Poll: PS4 1080p, X1 900p.. NX 720/768p?

Cheaper and release to more markets or at least hoping to be more attractive to a larger market and/or developing nations (IDK the politically correct term for lower earning parts of the world)?

If true it will fail just as bad, or worse than the Wii U.

Unless they can pull another gimmick on the level of the Wii-Mote out their asses then there is no point to release a console that can't even match the PS4 in power.

For starters, DDR4 > GDDR5.

It's highly likely that NX will be more powerful than existing consoles. While most effects will be similar to other consoles due to publisher parity issues, NX will likely allow higher resolution and higher framerate. For instance, it may actually run 1080p without dropping below 30 fps all the time, unlike PS4.

So a more expensive console?

I have a feeling that if NX releases at $ 249 and performs better/slightly better than PS4/X1, Sony/MS could just do a price adjustment to $ 299/249 hampering the NX sales potential out of the gate.

I guess that's a good thing but maybe the scene would be completely different upon NX launch.

Again, I'm trying to make sense of the NX in terms of the home console. It will be released right when the PS4/XB1 are hitting their stride. The NX most likely won't have much of a price advantage, because the PS4/XB1 will most likely be priced around $299.99 by the time the NX home console launches. Unless the NX is going to sell for like $199.99 the price gap won't be that big. Then there is the issue of the possibility that the NX won't even be as powerful as a console released in 2013. This thing has failure written all over it.

@j2zon2591

Recent AMD GCN designs for GPU and IGPs has ROPS delta compression improvements e.g. Tonga GPU, Fury GPU, Carrizo APU.

256bit DDR4-3000 delivers 96 GB/s of raw bandwidth. ROPS' delta compression improvements can improve effective bandwidth by about 1.5X i.e. it enable Tonga GPU with 256bit memory width to keep up with the older Tahiti GPU with 384bit memory width.

Fastest DDR4 is DDR4-4000 variant e.g. Trident Z and Ripjaws V series.

About half of XBO's APU chip area size is taken by 32 MB ESRAM. With ROPS detla compression, Nintendo can ditch 32MB ESRAM and have a chip size that is about half of XBO's APU with comparable performance i.e. active 12 CUs.

The statement

The NX is definitely not aiming to compete with the likes of PS4 on a power level

Could be interpreted to

1. NX's hardware significantly stronger than PS4.

2. NX's hardware is less than PS4, but greater than XBO.

Carrizo APU includes Tonga' improvements e.g. tessellation units, 8 ACE units (PS4 has this improvement), ROPS delta compression.

Carrizo APU has 35 watts with 2 module/4 threads CPU and 8 CU at 800Mhz i.e. improvements with performance per watt.

AMD Jaguar replacement AMD Puma+ CPU has improved turbo overclocking features and performance per watt.

Easily attainable specs

CPU: AMD Puma+

Memory: 256bit DDR4-3000 to 3400Mhz

GPU: Active 12 CU with Tonga's improvements i.e. delta compression, tessellation, 8 ACE units with clock speeds of 900Mhz to 950Mhz. Current Mobile R9-M385X (14 CU, AMD Bonaire) has 1100Mhz clock speeds.

Current AMD Bonaire doesn't have Tonga's improvements.

For starters, GDDR5 > DDR4.

I guess that's possible..

Maybe.

3. PS4 statement also may consider the X1 thus also not as powerful as both systems.

So DDR4 4000. I wonder if Nintendo can order that for a low price by 2016.

@j2zon2591:

3. In power terms, XBO doesn't compete against PS4 i.e. 1.31 TFLOPS vs 1.84 TFLOPS.

925Mhz active 12 CU (AMD Bonaire 14 CU potential + Tonga's improvements) would deliver 1.42 TFLOPS which still under PS4, but greater than XBO.

The key is deliver consistent memory bandwidth around 96 GB/s + delta compression instead of XBO's 68 GB/s with tiny 32 MB ESRAM with 208GB/s (peak, 140-150 GB/s reached). XBO's complexity yields greater performance inconsistencies, hence the complexity is transferred to developer's skill set.

The other improvements would be AMD's wholesale move towards HBM in 2016 i.e. from APU to GPUs.

For FX-8800p APU's chip size, 14 nm GoFlo would yield 4X the space area for transistor budget i.e. it can turn FX-8800p APU's 8 CU to 32 CU mini-monster which needs HBM to feed it since PC standard's 128bit DDR4 would not be enough. This would fulfill my first point. Nintendo can join AMD's fleet/budget PC OEM partners in year 2016.

Isn't 8800p with 8 CU at 28nm and reducing to 14nm space area could mean harder to cram 32 CU or is the 32 CU from a different architecture (not Carrizo)?

Then again, NX probably has a custom chip (for DDR4 controller?) since it seems 8800p only has DDR3?

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-FX-8800P-Notebook-Processor-Specifications-and-Benchmarks.144074.0.html

It wouldn't surprise me if they released another underpowered system that couldn't achieve 1080p in the vast majority of its games. I hope they don't, but it's possible.

Nintendo games will be almost all 1080p, but regardless of the systems capabilities, the question is if third parties will bother trying to get the best out of the system when they will inevitably be outsold by first party.

"Harder to cram" does not change the fact AMD is shifting to the next process node in year 2016.

For year 2016, Nintendo should not release a box that is worst than 14 nm based AMD APU fleet OEM desktop PC i.e. what's the point going towards semi-custom path when certain fleet OEM PC is superior?

DDR4 support is in AMD's year 2016 road map.

I see. Have there been any leaks of a 14nm 8800p-esque APU with 32 CU slated for 2016? Just curious.

Depends on what their power target is and/or if they'll do some semi-custom for also considering security reasons.

I remember some people saying PS4/X1 will be hacked for piracy asap because it's an x86 and/or your usual Desktop parts but that never happened (yet). Would it be possible that it's because the x86 hardware in the PS4/X1 aren't exactly the same as your over the shelf desktop parts.

http://techreport.com/news/28190/leaked-amd-roadmap-schedules-14-nm-bonanza-for-2016

AMD BristolRidge APU replaces Godavai and Carrizo APUs. AMD's Bristol code name is similar to UK based code names such as PS4's Liverpool APU.

Recent AMD APU designs has ARM based security processor, hence it's harder to crack.

@ronvalencia said:

@j2zon2591 said:

@ronvalencia said:

@j2zon2591 said:

@ronvalencia said:

@j2zon2591:

3. In power terms, XBO doesn't compete against PS4 i.e. 1.31 TFLOPS vs 1.84 TFLOPS.

925Mhz active 12 CU (AMD Bonaire 14 CU potential + Tonga's improvements) would deliver 1.42 TFLOPS which still under PS4, but greater than XBO.

The key is deliver consistent memory bandwidth around 96 GB/s + delta compression instead of XBO's 68 GB/s with tiny 32 MB ESRAM with 208GB/s (peak, 140-150 GB/s reached). XBO's complexity yields greater performance inconsistencies, hence the complexity is transferred to developer's skill set.

The other improvements would be AMD's wholesale move towards HBM in 2016 i.e. from APU to GPUs.

For FX-8800p APU's chip size, 14 nm GoFlo would yield 4X the space area for transistor budget i.e. it can turn FX-8800p APU's 8 CU to 32 CU mini-monster which needs HBM to feed it since PC standard's 128bit DDR4 would not be enough. This would fulfill my first point. Nintendo can join AMD's fleet/budget PC OEM partners in year 2016.

Isn't 8800p with 8 CU at 28nm and reducing to 14nm space area could mean harder to cram 32 CU or is the 32 CU from a different architecture (not Carrizo)?

Then again, NX probably has a custom chip (for DDR4 controller?) since it seems 8800p only has DDR3?

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-FX-8800P-Notebook-Processor-Specifications-and-Benchmarks.144074.0.html

"Harder to cram" does not change the fact AMD is shifting to the next process node in year 2016.

For year 2016, Nintendo should not release a box that is worst than 14 nm based AMD APU fleet OEM desktop PC i.e. what's the point going towards semi-custom path when certain fleet OEM PC is superior?

DDR4 support is in AMD's year 2016 road map.

I see. Have there been any leaks of a 14nm 8800p-esque APU with 32 CU slated for 2016? Just curious.

Depends on what their power target is and/or if they'll do some semi-custom for also considering security reasons.

I remember some people saying PS4/X1 will be hacked for piracy asap because it's an x86 and/or your usual Desktop parts but that never happened (yet). Would it be possible that it's because the x86 hardware in the PS4/X1 aren't exactly the same as your over the shelf desktop parts.

http://techreport.com/news/28190/leaked-amd-roadmap-schedules-14-nm-bonanza-for-2016

Thanks. So I should be looking at Bristol Ridge?

If Nintendo wants the most seamless multi-platform development from 3rd party, do they go for custom 8 core Bristol Ridge? Only says up to 4 cores there.. unless 1 zen core = 2 PS4/X1 CPU core. They did say 40% IPC improvement.. Maybe 6 Zen cores?

Do we have more info on Zen's GPU? I guess when you say 32 CU a while ago, that doesn't have to be 4 times the current 8800p's GPU? AFAIK sometimes, when architecture changes, 1 core don't perform the same as the previous core.

Seems AMD APUs on Desktop have high clockspeeds compared to PS4/X1 but the PS4/X1 have more cores so, again, if they want as seamless as possible for 3rd party, couldn't they go for 8 Zen cores with clockspeeds/IPC matching previous Jaguars.. a custom setup compared to 2016 Desktop/Laptop/etc. AMD APUs.

@j2zon2591:

AMD Zen CPU has hyper-threading (SMT) features and designed to be a big core X86 CPU like Intel's Core i series.

A four core AMD Zen would have 8 threads just like laptop/desktop Intel Core i7 SKUs.

My comments for 32 CU assumes zero growth on the CPU side e.g sticking with two Excavator CPU modules.

AMD's Carrizo APU die layout with 28nm GoFlo. Note that 28nm GoFlo acts like 20 nm TSMC.

14 nm would effectively give the designers 4X the area space within the existing chip area size.

You can play with AMD's IP blocks from Carrizo and Carrizo-L (with Puma+ CPU) to guess the NX hardware. AMD Jaguar/Puma CPU size is similar to ARM A15 i.e. tiny.

Scaling geometry would be different on 28nm TSMC to 16nm TSMC.

Scaling between different chip designs.

@ronvalencia said:

http://techreport.com/news/28190/leaked-amd-roadmap-schedules-14-nm-bonanza-for-2016

AMD BristolRidge APU replaces Godavai and Carrizo APUs. AMD's Bristol code name is similar to UK based code names such as PS4's Liverpool APU.

Recent AMD APU designs has ARM based security processor, hence it's harder to crack.

Looks like RIP AM3+ 2016 -_- no more upgrade path for me. :P

@superbuuman:

AM3+ has a long life socket support. My May 2014 Intel Haswell socket will be replace by yet another pin change new Skylake socket in Aug 2015.

Nintendo made the WiiU that was around the power level of the 360.

Im sure NX will be about or at the level of X1 in graphics, doubt about the functionality tho.

@ronvalencia said:

@j2zon2591:

AMD Zen CPU has hyper-threading (SMT) features and designed to be a big core X86 CPU like Intel's Core i series.

A four core AMD Zen would have 8 threads just like laptop/desktop Intel Core i7 SKUs.

My comments for 32 CU assumes zero growth on the CPU side e.g sticking with two Excavator CPU modules.

AMD's Carrizo APU die layout with 28nm GoFlo. Note that 28nm GoFlo acts like 20 nm TSMC.

14 nm would effectively give the designers 4X the area space within the existing chip area size.

You can play with AMD's IP blocks from Carrizo and Carrizo-L (with Puma+ CPU) to guess the NX hardware. AMD Jaguar/Puma CPU size is similar to ARM A15 i.e. tiny.

Scaling geometry would be different on 28nm TSMC to 16nm TSMC.

Scaling between different chip designs.

Very interesting share. I always thought that when one says 14nm, it meant literally 14nm but it seem to depend on different packages.

First 3 are 28nm but actually different sized packages/SoCs.

So Zen has something like HT too? Hmm.. I remember a while back where people were arguing that AMD doesn't have true cores but only "half" even before the PS4/X1 release.. maybe Bulldozer and newer? This was after the Phenoms where each "core" where "true full cores".

that would be a nice joke. why even release a new console when it does 40 more p's?! LOL But with Nintendo i wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

they wont.

@j2zon2591:

FYI, the last picture was just the CPU cores not the entire SoC.

AMD Zen supports SMT which replaces Bulldozer's CMT.

AMD Zen's unified decoder enables improved IPC per thread.

@ronvalencia said:

@j2zon2591:

FYI, the last picture was just the CPU cores not the entire SoC.

AMD Zen supports SMT which replaces Bulldozer's CMT.

AMD Zen's unified decoder enables improved IPC per thread.

Thanks. Yeah. They said 40% IPC improvement but we'll see how they came to that number later on.

So, resolution matters now consolites?

To some certain extent, resolution is important. One of the few reasons why PS4 is winning i.e. reasonable GPU performance and good pricing enables Sony to outsell XBO and WiiU.

Sony's game plan is simple i.e. offer the best GPU bias machine for about $399 USD.

Nintendo could have countered PS4 with $399 with a better GPU i.e. XBO is using a larger chip that can support 28 CU GPU in-place of 32 MB ESRAM. Radeon HD R9-285 is reachable and this design is AMD's current flagship mobile GPU.

Radeon HD 78x0 16 CU/20 CU and PS4 18 CU level was AMD's former mobile flag-chip GPU level solution.

AMD Radeon HD R9-285 (aka Radeon R9 M295X) mobile variant is being shipped with Apple's 27 inch iMacs.

Out of curiosity, how many PS4 games are actually 1080p?

To be fair, in games DDR4 isn't that drastic over DDR3.

@intotheminx:

System memory bandwidth has greater influence for IGP setup. We can't use examples from PCs with separate video memory.

There's not really any way to say yay or nay in this DDR4 > GDDR5 argument, because all the direct comparisons are against DDR3 and are being used fully as system memory. Really you need to be able to compare DDR4 directly against GDDR5 in a graphics processing scenario.

Would DDR4 be any more capable than GDDR5, if it was fitted to a graphics card?

IDK if this is legit:

http://www.ign.com/wikis/xbox-one/PS4_vs._Xbox_One_Native_Resolutions_and_Framerates

The Order should be 1920x800p (black bar)

Not at all, DDR4 3200 is like 25 GB/s compared to the 176 GB/s in the Ps4 (and you know something like the 980 is roughly double that). Basically it's exactly like the XDR memory in the Ps3 from '06 was speed wise. But, the combination of DDR4 and a newer eDRAM than say what's in Wii U would beat GDDR5.

We may be seeing the end of plain jane DDR memory in consoles though thanks to HBM, I would think that would be cheaper than super fast DDR4 + eDRAM and would save on Chipset space.

When did you just call 900pStation, 1080p machine?

Yea, I know..just hope FM3 will bring in more fully equipped mATX mobos..like Intel & AMD FM2+ sockets.. AM3+ had really crap choices for mATX mobos, will be going for a smaller & more power efficient gaming builds nowadays. ;) Yea Intel has gone a little crazy with socket change. :P

256bit DDR4-3200 would deliver 102.4 GB/s and we have to factor in Tonga's ROPS delta compression improvements.

I agree with your HBM statements and I'll bet HBM will replace AMD's current on-chip package GDDR5 embedded GPUs.