I think it's time we had a real system wars thread. The FACTS.

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dream431ca

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#1 dream431ca
Member since 2003 • 10165 Posts

First and foremost, this is real hardware specifications and not some made up crap. I have read different sites and different forums about the capabilities of both systems and I think it's time to compare them technically and how programming works within these systems. This thread is not intended for the hardcore fans to argue which system is more powerful or capable but instead, to understand the inner working of both systems and understand what developers must go through to produce quality games for both systems.

XBOX360

First I will go over the Xbox360. The Xbox360 is a unit consisting of 3 PPUs (Power Processing units) which are at 3.2Ghz each. The 3 PPUs are capable of handling 2 threads at once to handle more data flow between each unit allowing latency times to be low and increases efficiency. The PPUs are exceptional at doing something called general purpose processing which is mostly used in web browsers, Microsoft word, excel, basically general mathematics. It also can do some vector processing which is mostly tuned for game processing which includes vertex properties, 3D graphics processing and floating point calculations plus quadrant vertex patterns (which is essentially a point in space within a 3 dimensional area.) The 3 PPUs are synchronous with each other which means they all process information on the same clock cycle (this is one of the main reasons why the Xbox360 is easier to develop for)

The Xbox360 has a Graphics Processing unit (called the Xenon) which is typically used for applying Vertex shaders and pixel shaders plus Anti Aliasing applied on a separate die attached to the main Xenon die (which helps to take some of the load off the main Xenon die).

The Xbox360 has 512MB if ram in one big chunk. Both the 3 PPUs and the Xenon share this 512MB. The benefit of this is that whatever needs more Ram can access it quickly. The bad thing about this is that if either component needs more RAM but one component is using most of it, it can generate some bad latency and bandwidth times associated with which component needs more memory. The key is to allow each component to access the RAM without effectively stealing needed RAM from the other component. If the game is enhanced graphically, it can be difficult to utilize this technique as most of the RAM would be needed on the Xenon rather than the 3 PPUs. It should not be too much of a problem however, because the 3 PPUs are primarily there to assist in Data execution rather than Data processing. Most of the vector processing that goes on is being done in the Xenon in this case.

PS3

Next is the PS3. At the core of the PS3 is the Cell processor, which is a new and complex CPU, that can be used for many different applications. The Cell is composed of 1 PPU and 8 SPUs (Synergistic Processing Units). The PPU handles most of the general Processing and the SPU's handle most of the vector processing. (One SPU is disabled because of latency issues). The Cell is excellent at doing vector processing which is used for complex 3D graphics.

Your probably wondering what is vector processing? Vector processing can also be called array processing. It's a way of doing complex mathematics very effeciently in few steps as opposed to the normal way of processing. I'll give some examples:

Basic normal CPU processing: Lets say we want to add 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8 using normal processing (one at a time)

1+2 = sum1 (store the result somewhere)

3+4 = sum2 (store the result somewhere)

5+6 = sum3 (store the result somewhere)

7+8 = sum4 (store the result somewhere)

Sum 1 + Sum 2 = Sum1,2 (Store the result somewhere)

Sum 3 + Sum 4 = Sum3,4 (Store the result somewhere)

Sum 1,2 + Sum 3,4 = (Store final result somewhere)

With normal processing, it takes 7 steps to achieve the final result of the calculation.

Next is vector Processing using the same problem: 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8

{1+2+3+4} + {5+6+7+8} = {Sum1,2+Sum3,4} + {Sum5,6+Sum7,8}

{Sum1,2+Sum3,4} + {Sum5,6+Sum7,8} = {Sum1,2,3,4+Sum5,6,7,8} + 0 + 0}

{Sum1,2,3,4+Sum5,6,7,8} = Final result + 0 + 0 + 0

With vector processing we solved the same calculation using only 3 steps rather than 7 steps with the normal processing. This allows the Cell to handle very large amount of calculation data very efficiently. You should also know that this operation is done on one of the SPU's. When more SPU's become involved the processing rate rises exponentially with each SPU added in the operation. That being said, the Cell processor is known as something called a super-scalar. Something that can handle extremely large amounts of data very efficiently. There are other ways to make the Cell processor even process much faster with something called cell chaining but it won't be discussed here. It would take much to long to explain.

The Cell is a very complex piece of hardware. Unlike the Xbox360 processor, the Cell is an Asynchronous processor. Data gets processed at different times on all the SPU's and the PPU. This is one of the reasons why the Cell is difficult to program for. As developers get better at programming for the Cell, this will not be such an issue.

The PS3 has a GPU called the RSX. Not much is known about this graphics processor. Very little specs have been released on the GPU since it was annoucned in 2005. Some say it is similar to a Ge-force 7800 GTX. This GPU Is primarily used for vertex shaders and pixel shaders only. The cell does most or all of the vector processing. In theory, you don't even need the RSX to display a great looking game on your television. That wouldn't be a very smart decision, because you would loose some of the enhances the GPU gives you. It also makes it easier on the Cell to use vector processing to it's maximum capability.

The PS3 also has 512 MB of RAM, it's just distributed differently. The 512 MB is split evenly with the Cell and the RSX. This way, there is no competition who gets the most RAM, because both components get a dedicated supply of RAM. Also very important to note, all 7 of the Cell's SPU's have access to the RSX at any time, on a very fact BUS. This makes it so if the cell wants to implement Anti Aliasing really quickly, each SPU can send whatever information it needs to the RSX to get it done very quickly, rather than going through the memory bus which the Xbox360 does.

It is important to note that both systems have the capability to produce fantastic games. The only people who matter on this issue is the developers. They are the ones that have to learn each system. Right now the PS3 is difficult to understand and will take at least another year to use the Cell to a respectable level. The Xbox360 is user friendly in that, it uses basic techniques of programming to get processing done fast and efficiently. The Cell's approach is to reward the developer who wants to really research the Cell and to take the time to understand what things can be done with the Cell.

I'm done...Finally.

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Berserker_2

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#2 Berserker_2
Member since 2006 • 5948 Posts

Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

We can argue specs and get nowhere. The proof is in the pudding and the 360 has the games to show. We keep waiting for the PS3 to blossom, but it hasn'. If we compare the last gen, the Xbox 1 demonstrated it's power on launch day with Halo 1. Kameo is better looking than any PS3 game.

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Teuf_

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#3 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

Berserker_2


There's no evidence that Sony was ever planning such a thing, they've been working with Nvidia for a long time.
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NATATO

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#4 NATATO
Member since 2004 • 498 Posts

Yea... and that's why it's so expensive. And that's why no one wants to buy it.

Better graphics don't save a system. PS2 had the worst, and more or less swept GC and Xbox.

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Berserker_2

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#5 Berserker_2
Member since 2006 • 5948 Posts
[QUOTE="Berserker_2"]

Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

Teufelhuhn



There's no evidence that Sony was ever planning such a thing, they've been working with Nvidia for a long time.

Ken Kutaragi:

One of our ideas was to equip two Cell chips and to use one as a GPU, but we concluded that there were differences between the Cell to be used as a computer chip and as a shader, since a shader should be graphics-specific.

LINK

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ktrotter11

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#6 ktrotter11
Member since 2006 • 1140 Posts
[QUOTE="Berserker_2"]

Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

Teufelhuhn

is too

There's no evidence that Sony was ever planning such a thing, they've been working with Nvidia for a long time.

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JiveT

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#7 JiveT
Member since 2005 • 8619 Posts
I think 360 isstronger because Xenos is almost a full DX10 card once the hidden power is unlocked.
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Teuf_

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#8 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts
[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="Berserker_2"]

Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

Berserker_2



There's no evidence that Sony was ever planning such a thing, they've been working with Nvidia for a long time.

Ken Kutaragi:

One of our ideas was to equip two Cell chips and to use one as a GPU, but we concluded that there were differences between the Cell to be used as a computer chip and as a shader, since a shader should be graphics-specific.LINK



It was just an idea, they didn't seriously consider it. Many people like to suggest that RSX was a last minute decision.
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mouthpeace01

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#9 mouthpeace01
Member since 2006 • 2020 Posts

Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

We can argue specs and get nowhere. The proof is in the pudding and the 360 has the games to show. We keep waiting for the PS3 to blossom, but it hasn'. If we compare the last gen, the Xbox 1 demonstrated it's power on launch day with Halo 1. Kameo is better looking than any PS3 game.

Berserker_2
so true
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Zandeus

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#10 Zandeus
Member since 2006 • 3124 Posts
[QUOTE="Berserker_2"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="Berserker_2"]

Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

Teufelhuhn



There's no evidence that Sony was ever planning such a thing, they've been working with Nvidia for a long time.

Ken Kutaragi:

One of our ideas was to equip two Cell chips and to use one as a GPU, but we concluded that there were differences between the Cell to be used as a computer chip and as a shader, since a shader should be graphics-specific.LINK



It was just an idea, they didn't seriously consider it. Many people like to suggest that RSX was a last minute decision.

Ahh... man, you were owned... just take it like a man.... an idea is a consideration, they are the same exact thing.Be a man!

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Teuf_

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#11 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

Ahh... man, you were owned... just take it like a man.... an idea is a consideration, they are the same exact thing.Be a man!

Zandeus


I said "planning". Is that the same exact thing?
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mouthpeace01

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#12 mouthpeace01
Member since 2006 • 2020 Posts
[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="Berserker_2"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="Berserker_2"]

Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

Zandeus



There's no evidence that Sony was ever planning such a thing, they've been working with Nvidia for a long time.

Ken Kutaragi:

One of our ideas was to equip two Cell chips and to use one as a GPU, but we concluded that there were differences between the Cell to be used as a computer chip and as a shader, since a shader should be graphics-specific.LINK



It was just an idea, they didn't seriously consider it. Many people like to suggest that RSX was a last minute decision.

Ahh... man, you were owned... just take it like a man.... an idea is a consideration, they are the same exact thing.Be a man!

yes indeed
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deactivated-618bc23e9b1c9

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#13 deactivated-618bc23e9b1c9
Member since 2007 • 7339 Posts
Toys.
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osirisomeomi

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#14 osirisomeomi
Member since 2007 • 3100 Posts
Well it's true that the theoretical limit of the PS3 is significantly higher than that of the 360. That being said, the games haven't shown that yet. It's obvious though that understanding the Cell, it's power and its limitations takes a lot of time and effort to acheive. We will see over the next few years if this power is ever realized.
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deactivated-5e9044657a310

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#15 deactivated-5e9044657a310
Member since 2005 • 8136 Posts

Why are first generation PS3 games being compared side by side with second generation 360 games?

Just doesn't seem fair to me. If you look at 360's first gen games, they weren't all that impressive either

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mouthpeace01

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#16 mouthpeace01
Member since 2006 • 2020 Posts

Why are first generation PS3 games being compared side by side with second generation 360 games?

Just doesn't seem fair to me. If you look at 360's first gen games, they weren't all that impressive either

Nuck81

KAMEO

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lucas_kelly

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#17 lucas_kelly
Member since 2005 • 5783 Posts
I did not understand any of that.
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Mordred19

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#18 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts

the TC should go over the RAM issue of both systems, in regards to how much RAM is available for gaming.

the PS3 has less gaming RAM, correct? This is because about 60mb is reserved for the OS, but is that why the menu is more responsive on the PS3 than the 360's 'blades' menu, which is slower to respond to the home button?

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Teuf_

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#19 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

the TC should go over the RAM issue of both systems, in regards to how much RAM is available for gaming.

the PS3 has less gaming RAM, correct? This is because about 60mb is reserved for the OS, but is that why the menu is more responsive on the PS3 than the 360's 'blades' menu, which is slower to respond to the home button.

Mordred19


It is not currently known how much RAM is reserved for the PS3 OS, that info is probably under NDA. Originally it was much higher than the 360, but Sony has been decreasing the reserved amount.
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ff7isnumbaone

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#20 ff7isnumbaone
Member since 2005 • 5352 Posts
[QUOTE="Nuck81"]

Why are first generation PS3 games being compared side by side with second generation 360 games?

Just doesn't seem fair to me. If you look at 360's first gen games, they weren't all that impressive either

mouthpeace01

KAMEO

its a cute game. lol but it will always be up to people and their personal taste on what looks great.

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Mordred19

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#21 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts
[QUOTE="Mordred19"]

the TC should go over the RAM issue of both systems, in regards to how much RAM is available for gaming.

the PS3 has less gaming RAM, correct? This is because about 60mb is reserved for the OS, but is that why the menu is more responsive on the PS3 than the 360's 'blades' menu, which is slower to respond to the home button.

Teufelhuhn



It is not currently known how much RAM is reserved for the PS3 OS, that info is probably under NDA. Originally it was much higher than the 360, but Sony has been decreasing the reserved amount.

decreasing the reserved amount? like during firmware updates? that would be a good thing.

(Jack Sparrow voice) "Why is the RAM always gone? (lags a little bit) Oh, that's why."

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Teuf_

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#22 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts
[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="Mordred19"]

the TC should go over the RAM issue of both systems, in regards to how much RAM is available for gaming.

the PS3 has less gaming RAM, correct? This is because about 60mb is reserved for the OS, but is that why the menu is more responsive on the PS3 than the 360's 'blades' menu, which is slower to respond to the home button.

Mordred19



It is not currently known how much RAM is reserved for the PS3 OS, that info is probably under NDA. Originally it was much higher than the 360, but Sony has been decreasing the reserved amount.

decreasing the reserved amount? like during firmware updates? that would be a good thing.

(Jack Sparrow voice) "Why is the RAM always gone? (lags a little bit) Oh, that's why."



Yeah, they've knocked down the amount during firmware updates.
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Mordred19

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#23 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts
[QUOTE="Mordred19"][QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="Mordred19"]

the TC should go over the RAM issue of both systems, in regards to how much RAM is available for gaming.

the PS3 has less gaming RAM, correct? This is because about 60mb is reserved for the OS, but is that why the menu is more responsive on the PS3 than the 360's 'blades' menu, which is slower to respond to the home button.

Teufelhuhn



It is not currently known how much RAM is reserved for the PS3 OS, that info is probably under NDA. Originally it was much higher than the 360, but Sony has been decreasing the reserved amount.

decreasing the reserved amount? like during firmware updates? that would be a good thing.

(Jack Sparrow voice) "Why is the RAM always gone? (lags a little bit) Oh, that's why."



Yeah, they've knocked down the amount during firmware updates.

awesome.

by the way, how does that sentence go on the Laughing Man icon you use for your avatar? It's something about a deaf mute, right?

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Teuf_

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#24 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

awesome.

by the way, how does that sentence go on the Laughing Man icon you use for your avatar? It's something about a deaf mute, right?

Mordred19



It says: "I thought what'd I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes"

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Redfingers

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#25 Redfingers
Member since 2005 • 4510 Posts

I think 360 isstronger because Xenos is almost a full DX10 card once the hidden power is unlocked.JiveT

Keep in mind this will be used against you next time I see a "HIDDEN POWAH" PS3 bashing thread.

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Redfingers

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#26 Redfingers
Member since 2005 • 4510 Posts
[QUOTE="Berserker_2"]

Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

We can argue specs and get nowhere. The proof is in the pudding and the 360 has the games to show. We keep waiting for the PS3 to blossom, but it hasn'. If we compare the last gen, the Xbox 1 demonstrated it's power on launch day with Halo 1. Kameo is better looking than any PS3 game.

mouthpeace01

so true

"Kameo is better looking than any PS3 game" is wrong. Get over yourself.

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Mordred19

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#27 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts
[QUOTE="Mordred19"]

awesome.

by the way, how does that sentence go on the Laughing Man icon you use for your avatar? It's something about a deaf mute, right?

Teufelhuhn



It says: "I thought what'd I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes"

Freaky. Thanks, I need to see all those episodes.

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Teuf_

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#28 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts
[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="Mordred19"]

awesome.

by the way, how does that sentence go on the Laughing Man icon you use for your avatar? It's something about a deaf mute, right?

Mordred19



It says: "I thought what'd I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes"

Freaky. Thanks, I need to see all those episodes.

You definitely do, both the first and second series are great.

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Redfingers

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#29 Redfingers
Member since 2005 • 4510 Posts

This should elevate the discussion:

http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=shared+video+memory&i=51248,00.asp


"Sharing main memory with the display function reduces the amount of memory available to applications, and main memory is not as fast as the specialized video memory on stand-alone cards (see video RAM). See display adapter."

Here's VRAM, or video memory:

"Also called "VRAM," it is the type of memory used in a display adapter. Video RAM is designed with dual ports so that it can simultaneously refresh the screen while text and images are drawn in memory. It is faster than the common DRAM or SDRAM chips used as main memory in the computer. See shared video memory."

The Xbox 360 uses shared video memory, while the Playstation 3 uses dedicated memory, split between main RAM, available to the CPU, and video RAM, available to the GPU. According to PC Magazine, the video RAM on the PS3 should be faster since it uses a standalone card and should have more memory available to each successive application.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/614/614682p1.html

Additionally, let it be noted that the Playstation 3 uses XDR RAM for its main RAM, which has about 25.6GB/s as compared with the 22.4 GB/s bandwidth of the GDDR3 VRAM which composes the entirety of the unified RAM in the Xbox 360.

Theoretically, the Xbox 360 should be more "flexible," however, this concept doesn't appeal to me. Nor does it make any sense. In almost all contexts, it would be optimal to have the RAM split 256/256. I do not believe an application can shift pools of memory to the GPU or the CPU at will...is that the case? Especially considering that in PCs, the unified memory reduces the amount of memory available for applications.

At any rate, to judge that the Xbox 360 is superior due to unified memory is grossly exaggerated. Grabbing for straws, if you will. Low end PCs use unified memory, and high end PCs use dedicated memory. You be the judge.

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Redfingers

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#30 Redfingers
Member since 2005 • 4510 Posts
Note that the Xbox 360 has the shared video memory design for one basic reason: it's cheaper. Had to cut corners somewhere so they could afford the eDRAM die, I guess?
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Mordred19

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#31 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts

This should elevate the discussion:

http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=shared+video+memory&i=51248,00.asp


"Sharing main memory with the display function reduces the amount of memory available to applications, and main memory is not as fast as the specialized video memory on stand-alone cards (see video RAM). See display adapter."

Here's VRAM, or video memory:

"Also called "VRAM," it is the type of memory used in a display adapter. Video RAM is designed with dual ports so that it can simultaneously refresh the screen while text and images are drawn in memory. It is faster than the common DRAM or SDRAM chips used as main memory in the computer. See shared video memory."

The Xbox 360 uses shared video memory, while the Playstation 3 uses dedicated memory, split between main RAM, available to the CPU, and video RAM, available to the GPU. According to PC Magazine, the video RAM on the PS3 should be faster since it uses a standalone card and should have more memory available to each successive application.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/614/614682p1.html

Additionally, let it be noted that the Playstation 3 uses XDR RAM for its main RAM, which has about 25.6GB/s as compared with the 22.4 GB/s bandwidth of the GDDR3 VRAM which composes the entirety of the unified RAM in the Xbox 360.

Theoretically, the Xbox 360 should be more "flexible," however, this concept doesn't appeal to me. Nor does it make any sense. In almost all contexts, it would be optimal to have the RAM split 256/256. I do not believe an application can shift pools of memory to the GPU or the CPU at will...is that the case? Especially considering that in PCs, the unified memory reduces the amount of memory available for applications.

At any rate, to judge that the Xbox 360 is superior due to unified memory is grossly exaggerated. Grabbing for straws, if you will. Low end PCs use unified memory, and high end PCs use dedicated memory. You be the judge.

Redfingers

Thank you so much for clearing that up. I forgot to talk about the advantage of dedicated memory. I could not have described it better.

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Mordred19

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#32 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts

Note that the Xbox 360 has the shared video memory design for one basic reason: it's cheaper. Had to cut corners somewhere so they could afford the eDRAM die, I guess?Redfingers

I thought so too. The inefficient, shared memory architechture seems to reflect the 360's rushed nature.

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gmastersexay

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#33 gmastersexay
Member since 2003 • 3831 Posts
[QUOTE="Mordred19"]

the TC should go over the RAM issue of both systems, in regards to how much RAM is available for gaming.

the PS3 has less gaming RAM, correct? This is because about 60mb is reserved for the OS, but is that why the menu is more responsive on the PS3 than the 360's 'blades' menu, which is slower to respond to the home button.

Teufelhuhn



It is not currently known how much RAM is reserved for the PS3 OS, that info is probably under NDA. Originally it was much higher than the 360, but Sony has been decreasing the reserved amount.

It is currently at 52MB. http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/05/14/new-playstation-3-sdk-released-os-memory-footprint-lessened/

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#34 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts
[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"][QUOTE="Mordred19"]

the TC should go over the RAM issue of both systems, in regards to how much RAM is available for gaming.

the PS3 has less gaming RAM, correct? This is because about 60mb is reserved for the OS, but is that why the menu is more responsive on the PS3 than the 360's 'blades' menu, which is slower to respond to the home button.

gmastersexay



It is not currently known how much RAM is reserved for the PS3 OS, that info is probably under NDA. Originally it was much higher than the 360, but Sony has been decreasing the reserved amount.

It is currently at 52MB. http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/05/14/new-playstation-3-sdk-released-os-memory-footprint-lessened/



Well whaddya know! :P
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#35 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts
Note that the Xbox 360 has the shared video memory design for one basic reason: it's cheaper. Had to cut corners somewhere so they could afford the eDRAM die, I guess?Redfingers


It's not just cheaper, it has other implications. Managing one memory pool is definitely easier than one, and its what makes MEMEXPORT possible. It also means that there's only one gateway to the memory for both the CPU and the GPU, which means bandwidth can be tight.
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#36 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts
But is there any distinct advantage to a parrallel processor like the Cell in gaming, over a general purpose processor like the Xenos? Could it be said to havebeen a cost-saving move on Sony's part to use the CPU they had designed for other applications in the PS3. It probably would have been more costly for them to make a gaming CPU from the ground up for the PS3, right?
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#37 MetalContra
Member since 2006 • 1131 Posts

sdsd

---

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#38 Silvereign
Member since 2006 • 3006 Posts


dream431ca

So in other word more waiting...Even I think this is pretty sad come on Sony get your act together.

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#39 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts
But is there any distinct advantage to a parrallel processor like the Cell in gaming, over a general purpose processor like the Xenos? Could it be said to havebeen a cost-saving move on Sony's part to use the CPU they had designed for other applications in the PS3. It probably would have been more costly for them to make a gaming CPU from the ground up for the PS3, right?Mordred19


The Cell may be quite different from most PC and Console GPU's, but that doesn't mean its not "general purpose" (that term is very misleading). The advantage of using Cell is that you have loads of processing power available to you, if you can make the SPE's do your bidding. And of course there's all kinds of other factors going into why Sony chose it for PS3, like you said they were already sinking tons of money into Cell to begin with. Its also important to note that no console CPU is made "from the ground up" for any particular console. The Xenon is is a custom chip, but its based heavily on G5 chips designed by IBM.
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#40 danneswegman
Member since 2005 • 12937 Posts
ah, another specs topic......can't be bothered with them anymore.. it's about games for me, not specs.
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#41 Mordred19
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[QUOTE="Mordred19"]But is there any distinct advantage to a parrallel processor like the Cell in gaming, over a general purpose processor like the Xenos? Could it be said to havebeen a cost-saving move on Sony's part to use the CPU they had designed for other applications in the PS3. It probably would have been more costly for them to make a gaming CPU from the ground up for the PS3, right?Teufelhuhn


The Cell may be quite different from most PC and Console GPU's, but that doesn't mean its not "general purpose" (that term is very misleading). The advantage of using Cell is that you have loads of processing power available to you, if you can make the SPE's do your bidding. And of course there's all kinds of other factors going into why Sony chose it for PS3, like you said they were already sinking tons of money into Cell to begin with. Its also important to note that no console CPU is made "from the ground up" for any particular console. The Xenon is is a custom chip, but its based heavily on G5 chips designed by IBM.

I see.

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#42 Mordred19
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I remeber a critic saying that the idea of the Cell helping the RSX with graphics calculations was "idiotic". He was obviosly in the extreme. If the Cell helps with vector processing and such, is it's power being wasted, seeing as other CPU jobs need to be done like physics and AI? Is the Cell being bogged down helping the RSX do its job?
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#43 a_ratchet_fan
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Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

We can argue specs and get nowhere. The proof is in the pudding and the 360 has the games to show. We keep waiting for the PS3 to blossom, but it hasn'. If we compare the last gen, the Xbox 1 demonstrated it's power on launch day with Halo 1. Kameo is better looking than any PS3 game.

Berserker_2

Kameo:

I'm pretty sure that's a win for Ratchet.

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#44 Teuf_
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I remeber a critic saying that the idea of the Cell helping the RSX with graphics calculations was "idiotic". He was obviosly in the extreme. If the Cell helps with vector processing and such, is it's power being wasted, seeing as other CPU jobs need to be done like physics and AI? Is the Cell being bogged down helping the RSX do its job?Mordred19

Well, its a matter of a opinion but I don't see how using the Cell to help out the RSX is a "waste" of your resources. I mean you have 6 SPE's available to you, using one to do some culling isn't going to leave you helpless in terms of CPU time.

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#45 Mordred19
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[QUOTE="Mordred19"]I remeber a critic saying that the idea of the Cell helping the RSX with graphics calculations was "idiotic". He was obviosly in the extreme. If the Cell helps with vector processing and such, is it's power being wasted, seeing as other CPU jobs need to be done like physics and AI? Is the Cell being bogged down helping the RSX do its job?Teufelhuhn

Well, its a matter of a opinion but I don't see how using the Cell to help out the RSX is a "waste" of your resources. I mean you have 6 SPE's available to you, using one to do some culling isn't going to leave you helpless in terms of CPU time.

oh yeah, was it you who said they only use 1 SPE for the vector processing? I forgot about that. :P

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#46 Mordred19
Member since 2007 • 8259 Posts
and finally, before I check in, (it's 2:15 AM in my time zone) can a future firmware update make the seventh SPE available for gaming? is it some simple thing where it can be "turned on"? cause the developers could always use another one of those things for their games.
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#47 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts
[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

[QUOTE="Mordred19"]I remeber a critic saying that the idea of the Cell helping the RSX with graphics calculations was "idiotic". He was obviosly in the extreme. If the Cell helps with vector processing and such, is it's power being wasted, seeing as other CPU jobs need to be done like physics and AI? Is the Cell being bogged down helping the RSX do its job?Mordred19

Well, its a matter of a opinion but I don't see how using the Cell to help out the RSX is a "waste" of your resources. I mean you have 6 SPE's available to you, using one to do some culling isn't going to leave you helpless in terms of CPU time.

oh yeah, was it you who said they only use 1 SPE for the vector processing? I forgot about that. :P



Well it doesn't necessarily have to be 1, thats the beauty of the Cell. If you can spare 2 or 3, you can use them. If you can't you scale it back to 1. Having seperate units means you can adaptively balance the workload as needed.
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#48 SambaLele
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Sony considered using just 2 Cell chips for the PS3, but it was too difficult to program.

We can argue specs and get nowhere. The proof is in the pudding and the 360 has the games to show. We keep waiting for the PS3 to blossom, but it hasn'. If we compare the last gen, the Xbox 1 demonstrated it's power on launch day with Halo 1. Kameo is better looking than any PS3 game.

Berserker_2

i'd take the most future-proof system at any given time. and if you know about programming and hardware, to resume, if you really understand specs, you know that's the PS3.

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#49 SambaLele
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts
[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

[QUOTE="Mordred19"]I remeber a critic saying that the idea of the Cell helping the RSX with graphics calculations was "idiotic". He was obviosly in the extreme. If the Cell helps with vector processing and such, is it's power being wasted, seeing as other CPU jobs need to be done like physics and AI? Is the Cell being bogged down helping the RSX do its job?Mordred19

Well, its a matter of a opinion but I don't see how using the Cell to help out the RSX is a "waste" of your resources. I mean you have 6 SPE's available to you, using one to do some culling isn't going to leave you helpless in terms of CPU time.

oh yeah, was it you who said they only use 1 SPE for the vector processing? I forgot about that. :P

you have as many SPEs as you want (out of the 6) to do whatever task you want. those are flexible processors, they can even mutually help each other on their tasks. and you bet that 1 single SPE is far more efficient than one of the cores of the 360's CPU in whatever calc intensive task (and games mostly uses those kind of tasks; like vector processing or physics processing)

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#50 legol1
Member since 2005 • 1998 Posts
for me its much more simple than that its two philosophic way of building product the american fashion and the japanese fashion. first the 360 a powerfull machine made with two things in mind must be easy to program for and must be cheap to product this is why ms take the simple engenering solution like external power supply unified memory architecture dvd 9 analog output disc tray its simple, cheap.and now the ps3 made with the future in mind almost every component build from the ground with impressive number but not tested enough this is why one of thespe is not used because of latency bluray with a lot of space but long loading timeand all this come with a price for the consumer the devlopereven sony who lost a bunch of monney on every sale then you got it a more balancedmachine with economics consideration in mind or a technological cathedral multitool more expensivewith more delays and at the end not that much difference on the screen.