Thanks -Official Guide to the Post-Jeff System Wars (Mod Approved)

Wait a minute....is this why Assassins Creed scored so high here and low everywhere else?

Damn now you can't trust a single review after this whole thing.

[QUOTE="ironcreed"]Why was he fired then?Jandurin

An Eidos programmer for the K&L ads mentioned that Jeff was skating on thin ice due to "Unprofessional conduct". However, that is pretty fishy when considering that Jeff had not only been working for GS for over a decade, this isn't the only "questionable" review he has given in the past 7 years, and that this guy was picked to replace Kasavin as a Senior Editior.

Saying that the K&L incident had no part in his dismal would be pure denial at this point, especially in the face of other GS editors who are alluding to the same thing.

The weight, however, truly is the rumor part at this point. And since Jeff might not even be legally inclined to speak, and we know that GS will never come clean with it, it all rests on how much info the gaming journalists out there can dig. And apparently, Penny Arcade has the full scoop, so that's something to wait on as well.

Either way, this is a pretty ugly situation for GS on all accounts (If he was fired for K&L, that spells obvious problems. If he was fired for other reasons, one would have to wonder why he had a leading position for so long without his "unprofessionalness" being noticed).

[QUOTE="ironcreed"][QUOTE="blue_hazy_basic"][QUOTE="ironcreed"]

Wow, I am a little late for the party concerning this news, lol. So let me get this straight, Jeff was fired because he gave Kane and Lynch a low score even though Eidos alledgedly had paid CNET to insure that Gamespot would give the game a good review score? If that is indeed the case, then Gamespot should be held accountable for fraudulent reviews and taking bribes.

I was never a fan of Jeff's reviews, but I respect the guy for trying to review the game in a way that he felt was honest, even though I personally think that Kane and Lynch deserves about a 7.5. But, whether one personally agrees with a review or not is irrelevant. However, what is relevant, is if the review was honest or not.

I guess all of those people who have laughed at all of the past comments about something being fishy about Gamespot's reviews are starting to wake up and smell the coffee a little more now, aye? It makes you question just how many other reviews have been nothing more than payoff scores.

In fact, how can one not now question just how many reviews have been paid off to be scored too high on games that do not deserve it? It also makes one question just how many times they have been paid to give otherwise great games bad reviews in order to make certain games on certain systems look weak. Not so much a consipracy theory anymore is it? Corruption is an unfortunate reality when it comes to money and the business world. Special treatment can nearly always be bought.

I love the forums here, and this is a great site for gaming news, but their already questionable reviews have been tainted beyond redemption in my opinion. How could anyone possibly trust their reviews now if this is all indeed true?

blue_hazy_basic

Why was he fired then?

DAH DAH....that is exactly why I specifically stated "if this is indeed true." I never said it was fact, lol.

Wait a minute....is this why Assassins Creed scored so high here and low everywhere else?

Damn now you can't trust a single review after this whole thing.

Bread_or_Decide

That is exactly where I am at. Even if you 'think' that you can trust a certain reviewer, how can you be so sure that they are not playing host to the same kind of bribery as well?

Can we just wait until the facts come out. Maybe he got fired for downloading porn, maybe he got fired because he was half assing reviews, maybe he goit fired because of the K&L review, maybe he reviewed the game without having played it, maybe he has a personal conflict with an Eidos rep and decided prior to playing the game that he was gonna lambast it. We know nothing other than the fact that he got fired and that there is some conjecture that the K&L review was involved.

Contrary to what some of you want to believe, this System Wars forum, and the people who post here, have absolutely no influence or power in the gaming world whatsoever.

It seem some people have developed a "l33t superiority complex" posting here and actually think what they do here matters here at Gamespot, much less the real world outside of Gamespot. Nothing can be further from the truth.

As far as Gamespot is concerned, System Wars is the garbage can of the Gamespot forums. We get moderated harder and harsher than any forum and only exist as a neccessary evil to protect the other forums here.

I say this to say that since SW is not to be taken seriously, we should continue to use GS reviews to determine if a game "flops" or not.

Yellow_Rose

Agreed 100%. Great post.

People must have an inflated ego if they think GameSpotcares what we do in SW. This forum exists solely because the the x360/PS3/Wii forums would be chaos without it.

Even with credibility in question, GameSpot's reviews should remain the definitive review in SW.

Can we just wait until the facts come out. Maybe he got fired for downloading porn, maybe he got fired because he was half assing reviews, maybe he goit fired because of the K&L review, maybe he reviewed the game without having played it, maybe he has a personal conflict with an Eidos rep and decided prior to playing the game that he was gonna lambast it. We know nothing other than the fact that he got fired and that there is some conjecture that the K&L review was involved.

actionquake

If indeed the K&L review is involved and Jeff got fired as a result of it. How hard is it to put the pieces together? The thing is the K&L review being the cause of Jeff's department is the rumour and not the fact as you state it.

Truthfully with the amount of money going on in the gaming industry a good or bad review from a site as big as Gamespot may mean the difference in millions of dollars.

A database site would be useless for system wars anyway. Any system of measurement where the score keeps changing is a no go. cakeorrdeath

Why not hand pick like 2 sites or 3 and 1 or 2 mags

[QUOTE="blue_hazy_basic"][QUOTE="ironcreed"][QUOTE="blue_hazy_basic"][QUOTE="ironcreed"]

Wow, I am a little late for the party concerning this news, lol. So let me get this straight, Jeff was fired because he gave Kane and Lynch a low score even though Eidos alledgedly had paid CNET to insure that Gamespot would give the game a good review score? If that is indeed the case, then Gamespot should be held accountable for fraudulent reviews and taking bribes.

I was never a fan of Jeff's reviews, but I respect the guy for trying to review the game in a way that he felt was honest, even though I personally think that Kane and Lynch deserves about a 7.5. But, whether one personally agrees with a review or not is irrelevant. However, what is relevant, is if the review was honest or not.

I guess all of those people who have laughed at all of the past comments about something being fishy about Gamespot's reviews are starting to wake up and smell the coffee a little more now, aye? It makes you question just how many other reviews have been nothing more than payoff scores.

In fact, how can one not now question just how many reviews have been paid off to be scored too high on games that do not deserve it? It also makes one question just how many times they have been paid to give otherwise great games bad reviews in order to make certain games on certain systems look weak. Not so much a consipracy theory anymore is it? Corruption is an unfortunate reality when it comes to money and the business world. Special treatment can nearly always be bought.

I love the forums here, and this is a great site for gaming news, but their already questionable reviews have been tainted beyond redemption in my opinion. How could anyone possibly trust their reviews now if this is all indeed true?

ironcreed

Why was he fired then?

DAH DAH....that is exactly why I specifically stated "if this is indeed true." I never said it was fact, lol.

Wait a minute....is this why Assassins Creed scored so high here and low everywhere else?

Damn now you can't trust a single review after this whole thing.

Bread_or_Decide

It seriously brings the integrity of this entire site into question. I'm no Sony fan but the protests from cows about the low ratings for PS3 games have some weight to them after this debacle

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]A database site would be useless for system wars anyway. Any system of measurement where the score keeps changing is a no go. kcpp2b

Why not hand pick like 2 sites or 3 and 1 or 2 mags

[QUOTE="Bread_or_Decide"]

Wait a minute....is this why Assassins Creed scored so high here and low everywhere else?

Damn now you can't trust a single review after this whole thing.

the_h_bomb

It seriously brings the integrity of this entire site into question. I'm no Sony fan but the protests from cows about the low ratings for PS3 games have some weight to them after this debacle

I think AC score is fine IMO. I really liked the game and I'm still playing it.

[QUOTE="cakeorrdeath"]A database site would be useless for system wars anyway. Any system of measurement where the score keeps changing is a no go. kcpp2b

Why not hand pick like 2 sites or 3 and 1 or 2 mags

Because every time one group doesn't like 1 of the scores they'll demand a change.

[QUOTE="ironcreed"][QUOTE="blue_hazy_basic"][QUOTE="ironcreed"]

blue_hazy_basic

LOL, I am aware that there is alot of speculation at this point. I was merely curious to know if you had any more info contrary to the rumors that would suggest why he was fired. That's why I asked.

If any of you guys want to leave in protest, you can come to this forum.

http://www.systemwars2.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2

Yes, you will probably recieve a little heckling right of the bat, but don't be discouraged. They always do that to new people. Just fight through the fire and you will be welcomed. It's a really nice place to just chill and soon it will be getting an upgrade with a lot of new cool features. You can look in this thread for more information on that:

http://www.systemwars2.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17924

[QUOTE="Bread_or_Decide"]

Wait a minute....is this why Assassins Creed scored so high here and low everywhere else?

Damn now you can't trust a single review after this whole thing.

the_h_bomb

It seriously brings the integrity of this entire site into question. I'm no Sony fan but the protests from cows about the low ratings for PS3 games have some weight to them after this debacle

Nothing has been proven, so there is no debacle as of yet. Pay closer attention next time.

Contrary to what some of you want to believe, this System Wars forum, and the people who post here, have absolutely no influence or power in the gaming world whatsoever.

It seem some people have developed a "l33t superiority complex" posting here and actually think what they do here matters here at Gamespot, much less the real world outside of Gamespot. Nothing can be further from the truth.

As far as Gamespot is concerned, System Wars is the garbage can of the Gamespot forums. We get moderated harder and harsher than any forum and only exist as a neccessary evil to protect the other forums here.

I say this to say that since SW is not to be taken seriously, we should continue to use GS reviews to determine if a game "flops" or not.

Yellow_Rose

Just think about it for a second and some people need to step outside the fanboy box. If everything that happened until now is true, then you have to ask yourself, "just how long has this been going on". Now some people say that they do not let reviews determine what game or system to buy but there are some people out there who's gaming purchase depends on a review. I do agree that some game scores got the shaft and some were deserved.

Nothing has been proven, so there is no debacle as of yet. Pay closer attention next time.

Frostbite24

Jeff was fired because of the tone of his kane and lynch. How can you possibly defend that decision? do you evenc are about integrity in videogame journalism?

[QUOTE="Frostbite24"]

Nothing has been proven, so there is no debacle as of yet. Pay closer attention next time.

the_h_bomb

Jeff was fired because of the tone of his kane and lynch. How can you possibly defend that decision? do you evenc are about integrity in videogame journalism?

How about we read the OP before we go spouting off about things that you have no idea about. Seriously, this thread was made to filter your kind of blindness out. Grow up and wait for the official story and do not respond to me until you've read the OP. K?

How about we read the OP before we go spouting off about things that you have no idea about. Seriously, this thread was made to filter your kind of blindness out. Grow up and wait for the official story and do not respond to me until you've read the OP. K?

Frostbite24

The likelihood is that we'll never hear "the official story" and if we do it'll be sanitised to the point where it gives us no information at all.

[QUOTE="Frostbite24"]

How about we read the OP before we go spouting off about things that you have no idea about. Seriously, this thread was made to filter your kind of blindness out. Grow up and wait for the official story and do not respond to me until you've read the OP. K?

the_h_bomb

The likelihood is that we'll never hear "the official story" and if we do it'll be sanitised to the point where it gives us no information at all.

So lets just make everything up, conspiracy this conspiracy that, how is that a good idea? If we start jumping to all sorts of conclusions then nothing will be gained from this. Let's all try to take Sub's advice, act like adults, even if we're not, and handle this with some maturity. I can understand if this has ruined GS for you and I can also understand why you would want to leave, so leave, you might be completely right, but I want to stick around and all the facts before I go all vigilante.

GameRankings has always been the way to go.AFBrat77

Unless you take the time to weigh the pros and cons.

I have received official confirmation that Jeff was fired, and unofficial (but fully legitimate) confirmation that it was at least in part related to Jeff pissing off advertisers. His Kane & Lynch video review (if you haven't noticed) has been removed from the site, and the Kane & Lynch review has been revised. So... now would be the time to panic, if you are going to do so.

Let's not descend into total chaos, we do need to find a way to address GS having lost all journalistic credibility. I'm still waiting on the "official" word from GS / Eidos / Jeff Gerstmann on the matter - though Jeff can confirm he was fired, he's unable to discuss the details at the moment. A few other admins have come forward (in private) to mention that something bad is going down, and one mentioned the "integrity of GS".

I'm sorry I can't be more specific, but, how should we handle this?

-

To be clear, it's believed by other GS staff that Jeff's attitutde towards advertisers influenced his firing. Whether or not we're 100% on that, or can ever be, it will hurt GS' credibility. In SW this will now *always* be an argument when a game scores well - "oh that review was bought".

And keep in mind, this IS NOT confirmation that reviews have, in any way, been bought with advertiser dollars. It will hurt GS' credibility because of how people *feel* about it though.

[QUOTE="actionquake"]

Can we just wait until the facts come out. Maybe he got fired for downloading porn, maybe he got fired because he was half assing reviews, maybe he goit fired because of the K&L review, maybe he reviewed the game without having played it, maybe he has a personal conflict with an Eidos rep and decided prior to playing the game that he was gonna lambast it. We know nothing other than the fact that he got fired and that there is some conjecture that the K&L review was involved.

_Pedro_

If indeed the K&L review is involved and Jeff got fired as a result of it. How hard is it to put the pieces together? The thing is the K&L review being the cause of Jeff's department is the rumour and not the fact as you state it.

Truthfully with the amount of money going on in the gaming industry a good or bad review from a site as big as Gamespot may mean the difference in millions of dollars.

I was saying that the firing was a fact. The K&L review being the reason is conjecture at the moment. And even if this rumor that the K&L review was the reason it still doesn't mean that the review system is compromised. Its possible that there was a clash of personalities between Jeff and someone at Eidos and that this was percieved to be a motivating factor behind the review.

What I'm saying is that the original rumor that Eidos and the poor K&L review may have been a factor in Jeff's dismisal has become

"Eidos made GS fire Jeff because he gave K&L a 6"

I have received official confirmation that Jeff was fired, and unofficial (but fully legitimate) confirmation that it was at least in part related to Jeff pissing off advertisers. His Kane & Lynch video review (if you haven't noticed) has been removed from the site, and the Kane & Lynch review has been revised. So... now would be the time to panic, if you are going to do so.

Let's not descend into total chaos, we do need to find a way to address GS having lost all journalistic credibility. I'm still waiting on the "official" word from GS / Eidos / Jeff Gerstmann on the matter - though Jeff can confirm he was fired, he's unable to discuss the details at the moment. A few other admins have come forward (in private) to mention that something bad is going down, and one mentioned the "integrity of GS".

I'm sorry I can't be more specific, but, how should we handle this?

subrosian

I have received official confirmation that Jeff was fired, and unofficial (but fully legitimate) confirmation that it was at least in part related to Jeff pissing off advertisers. His Kane & Lynch video review (if you haven't noticed) has been removed from the site, and the Kane & Lynch review has been revised. So... now would be the time to panic, if you are going to do so.

Let's not descend into total chaos, we do need to find a way to address GS having lost all journalistic credibility. I'm still waiting on the "official" word from GS / Eidos / Jeff Gerstmann on the matter - though Jeff can confirm he was fired, he's unable to discuss the details at the moment. A few other admins have come forward (in private) to mention that something bad is going down, and one mentioned the "integrity of GS".

I'm sorry I can't be more specific, but, how should we handle this?

subrosian

This is dire news indeed. The forces of Sauron err GS can't get away with this level of shadiness. The main thing we need to accomplish is uniting together if only for a few days to come to a reasonable solution. All in all though, this is rather exciting! I feel like I am a part of this controversy and have a responsibility to bring down the JUSTiCE! Thundercats, HOOOO!

I have received official confirmation that Jeff was fired, and unofficial (but fully legitimate) confirmation that it was at least in part related to Jeff pissing off advertisers. His Kane & Lynch video review (if you haven't noticed) has been removed from the site, and the Kane & Lynch review has been revised. So... now would be the time to panic, if you are going to do so.

Let's not descend into total chaos, we do need to find a way to address GS having lost all journalistic credibility. I'm still waiting on the "official" word from GS / Eidos / Jeff Gerstmann on the matter - though Jeff can confirm he was fired, he's unable to discuss the details at the moment. A few other admins have come forward (in private) to mention that something bad is going down, and one mentioned the "integrity of GS".

I'm sorry I can't be more specific, but, how should we handle this?

subrosian

Well it's not the review score itself that Eidos and CNET would be most concerned about, but the content ofhis review. In his video review, Jeff told potential buyers not to buy the game, and in his review suggested gamers pick it up when it was bargain-binned. This is something I agree with by the way - Kane & Lynch doesn't compare favorably to other full-priced FPS and TPS titles on the 360 / PC. That video review has already been pulled.

So yes his "tone" and "attitude" are the primary concerns... however it is still an unknown to what extent the K&L controversy played into his termination. However it doesn't necessarily matter, because credibilility is a perception. If people feel it in any way influenced CNET's decision (as an ad-revenue driven site) - if mods, admins, and staff members are leaving over what they perceive to be an integrity issue, then unfortunately anything relying heavily on GS-reviews (System Wars) is going to find itself in an odd place.

However, what we have not confirmed yet is that review scores have been bought. We know credibility is shaken, but Kane & Lynch still stands at a 6.0. I'm hoping in the next few days Penny-Arcade or Jeff Gerstmann himself can give us an insider look into whether or not that has happened at GS over the past twelve months.

I have received official confirmation that Jeff was fired, and unofficial (but fully legitimate) confirmation that it was at least in part related to Jeff pissing off advertisers. His Kane & Lynch video review (if you haven't noticed) has been removed from the site, and the Kane & Lynch review has been revised. So... now would be the time to panic, if you are going to do so.

Let's not descend into total chaos, we do need to find a way to address GS having lost all journalistic credibility. I'm still waiting on the "official" word from GS / Eidos / Jeff Gerstmann on the matter - though Jeff can confirm he was fired, he's unable to discuss the details at the moment. A few other admins have come forward (in private) to mention that something bad is going down, and one mentioned the "integrity of GS".subrosian

We have to use Gamerankings. Everyone sees it as the step forward now, so unless you can get all of SW to use a few other non-GS sites....

Remember to keep cool.

I just got a little more information and I think the right thing to do is still to wait. We *really need* to give the other side of this a chance to say their part. Remember, we do need the full story. For example, what if Jeff Gerstmann was terminated over Kane & Lynch, but it was because he cursed out an Eidos representative in the studio? Or... what if it was a combination of factors, including tone, professionalism, and concerns about his other reviews.

I admit, it doesn't look *good* but without all the facts innocent actions can seem like a giant conspiracy theory that isn't there. Even I'm personally inclined to jump on the anarchy bandwagon, but we shouldn't do that until we know who to be mad at - and I'm willing to hazard that no side is *entirely* innocent in any situation.

Jeff was a valued member of GS - but posters who have said he's only human and that GS is only human are correct.

http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/11/gamespot-inside.html

Well, some more backstory.

On a side note; Where is Adobe Artist?

Homeboy needs to create a "I survived Nov 30, 2007" sig. (you know you want one)

No matter what the other side's story is, SW can't just go back to normal. It may be jumping the gun, or it may be the last straw and the gateway to a big change here.

Also, one piece of information I'd like to share, for those of who are unaware of the corporate structure of GameSpot. Essentially CNET was Jeff's boss, and other staff members have not all themselves been made fully aware of the situation. Site admins, and mods, are not able to provide us with any answers at this time.

Please continue to respect the mods, admins, and other staff members. Keep in mind, in a time of controversy, they are just as panicked as we are - if anything wish them luck in dealing with the members who don't keep their cool. At the end of the day, every mod, admin, staff member, et cetera at GS is trying to keep their cool and evaluate this situation just as we are. So please, don't harass them on this issue - they are not CNET, and they are unable to discuss this issue until they have all the facts themelves, which may take a few days.

No matter what the other side's story is, SW can't just go back to normal. It may be jumping the gun, or it may be the last straw and the gateway to a big change here.

Tsug_Ze_Wind

Right, but let's make this entirely clear- System Wars is being hurt by an event we haven't confirmed and a perception that may only be partially valid.

What we're dealing with is a credibility issue - trust - that people have had shaken because of what Penny-Arcade has accused GameSpot of. Whether or not it's true, I agree, people will be more skeptical of GameSpot - but you have to admit, what ultimately happens will be *very* dependant on how CNET and GameSpot themselves handle it. Jeff Gerstmann was just fired last night - I'm sure he went home, got some sleep, and probably just woke up to eat some cereal - the staff just got to work to find an out of control site, Eidos being carpet-bombed, and half their mods going nuts.

With no official word.

Jeff Gerstmann has confirmed that he was fired - he has no confirmed why, calmer speculation points to his relationship with advertisers, but the "review score itself" being the issue (as opposed to something more legitimate) is not.

-

It definitely will impact System Wars in that we may feel the need to use a mixture of review scores going forward, simply because people will not have the same trust in GS for the next few months, it's somewhat like every system simultaneously getting a popular game with a bad score... it doesn't help how people perceive things.

-

One problem I am concerned about is that the Editor-In-Chief of GS is gone, I don't know how that's going to impact the review writing processes, as there is no denying Jeff Gerstmann was an important part of the GS team.

"The ads went up and the Eidos brouhaha was settled over two weeks ago. Jeff got fired yesterday. Furthermore, I'd heard a few people tell that he'd already been skating on thin ice for "unprofessional reviews and review practices." I don't know much about that, though, so I can't say one way or the other. My gut tells me that he got canned for larger reasons. Maybe the Eidos debacle was part of it -- I don't know. But I sincerely doubt that Eidos made Gamespot fire him. CNET doesn't kowtow to its advertisers, and I've more than once seen the higher-ups turn away big advertising dollars for the sake of the company's integrity.I think the whole thing is likely a combination of factors, the biggest being poor timing."

-from Wired.com

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

No matter what the other side's story is, SW can't just go back to normal. It may be jumping the gun, or it may be the last straw and the gateway to a big change here.

subrosian

Jeff Gerstmann was just fired last night - I'm sure he went home, got some sleep, and probably just woke up to eat some cereal - the staff just got to work to find an out of control site, Eidos being carpet-bombed, and half their mods going nuts.

Jeff was online here till about 4:30am or so last night reading the stuff about him OT I bet lol

We are still basing a lot of this off assumption. rimnet00

Right that's what we're dealing with though. Many people on System Wars are going to perceive a CNET conspiracy whether or not there is one. It's certainly relevant (to me at least) if this was really the case, but there's no denying that CNET's advertiser relations are going to be a sticky subject for many people. You need only look at the number of angry reactions to realize that this is something we're really going to have to work through calmly.

Well it's not the review score itself that Eidos and CNET would be most concerned about, but the content ofhis review. In his video review, Jeff told potential buyers not to buy the game, and in his review suggested gamers pick it up when it was bargain-binned. This is something I agree with by the way - Kane & Lynch doesn't compare favorably to other full-priced FPS and TPS titles on the 360 / PC. That video review has already been pulled.

So yes his "tone" and "attitude" are the primary concerns... however it is still an unknown to what extent the K&L controversy played into his termination. However it doesn't necessarily matter, because credibilility is a perception. If people feel it in any way influenced CNET's decision (as an ad-revenue driven site) - if mods, admins, and staff members are leaving over what they perceive to be an integrity issue, then unfortunately anything relying heavily on GS-reviews (System Wars) is going to find itself in an odd place.

However, what we have not confirmed yet is that review scores have been bought. We know credibility is shaken, but Kane & Lynch still stands at a 6.0. I'm hoping in the next few days Penny-Arcade or Jeff Gerstmann himself can give us an insider look into whether or not that has happened at GS over the past twelve months.

subrosian

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

Well it's not the review score itself that Eidos and CNET would be most concerned about, but the content ofhis review. In his video review, Jeff told potential buyers not to buy the game, and in his review suggested gamers pick it up when it was bargain-binned. This is something I agree with by the way - Kane & Lynch doesn't compare favorably to other full-priced FPS and TPS titles on the 360 / PC. That video review has already been pulled.

So yes his "tone" and "attitude" are the primary concerns... however it is still an unknown to what extent the K&L controversy played into his termination. However it doesn't necessarily matter, because credibilility is a perception. If people feel it in any way influenced CNET's decision (as an ad-revenue driven site) - if mods, admins, and staff members are leaving over what they perceive to be an integrity issue, then unfortunately anything relying heavily on GS-reviews (System Wars) is going to find itself in an odd place.

However, what we have not confirmed yet is that review scores have been bought. We know credibility is shaken, but Kane & Lynch still stands at a 6.0. I'm hoping in the next few days Penny-Arcade or Jeff Gerstmann himself can give us an insider look into whether or not that has happened at GS over the past twelve months.

blue_hazy_basic