Does Nintendo just have inferior programmers?

@emgesp:

Yes. The variance in player movement and level interaction has yet to be matched by another developer.

Nintendo's programmers are some of the best in the industry. They excel at maximizing all of the unique attributes of their hardware and delivering games that are nearly completely free of glitches and bugs, and generally run near flawlessly. You can count the number of other developers that do that on one hand.

Their online has gotten significantly better as well.

Conker's Bad Fur Day plays pretty well if you ask me.

No, but it's a better game overall.

They rarely need day one patches or patches later, so I would say they are pretty good.

Consider how smooth their games run, I don't think so!

Absurd hyperbole.

Pretty much spot on.

---

TC's problem (or his question about online) has to do with a lack of properly planned online system for the platform, not any lack of dev quality in each studio.

id rather have an impressively detailed game with a robust online that glitches occasionally than a refined but unambitious game.

I have never seen a bug or glitch in a modern (Galaxy and above) Mario game. That alone is testament to the standard Nintendo's programmers are held to.

Unambitious? Nintendo? You're joking, right?

They essentially rebuild their IPs from the ground up for every game.

@drekula2:

If you had any remote idea on how hard it is to fix and even detect a bug/glitch, you wouldn't be saying that.

Ambitious games are great. But the ability to provide "clean" software is something to be celebrated, especially in today's age where the complexity of the various systems at play in any random 3D game, is quite insane.

If it were so easy, everyone would do it. Instead, we get unfinished games and patches galore.

Reviews say differently.

No, they have good programmers, plus they have a lot of money and can literally hire anyone, but what you need to remember is that Nintendo is a company that is run by former programmers, so instead of giving people the games and features they want, they give you what they want, which is what the 55 - 60 year olds who run the company think people want. Basically, they're stuck in the past.

Anyone who claims that God of War III has better gameplay than Bayonetta 2 is out of their damn mind. Also, standards do change. An excellent game in 2010 is not necessarily an excellent game in 2015.

Pretty much. The closest to that I've seen on Sony's side would be Naughty Dog and SM. Even then their games still have a few bugs here and there (nothing massive, but you get the picture).

The fact that Nintendo manages to basically do it with very minimal issues, regarldess of pushing the limits of their own software/hardware, is very impressive.

Some people really need to learn how to program to see how hard and time consuming some of this stuff really is.

ROFL. I don't agree with Heirren, but you can't be serious with this. Even back when it came out Sonic Adventure was notorious for having questionable controls and an abysmal camera.

@Desmonic:

It isn't at all. Go ahead and give examples.

Try thinking for yourself.

@Heirren: If you honestly think or believe the clunky mess that is Mario 64 controls better than any modern 3D game, you need to play more games.

At the time? Sure. But other devs soon caught up and surpassed it, just like Ninty surpassed it too.

Sounds very... Kamiya.

I wouldn't say they're inferior but they do seem to be struggling with online gameplay and features as well as HD development in general.

It's not really their fault though, it's Nintendo's upper management and overall policies (mostly relating to hardware development) that have them behind the competition. They didn't get their foot into the door of HD development until almost 8 years after the competition was hard at work on it. Of course they had to play catch up and that was another nail in the Wii-U's coffin.

@Desmonic:

Examples?

Nintendo didn't necessarily surpass it, they changed it. Mario titles were simplified over time. Both 64 and Sunshine have a more complex control scheme which allows for more player movements.

@Heirren:

More complex control scheme that is a mess and only really worked on the advent of 3D gaming. Especially Mario 64.

It took them a while, but PS2 onwards 3D games >>>>> Mario 64 in spatial control. Sly, Ratchet, Jak, Halo, Conker, Banjoo, Tomb Raider, GTA, etc, etc. Any of those (and more) reached higher, simpler and far more intuitive levels of spatial control & movement from gen 6 onward. So did Nintendo games obviously.

By today's standard Mario 64 is a clunky, obtuse beast to control, completely surpassed by most (if not all) current titles. It feels slow, it controls poorly and is absurdly imprecise compared to more modern 3D Mario games.

@Desmonic:

Those titles have infantile controls in comparison. It is as simple as watching gameplay. Mario 64 is yet to be matched in so many ways. I'm not the only one that would like to see nintendo return to the control nature of Mario 64

Their online is not where is should be.

Define "infantile" controls. Go on.

lol @ Mario 64 being unmatched. You really need to play more games dude.

@emgesp: Have you even played bayonetta 2?

Or even own a Wii U for that matter?

:

Clunky mess? It plays beautifully even today lol. When I think precise controls I think SM64 and I've played a bunch of different games.

whats wrong with the online?

it works...what more do you want lol....voice brats? i mean..voice chat?

@Epak_: It really doesn't.

Don't mistaken their effective simplicity for lack of talent. They're on of the last devs around committed to trying to release their games as glitch free as possible. Admittedly though, that's probably a lot easier to achieve when one's games aren't nearly as intricate as others.

@Desmonic: We just have to agree to disagree then. I've played my fair share of SLY, R&C and the later Mario titles, SM64 still feels more precise. It feels like I'm in total control of what the character does, I couldn't move as smoothly in Super Mario Sunshine for example, couldn't execute all the maneuvers as easily as in SM64.

I still like the weighty controls in more realistic games like GTA, Uncharted and Bloodborne, but when it comes to 3D platformers SM64's lag free controls are still outmatched imo.

Dude, the game is done being developed. It just needs to be translated into english.

I think it's mostly a hardware thing.

Although their "network infrastructure" is also seemingly a thing out of the 1990's.

@Epak_:

I haven't played 3D World on the WiiU but Galaxy 1 (and assumingly 2, which improved on everything from the first one) controlled miles better than Mario 64. I think you may need to play them back to back to get what I'm saying.

There is no denying that Mario 64 was a very important step in 3D gaming and will remain as a classic. As I've said, it took other devs a while to match it, but they did and they surpassed it also (just as Ninty did). I'm not taking any merit away from the game, but by today's standards (which was the argument) it did not age all that well. And that's mostly a symptom of being an early 3D game than anything else.

I

nope. nintendo, overall, have excellent programmers. well excellent game programmers. not so strong on the network programmers. server admins (who arent programmers) are also pretty good in that the nintendo network very rarely goes down or has a major security breach. its nowhere near as complex to maintain but its still robust...if very basic.

nintendos games very rarely release with shocking bugs. that alone puts them head and shoulder above a lot of others. they arent perfect of course but they are definately in the upper echelons of software quality in the games industry.

they got up to speed on how to use the new tech in the wiiu pretty quickly and they facilitate the creation of some gorgeous games on the wiiu. generally they manage to get a lot out of the hardware they make.

the integration of the wiiu gamepad into the whole wiiu system is also second to none. they havent found a very good use for it but its flawless in its function.

the only programmers that may need a bit of a finger wagging for the wiiu are the OS developers (i dont know if this is outsourced or not)...though again its probably the higher ups that are actually at fault. the OS is slow and bloated. it uses 1GB of ram and i have no idea why. everything about it is slow. is it running on that startlet ARM processor or something? generally nitnendos OSs are fast, robust and efficent affairs so its surprising to see the state of the wiiu OS.

there is clearly an emphasis on hitting performance targets and responsivness targets for nintendos programmers though. dropped frames..sloppy controls...unacceptable (did they ever fix the 59FPS issue in MK8?). the game will hit a consistent 30 or 60FPS (er for most games :P) and will stick with the one res (none of this dynamic resolution nonsense). its one of the reasons many of nintendos games dont use AA (the other being the wiiu archticture being not so good for AA)...it can contribute to unexpected dropped performance. if you read some of the iwata asks from years back on the design of the 3DS they talked about why they chose DSP for the graphics and one of the contributing factors was that it delivered reliable performance more of the time. they have a big focus on delivering quality software in terms of performance and reliability. these are probably bigger deals for them than visuals or technical sophistication.

Games which can be mastered with very little skill development. Ones which lack the need for precise button inputs and timing from the player.

So what does that have to with proper 3D spatial movement? Does a game have to be overly complex to just do something as simple as a run+jump to be considered good? You think Mario 64 is some sort of pinnacle in skill for 3D games? Ever played DMC? Bayonetta? Portal? Dark Souls? Please. There is a reason Nintendo moved on from that cumbersome control scheme.

That's is some grade-A nostalgia filled BS excuse to dismiss games. Keep living on that little bubble though.

It is the interaction with the environment. The controls aren't overly complex, there's just so much the player can do with them and a lot of skill is required to master them. I'm dumbfounded by a lot of these games you mentioned. SLy Cooper? Are kidding? Conker? TOMB RAIDER? Go ahead and show some gameplay of what impressive 3d control looks like.

Don't give a shit about reviews, Bayonetta 2 is a much better game, i much prefer full 3D to static camera angles for starters and Bayonetta 2 is so much faster and smoother than GoW 3.

Some of us Prize Gameplay over Graphics sunshine, the ones that have been gaming for longer than 5 minutes that is.

Besides, According to GS Bayonetta 2 is a AAAAE, GoW 3 is only AAAE

Not sure what reviews you've read... But most of the reviews I've read (including here on GameSpot) say Bayonetta 2 is either the best hack & slash game ever made, or at least a much better game than God of War 3.

You continue to mix combersome controls with skill for whatever reason. Take Dark Souls. Simple as all hell controls. Literally basic controls. However due to having proper 3D spatial movement control, playing the game actually requires SKILL. Portal, same exact thing. DMC same thing, with the caveat that making manual combos does require memorization + timing of usually not so simple combos. Same applies to Bayonetta.

I mentioned Sly, Jak, Conker, Tomb Raider (and others) on 6th Gen consoles onwars (PS2/Xbox/GC and so forth) as examples of more modern takes on 3D gaming with better spatial control and movement.

You are the one that should show us why Mario 64 controls better than the games I mentioned + other modern Mario games like the Galaxy series (and not just your cherry picked examples). Nostalgia only takes you so far.

Considering how polished their best games are, no they don't have inferior programmers. They are absurdly good, this is ridiculous.

They are creatively bankrupt and completely oblivious to the internet, but their talent is unquestionably impressive.

No, They're not inferior programers.

Most of the Games Nintendo makes are amazing and put up a great argument for Video Games being Art.

And I don't know what you're dabbling about Pikmin 3 not being as great as Halo 3.

Oh yeah, that is what it reminded me of.

That isn't always true. Some of my favorite games are well over 20 yrs old. Games I would still consider superior over most modern games.

True, there are exceptions. But it's harder to find a truly timeless game than to find one that ages.

Lol.

C'mon now. Proper 3D spatial movement control? ...actually....skill...insinuating that Mario 64 takes no skill? Show me this skill. A few posters get annoyed whenever I bring up Mario 64 gameplay videos.