Reality check: there's more to graphics than just textures (56k warning)

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fuzzysquash

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#1 fuzzysquash
Member since 2004 • 17374 Posts

It seems that nearly every time someone rips apart a game, they do so by taking a poor screenshot of said title and pointing at its texture flaws.

The most notorious of these examples is Metal Gear Solid 4. At TGS 2005 when the first trailer was unveiled, nearly everyone except for the Metal Gear fans said that the graphics were CGI. When it turned out that the graphics were real-time, critics quickly changed their position by saying that the game wasn't really that impressive after all, since the textures were--as some claimed--"N64 quality." In fact, numerous comparison pictures were posted of N64 game textures against close-ups of MGS4 textures in pictures like the one below:

Is the above screenshot hard on the eyes? In some ways, yes. Is it representative of the visual quality of the game? Not even close.

What bad screenshot cherry-pickers often fail to verbalize is that there are many things that a still image cannot capture. Still pictures can convey the high detail of its character models, but many visual elements that buttress the presentational quality of MGS4 are only discernable in motion. For example, the game's destructible environments, massive firefights, frame rate performance, animation quality, and details such as dust effects following collapsing buildings are only visible when observing the game as it's running.

  • Debut Gameplay Demonstration
  • Assassin's Solid Gameplay

MGS4 isn't the only game whose reputation suffers as a result of poor textures. Halo 3 was criticized for both texture and aliasing issues early on in its development.

The final game is still imperfect in these respects, but it does not warrant the criticism that Bungie "lied" in its original trailer.

What remains true is that Halo 3 features some of the biggest, most visually impressive battlefield vistas ever, with dozens of battleships flying overhead and firefights breaking out across the map. The moment when a Marine airborne carrier blocked out the sun and nearly landed on my head was one of those "oh ****" moments that you just can't convey in screenshots. These moments and vistas make up for any tiny flaws that can be seen by staring at some ground or wall texture. But so often, that's how screenshot cherry-pickers try to narrowly define a game.

  • Scarab Tank Battle
  • E3 2007 Gameplay Trailer

The Grand Theft Auto series is another example of a franchise unjustly portrayed as visually ugly games due to texture issues. People point at GTA IV's textures and say that gamers will invariably be disappointed.

But GTA games have never been about constructing the perfect environment for a nice looking screenshot. Instead, Rockstar North has always tried to convey the best presentation in the context of a massive open world game. Staring at the textures of a single burned out car might give credence to the notion that the game is graphically ugly, but take a step back in any GTA game and you'll see the immense amount of time and energy that went into detailing a stylistically distinctive but immersive world.

  • Everyone's a Rat Trailer

And remember the huge public outcry against Mass Effect following the release of these screenshots?

Fans were enraged and cherry-pickers made a festival of posting them in order to push the point that Bioware had deceived the gaming community with their initial trailers.

The final game still has some bland textures and pop-in issues, but it also features unprecedented real-time conversational animations, stunning biotic and tech effects, and richly detailed environments wrapped in a visually convincing sci-fi universe.

  • Galactic Conquest Gameplay Montage
  • Launch Trailer

So what's the purpose of this thread? To excuse developers for games that feature poor textures?

Not at all.

My point is that from a visual standpoint, the quality of a game is so much more than simply its texture fidelity, and gamers should be wary of screenshot cherry-pickers who try to bring down a game by defining its presentational quality strictly in this narrow-sighted way.

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mccoyca112

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#2 mccoyca112
Member since 2007 • 5434 Posts

Wow dude, great post :)

The only game in that list that I find both mediocre in screens/real person is M.E but the rest were hit right on the nail

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elbow2k

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#3 elbow2k
Member since 2007 • 1645 Posts

If the game is good or has some hype around you know there will be haters lurking around any corner ready to blast a game on it's smallest faults. That's how it is; if you don't like something, you'll go to any extent in order to bring it down. But like you said it's gotten to a point where it is totally unnecessary.

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linkin_guy109

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#4 linkin_guy109
Member since 2005 • 8864 Posts
*auplauds* incredible thread, i completely agree with everything you said
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Mordred19

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#5 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts
This thread is a service to SW. I hope it appreciates it.
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Mordred19

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#6 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts

This thread is a service to SW. I hope it appreciates it.

I once tried to make a topic about this sort of thing, but I didn't have near as good of a presentation as this.

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sonicmj1

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#7 sonicmj1
Member since 2003 • 9130 Posts

I find it pretty annoying when people try and bring down good-looking games by nitpicking textures or jaggies. It always seems to me like they're missing the point.

Is a game really going to be ruined for you because you notice a single jagged edge in a single frame, or see a slightly muddy texture? Or aren't you going to be busy actually playing the game?

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taker42

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#8 taker42
Member since 2007 • 1614 Posts

Cool post. Unfortunately, I doubt those "cherry-pickers" will stop. And people will still respond to them and the cycle goes on. Still good effort!

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Zenkuso

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#9 Zenkuso
Member since 2006 • 4090 Posts
Thats why you don't judge a game until its released ;) good work fuzzy
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linkin_guy109

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#10 linkin_guy109
Member since 2005 • 8864 Posts

I find it pretty annoying when people try and bring down good-looking games by nitpicking textures or jaggies. It always seems to me like they're missing the point.

Is a game really going to be ruined for you because you notice a single jagged edge in a single frame, or see a slightly muddy texture? Or aren't you going to be busy actually playing the game?

sonicmj1

if a game is incredible graphics can be excused, just look at san andreas, the graphics were.....well...not great, but the game was godly and stayed on gamespots front page for 2 years after its initial launch it was so popular here

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Antikyth3ra

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#11 Antikyth3ra
Member since 2008 • 636 Posts

I Agree and Disagree..

When a game has crappy textures it has crappy textures. There are no ands, its or buts about it. I know this thread its 100% trying to back MGS4 and I must say the games graphics are average in todays generation. Faces look nice I will say that Solid Snakes face is an amazing job.

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Mordred19

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#12 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts

I Agree and Disagree..

When a game has crappy textures it has crappy textures. There are no ands, its or buts about it. I know this thread its 100% trying to back MGS4 and I must say the games graphics are average in todays generation. Faces look nice I will say that Solid Snakes face is an amazing job.

Antikyth3ra

60fps. you can't convey that in a screeshot.

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Mordred19

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#13 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts

I Agree and Disagree..

When a game has crappy textures it has crappy textures. There are no ands, its or buts about it. I know this thread its 100% trying to back MGS4 and I must say the games graphics are average in todays generation. Faces look nice I will say that Solid Snakes face is an amazing job.

Antikyth3ra

60fps. you can't convey that in a screeshot.

one cannot just cut off an issue by saying there's no "if"s, "and"s, or "but"s about it. If, for instance, MGS4 ran at only 30fps and was a very linear game made up of narrow corridors, that would be a reason to point out texture issues.

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JayPee89

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#14 JayPee89
Member since 2005 • 3488 Posts
People who complain about textures and anti aliasing are lame. To the nerds who do such things, instead of wasting so much time finding the section of the wall with teh god awful textures, or the garbage can with teh jaggies, why not focus on losing your virginity? :|
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Chilled_AB

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#15 Chilled_AB
Member since 2008 • 568 Posts
You have a point Fuzzy, man your threads are always awesome dude :)
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Teuf_

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#16 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts
NOOOOO...textures, textures textures!!!! Who cares about edge-aliasing, texture filtering, animation, post-processing...
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Luxen90

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#17 Luxen90
Member since 2006 • 7427 Posts
Another great topic by The fuzzysquash lol.
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fuzzysquash

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#18 fuzzysquash
Member since 2004 • 17374 Posts

NOOOOO...textures, textures textures!!!! Who cares about edge-aliasing, texture filtering, animation, post-processing...Teufelhuhn

Okay, Teuf has stepped into a thread about graphics...

backing away before my head explodes...

:P

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hockeyruler12

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#19 hockeyruler12
Member since 2005 • 8114 Posts

One of the best posts I have seen in a while. You should have included Killzone 2 in that list as well.

The way I see it, decent looking textures dont make a game look bad, but good textures make a game look good. Its like icing on the cake

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JiveT

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#20 JiveT
Member since 2005 • 8619 Posts

The most important thing about graphics to me is that they are functional and don't interfere with gameplay but enhance it.

A lot of people forget to throw in the gore in GEARS when they talk about graphics but it adds a lot to the visceral enjoyment of the game. Blowing someone in half with the shotgun, the gruesome headshots, and the other assorted carnage that can be visited on your opponent is quite grand.

I saw a dude get his head blown off while another guy shot him from the side with a shotgun and he did a headless "head" spin. Cracked me up.

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Coldplay07

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#21 Coldplay07
Member since 2002 • 4513 Posts
I've learned that I need to see a game played on a TV in front of me to really see what it looks like. Screens no longer do most games justice and even videos sometimes do not. As media changes more from screens to video it'll be a little better, but it's still different in person.
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Teuf_

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#22 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]NOOOOO...textures, textures textures!!!! Who cares about edge-aliasing, texture filtering, animation, post-processing...fuzzysquash

Okay, Teuf has stepped into a thread about graphics...

backing away before my head explodes...

:P



:lol:

You don't need to worry about me, according to the people of SW I have no idea what I'm talking about. :P
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Bluestorm-Kalas

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#23 Bluestorm-Kalas
Member since 2006 • 13073 Posts
Great thread, and also, Halo 3 has to be one of the best looking games I have ever played. I am constantly astonished at many of the graphical details.
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Hoobinator

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#24 Hoobinator
Member since 2006 • 6899 Posts

I swear it plays better in motion. Please believe me. :cry: Look past the textures it's a masterpiece, look at the depth of field effects and motion blur. Look at the poly count. :(

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fuzzysquash

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#25 fuzzysquash
Member since 2004 • 17374 Posts
[QUOTE="fuzzysquash"]

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]NOOOOO...textures, textures textures!!!! Who cares about edge-aliasing, texture filtering, animation, post-processing...Teufelhuhn

Okay, Teuf has stepped into a thread about graphics...

backing away before my head explodes...

:P



:lol:

You don't need to worry about me, according to the people of SW I have no idea what I'm talking about. :P

...that's how most people react when their life flashes before their eyes under the shadow of Teuf's Hammer of Ownage.

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fuzzysquash

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#26 fuzzysquash
Member since 2004 • 17374 Posts

Thank you for making a thread about this. People will listen to you because you're a big person here now. lol

Its been said countless times, but who's going to listen to the little people? Lol

Cedmln

:lol: I am not worthy...

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saywat11

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#27 saywat11
Member since 2007 • 596 Posts

I never post, but this threads deserves recognition.

great post, your one of the most well informed least fanboyish person i have seen in SW. keep it up.

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sonicmj1

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#28 sonicmj1
Member since 2003 • 9130 Posts

I swear it plays better in motion. Please believe me. :cry: Look past the textures it's a masterpiece, look at the depth of field effects and motion blur. Look at the poly count. :(

Hoobinator

What's happening in that image?

Is that a shopping cart?

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Wasdie

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#29 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

NOOOOO...textures, textures textures!!!! Who cares about edge-aliasing, texture filtering, animation, post-processing...Teufelhuhn

I care :(.

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Teuf_

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#30 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts
[QUOTE="Hoobinator"]

I swear it plays better in motion. Please believe me. :cry: Look past the textures it's a masterpiece, look at the depth of field effects and motion blur. Look at the poly count. :(

sonicmj1

What's happening in that image?

Is that a shopping cart?



No I think it's a shopping cart that's travelling between dimensions.
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PandaBear86

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#31 PandaBear86
Member since 2007 • 3389 Posts

Since PS3 and 360 both seem to have their technical limitations (compared to PCs), it is normal to see a game have good graphics in some ways, and bad graphics in others. For example, in Gears of War on the 360, the character models are awesome, but the textures on the walls are not so great (in my opinion). In other words, Epic downgraded wall textures in order to boost character models. On the other hand, Mass Effect on 360 seems to have good character models and environment textures, but the real problem is the framerate issues it suffers when you are in heavy action.

Console games will always have some drawbacks. Great graphics, but low framerates. Semi-great graphics, but cool framerate. Modest graphics, but totally awesome framerate. It depends on how the developer designs their game. If you want to avoid all these problems and get the best of all worlds (awesome tectures, resolution, framerate etc) get a high end PC :)

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linkinworm

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#32 linkinworm
Member since 2005 • 3134 Posts
still tho textures do make graphics look better, like on gears when it doesnt load everyhting online in one go and it loaded like 4 levels of textures,
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PandaBear86

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#33 PandaBear86
Member since 2007 • 3389 Posts

I swear it plays better in motion. Please believe me. :cry: Look past the textures it's a masterpiece, look at the depth of field effects and motion blur. Look at the poly count. :(

Hoobinator

I am not going to get any sleep tonight :P

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Hoobinator

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#34 Hoobinator
Member since 2006 • 6899 Posts
[QUOTE="Hoobinator"]

I swear it plays better in motion. Please believe me. :cry: Look past the textures it's a masterpiece, look at the depth of field effects and motion blur. Look at the poly count. :(

sonicmj1

What's happening in that image?

Is that a shopping cart?

Believe it or not it's an M&M driving a car. :lol:

It's from this.

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linkin_guy109

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#35 linkin_guy109
Member since 2005 • 8864 Posts
how long did this thread take you to make up?
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Delsage

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#36 Delsage
Member since 2004 • 3355 Posts
I am not going to read any comments in this one, you did a great job at posting this fuzzysquash, well done. :)
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XxICExX2

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#37 XxICExX2
Member since 2007 • 66 Posts

Pandabear86

I knew it would only be a matter of time until somebody posted about their platform of choice having this or doing what...Congradulations you are the first total fanboy to post on this thread!!!

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NAPK1NS

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#41 NAPK1NS
Member since 2004 • 14870 Posts
(Yet another) wonderful thread. :)
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linkin_guy109

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#42 linkin_guy109
Member since 2005 • 8864 Posts

(Yet another) wonderful thread. :)NAPK1NS

whoa....quadruple post much? :P

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Afrikanxl

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#43 Afrikanxl
Member since 2006 • 1112 Posts
the Barack Obama of SW...... thankx for this wonderful thread.... keep it up....
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fuzzysquash

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#44 fuzzysquash
Member since 2004 • 17374 Posts

how long did this thread take you to make up?linkin_guy109

I just made it up on a whim b/c I had one of those "oh ****" moments while playing Halo 3 :P

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fuzzysquash

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#45 fuzzysquash
Member since 2004 • 17374 Posts

the Barack Obama of SW...... thankx for this wonderful thread.... keep it up....Afrikanxl

Barack Obama? :lol:

That is far too high a standard of comparison for a person of my measly standing, but I appreciate the nod :)

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NAPK1NS

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#46 NAPK1NS
Member since 2004 • 14870 Posts

[QUOTE="NAPK1NS"](Yet another) wonderful thread. :)linkin_guy109

whoa....quadruple post much? :P

Haha, sorry. My computer was acting funny. :P

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hywel69

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#47 hywel69
Member since 2002 • 1086 Posts
Just to say I TOTALLY agree with you. I don't even like the PS3, but I still think the MGS game looks great visualy. "Cherry Pickers" make me laugh to be honest, cows, lemmings or whatever, it's just got to the point of insanity. Most of the side by side 360/PS3 shots I can hardly tell the difference. Moreover, I'd say increasing focus on" textures" makes games WORSE. Marketing people force the use of bigger textures for the sexy "money shot" to release to the press. If they don't do it, they get slated. The net result, is small levels and loading issues. Due to the pathetic 512MB memory that both Sony and MS decided on, both consoles have this problem. It's nice to see the GTAIV people stand up and just make lower rez, yes LOWER rez textures, so that we can enjoy bigger immersive worlds. I also support that stance they did with Halo 640P or whatever. Bigger World = More Fun Big Texture = Money Marketing Shot for Press = Small less imersive world with load times.
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hywel69

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#48 hywel69
Member since 2002 • 1086 Posts
I'm just thought how "Cherry Pickers" remind me of Bill O'Reilly, that dude comes up with any crap to push his agenda, it's embarrassing to watch him sometimes. Maybe someone should sticky this thread.
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killzowned24

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#49 killzowned24
Member since 2007 • 7345 Posts
I think the physics in Heavenly Sword BLOW away the best textures in Uncharted making HS better in graphics overall.
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clintos59

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#50 clintos59
Member since 2008 • 1320 Posts

I Agree and Disagree..

When a game has crappy textures it has crappy textures. There are no ands, its or buts about it. I know this thread its 100% trying to back MGS4 and I must say the games graphics are average in todays generation. Faces look nice I will say that Solid Snakes face is an amazing job.

Antikyth3ra

I know u have your opinion but to say that MGS4 game graphics looks average in todays generation? I mean seriously I dont know what u been looking at but it seems u been looking at more screens then video. I had the same problem looking at ninja gaiden 2 screens and not being really happy with the screens until I seen the gameplay in the temple of sacrafice, it totally made those screen shots look useless. Fuzzy is right screen shots dont justify a games true quality especially in MGS4, I mean yes some of those screens of MGS4 made me think hmm looks good but not awesome but after watching kojima demo the game, I was like WOWWWWWWWW just like when I first seen gears, so yeah.

Oh and great job again fuzzy on another well said thread and couldnt have agreed more.