Okay, how many of you are actually buying into the Cloud Processing concept?

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PraetorianMan

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#1 PraetorianMan
Member since 2011 • 2073 Posts

I've seen a worrying number of posters here refer to the cloud as "unlimited power", or "the future of gaming" or whatever.

Unfortunately I cannot really tell who is and is not being sarcastic.

 

Allow me to briefly quote what I have already written on the subject in another thread:

That said, please stop talking about Cloud processing as if it means anything. It doesn't. People are starting to treat it like how Sony treated the CELL processor, hyping it up as a game changer when in reality it amounted to almost nothing as claimed. This is actually WORSE than the Cell though. The Cell at the very least was a real, physical thing that could be quantified. Cloud processing is a pipe dream that will never be used as advertised.

First of all, Cloud Processing entails a very real, literal "always online" requirement. For multiplayer-only games this really isn't a problem assuming that the game is relying on the cloud processor for almost nothing. If you try to get a cloud processor to start doing a LOT of work [i.e. quadrupling the Xbox 1's GPU output for example] you start to encounter a lot of problems.

The more crap that a game demands the cloud processor do, the faster and more reliable of an internet connection will be requried to do it. This makes actual serious cloud processing far worse than normal "always online" DRM. With DRM the server only needs to know that you're there. You can do that with a 56k connection. If you want the server to actually, you know, do stuff and to have significant amounts of information relayed back and forth between your console and their servers constantly you need something more. To get enough power to increase the Xbox 1's power up to the PS4's GPU power I'm going to guess that you need a VERY fast, and VERY reliable internet connection. As in, if your connection slows down during prime time you're screwed.

There are additional problems associated with that. Why would a game developer ever even want to use the cloud if there's going to be so few people who can even get it to work? They're going to leave themselves stranded with a very small potential target audience. MS recently stated that the Cloud could theoretically quadruple the XB1's power. Great, if there was ever a game developed that actually required that kind of juice from the cloud they'll probably be lucky if they sell 10K copies worldwide. The more you want the cloud processor to do, the worse these problems get.

There's also the issue of natural internet latency, which I guess I kind of covered already but screw it. Even very fast internet connections are too damn slow. The highest speed internet available at the consumer level still transfers data a crap ton slower than it is through a computer's motherboard. By the time a cloud processor does its work and relays the information back to your console, its too late. You're sure as hell not going to be playing anything at 60fps when using the cloud. Too many frames will have gone by the time the info reaches your console.

 

Of course there is always the future aspect, surely internet connections of the future will be powerful enough, and prevalent enough, for this to become practical? Well, yeah probably but its still stupid. APUs and RAM grow in power exponentially faster than internet speeds do. By the time it actually does become practical to get a cloud processor to do 40x the work of a 360, that will be such a trivial amount that no one will care. By the time that we have the internet infrastructure to get the XB1's GPU to match the PS4's GPU, GPU tech will have advanced so far that no one will give a damn. There will NEVER come a time where cloud processing is actually prefered for the use of actual processing. Simply installing better hardware will always be the better option. The only use that cloud processing will ever have is always-online DRM, and for that you really don't need the cloud to do much at all.

 

TL;DRCloud processing is a useless pipe dream that will never actually be useable for seriously increasing your system's power. Its only practical function will be to enforce always-online DRM.

 

So far I've only had one person correct me on the technicalities of this statement. Cloud processing CAN be useful for basic lighting and texture work, as the latency issues that internet connections face wouldn't be as serious of a problem. Apparently Nintendo is going to attept to use cloud processing for similar purposes.

 

Basic texture and lighting work is not what MS or some of the lems here are trying to hype up though. Evidently some people honestly believe MS's claims thatthe cloud can "Quadruple the power of the Xbox One" [or something to that effect]. For those of you who do believe this: Are you f***ing crazy!? For the reasons I described above, the use of a cloud processor to do actual hard computational and latency-intolerant work is completely impossible in the current consumer market.

I would like to point out to all of you that the average US internet speed in late 2012 was only 7.4mbps. You want to "quadruple the Xbox One", which apparently uses 68.3gbps from just the RAM alone, over an internet connection? What? Am I crazy or is something horribly wrong here?

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Heil68

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#2 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60714 Posts
I do. MS will never have to release another console ever, they can just harness the power of teh cloudz. Will save xbox fans a ton of money down the road.
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Nike_Air

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#3 Nike_Air
Member since 2006 • 19733 Posts

I'm not a rocket scientist , so I can't even guess. Maybe Carmack could explain it to me.

 

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PraetorianMan

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#4 PraetorianMan
Member since 2011 • 2073 Posts

Only 5 votes in so far but I'm somehow the ONLY one one who hasn't choosen the "always on DRM" option in the poll.

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deactivated-5d7fb49ded561

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#5 deactivated-5d7fb49ded561
Member since 2010 • 4019 Posts

cloudboxone.jpg

332rof6.jpg.

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Krelian-co

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#6 Krelian-co
Member since 2006 • 13274 Posts

I do. MS will never have to release another console ever, they can just harness the power of teh cloudz. Will save xbox fans a ton of money down the road. Heil68

TEH CLOUDDDDDDDDDDDD :lol:

Future balmer making his xbots believe his hype

244b3c76_unlimited-power_opt.jpeg

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Riverwolf007

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#7 Riverwolf007
Member since 2005 • 26023 Posts

95% marketing hype.

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Bigboi500

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#8 Bigboi500
Member since 2007 • 35550 Posts

Useless gimmick.

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PraetorianMan

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#9 PraetorianMan
Member since 2011 • 2073 Posts

95% marketing hype.

Riverwolf007
If you want to actually do the math between quadrupling the Xbox One and doing very basic textures and lighting, the difference would probably be a lot worse than 95% hype.
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Gxgear

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#10 Gxgear
Member since 2003 • 10425 Posts

The tech right now isn't even good enough for consistent cloud streaming (between demographic, region, service), I'd like to see how MS pulls this off.

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PraetorianMan

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#11 PraetorianMan
Member since 2011 • 2073 Posts

Oh Dear God someone actually chose "unlimited power" in the poll. I really hope that they were kidding.

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PraetorianMan

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#12 PraetorianMan
Member since 2011 • 2073 Posts

Just did some basic, preliminary math.

quadrupling the Xbox One's power would require 273.2 gb/s, or 279757 mb/s.

Verizon FiOS, which currently is just about the fastest internet service available on the commercial market is only 35mb/s.

This means that you would need an internet speed ~7993X faster than FiOS.

Yeah, uh no. Not happening. By the time internet tech has evolved to be that fast quadrupling the X1's power will be a completely trivial amount. Cloud Processing is USELESS and has no real future.

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CJ_ofCamelot

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#13 CJ_ofCamelot
Member since 2013 • 2072 Posts

Oh Dear God someone actually chose "unlimited power" in the poll. I really hope that they were kidding.

PraetorianMan
Riverwolf007 LOL
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navyguy21

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#14 navyguy21  Online
Member since 2003 • 17426 Posts
Oh good grief people, let it go!
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Ly_the_Fairy

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#15 Ly_the_Fairy
Member since 2011 • 8541 Posts

I don't see why not.

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LJS9502_basic

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#16 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178846 Posts
Hype meant to confuse the ignorant and distract them while MS takes their money.
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XxAK47xX

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#17 XxAK47xX
Member since 2005 • 5003 Posts

I'm not a rocket scientist , so I can't even guess. Maybe Carmack could explain it to me.

 

Nike_Air

no this is rocket science level shit here! we need Morgan Freeman. if he can explain it, then thats another freckle earned!

just kidding. No this cloud stuff if used proporly can really make a difference. 

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NEWMAHAY

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#18 NEWMAHAY
Member since 2012 • 3824 Posts
Did we need another thread about cloud?
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shadowlusterx

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#19 shadowlusterx
Member since 2008 • 295 Posts
The cloud could be used for stuff like AI and maybe just maybe if implemented correctly realistic physics. It will not enhance graphics at all.
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shadowlusterx

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#20 shadowlusterx
Member since 2008 • 295 Posts

Just did some basic, preliminary math.

quadrupling the Xbox One's power would require 273.2 gb/s, or 279757 mb/s.

Verizon FiOS, which currently is just about the fastest internet service available on the commercial market is only 35mb/s.

This means that you would need an internet speed ~7993X faster than FiOS.

Yeah, uh no. Not happening. By the time internet tech has evolved to be that fast quadrupling the X1's power will be a completely trivial amount. Cloud Processing is USELESS and has no real future.

PraetorianMan
Wat? How the hell is bandwidth a measure of power?
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KarateeeChop

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#21 KarateeeChop
Member since 2010 • 4666 Posts

X1, first console to harness the power of the cloud. a small step for man, a giant step for mankind. 

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k2theswiss

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#22 k2theswiss
Member since 2007 • 16599 Posts

has long has they understand that my T.V can have the CLOUD!@!

 

whats soo funny if it relied on cloud it would require 100% connection

24HR connection is just light ass online DMR! 

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Mr720fan

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#23 Mr720fan
Member since 2013 • 2795 Posts
I do for certain things, in game ads up to the date on presentation for a sports game etc, large scale maps changing,AI more evolved can be much with cloud. It all comes down to latency, this is why MMOs could work with cloud like turn based gameplay, it gives the time that he cloud needs. It's a nice thing if they evolve it
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PraetorianMan

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#25 PraetorianMan
Member since 2011 • 2073 Posts

[QUOTE="PraetorianMan"]

Just did some basic, preliminary math.

quadrupling the Xbox One's power would require 273.2 gb/s, or 279757 mb/s.

Verizon FiOS, which currently is just about the fastest internet service available on the commercial market is only 35mb/s.

This means that you would need an internet speed ~7993X faster than FiOS.

Yeah, uh no. Not happening. By the time internet tech has evolved to be that fast quadrupling the X1's power will be a completely trivial amount. Cloud Processing is USELESS and has no real future.

shadowlusterx

Wat? How the hell is bandwidth a measure of power?

Not really a measurement of power in a literal sense. There is the implication that you need these astronomically high internet speeds in order to get the amount of data that 40 xbox's can process to your console in fast enough of a time that latency doesn't become an issue.

 

In this scenario, a slow internet speed would be equivalent to a shockingly bad RAM bottleneck. You could theoretically have the cloud CPU or GPU do insane amounts of work, but the slow internet speed would prevent you from doing anything useful with it.

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Ly_the_Fairy

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#27 Ly_the_Fairy
Member since 2011 • 8541 Posts

has long has they understand that my T.V can have the CLOUD!@!

 

whats soo funny if it relied on cloud it would require 100% connection

24HR connection is just light ass online DMR! 

k2theswiss

I don't think you understand the concept of DRM.

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meetroid8

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#28 meetroid8
Member since 2005 • 21152 Posts

244b3c76_unlimited-power_opt.jpeg

Cloud Processing is the ultimate leap in technology. 

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lamprey263

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#29 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44564 Posts
I don't imagine MS's cloud is designed like OnLive or Gaikai for streaming games. Rather I suspect MS's cloud is designed to expand the XBL community across the globe, by either building their networks to cut down on latency for multiplayer games maybe taking less pressure of developers and publishers to host online multiplayer servers, maybe also expanding on the number of players in multiplayer games, hosting user videos, and part of me hopes it means accessing ones purchases game content online like is done with Steam, such as when rights are tied online to the account, so in future installation of games can be effortless. For instance, once games are installed the HDD they can stay there without the need for disc, then when the user wants to install new games they can free up HDD space through easy deletion of installed files, but since their rights are still tied to the account maybe then can later install games in the background like Steam does quite effortlessly by downloading online. Cloud is just a loose term for them handling the dirty work. I don't think they'd be flaunting the number of servers if unless they had something in mind for it.
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shadowlusterx

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#31 shadowlusterx
Member since 2008 • 295 Posts

[QUOTE="shadowlusterx"][QUOTE="PraetorianMan"]

Just did some basic, preliminary math.

quadrupling the Xbox One's power would require 273.2 gb/s, or 279757 mb/s.

Verizon FiOS, which currently is just about the fastest internet service available on the commercial market is only 35mb/s.

This means that you would need an internet speed ~7993X faster than FiOS.

Yeah, uh no. Not happening. By the time internet tech has evolved to be that fast quadrupling the X1's power will be a completely trivial amount. Cloud Processing is USELESS and has no real future.

PraetorianMan

Wat? How the hell is bandwidth a measure of power?

Not really a measurement of power in a literal sense. There is the implication that you need these astronomically high internet speeds in order to get the amount of data that 40 xbox's can process to your console in fast enough of a time that latency doesn't become an issue.

 

In this scenario, a slow internet speed would be equivalent to a shockingly bad RAM bottleneck. You could theoretically have the cloud CPU or GPU do insane amounts of work, but the slow internet speed would prevent you from doing anything useful with it.

It doesn't work like that. Just because you're processing more does not necessarily mean that you have more data to send. Also, you're making the assumption that after it goes through the internet, it'll instantly be in the RAM (Or wherever you're placing it?) while that is not the case, and the bandwidth of the hardware in the servers will still have an effect. You're also implying that the same type of processing will be done, but with internet ping being in milliseconds AT THE MINIMUM but hardware latency being in nanoseconds that's just completely and utterly impossible. Cloud processing doesn't seem to work the way you're thinking.
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Basinboy

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#32 Basinboy
Member since 2003 • 14496 Posts

Nothing more than marketing buzz to draw attention away from Sony's spec advantage.  So many variables get introduced trying to pull something like that off and your console winds up subservient to your internet connection.  The effort to make that work across varying data transmission structures to produce the kind of return they've hypothesized is to me trivial.

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shadowlusterx

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#34 shadowlusterx
Member since 2008 • 295 Posts
Clouds make rain. Rain is water. Watercooler. Boom! What's not to believe?getyeryayasout
10/10
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shadowlusterx

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#36 shadowlusterx
Member since 2008 • 295 Posts
[QUOTE="shadowlusterx"][QUOTE="getyeryayasout"]Clouds make rain. Rain is water. Watercooler. Boom! What's not to believe?getyeryayasout
10/10

It's simple rocket science, really.

11/10
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#37 lunar1122
Member since 2012 • 784 Posts

where is the option for "WILL NOT WORK IN REAL WORLD APPLICATIONS" option?      What a lousy bunch of options from OP. 

Cloud is a gimmick , it puts even sony's CELL to shame for how badly overestimated people are giving this feature.      This is a joke

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PraetorianMan

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#38 PraetorianMan
Member since 2011 • 2073 Posts
[QUOTE="PraetorianMan"]

[QUOTE="shadowlusterx"] Wat? How the hell is bandwidth a measure of power?shadowlusterx

Not really a measurement of power in a literal sense. There is the implication that you need these astronomically high internet speeds in order to get the amount of data that 40 xbox's can process to your console in fast enough of a time that latency doesn't become an issue.

 

In this scenario, a slow internet speed would be equivalent to a shockingly bad RAM bottleneck. You could theoretically have the cloud CPU or GPU do insane amounts of work, but the slow internet speed would prevent you from doing anything useful with it.

It doesn't work like that. Just because you're processing more does not necessarily mean that you have more data to send. Also, you're making the assumption that after it goes through the internet, it'll instantly be in the RAM (Or wherever you're placing it?) while that is not the case, and the bandwidth of the hardware in the servers will still have an effect. You're also implying that the same type of processing will be done, but with internet ping being in milliseconds AT THE MINIMUM but hardware latency being in nanoseconds that's just completely and utterly impossible. Cloud processing doesn't seem to work the way you're thinking.

Oh... huh, my bad. That aside, do you agree with the general conclusion that the cloud will be restricted to relatively limited tasks?
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Wasdie

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#39 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

It's just marketing jargon. Bad marketing jargon. The fanboys are eating it up. 

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FPSfan1985

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#40 FPSfan1985
Member since 2011 • 2174 Posts
I like to stay optimistic about things. So I'll just say I hope it works out.
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Miketheman83

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#41 Miketheman83
Member since 2010 • 3156 Posts
Such denial from Sony fanboys it's pathetic :lol:
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Vyse_Legends

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#42 Vyse_Legends
Member since 2007 • 9387 Posts

Well...I'm bored and "Unlimited Power" put a smile on my face...

*votes for it*

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Heil68

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#43 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60714 Posts

95% marketing hype.

Riverwolf007
ahhh, no http://www.gamespot.com/news/xbox-one-cloud-service-to-offer-three-times-consoles-performance-report-6408993 3X the power is on the start of things. Endless power is a reality. Strap one on brah, you're looking at a future proof console.
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NEWMAHAY

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#44 NEWMAHAY
Member since 2012 • 3824 Posts
Such denial from Sony fanboys it's pathetic :lol:Miketheman83
lol
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Heil68

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#45 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60714 Posts

It's just marketing jargon. Bad marketing jargon. The fanboys are eating it up. 

Wasdie
"We're provisioning for developers for every physical Xbox One we build, we're provisioning the CPU and storage equivalent of three Xbox Ones on the cloud," http://www.oxm.co.uk/54748/xbox-one-specs-are-boosted-by-the-equivalent-of-three-xbox-ones-in-the-cloud/ It's a reality Was, coupled with some new IPs make me excited for the first time in 4 years for xbox.
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shadowlusterx

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#46 shadowlusterx
Member since 2008 • 295 Posts

[QUOTE="shadowlusterx"][QUOTE="PraetorianMan"] Not really a measurement of power in a literal sense. There is the implication that you need these astronomically high internet speeds in order to get the amount of data that 40 xbox's can process to your console in fast enough of a time that latency doesn't become an issue.

 

In this scenario, a slow internet speed would be equivalent to a shockingly bad RAM bottleneck. You could theoretically have the cloud CPU or GPU do insane amounts of work, but the slow internet speed would prevent you from doing anything useful with it.

PraetorianMan

It doesn't work like that. Just because you're processing more does not necessarily mean that you have more data to send. Also, you're making the assumption that after it goes through the internet, it'll instantly be in the RAM (Or wherever you're placing it?) while that is not the case, and the bandwidth of the hardware in the servers will still have an effect. You're also implying that the same type of processing will be done, but with internet ping being in milliseconds AT THE MINIMUM but hardware latency being in nanoseconds that's just completely and utterly impossible. Cloud processing doesn't seem to work the way you're thinking.

Oh... huh, my bad. That aside, do you agree with the general conclusion that the cloud will be restricted to relatively limited tasks?

Yeah. Everything I can think of where the cloud would be useful for graphical processing could be accomplished better through just having things pre-rendered to disc, saved to the hard drive, or accomplished through slightly longer load times.

Maybe stream cutscenes to save disc space? That's all I got.

Really though, nothing Sony or Nintendo couldn't achieve. 

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Krelian-co

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#47 Krelian-co
Member since 2006 • 13274 Posts

Clouds make rain. Rain is water. Watercooler. Boom! What's not to believe?getyeryayasout

:lol:

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Wasdie

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#48 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

It's just marketing jargon. Bad marketing jargon. The fanboys are eating it up. 

Heil68

"We're provisioning for developers for every physical Xbox One we build, we're provisioning the CPU and storage equivalent of three Xbox Ones on the cloud," http://www.oxm.co.uk/54748/xbox-one-specs-are-boosted-by-the-equivalent-of-three-xbox-ones-in-the-cloud/ It's a reality Was, coupled with some new IPs make me excited for the first time in 4 years for xbox.

So now you're on the other side.

Fantastic...

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Heil68

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#49 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60714 Posts

[QUOTE="Heil68"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

It's just marketing jargon. Bad marketing jargon. The fanboys are eating it up. 

Wasdie

"We're provisioning for developers for every physical Xbox One we build, we're provisioning the CPU and storage equivalent of three Xbox Ones on the cloud," http://www.oxm.co.uk/54748/xbox-one-specs-are-boosted-by-the-equivalent-of-three-xbox-ones-in-the-cloud/ It's a reality Was, coupled with some new IPs make me excited for the first time in 4 years for xbox.

So now you're on the other side.

Fantastic...

You'll end up with the X1 was, you know you will. Anyways, you and miketheman should come on the podcast and discuss the cloud, it would be a fascinating show.
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Wasdie

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#50 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="Heil68"] "We're provisioning for developers for every physical Xbox One we build, we're provisioning the CPU and storage equivalent of three Xbox Ones on the cloud," http://www.oxm.co.uk/54748/xbox-one-specs-are-boosted-by-the-equivalent-of-three-xbox-ones-in-the-cloud/ It's a reality Was, coupled with some new IPs make me excited for the first time in 4 years for xbox. Heil68

So now you're on the other side.

Fantastic...

You'll end up with the X1 was, you know you will. Anyways, you and miketheman should come on the podcast and discuss the cloud, it would be a fascinating show.

You know that actually sounds like fun. Keep me posted.