Removing God from the U.S. currency

Michelle Kahle has an interesting article about how Americans can cross out God on the dollar bill to "de-God" it. Apparently, it's legal too, although I would imagine if this practice gets a large amount of followers and if the Republicans come into control which is likely due to President Obama's poor handling of the economy that won't be the case. The moral question though is, "Is it acceptable?" Personallly, I see it as overtly anti-God. I can understand how as atheists, we can call into question the practice of legislating God, but the practice Kahle describes is akin to rewriting the Pledge of Allegiance to say, "one nation under no god". It's explicitly irreligious which should mean that it shoudn't be legal. I'm tempted to try it, but I think it's wrong.

What are your thoughts on this practice?

I see nothing wrong with secularizing our currency, it should be secular in the first place - although I don't mind the phrase all that much.

As for rewriting the Pledge of Allegiance - the line "one nation under god" was not originally in the Pledge. It was added; i.e. rewrote by right-wing religious folks during the 1950's to show those Godless commie bastards how much we luv God.  

If we remove god from our currency, then we would just be paving the way for the commies to take over.Frattracide

And then our bodily fluids won't stand a chance in hell. 

Yeah I don't really like the idea of defacing currency.

Here in New Zealand our ten dollar note has a picture of Kate Sheppherd, an early Women's rights leader, and there might be people who don't like her being on our currency. But frankly my line of thought is bugger what a small minority says, this note represents the people of this country well so it can stay. If I were an American Christian I'd probably have that attitude towards atheists who wanted to remove God from the one dollar bill.

Normally I would support the idea of getting under the skin of fundies, but scribbling on bills is a kin to removing all of the water in an ocean with a tea spoon. It's a waste of time.

If someone actually cares so much about it that they cross out "God" on every single bill that they come across, then I think that person needs help. :PGabuEx

Well, through that logic, it takes far more effort and attention for one to go to church and such....so...:P

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]If someone actually cares so much about it that they cross out "God" on every single bill that they come across, then I think that person needs help. :PMetalGear_Ninty

Well, through that logic, it takes far more effort and attention for one to go to church and such....so...:P

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]If someone actually cares so much about it that they cross out "God" on every single bill that they come across, then I think that person needs help. :PGambler_3

Well, through that logic, it takes far more effort and attention for one to go to church and such....so...:P

What about fighting for secularisation, an attempt to resist the imposition of religiosity on one's everyday life, and persuade people of the wrongness of this. That's certainly not nothing.MetalGear_Ninty

[QUOTE="Gambler_3"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]If someone actually cares so much about it that they cross out "God" on every single bill that they come across, then I think that person needs help. :PMetalGear_Ninty

Well, through that logic, it takes far more effort and attention for one to go to church and such....so...:P

I just find it rather stupid to do it on all the bills you get. There's nothing wrong with it but it's just so pointless in my opinion. I dont see how it affects anyone what a few tiny words mean on a dollar bill. :)

Take the issue to the government and urge them to issue new bills without those words? Now that'll be something I'll support. I just find it rather stupid to do it on all the bills you get. There's nothing wrong with it but it's just so pointless in my opinion. I dont see how it affects anyone what a few tiny words mean on a dollar bill. :)Gambler_3

We agree on something??? :shock: I think this might be a sign of the apocalypse coming soon... :lol:ChiliDragon

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"] What about fighting for secularisation, an attempt to resist the imposition of religiosity on one's everyday life, and persuade people of the wrongness of this. That's certainly not nothing.ChiliDragon

Well, I guess it's more to do with the principle than anything else; I guess that the people doing this aren't wanting to deface every item of currency in the US, but rather to make a stand for something they believe in.

Was Rosa Parks doing anything physically substantial when she refused to give up her seat on the bus? But does that make her plight any less worth recognising?

Also, what is to say that the proponents for this course of action aren't fighting for the prayer in school issue as well?

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Gambler_3"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]If someone actually cares so much about it that they cross out "God" on every single bill that they come across, then I think that person needs help. :PGambler_3

Well, through that logic, it takes far more effort and attention for one to go to church and such....so...:P

I just find it rather stupid to do it on all the bills you get. There's nothing wrong with it but it's just so pointless in my opinion. I dont see how it affects anyone what a few tiny words mean on a dollar bill. :)

Well, I guess it's more to do with the principle than anything else; I guess that the people doing this aren't wanting to deface every item of currency in the US, but rather to make a stand for something they believe in.

Was Rosa Parks doing anything physically substantial when she refused to give up her seat on the bus? But does that make her plight any less worth recognising?

Also, what is to say that the proponents for this course of action aren't fighting for the prayer in school issue as well?

MetalGear_Ninty

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Well, I guess it's more to do with the principle than anything else; I guess that the people doing this aren't wanting to deface every item of currency in the US, but rather to make a stand for something they believe in.

Was Rosa Parks doing anything physically substantial when she refused to give up her seat on the bus? But does that make her plight any less worth recognising?

Also, what is to say that the proponents for this course of action aren't fighting for the prayer in school issue as well?

ChiliDragon

No, take the analogy for what it is, and when you take it too far that's when you have problems.

An analogy is an analogy is an analogy. Nothing more, nothing less.

If I so wanted, I could make analogies between Hitler and Jesus if I so wanted, that's not to say that I think Jesus and Hitler are alike in personality or ideology.

I guess I'm disagreeing whether it's a good analogy to start with, since Rosa Parks was protesting something very different than what a person who crosses out the phrase "in god we trust" on the dollar bill does. Dollar bills are being used as payment in a monetary transaction, not as a method to strip atheists of some of their basic human rights. A person giving another person a few dollar bills doesn't do it with the intent of promoting the Christian faith, they do it because social convention dictates that you pay for your cup of coffee before you take it with you to drink on the way to work.

Before anyone says anything, I can of course see the point that since the government should not support or endorse any one religion over any other they should not put religious stuff of government printed materials, like stamps or dollar bills, but that little statement doesn't actually which god it is we're trusting in... for all the detail that phrase gives out it could just as well be Allah or Krishna. :D Is the mere mention of a deity the same as pushing religion down someone's throat? When does it become just a figure of speech, like the exclamation "oh dear god!" when someone is startled/shocked/disgusted isn't actually a prayer but just an expression of emotion? Besides, the triangle above the pyramid is one of the oldest symbols of the judeo-christian God. Why is no one objecting as strenuously against that one, since that triangle actually does point towards a specific god and not just mentions a deity in general?ChiliDragon

Yeah, I wouldn't say the two scenarios are exactly the same, just that the principle of standing up for something you believe in, despite not actually doing anything immensely tangible, does not mean that those actions are insignificant, and I think in that regards, the analogy holds.

Also, yeah, I'm not immensely angry about the words on the currency, I can just why the people who are doing this, are doing what they are doing.

I have absolutely no idea why people haven't taken issue with that, personally I thought it was a masonic symbol, but I gues I must be wrong.

Well, I guess it's more to do with the principle than anything else; I guess that the people doing this aren't wanting to deface every item of currency in the US, but rather to make a stand for something they believe in.

Was Rosa Parks doing anything physically substantial when she refused to give up her seat on the bus? But does that make her plight any less worth recognising?

Also, what is to say that the proponents for this course of action aren't fighting for the prayer in school issue as well?

MetalGear_Ninty

The biggest difference I can see is that Rosa Parks did something that was very visible and which required the enforcement of a law that she was fighting against, and that enforcement became a rallying event for all of its opponents.  This, though?  This is just defacing currency; it doesn't inconvenience anyone and most people will probably not even notice.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Well, I guess it's more to do with the principle than anything else; I guess that the people doing this aren't wanting to deface every item of currency in the US, but rather to make a stand for something they believe in.

Was Rosa Parks doing anything physically substantial when she refused to give up her seat on the bus? But does that make her plight any less worth recognising?

Also, what is to say that the proponents for this course of action aren't fighting for the prayer in school issue as well?

GabuEx

The biggest difference I can see is that Rosa Parks did something that was very visible and which required the enforcement of a law that she was fighting against, and that enforcement became a rallying event for all of its opponents.  This, though?  This is just defacing currency; it doesn't inconvenience anyone and most people will probably not even notice.

Hmm, you have a point. If no one notices the de-secularization campaign then it's a wasted effort.

Therefore, I propose a burning of all currency featuring the words "In God we Trust". Someone would have to notice that. 

[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Well, I guess it's more to do with the principle than anything else; I guess that the people doing this aren't wanting to deface every item of currency in the US, but rather to make a stand for something they believe in.

Was Rosa Parks doing anything physically substantial when she refused to give up her seat on the bus? But does that make her plight any less worth recognising?

Also, what is to say that the proponents for this course of action aren't fighting for the prayer in school issue as well?

-Sun_Tzu-

The biggest difference I can see is that Rosa Parks did something that was very visible and which required the enforcement of a law that she was fighting against, and that enforcement became a rallying event for all of its opponents.  This, though?  This is just defacing currency; it doesn't inconvenience anyone and most people will probably not even notice.

Hmm, you have a point. If no one notices the de-secularization campaign then it's a wasted effort.

Therefore, I propose a burning of all currency featuring the words "In God we Trust". Someone would have to notice that. 

I hate to be the pragmatist here but you know you can exchange that currency for stuff. Really neat stuff.  

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

Hmm, you have a point. If no one notices the de-secularization campaign then it's a wasted effort.

Therefore, I propose a burning of all currency featuring the words "In God we Trust". Someone would have to notice that. 

Frattracide

I hate to be the pragmatist here but you know you can exchange that currency for stuff. Really neat stuff.  

[QUOTE="Frattracide"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

Hmm, you have a point. If no one notices the de-secularization campaign then it's a wasted effort.

Therefore, I propose a burning of all currency featuring the words "In God we Trust". Someone would have to notice that. 

ChiliDragon

I hate to be the pragmatist here but you know you can exchange that currency for stuff. Really neat stuff.  

"Oh, don't worry; I'm only burning my half of the money."

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Well, I guess it's more to do with the principle than anything else; I guess that the people doing this aren't wanting to deface every item of currency in the US, but rather to make a stand for something they believe in.

Was Rosa Parks doing anything physically substantial when she refused to give up her seat on the bus? But does that make her plight any less worth recognising?

Also, what is to say that the proponents for this course of action aren't fighting for the prayer in school issue as well?

Frattracide

The biggest difference I can see is that Rosa Parks did something that was very visible and which required the enforcement of a law that she was fighting against, and that enforcement became a rallying event for all of its opponents.  This, though?  This is just defacing currency; it doesn't inconvenience anyone and most people will probably not even notice.

Hmm, you have a point. If no one notices the de-secularization campaign then it's a wasted effort.

Therefore, I propose a burning of all currency featuring the words "In God we Trust". Someone would have to notice that. 

I hate to be the pragmatist here but you know you can exchange that currency for stuff. Really neat stuff.  

Exactly. And once people realize that no one is able to buy that neat stuff, the people who make and sell that neat stuff will start complaining. And then we'll have momentum, and it's smooth sailin' from there. 

You act as if I hadn't planned this out perfectly on my napkin from lunch. I'm no amateur.  

in godfather we trust.

Who are the people who think that it's "wrong" and should be "illegal"?:lol:

I mean I agree it's kinda useless but it's not "wrong".:|

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Well, I guess it's more to do with the principle than anything else; I guess that the people doing this aren't wanting to deface every item of currency in the US, but rather to make a stand for something they believe in.

Was Rosa Parks doing anything physically substantial when she refused to give up her seat on the bus? But does that make her plight any less worth recognising?

Also, what is to say that the proponents for this course of action aren't fighting for the prayer in school issue as well?

GabuEx

The biggest difference I can see is that Rosa Parks did something that was very visible and which required the enforcement of a law that she was fighting against, and that enforcement became a rallying event for all of its opponents. This, though? This is just defacing currency; it doesn't inconvenience anyone and most people will probably not even notice.

As for inconveniencing people, the only person that Parks immediately inconvenienced was the person who couldn't get a seat on the bus.

Visible? Rosa Park's action was only immediately visible to those people sitting on the bus, whereas this course of action could end up being noticed by thousands.MetalGear_Ninty

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]Visible? Rosa Park's action was only immediately visible to those people sitting on the bus, whereas this course of action could end up being noticed by thousands.ChiliDragon

Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to leave her seat in "the colored section" of the bus when the bus driver told her to make way for her betters and go stand in the back, so the white passengers could sit. She refused, there was a scene, the bus driver called the police. If I remember right the bus refused to move until the police had taken her away, so I'm pretty sure more than one person was inconvenienced. Not to mention that The Montgomery Bus Boycott that essentially was the nudge that sent Civil Rights Movement dominos falling, was a direct result of the arrest of Rosa Parks, so... once again we're back to me not thinking it's a very good analogy. :) ChiliDragon

Writing or drawing on a dollar bill will never have a significant impact on any other person than the one doing it. As protests goes, that is what makes it pointless. Not the action, reason, or sentiment behind it, but the fact that even if it's noticed it's not going to make anyone's life difficult, which means it's going to be very easy to ignore and forget. Signing a petition to have the annual nativity display removed from federal buildings, seems to me like a better use of a pen. If anyone ever writes a petition like that by the way, just keep it from sounding like hate-speech and I'll happily sign it for you. I hate those things--monuments of poor taste if I ever saw one!ChiliDragon

Argh, but I said 'immediately' visible, and 'immediately' inconvenienced, we have no way of telling the inconvenience that the defacing of currency may cause.MetalGear_Ninty

[QUOTE="Frattracide"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Well, I guess it's more to do with the principle than anything else; I guess that the people doing this aren't wanting to deface every item of currency in the US, but rather to make a stand for something they believe in.

Was Rosa Parks doing anything physically substantial when she refused to give up her seat on the bus? But does that make her plight any less worth recognising?

Also, what is to say that the proponents for this course of action aren't fighting for the prayer in school issue as well?

-Sun_Tzu-

The biggest difference I can see is that Rosa Parks did something that was very visible and which required the enforcement of a law that she was fighting against, and that enforcement became a rallying event for all of its opponents.  This, though?  This is just defacing currency; it doesn't inconvenience anyone and most people will probably not even notice.

Hmm, you have a point. If no one notices the de-secularization campaign then it's a wasted effort.

Therefore, I propose a burning of all currency featuring the words "In God we Trust". Someone would have to notice that. 

I hate to be the pragmatist here but you know you can exchange that currency for stuff. Really neat stuff.  

Exactly. And once people realize that no one is able to buy that neat stuff, the people who make and sell that neat stuff will start complaining. And then we'll have momentum, and it's smooth sailin' from there. 

You act as if I hadn't planned this out perfectly on my napkin from lunch. I'm no amateur.  

Phase 1. Burn Money 

Phase 2. ???

Phase 3. Profit 

Visible? Rosa Park's action was only immediately visible to those people sitting on the bus, whereas this course of action could end up being noticed by thousands.

As for inconveniencing people, the only person that Parks immediately inconvenienced was the person who couldn't get a seat on the bus.

MetalGear_Ninty

Not really; the entire bus had to be stalled while the police were called and Parks was arrested.  And it was a crystal clear example of the oppression that the black community suffered under, the image of a passenger on a bus being arrested for not ceding ground to a white person.  It became a defining moment for the entire black community in its representation of that which must come to an end.

Here, however, I cannot imagine anyone looking at a banknote with "God" crossed off and doing anything other than rolling his or her eyes, if indeed the person even pays any attention to it whatsoever.  And it's not as though an atheist looking at it is suddenly going to feel a deep urge within himself or herself to take some sort of action.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]Argh, but I said 'immediately' visible, and 'immediately' inconvenienced, we have no way of telling the inconvenience that the defacing of currency may cause.ChiliDragon

Well yeah, that's my point the effect is very much indirect rather than direct.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Visible? Rosa Park's action was only immediately visible to those people sitting on the bus, whereas this course of action could end up being noticed by thousands.

As for inconveniencing people, the only person that Parks immediately inconvenienced was the person who couldn't get a seat on the bus.

GabuEx

Not really; the entire bus had to be stalled while the police were called and Parks was arrested. And it was a crystal clear example of the oppression that the black community suffered under, the image of a passenger on a bus being arrested for not ceding ground to a white person. It became a defining moment for the entire black community in its representation of that which must come to an end.

Here, however, I cannot imagine anyone looking at a banknote with "God" crossed off and doing anything other than rolling his or her eyes, if indeed the person even pays any attention to it whatsoever. And it's not as though an atheist looking at it is suddenly going to feel a deep urge within himself or herself to take some sort of action.

You're saying that the crossing out of the word is incapable of conjuring motivation in people -- but if atheists were incapable of being motivated, then nobody would have crossed it out in the first place.

You may roll your eyes, but by no means does that mean that everyone else will.

Again no, the effect was much more indirect rather than direct.

You're saying that the crossing out of the word is incapable of conjuring motivation in people -- but if atheists were incapable of being motivated, then nobody would have crossed it out in the first place.

You may roll your eyes, but by no means does that mean that everyone else will.

MetalGear_Ninty

When Parks got arrested, it was a pivotal example to the black community of just what they were up against: it was something everyone could point to and passionately declare, "This must end."  And anyone who doubted the state of being for the black community had no further illusions after witnessing a black person being arrested simply for the crime of being unwilling to be treated as a second-class citizen behind a white person.

Here, though, what exactly are atheists going to do?  Look at the bill with "God" crossed off, and then suddenly become emboldened to march to Washington to demand that it be removed from the bills?  It's not as though no one is aware of the fact that bills say "In God we trust"; it's been that way for over fifty years now.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Again no, the effect was much more indirect rather than direct.

You're saying that the crossing out of the word is incapable of conjuring motivation in people -- but if atheists were incapable of being motivated, then nobody would have crossed it out in the first place.

You may roll your eyes, but by no means does that mean that everyone else will.

GabuEx

When Parks got arrested, it was a pivotal example to the black community of just what they were up against: it was something everyone could point to and passionately declare, "This must end." And anyone who doubted the state of being for the black community had no further illusions after witnessing a black person being arrested simply for the crime of being unwilling to be treated as a second-class citizen behind a white person.

Here, though, what exactly are atheists going to do? Look at the bill with "God" crossed off, and then suddenly become emboldened to march to Washington to demand that it be removed from the bills? It's not as though no one is aware of the fact that bills say "In God we trust"; it's been that way for over fifty years now.

Also, whilst nowhere near the scale of Blacks in the mid-20th century, there are several examples of atheists in the US being discriminated against.

Are you trying to say that black people didn't know they were being discriminated against until Rosa Parks sat on a bus?MetalGear_Ninty

I am trying to say precisely what I said: that Parks' arrest was both a summation of what the stakes were for anyone already aware and an example to convince anyone else (for example, sympathetic white people) just how bad it was.  Which... is true.

Also, whilst nowhere near the scale of Blacks in the mid-20th century, there are several examples of atheists in the US being discriminated against.MetalGear_Ninty

I really don't think that atheists are going to get many non-atheists to agree with them that the presence of "In God we trust" on the currency is a form of abominable discrimination that all people have a moral obligation to fight against (which is exactly what happened in the wake of events such as Rosa Parks' arrest).

Did you know that In God We Trust first appeared on a 2 cent coin in 1864? It first appeared on the dollar bill in 1957, on the 1935-G series bill.

As for wether or not it should be removed; I do not think it should be removed. Wether or not I believe in god does not have an impact on history. Our money has had the motto on it since those dates, so why should we take it off? History should not be changed, no matter how much you don't agree with it. It would be just as bad as when the USPS censored the Jackson Pollack stamp by removing the cigarette from his mouth.

Did you know that In God We Trust first appeared on a 2 cent coin in 1864? It first appeared on the dollar bill in 1957, on the 1935-G series bill.

Mtngranek

The U.S. had a 2 cent coin?? 

[QUOTE="Mtngranek"]

Did you know that In God We Trust first appeared on a 2 cent coin in 1864? It first appeared on the dollar bill in 1957, on the 1935-G series bill.

-Sun_Tzu-

The U.S. had a 2 cent coin?? 

Money is very important in American society; thus I support associating it with god.Elraptor

[QUOTE="Elraptor"]Money is very important in American society; thus I support associating it with god.ChiliDragon

Yes, but then we wouldn't have a point of irony capable of rivaling this picture of people praying for an economic turnaround.

[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"][QUOTE="Elraptor"]Money is very important in American society; thus I support associating it with god.GabuEx

Yes, but then we wouldn't have a point of irony capable of rivaling this picture of people praying for an economic turnaround.