SquareEnix reaches a new low. (And Deck Nine's management needs to resign)

Or, it was the ride, which Curse of the Black Pearl had many scenes influenced by the ride.

Wrong, Phantasmagoria sold over a million. Sierra games in general outsold LucasArts games.

Persona 2 did it, but wasn't the main driver of it, and the sequels dropped LGBT romances entirely. You could count Liara in Mass Effect, but LGBT romances only became a real thing in ME3, but Dragon Age had them throughout, but many felt playersexual. The Last of Us had LGBT characters but the main relationship was like a father-daughter bond, with Left Behind having an LGBT relationship, but not very deep. It was Life is Strange that had a real truly developing LGBT relationship, even if the player as Max did not choose to romance Chloe right away.

Yet the background connection is there, the reappearance of a mother is similar to not only Before The Storm, but Life is Strange 2. Nevermind calling a character "Rachel Price" is a dead ringer giveaway of influence.

@texasgoldrush:

Theme park rides are not narrative media. You're comparable apples to oranges. In terms of narrative media, Monkey Island influenced the POTC movies. There's a clear connection with the writers.

Either way, Phantasmagoria was not particularly influential. The FMV boom died out soon after Phantasmagoria, whereas Monkey Island's legacy lived on through the SCUMM engine.

I just remembered that LGBT themes have been around in visual novels and dating sims for a long time. The yaoi (gay) and yuri (lesbian) genres have been around in Japan for decades. It just too a long time for LGBT romance options to appear in Western games.

Still doesn't prove a connection. It's just speculation. Rachel Price sounds like a generic name.

This particular ride actually is one, same with Haunted Mansion. That is why they got adaptations in the first place. It seems you have not experienced it. Curse of the Black Pearl incorporates most of the ride. And once again, Monkey Island is heavily influenced by the ride, quit moving the goalposts.

But the SCUMM legacy belongs to Maniac Mansion, which was the first to use it. And once again, Full Throttle was LucasArts most successful adventure title. LucasArts was far more than just Monkey Island and its legacy did not start there.

But it was Life is Strange that brought it to the forefront in its main relationship, and it wasn't "just an option". A game that had 20 million players would do that.

Except Price is Chloe's last name and Rachel is the name of the friend that disappeared. Sounds like a dead ringer to me, just like Max Mayfield in Stranger Things.

To add, Life is Strange is more influential than The Walking Dead S1.

https://www.thegamer.com/life-is-strange-revisit-remastered-critical-reception/

And this is coming from somebody whining about how the first game overshadows the follow ups, to which she thinks are better, and gets the views of a key scene in the original incredibly wrong (mistaking the reason behind Chloe's wish to die in the alternate reality, which was about her terminal condition, not for being paralyzed).

"I love Life is Strange. The alternate timeline is a major flaw, but I still count it amongst my all-time favourite games. LiS2 and LiS:TC are better games both narratively and technically, and as a trans person I can relate to TMW more, but the first game has the authority of being the originator, not just of the series, but of a new style for this genre. I speak to a lot of devs in this genre, and although Telltale’s The Walking Dead launched first, Life is Strange is far more frequently cited as an inspiration."

Trying to follow thread

Life is Strange is a boring movie game

That won a Peabody award for being gay

But square didn't want to advertise it as a gay game

And the writer and designer of the game is abusive towards woman

And might be a nazi cus he put nazi symbols in the game

@texasgoldrush: You're the one shifting the goal post. I already proved there is a connection (POTC writers were working on Monkey Island movie) and a ton of similarities (see video I posted). You're the one trying to shift the goal post to Monkey Island being influenced by a theme park ride, which doesn't disprove anything I said.

Like I said, Monkey Island improved the SCUMM Engine to make it accessible and user-friendly. This is what led to SCUMM becoming the dominant engine for P&C adventures.

There have been yaoi and yuri games mainly about LGBT romance for decades, but they were mainly exclusive to Japan. LIS didn't break new ground in that regard. Even in the West, the TLOU DLC had lesbians as the main couple before LIS.

I've rarely seen any devs or writers actually cite LIS as an influence. The only one you've shown is Tales of Arise.

Except once again, POTC was the influence of Monkey Island, not the other way around, and once again, Monkey Island has homages to scenes from the ride including a puzzle trying to get a jail key from the dog. You refuse to acknowledge this. You are moving the goalposts.

Except Sierra never uses it, or Myst and Riven, which were the two most successful games in the genre in the 90's. LucasArts did not dominate or even direct the direction of the adventure game genre. And P&C adventures had a big fall despite LucasArts best games. Monkey Island is beloved, but it is not as important as you think.

Yes, Left Behind had a couple before Max and Chloe, but their relationship wasn't as deep as them. It was a side story. I never said LIS was the first to do it, hell Ulitma VII had LGBT moments, but LIS was the game known to do it the best at the time.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. That is the flaw of your arguments.

My boy's over here claiming LiS invented indie hipster lesbians as the main focus of the story in an adventure video game.

Meanwhile Gone Home's over in the corner watching on like:

How did this get past the other devs?

It didn't. The other devs caught them and lobbied for their removal which happened far to slowly.

This happened after Zak Garriss left. It was someone else.

@Vaasman said:

My boy's over here claiming LiS invented indie hipster lesbians as the main focus of the story in an adventure video game.

Meanwhile Gone Home's over in the corner watching on like:

Except, Gone home wasn't in depth fleshed out like it was in Life is Strange.

Never said that they "invented" it, they were the ones to claim the mantle.

@texasgoldrush said:

@Vaasman said:

My boy's over here claiming LiS invented indie hipster lesbians as the main focus of the story in an adventure video game.

Meanwhile Gone Home's over in the corner watching on like:

Except, Gone home wasn't in depth fleshed out like it was in Life is Strange.

And beyond moving the goalposts that's completely wrong. Gone Home is like a full 2-3 hours of teenage lesbian drama, including common tropey things like coming out, parental neglect and abuse, dealing with conflicts of society and expectations, eloping. The entire drive of the story is finding out why your lesbian sister isn't home right now (spoilers; it's because she's a lesbian). It's very fleshed out.

LiS is like 10 minutes of the 15 hour stretch they optionally look at each other googly eyes then you can kiss at the end. Not fleshed out. Unless you consider literally every moment the two leads interact to be LGBT drama, but that's just a disingenuous take.

@Vaasman said:

@texasgoldrush said:

@Vaasman said:

My boy's over here claiming LiS invented indie hipster lesbians as the main focus of the story in an adventure video game.

Meanwhile Gone Home's over in the corner watching on like:

Except, Gone home wasn't in depth fleshed out like it was in Life is Strange.

And beyond moving the goalposts that's completely wrong. Gone Home is like a full 2-3 hours of teenage lesbian drama, including common tropey things like coming out, parental neglect and abuse, dealing with conflicts of society and expectations, eloping. The entire drive of the story is finding out why your lesbian sister isn't home right now (spoilers; it's because she's a lesbian). It's very fleshed out.

LiS is like 10 minutes of the 15 hour stretch they optionally look at each other googly eyes then you can kiss at the end. Not fleshed out. Unless you consider literally every moment the two leads interact to be LGBT drama, but that's just a disingenuous take.

The problem is none of this was shown, and the story is only told through items. There is no real development unlike in Life is Strange. Gone Home is significant, but not the mantle. You never see the characters and their struggles, only hear or learn about them.

LIS is absolutely an LGBT drama full stop. And it isn't just Max and Chloe, but Chloe and Rachel were always hinted to be romantic in the first game. It was about Max's feeling for Chloe that drive the whole experience. In fact, if you "romance" Warren and not Chloe, Max will still choose Chloe over Warren. It is quite subtle but its there. Nevermind other games in the series. All LIS protagonists (outside Chris who is 9) are LGBT.

Another thing LIS has over Gone Home, the main character is LGBT.

Final Fantasy XVI was pretty dope though.

@texasgoldrush:

Your argument makes zero logical sense. To use an analogy to show how absurd your argument is: Resident Evil 4 influenced Gears of War, so there's no possible way Gears of War could've influenced RE5 according to your absurd logic. Monkey Island being influenced by the theme park does not negate Monkey Island influencing the movies.

Myst and Raven are FMV games. FMV games were a fad that barely lasted a few years. In contrast, Monkey Island's refinement of the SCUMM engine remained relevant for decades. Most Western point and click adventures since the '90s are influenced by Monkey Island, whether directly or indirectly.

There were numerous LGBT-themed games before LIS. You can't credit LIS for inspiring every LGBT game after it, especially if you don't have developer citations or connections to back it up.

If you're going to make a claim, then the burden of proof is on you to back it up. If you can't find developer citations or connections, then you have no real argument of its influence.

But once again Monkey Island existed because POTC existed, far more powerful influence than saying POTC movies had some common things with Monkey Island.

Myst and Riven were puzzle adventures, yes, while they use FMV's, that wasn't the drive of the game. And puzzle adventures like it exist today. Myst was far more influential than Monkey Island and easily the most influential 90's adventure game.

But LIS is one of the few and one of the first to actually character develop with LGBT sexuality.

But you don't need a creator's statement to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Your logic is like saying that you can't prove murder without a confession. That is silly.

@texasgoldrush: Again, that does not negate anything. Both things can be true at the same time: POTC ride influenced Monkey Island. And then Monkey Island influenced POTC movies. These are not mutually exclusive statements. You're trying to find a contradiction where there is none.

Myst helped drive PC CD-ROM sales, but it had very little influence on the evolution of the adventure game genre. It was Monkey Island which came to define the point & click adventure genre, with its user-friendly SCUMM interface, third-person perspective, character-driven story, witty writing and intuitive dialogue trees.

That's a doubtful claim. Other users here are saying Gone Home earlier had deeper LGBT character development than LIS. Earlier yaoi/yuri visual novels apparently also had deep LGBT character development as well.

That's not how the court system works. When you make a claim/allegation, the burden of proof is on you to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. If you can't find a confession, then you need to find evidence that the writer at least had knowledge of the game to establish a connection. If not, then you have a very weak case that would be thrown out of court.

But credit for "circular influence" goes to the creator of this circle, which was Walt Disney and POTC.

WRONG. In fact, it's influence overtook Sierra and LucasArt's games and is blamed for the decline of the genre. Myst is hugely influential with walking simulators and puzzle adventures. Once again, we still have first person puzzle adventure games today. Saying Myst has no impact on the evolution of adventure games is comedy.

Gone Home was actually more about homophobia and family reactions to an LGBT family member and repercussions of it than a development of a relationship. Life is Strange is about the development of a relationship and the importance of Chloe in Max's life and vise versa, so it is by far deeper.

But in this case, it is enough to easily "open the case". There are too many things for it to be "just coincidence", like a character named Jefferson. The game does have 20 million players and probably is the most successful adventure game ever.

@texasgoldrush: Completely illogical argument. That's like claiming Gears of War never influenced Resident Evil 5 just because Gears was influenced by RE4.

Incorrect. Your claim is debunked by your own favorite game Life is Strange: third-person perspective, character-driven story and dialogue trees. These are characteristics of LucasArts games like Monkey Island, not first-person FMV adventures like Myst. LucasArts games have left a stronger legacy than Myst.

Not too familiar with Gone Home, so can't comment on it. But Life is Strange is basically a yuri (lesbian) visual novel meets point and click adventure. It didn't break new ground.

Similarities is not proof beyond reasonable doubt. You need to establish a connection as well. And it's not the most successful adventure game. Actual sales and revenue matter, not free players.

And we don't really talk about it because RE5 is seen as the wrong direction, but once again, circular influence goes to the originator.

Wrong. Life is Strange is a combination of point and click classic adventures which King's Quest pioneered, with first person walking sim that Myst pioneered (made into third person), with Heavy Rain style choose your own adventure.

Except it was also THE "Game for Impact"

Most of those are sales, especially early. And there is revenue for PS Plus and Game Pass as well. Don't Nod went from bankrupt to thriving overnight.

@texasgoldrush: Again, being influenced by something earlier does not negate the fact it influenced something later. Your argument is a logical fallacy.

Life is Strange is a third-person adventure with a character-driven story and dialogue trees like LucasArts games, not first-person environmental adventure like Myst. LIS combined LucasArts style point and click adventure with Shenmue and Heavy Rain style 3D walking sim and visual novel style character storytelling and choices.

Again, TLOU popularized LGBT themes before LIS.

3M are confirmed sales. Most of the 20M are free players.

But its influence is not as big as the original influence. That much is clear.

But Life is Strange is an environmental adventure along with everything else. The reason why LIS may be the most successful adventure game of all time is not only did they mix many different types of adventure games, but included the best LGBT relationship in a game that was the heart of the story, as well as having rewind, unique to an adventure game.

But TLOU did not have the LGBT relationship be the driving force.

The 3M number is very outdated, from years ago. Tracking this game, I will tell you this. A big chunk of these 20 million players are sales. The numbers on Steam trackers jumped whenever there was a sale, and even when the first episode became free, there was also a sale. Second, the game is very cheap, and on sale, it was $10 or less. It is very easy to sell a game like this at that price (and the more expensive follow ups sold less). Next, the trackers showed average and median playtimes longer than the length of the game. If it was mostly free first episode players, the numbers would be a lot lower. Life is Strange also has a large social media footprint, nearly matching Final Fantasy (and beating them on Twitter), and even SquareEnix noted this. Life is Strange is also a shock hit in China and well received in Japan. Plus the original is on every modern system and on mobile. Oh, and the comics were so surprisingly successful, what should have been 4 issues ballooned to 6 volumes (and 23 issues), and that is not counting the new Alex Chen comics.

Then come the GamePass and PS Plus subscribers and you get 20 million. And Don't Nod went from bankrupt to fielding multiple products and teams after LIS's success.

I know this, I have used the Steam trackers to accurately predict Telltale's downfall, seeing declining sales of their games.

@texasgoldrush: Like I said, LIS is a LucasArts style point & click adventure meets visual novel. The rewind mechanic is a combination of Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time and the time travel mechanics in visual novels like YU-NO and Steins Gate.

Again, there were plenty of earlier visual novels with LGBT relationships as the driving force as well as Gone Home, while The Last of Us popularized LGBT themes to a larger audience. More generally, the popularization of LGBT themes in video games was largely due to the influence of wider pop culture.

Counting free downloads is ridiculous. FF7R had 30M+ free downloads, yet you were claiming it's a "failure" in another thread, contradicting your claims about LIS in this thread. Sonic had a billion+ downloads, which must make Sonic more successful than Mario by your logic. Free downloads does not mean success.

The only confirmed sales for LIS is 3M reported a year after its release. Anything after that is speculation. Even Steam trackers fail to distinguish free downloads from actual sales. In terms of confirmed sales, LIS is beaten by adventure games like Myst, Professor Layton, The Walking Dead, Heavy Rain and LA Noire. In terms of which adventure game spawned the biggest franchise, it would be the visual novel Fate/stay night, which spawned a multi-billion franchise.

LucasArts style is basically Sierra style, not much difference. King's Quest is the template for the entire genre except for games like Myst.

But once again, you are the outsider to the LGBT relationship in Gone Home, and until the DLC, and outsider as well in TLOU. And once again, the DLC isn't as deep as Life is Strange.

Except most of the players of LIS seems to have bought it. Once again, every sale, the numbers on the trackers increase, that mean people are buying the game. And that confirmed sales number is from 2017, its 2024, the game has sold far more and evergreened, get a clue.

@texasgoldrush: LucasArts style is an evolution of Sierra style, with improved engine, user-friendly interface, character-driven story, witty writing and dialog trees.

In the TLOU DLC, Ellie's lesbian relationship was a focus of the story.

I've seen the trackers. They don't differentiate between sales and free downloads. You also have to take into account there are five episodes, so numbers are inflated by the same users downloading multiple episodes.

At this point you guys really should make a thread about monkey island vs life is strange specifically.

@sakaixx:

It isn't already?

Sorry. I kinda feel partly responsible for this, for my reply challenging texasgoldrush on Monkey Island's cultural relevance. My bad.

And Sierra didn't have those things? The company that had Leisure Suit Larry and Roger Wilco? And once again, King's Quest V had a user friendly interface. Are you going to ignore that?

But the TLOU DLC isn't really in depth like "Pricefield" or "Amberprice" were in LIS.

Trackers don't do that, they pick up the first episode or the entire game, and once again, in how LIS's tracker numbers always increased on when the game was on sale, most of the number are full game sales. If you think of similar scenarios with PS and Xbox, they probably sold more than half of those 20 million, which would mean LIS could be the best selling adventure game ever. Also the Steam stats of LIS are higher than that of Telltale's The Walking Dead, so it basically passed it up.

@texasgoldrush: I don't see any dialog trees in Leisure Suit Larry or Space Quest. The interface is quite primitive and there's no music either. Monkey Island was a major evolution for the point & click genre in terms of interface, story, character development, dialog trees, graphics and sound.

Even if it's not as in-depth, TLOU DLC was played by millions years before LIS released. TLOU normalized lesbian relationships in mainstream video games (beyond niche "yuri" visual novels), opening the door for games like LIS.

Steam trackers show LIS Episode 1 had 5-6M players on Steam. And that's a free download. The number of Steam players who paid for subsequent episodes must be around 1-2M. LIS probably didn't sell much beyond the 3M it sold back in 2017. If it did, then Square Enix would've bragged about it... You should know this, as this is the very argument you used against FF7 Rebirth in another thread! LIS likely sold around 4M, hence why Square Enix never updated that 3M sales figure from 2017. It's nowhere close to being the best-selling adventure game.

Except once again, King's Quest V also did the same thing, outside of dialogue trees (which Alice in Wonderland from 1985 had). Sierra's games also have witty writing and focus on story. Monkey Island did not bring it to the table by itself. It wasn't the evolution you think it was. Sierra was still the main driver here.

Except Bioware did it before TLOU. Several romances were LGBT. Once again, Life is Strange is the one that was the most fleshed out.

Except the first episode was not a free download until between the second and third year after launch. Second, other stats and how the game sold during sales do not support what you think their numbers are. Nevermind right after they announced the sales for the game in 2017, the prequel was announced and SquareEnix's focus shifted to the follow ups. Life is Strange evergreened on a strong word of mouth for years, and very cheap prices on sales, selling at $5 for the entire game at points.