P2M - The best game of Gen7, feathers will be rufffled

@getyeryayasout: Nice, reviews seem positive so far too.

I'm going to pick up the PS4 version along with Target's $25 off on PS+ and sell the game. At least I can say I owned it :P

What are you guys podcasting about?

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/culturehousedaily/2014/05/gaming-isnt-art-and-those-who-think-it-is-need-to-chill-out/

Might I recommend finally tackling that subject. I mean I don't blame you for not taking part in that topic in that hornets nest liquid felt like kicking, but I'd imagine you eroica and human beings(allegedly) would like to argue against said editorial.

i am, picked up the Dedsec edition

Would be down to do that cast if you guys ever want me back on. :o

@DarkLink77: done... I'll be in touch.

Sounds like a good show to me.

Depending on what day you guys decide to record it, could I possibly tag along in the discussion?

@Minishdriveby: indeed brother. Maybe this Thursday at 9 eastern if that works for all parties.

@TheEroica: That works for me.

That will probably work. It'll be good to be back.

@jg4xchamp: Some of the statements in that editorial don't really make much sense to me, especially the penultimate paragraph that films by Chris Marker shouldn't be viewed as art because they lose meaning when looking at quick snippets in an art gallery...

It's a cute way of pointing out that while he did make some impressive and unique documentaries, they don't hold any weight when judged on their own merits.

Singular parts or even the whole don't have anything else to say that isn't really built on someone else's shit. Their powerful in their medium, because of his unique structure to create an entertaining documentary. As a fundamental piece of reflection or anything like that? it's empty by comparison to a more nuanced flick.

I haven't seen any of Chris Marker's documentaries, but documentaries, although based on following someone else's shit, in my opinion, can still be very much viewed as art, One of the main purposes of the documentary is to cause reflection and highlight something that needs brought to attention, and it takes a skillful director to make an interesting and unique documentary. Anyway, I'm sort of talking out of my ass, having not seen any of the films, but the way it was worded in the article made it seem as if those films shouldn't be considered art because when wading through an art gallery there is no context of reference for vertical slices and that you cannot take the work in its entirety, which I think is actually a slight discredit to all art if the assumption is you can take art work in in its entirety through just "wander[ing] in and out of galleries,"

I love listening to solid conversation and debate on a topic like this (in drastic contrast to system wars). Well done guys

Now what would it take for you guys to change your top 3 to

1) Batman Arkham City

2) Donkey Kong Country Returns

3) Super Street Fighter 4

I'm kidding of course, but I do wonder what would happen if I entered into a mature debate with two others while fighting for these three games.

Arkham City was great, the argument could be made.

Man you're speaking to someone who respects that word about as much as he respects Dear Esther(what it's not Mafia 2 tier, very few things are).

But from my understanding of the article, and that camp is more what is "art" proper. As oppose to this modern movement where we associate story telling with an art form. The film comparison goes beyond that, from my understanding of that persons writing, and some of its audience, they'd go a step further and tell you films aren't "art" either. It's a word that's been given some absurd pedestal over time because we need to validate our enjoyment of fiction so we give it this status as something more profound, compelling, and useful than it really is. Reality is: art is about one of most meaningless things you can accomplish, at least in the stance it's used.

I'm not fond of reductionist descriptions of something being art, good, great, excellent, bad, poor, etc. I prefer to know the why and the how. I figured Eroica would enjoy shooting the shit(plus he didn't take part in the shit show thread we had for it on Endlessbacklog) out of that subject because he is a believer in games as "art". More importantly, I enjoy seeing which SW members would actually provide a meaningful contribution to that topic, or would just bitch and moan and be like "SO SO SO SO LAST OF US ISNT ART? THATS WHAT WE ARE SAYING RIGHT NOW. THE LAST OF US ISNT ART. BUT TRANSFORMERS IS? **** OUTTA HERE".

Because that line of thinking is always amusing for how dumb it is.

I think this conversation does have a place in our medium, because I think the critics are always necessary. You need a group of people that will put the medium under the microscope. I also think we should be more worried about taking care of the words that actually matter, and not some pedestal we created because Roger Ebert said games are a poor story telling medium(which so far he's correct on, by default the medium is still bottom of the barrel against the more organic story telling mediums).

Edit: apologies for rambling, it's a habit. But one of the deep underlying issues here is the following. The people who argue for the other artistic mediums are at least cultured when it comes to other things beyond their medium. They show a range of thoughts and opinions, and stances and understanding of other art work and entertainment mediums.

The big issue from the gaming side is that gamings critics, defenders, journalists, might be some of the uncultured critics in any medium. You're probably reading this and thinking Champ jumped the shark on that one, but no, I'd be on point with that one. Too much of it is built around arguments of making loose comparisons that don't hold similar value. And then when a counter comparison is made, it's mocked at like NO BRO, YOU JUST DONT GET GAMES.

But the harsh reality remains the same. This medium has more in common with Checkers and Monopoly than it does with a painting, sculpture, or even theater.

Can I get in on this?

I'm excited to chat about this more in depth on the podcast. For that reason, I don't really want to give my position on the subject away that much because I want to save what I have to say for when we're all just having a conversation about it. I definitely agree it's a good topic to talk about because it's a complex topic. I feel like the discussion later this week isn't going to be whether video games are art but rather what the **** is art? It's a very complex concept, and there have been many ways of defining what art is. There are various categories and subcategories to try to make classification distinctions to define the term.

Do I think video games are art? Yes, but I think very few things are not art. Another question that the article touches on that I think would be good to talk about is high art and low art, distinctions between the two, and where video games fit in the mix.

I've been looking into the topic and talking about it with my ex-roommate who's an art history major this past weekend as well as just reading up on things to talk about during the podcast. One thing I read about was the difference between Videogame Art and Art Games. To bring your checkers analogy back into the mix, board games such as checkers, chess, and monopoly can have artwork incorporated into them, such as ornate pieces, while not being considered 'art' themselves. In other words, components can be art, but the whole is not viewed as such.

I think the only critical downfall Ebert had in his argument against games being art is that they can be beaten. He explained this very poorly and for such a prestigious writer, it seemed to be a point where he's grasping for straws.

Otherwise, I can see both sides of the arguments he brings up. I also think people masquerading Shadow of the Colossus as the deepest form of art found in this medium is stupid since they either piggyback the opinions of others or don't understand the way art is being talked about.

@jg4xchamp: @clyde46: @Blabadon:

Sounds like a great show for this week. Can everyone make it?

Lets not get all revisionist about this. He was a popular critic, borderline iconic in that regard.

He however had a tendency to completely miss the fucking point when it came to any film with a modicum of depth to it.

You should join us sometime, we would love to have you.

I never liked Ebert, never understood how his opinions carried so much weight because some of the stuff he wrote was way off

Isn't this all we can do basically these days? No opinion is truly unique anymore and with the invention of the internet you will ALWAYS find people who have the exact same sentiments as you despite how obscure it may even be. Sure it's not exactly piggbacking that way but it's always gonna seem that way

@Heil68: I'll be there.

Thursday?

Yup, 9pm EST/8PM CST

We'll have a MS and SONY show next Monday for E3 too if you would like to join that too,

@seanmcloughlin: I think you already said what I'm going to iterate here, but there are two different things. There is the inevitable sharing an opinion, because even people who are a one in a million are the same as like 7,000 other people, and piggybacking other opinions.

Like if I were to discuss the (Shadow of the Colossus spoilers) loss of Agro in depth, and show the symbolism and ideas that moment had, it would be in-depth. Similarly, some jackwad could present it to someone, say Ebert, and go "well this moment was emotional and it showed the character's growth!" and simplify it to a stupid extreme. Ya know what I'm saying?

Also yesterday I was watching some of your old videos, You Don't Know Jack reviews of Tomb Raider, Hotline Miami, old vlogs. Entertaining stuff.

I'll try to, i gotta do EB stuff.

I'm hoping to get my adsense account running(shit is taking way longer than it should) and then set up ad words account. Also probably finish Van Helsing, and AND, still do my day job ;p

But yeah this Thursday i will probably be free. We can shoot the shit.

Sounds great!

We can preach the true by gamers, for gamers mantra at Sony.

While Microsoft and Nintendo were creating glorified sequels to connect 4, Sony was creating art bro. World class, barn burning, trail blazing, Mt. Pious crowning, profound impact having art.

hahahahaa, LOVE it!

Alright i am set to be on the next episode if you want me

Sounds good! Thursday night 9pm EST/8pm CST.

I cant be on tonight, forgot I had something planned. You guys can go ahead and do the show with @TheEroica and @Animal-Mother.

I'll rep team sony for both of us

Will you guys livestream it?

If Eroica contacts me, yes.