (Soul Arrow, Soul Spear, Homing Soul Mass, Soul Shower, Soul Geyser, Soul Greatsword, etc. as attacks).

Was thinking about Lightning Return’s retarded magic attacks. Mutliple lightning strikes, tornadoes, mixing among the elements, etc.

Maybe 'Unleash magic' as a special to improve damage of all these silly ranged abilities.

Let the initial cast damage things as well.

Would there be a means for it to augment our usual gliding with wings and make it into Nevan-like 'flight' (and attacks)?

Make the flight mode attacks really OP (taking away our normal moveset to somewhat compensate). Give us a short range Vortex that fires off a projectile that continues to move in the direction Kratos was travelling. Weak melee hits that fire off shitloads of projectiles. Set traps that stay in place briefly before transforming into Infernal Weaves/SotN Shield Rod summons. All requiring upgrades beyond basic gliding.

Would be particularly amusing if 'Unleash Magic' has an 'Unleash Might' variation making our normals do WWs,

>WW Demi

Yeeessssss.

Demi type attacks are something I know we've discussed before, but I no longer recall the talk.

It’s in my PAIN+ thread.

CoO be damned. GoW:A wouldn't run afoul of this with the Furies if they didn't treat them like gods (they were daemons which are above mortals and below gods).

Kratos > Furies > Honky Tonk > Zeus > Ares > Kratos?

Holy Hell. I forgot about the issue with making new topics here. Anyway, new "God of War" (in name only). Ain't it grand? Even calling what they're doing 'steps backward' would be generous given a full genre change. Absurd.