Scorpio developers not forced to run at 4K, can use extra horsepower for higher quality assets at 1080p

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Guy_Brohski

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#1  Edited By Guy_Brohski
Member since 2013 • 2221 Posts

http://www.videogamer.com/news/developers_can_use_scorpios_6_teraflops_however_they_wish_says_spencer.html

Glad Phil Spencer reiterated as now we know developers can use the Scorpio's power however they see fit, so we will see 1080p games with higher quality assets for people who only have 1080p TV's.

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Wasdie

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#2 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

That's good because 4k resolution at any modern graphical fidelity isn't happening on a Scorpio. Even at 30 fps.

4k is still a year or two off on the PC, and that's for cards that are $600+. A console that will come in at probably $500 never had a chance at doing 4k for the high fidelity games.

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Spitfire-Six

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#3 Spitfire-Six
Member since 2014 • 1378 Posts

@Wasdie: What the hell are you talking about, I can play lots of games on my PC 4k 30fps.

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Wasdie

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#4  Edited By Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

@spitfire-six said:

@Wasdie: What the hell are you talking about, I can play lots of games on my PC 4k 30fps.

With a what... $600 GPU?

My $500 GTX 780 can't do 4k30 on anything that's reasonably high fidelity so I would love to know what you're running and how much you paid, and what kind of graphical sacrifices you made, to run at 4k30.

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Spitfire-Six

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#5 Spitfire-Six
Member since 2014 • 1378 Posts

@Wasdie said:

That's good because 4k resolution at any modern graphical fidelity isn't happening on a Scorpio. Even at 30 fps.

4k is still a year or two off on the PC, and that's for cards that are $600+. A console that will come in at probably $500 never had a chance at doing 4k for the high fidelity games.

Did you not mean to include $600 cards? I have a x99 mb with an 5820k 980ti and 16 gb of ddr4.

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FreedomFreeLife

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#6 FreedomFreeLife
Member since 2013 • 3948 Posts

Read again. It don't give 4k native resolution, it only upscaled to 4k

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Wasdie

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#7 Wasdie  Moderator
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@FreedomFreeLife said:

Read again. It don't give 4k native resolution, it only upscaled to 4k

That's not true either. The thing is perfectly capable of doing 4k native output. That's if you want to severely sacrifice fidelity.

The plan, as I current interpret it, is to get the game as close to 4k as they can at a playable framerate and upscale the rest of the way. I feel that's half assing it and they shouldn't be marketing the thing as a 4k console until they are doing native.

This console would destroy 1080p60 for pretty much every game out there. That's good enough for the vast majority of gamers. There is no reason to push 4k like they are.

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Spitfire-Six

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#8  Edited By Spitfire-Six
Member since 2014 • 1378 Posts

@FreedomFreeLife: Scorpion will render native 4k. Hence the comments of a 4k framebuffer.

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Guy_Brohski

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#9 Guy_Brohski
Member since 2013 • 2221 Posts

@FreedomFreeLife: Lol, denial.

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Spitfire-Six

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#10 Spitfire-Six
Member since 2014 • 1378 Posts

@Wasdie: That is not the goal, the memory bandwidth and the fact that the console will have enough memory to contain a 4k frame buffer means they plan to render 4k native. I am not sure where you are getting this half render upscale nonsense.

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Wasdie

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#11 Wasdie  Moderator
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@spitfire-six said:

@Wasdie: That is not the goal, the memory bandwidth and the fact that the console will have enough memory to contain a 4k frame buffer means they plan to render 4k native. I am not sure where you are getting this half render upscale nonsense.

They can have all of the memory bandwidth they want, the GPU is not powerful enough to do high fidelity and 4k at even 30 fps.

Digital Foundry had an article on it saying the same thing. They don't expect Scorpio games to be running native 4k.

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Guy_Brohski

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#12 Guy_Brohski
Member since 2013 • 2221 Posts

@Wasdie: Lol c'mon dude, your GTX 780 might have cost $500 back in 2013, but now there's cheaper GPU's that outperform it.

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Epak_

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#13  Edited By Epak_
Member since 2004 • 11911 Posts

All future consoles should do 1080p minimum, no more ****** compromises. NX should be at PS4 level minimum, preferably at least at NEO level. Then NX, NEO and especially Scorpio would be worth getting IMO, since I've been pretty satisfied with the PS4 so far (as a console gamer). My next TV will definitely be 4K, they're not even that expensive anymore, but I don't have to have 4K support like at this very minute.

@Guy_Brohski said:

@Wasdie: Lol c'mon dude, your GTX 780 might have cost $500 back in 2013, but now there's cheaper GPU's that outperform it.

Exactly.

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Spitfire-Six

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#14 Spitfire-Six
Member since 2014 • 1378 Posts

@Wasdie: Digital Foundry are not developers nor do they actually write any code. So excuse me if I dont immediately listen to them as they gestimate how many CU's a chip has. 6tf on a console, will not perform the same as 6tf on a PC. This should be evident by now and 6tf is only the theoretical computing power. So for you to give a definitive answer as if you know this for sure is also misleading and out of character for you.

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mayceV

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#16 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts

I hope this is the route that mos games take. I'd perfer they push for 1080p 60FPS on everything more than 4k anything. Save 4k for gen 9. Gen8 needs to get 1080p done right first. I wonder how much of a graphical jump this will result in if the box sells.

probably preferred to have an option for res. I don't see myself getting a 4k TV for a while. 1080p x4 AA would be preferred.

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bunchanumbers

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#17 bunchanumbers
Member since 2013 • 5709 Posts

I don't see the issue. Nintendo made 1080p/60 happen on a potato plugged into a light socket. I'm sure that the power of Scorpio will make sure that 4k and 30 fps at the minimum will be possible. What do you think the power difference is between Wii U and Scorpio? 10 times? Maybe 20 times? Either way I think that Scorpio has the power to deliver the goods.

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emgesp

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#18 emgesp
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@Wasdie said:

That's good because 4k resolution at any modern graphical fidelity isn't happening on a Scorpio. Even at 30 fps.

4k is still a year or two off on the PC, and that's for cards that are $600+. A console that will come in at probably $500 never had a chance at doing 4k for the high fidelity games.

6 Tflops should be enough to take an XB1 build and push it to 4K, but yeah I'd rather they push 1080p 60fps with higher quality graphics.

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ronvalencia

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#19  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@Wasdie said:
@spitfire-six said:

@Wasdie: That is not the goal, the memory bandwidth and the fact that the console will have enough memory to contain a 4k frame buffer means they plan to render 4k native. I am not sure where you are getting this half render upscale nonsense.

They can have all of the memory bandwidth they want, the GPU is not powerful enough to do high fidelity and 4k at even 30 fps.

Digital Foundry had an article on it saying the same thing. They don't expect Scorpio games to be running native 4k.

Digital Foundry is wrong with Scorpio's 50/60 CU estimate i.e. Digital Foundry failed to estimate CU count based on SoC size. Vega 10 with 64 CU is effectively 14 nm version Fury X's 590 mm^2 with Polaris fixes e.g. better geometry engine and clock speed. Vega 10 is estimated to be 300 mm^2 in size.

Scorpio's SoC. Note the relative size for SoC vs GDDR5 module

PS4's SoC with a known 348 mm^2 chip size

Scorpio's SoC is smaller than PS4's SoC, hence any Vega 10 size GPU solution is debunked!!

If XBox One game was designed for 1920x1080p at 1.3 TFLOPS, Scorpio can run it at 4K native i.e. 1.3 TFLOPS x 4 = 5.2. TFLOPS. Scorpio has 6 TFLOPS.

Some of PC's graphics effects has diminished return vs visual fidelity gain e.g. HBAO+ has higher compute consumption over cheaper SSAO with minimal visual fidelity gain. There's very little need for MSAA at 4K. Another problem on the PC is GPU politics.

Larger gain for visual fidelity on consoles would be 16X Anisotropic Filtering (AF) i.e. maximize texture's quality. AF works with TMUs not ALUs (for TFLOPS).

Scorpio's GPU solution is better than R9-390X (5.9 TFLOPS) and RX-480 (5.83 TFLOPS)

Hitman 2016 with ultra settings and 4K, R9-390X scored 42 fps.

Star Wars BattleFront 2015 with ultra settings and 4K, R9-390X scored 37 fps.

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#20  Edited By BassMan
Member since 2002 • 17906 Posts

Scorpio will be garbage for 4K, but good for 1080p/60fps. As always, if you really care about quality and performance, you should be gaming on PC. When the Scorpio launches in 18 months, PC hardware will rape it.

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lamprey263

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#21 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44679 Posts

the PS NeoGAF defense force was relying on that not being the case

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ronvalencia

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#22  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@BassMan said:

Scorpio will be garbage for 4K, but good for 1080p/60fps.

Star Wars BattleFront 2015, Scorpio is good for2560x1440p/60 fps e.g. the inferior R9-390X scored 69 fps.

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#23  Edited By BassMan
Member since 2002 • 17906 Posts

@ronvalencia: Game fidelity will increase in 18 months time. So, 1080p/60fps seems more realistic. Also, SW: BF looks great, but not all games run on such an efficient engine as Frostbite.

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ronvalencia

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#24  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@BassMan said:

@ronvalencia: Game fidelity will increase in 18 months time. So, 1080p/60fps seems more realistic. Also, SW: BF looks great, but not all games run on such an efficient engine as Frostbite.

60 fps is not required if Scorpio has FreeSync over HDMI i.e. any frame rate between 30 to 60 fps is good.

Certain games doesn't require 60 fps.

The purpose for G-sync or FreeSync is to remove the 60 fps requirement.

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#25  Edited By BassMan
Member since 2002 • 17906 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@BassMan said:

@ronvalencia: Game fidelity will increase in 18 months time. So, 1080p/60fps seems more realistic. Also, SW: BF looks great, but not all games run on such an efficient engine as Frostbite.

60 fps is not required if Scorpio has FreeSync over HDMI i.e. any frame rate between 30 to 60 fps is good.

Not really. I have G-Sync currently and while it helps with lower frame rates, a low frame rate is still a low frame rate. You still feel the missing frames and added judder. I definitely hope that TVs start to incorporate adaptive refresh technology soon as it does help.

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ronvalencia

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#26  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@BassMan said:
@ronvalencia said:
@BassMan said:

@ronvalencia: Game fidelity will increase in 18 months time. So, 1080p/60fps seems more realistic. Also, SW: BF looks great, but not all games run on such an efficient engine as Frostbite.

60 fps is not required if Scorpio has FreeSync over HDMI i.e. any frame rate between 30 to 60 fps is good.

Not really. I have G-Sync currently and while it helps with lower frame rates, a low frame rate is still a low frame rate. You still feel the missing frames and added judder.

Have you reduce the graphics settings one level down? G-sync/Free-Sync wouldn't solve driver stall issues e.g. driver re-compiler stall.

Xbox doesn't have PC's driver re-compiler stall.

The purpose for Shader Model 6 is make the shading to be more efficient when compared to Shader Model 5 i.e. better matching with modern hardware.

AMD PC GPUs and consoles can bypass the driver's re-compiler issues.

Loading Video...

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#27  Edited By BassMan
Member since 2002 • 17906 Posts

@ronvalencia: The main purpose of G-Sync/FreeSync is to eliminate screen tearing. It does that great. However, you still notice low frame rates and fluctuations in frame rate. Especially at lower frame rates. One of the good things about the tech is that if your hardware is not up to par and can't deliver 60fps+, you can set a limit of say 45fps and get a somewhat smooth experience without tearing and distracting fluctuations.

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gamecubepad

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#28 gamecubepad
Member since 2003 • 7214 Posts

Multiplats like TW3, SWBF, and Hitman run at settings roughly equivalent to PC med/high settings. The benchmarks we commonly see are for ultra settings on PC.

Likewise, NEO/Scorpio games will be running med/high mixes. Scorpio at 6TF and according to the 390x-Fury benchmark leaks should hit 4k/30fps or 1440p/60fps no problem.

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Ten_Pints

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#29 Ten_Pints
Member since 2014 • 4072 Posts

Is it me or do none of the Microsoft PR guys have a clue what they want to do with this new Xbox. Phil said there's no point in the new Xbox if you are running game at 1080p, now suddenly there will be 1080p games on it with better graphics.

Stop flip flopping Microsoft.

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ronvalencia

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#30  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@gamecubepad said:

Multiplats like TW3, SWBF, and Hitman run at settings roughly equivalent to PC med/high settings. The benchmarks we commonly see are for ultra settings on PC.

Likewise, NEO/Scorpio games will be running med/high mixes. Scorpio at 6TF and according to the 390x-Fury benchmark leaks should hit 4k/30fps or 1440p/60fps no problem.

I usually step down my graphics settings since visual fidelity reduction is minor i.e. large frame rate drop for minimal visual fidelity gain is wasteful.

For medium settings at 4K

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gamecubepad

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#31 gamecubepad
Member since 2003 • 7214 Posts

@ronvalencia:

Mostly high settings with a few med/ultra settings is the way I usually roll. The difference in image quality is minimal.

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#32  Edited By dynamitecop
Member since 2004 • 6395 Posts

@Wasdie said:

That's good because 4k resolution at any modern graphical fidelity isn't happening on a Scorpio. Even at 30 fps.

4k is still a year or two off on the PC, and that's for cards that are $600+. A console that will come in at probably $500 never had a chance at doing 4k for the high fidelity games.

This is a 5.6 Teraflop 290X running all of these games on their MAXIMUM possible settings at 3200x1800, it will be outclassed and out-performed architecturally by whatever 6~ Teraflop GPU is in Scopio, not to mention it's running on a PC which is in and of itself a less optimizable configuration by default.

Given the fact that consoles don't ever render games at maximum settings, I have no doubt Scorpio will handle 4K perfectly fine in the high to very high range.

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#33 FreedomFreeLife
Member since 2013 • 3948 Posts

@spitfire-six said:

@FreedomFreeLife: Scorpion will render native 4k. Hence the comments of a 4k framebuffer.

So you confirmed that game will not run 4k which is still same as upscaled. And like he said: GAME WILL BE 100% SAME, THERE WILL BE NO BETTER GRAPHICS OR FRAME RATE. IT ONLY GIVES 4K TVS TO UPSCALED VERSION BECUASE NORMAL CONSOLE CANT DO THAT

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#34  Edited By Howmakewood
Member since 2015 • 7718 Posts

@FreedomFreeLife said:
@spitfire-six said:

@FreedomFreeLife: Scorpion will render native 4k. Hence the comments of a 4k framebuffer.

So you confirmed that game will not run 4k which is still same as upscaled. And like he said: GAME WILL BE 100% SAME, THERE WILL BE NO BETTER GRAPHICS OR FRAME RATE. IT ONLY GIVES 4K TVS TO UPSCALED VERSION BECUASE NORMAL CONSOLE CANT DO THAT

No he specifically said the games can run on native 4K but don't have to if developer rather goes for lower resolution... but yes it can run NATIVE 4K

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deactivated-5bda06edf37ee

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#35 deactivated-5bda06edf37ee
Member since 2010 • 4675 Posts

Use higher quality assets in 1080p, as they should.

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FreedomFreeLife

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#36 FreedomFreeLife
Member since 2013 • 3948 Posts

@howmakewood said:
@FreedomFreeLife said:
@spitfire-six said:

@FreedomFreeLife: Scorpion will render native 4k. Hence the comments of a 4k framebuffer.

So you confirmed that game will not run 4k which is still same as upscaled. And like he said: GAME WILL BE 100% SAME, THERE WILL BE NO BETTER GRAPHICS OR FRAME RATE. IT ONLY GIVES 4K TVS TO UPSCALED VERSION BECUASE NORMAL CONSOLE CANT DO THAT

No he specifically said the games can run on native 4K but don't have to if developer rather goes for lower resolution... but yes it can run NATIVE 4K

You know that to run native 4k you need more powerful console and graphics and frame rate? and they said that Scorpio is part of Xbox One and there is no graphics upgrade or any frame rate upgrade, in fact it changes nothing. Its only allows now xbox games to play in 4k tv. xbox even has problem to upgrade games to 1080p and suddenly they run all native 4k? lol it needs 2000 dollar machine to run native 4k. again, its not native, they said theirselves.

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#37 Alucard_Prime
Member since 2008 • 10107 Posts

Yeah for sure I knew that, makes sense. But what's important in all this is to understand that to get the full benefit, and probably the biggest benefit I would think but that's just my opinion I could be wrong, you need a 4K TV. It's designed for that. Sure you'll see benefits at 1080p, but you'd be paying for a premium 4K device without using the 4K.

So if you want the Scorpio and don't plan to get 4K, you can do that but you would be wasting some money paying for a feature(arguably the main feature) you're not using. That's why Phil cannot directly recommend it for 1080p tvs, it would be irresponsible of him if he did.

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tormentos

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#38 tormentos
Member since 2003 • 33784 Posts

Hahaha wow what the fu** is happening with MS they say something 1 minute and 15 latter change their stance. I guess they are doing this for the benches to try to keep every one happy...lol

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#39 Howmakewood
Member since 2015 • 7718 Posts

@FreedomFreeLife said:
@howmakewood said:
@FreedomFreeLife said:
@spitfire-six said:

@FreedomFreeLife: Scorpion will render native 4k. Hence the comments of a 4k framebuffer.

So you confirmed that game will not run 4k which is still same as upscaled. And like he said: GAME WILL BE 100% SAME, THERE WILL BE NO BETTER GRAPHICS OR FRAME RATE. IT ONLY GIVES 4K TVS TO UPSCALED VERSION BECUASE NORMAL CONSOLE CANT DO THAT

No he specifically said the games can run on native 4K but don't have to if developer rather goes for lower resolution... but yes it can run NATIVE 4K

You know that to run native 4k you need more powerful console and graphics and frame rate? and they said that Scorpio is part of Xbox One and there is no graphics upgrade or any frame rate upgrade, in fact it changes nothing. Its only allows now xbox games to play in 4k tv. xbox even has problem to upgrade games to 1080p and suddenly they run all native 4k? lol it needs 2000 dollar machine to run native 4k. again, its not native, they said theirselves.

I do know what is required to run 4k on PC, my 980ti can run games at 4K but not on 60fps. Scorpio's specs are good enough to get 30fps on reasonable settings on 4K. Rest of your post is just bullshit and they said no such thing. You can play current xbox games on 4k tv, the tv will upscale them to 4k.

"if developers want to use those 6 teraflops in other ways they're free to do that."

It's up to devs to decide how they want to use the power in Scorpio.

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SecretPolice

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#40 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 44277 Posts

This seemed obvious to me and sure is the right way to go.

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Addict187

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#41 Addict187
Member since 2008 • 1128 Posts

@spitfire-six said:

@Wasdie: What the hell are you talking about, I can play lots of games on my PC 4k 30fps.

I can play games at 4K 60 fps they are a few years old like mass effect 1 2 3

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loe12k

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#42 loe12k
Member since 2013 • 3465 Posts

I have zero interest in owning a 4K tv anytime soon. I want my games to be 1080p 60 frames with bells and whistles 8xMSAA or higher i am happy.

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delta3074

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#43 delta3074
Member since 2007 • 20003 Posts

@tormentos said:

Hahaha wow what the fu** is happening with MS they say something 1 minute and 15 latter change their stance. I guess they are doing this for the benches to try to keep every one happy...lol

the same thing thats always been happening with Microsoft since the Xbox one released Backtrack after Backtrack.

Also some times i think Phil is on a different page to the rest of MS it sometimes appears as if hes completely out of the loop

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#44 delta3074
Member since 2007 • 20003 Posts

@FreedomFreeLife said:
@howmakewood said:
@FreedomFreeLife said:
@spitfire-six said:

@FreedomFreeLife: Scorpion will render native 4k. Hence the comments of a 4k framebuffer.

So you confirmed that game will not run 4k which is still same as upscaled. And like he said: GAME WILL BE 100% SAME, THERE WILL BE NO BETTER GRAPHICS OR FRAME RATE. IT ONLY GIVES 4K TVS TO UPSCALED VERSION BECUASE NORMAL CONSOLE CANT DO THAT

No he specifically said the games can run on native 4K but don't have to if developer rather goes for lower resolution... but yes it can run NATIVE 4K

You know that to run native 4k you need more powerful console and graphics and frame rate? and they said that Scorpio is part of Xbox One and there is no graphics upgrade or any frame rate upgrade, in fact it changes nothing. Its only allows now xbox games to play in 4k tv. xbox even has problem to upgrade games to 1080p and suddenly they run all native 4k? lol it needs 2000 dollar machine to run native 4k. again, its not native, they said theirselves.

you didn't factor in that developers are able to extract more performance from consoles than from equivalent PC hardware.

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Wickerman777

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#45 Wickerman777
Member since 2013 • 2164 Posts

@Wasdie said:
@FreedomFreeLife said:

Read again. It don't give 4k native resolution, it only upscaled to 4k

That's not true either. The thing is perfectly capable of doing 4k native output. That's if you want to severely sacrifice fidelity.

The plan, as I current interpret it, is to get the game as close to 4k as they can at a playable framerate and upscale the rest of the way. I feel that's half assing it and they shouldn't be marketing the thing as a 4k console until they are doing native.

This console would destroy 1080p60 for pretty much every game out there. That's good enough for the vast majority of gamers. There is no reason to push 4k like they are.

Well, considering that almost none of the so-called UHD blu rays for 4K blu ray are actually 4k either why not? If Hollywood can upscale and call it 4k why not video games?

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Ten_Pints

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#46 Ten_Pints
Member since 2014 • 4072 Posts

@delta3074 said:
@FreedomFreeLife said:
@howmakewood said:
@FreedomFreeLife said:
@spitfire-six said:

@FreedomFreeLife: Scorpion will render native 4k. Hence the comments of a 4k framebuffer.

So you confirmed that game will not run 4k which is still same as upscaled. And like he said: GAME WILL BE 100% SAME, THERE WILL BE NO BETTER GRAPHICS OR FRAME RATE. IT ONLY GIVES 4K TVS TO UPSCALED VERSION BECUASE NORMAL CONSOLE CANT DO THAT

No he specifically said the games can run on native 4K but don't have to if developer rather goes for lower resolution... but yes it can run NATIVE 4K

You know that to run native 4k you need more powerful console and graphics and frame rate? and they said that Scorpio is part of Xbox One and there is no graphics upgrade or any frame rate upgrade, in fact it changes nothing. Its only allows now xbox games to play in 4k tv. xbox even has problem to upgrade games to 1080p and suddenly they run all native 4k? lol it needs 2000 dollar machine to run native 4k. again, its not native, they said theirselves.

you didn't factor in that developers are able to extract more performance from consoles than from equivalent PC hardware.

The current consoles, at least multiplats it's the opposite.

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#47 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

@spitfire-six said:

@Wasdie: What the hell are you talking about, I can play lots of games on my PC 4k 30fps.

Why would any pc gamer want to play at 30fps to begin with?

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#48  Edited By Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 20239 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@BassMan said:

Scorpio will be garbage for 4K, but good for 1080p/60fps.

Star Wars BattleFront 2015, Scorpio is good for2560x1440p/60 fps e.g. the inferior R9-390X scored 69 fps.

I think you read that chart wrong. Battlefront averages at 37 at 4K. 69 is for 1440p.

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#49 Guy_Brohski
Member since 2013 • 2221 Posts

@FreedomFreeLife: The Scorpio has a much better GPU/CPU combo than the regular Xbox One/Type S. The Scorpio can do 4K native, and it is 4 times as powerful as regular Xbox One.

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#50 FreedomFreeLife
Member since 2013 • 3948 Posts

@Guy_Brohski said:

@FreedomFreeLife: The Scorpio has a much better GPU/CPU combo than the regular Xbox One/Type S. The Scorpio can do 4K native, and it is 4 times as powerful as regular Xbox One.

lol scorpio is not 4 time more powerful as regular xbox one. just because it has few teraflops more does not mean that is more powerful. When you upgrade 500mb ram to 4gb then console is 8 time more powerful by your logic. They just upgraded 1 teraflops to six. To run games 4k native you need video card, cpu, gpu, ram, memory, int and stuff like that, totally new hardware. you need 2000 dollar hardware