Dark Souls 2 is better than Dark Souls 3? (potential spoilers for both games)

This entire post is grabbing at straws. Try again pls.

If Dark Souls 3 doesn't have a sense of tragedy then you are blind and deaf.

don't even compare the shitty ds2 arena to the one in ds3. DS3's arena is the best addition to the series ever. From now on, every Souls like title must have an arena that is at least as good as this one.

@silversix_: gotta agree there the ds3 PvP arena is really good, best in the series by far.

Guys, isn't DS3 arena is the exact same copy of Battle for Stoicism?

the arena is good, but the PvP is not.

with the poise change, its not bad at all. much better than BB and better than DkS1. PVP was good in DkS2 but that's the thing, pvp was the ONLY good thing about the game.

@silversix_: it always wasn't DS3 so it has that going for it. Dark souls 3 is Star Wars 7. Rehashed reunion episode with fan service and clichés that directly contradict the original material.

yeah and even being a "Rehashed reunion episode with fan service and clichés that directly contradict the original material" its still better than all rpgs released in 2015/2016 other than TW3/BB. How sad is that...

that I disagree with, Dark Souls 2 is my favourite of the franchise.

I prfer it over 3, and 1 is unplayable to me because its too clunky for me to get into, if id played dark souls first I might have felt different.

was DkS2 your first Souls game? If so, that's normal that its your fav. Most people that consider DkS1 to be the best Soulsborne game, got into the Souls games when DkS1 came out. Your first experience with the series will be the most memorable. I got into the game when Demon's just came out and consider it the best because playing a souls game for your first time feels the most 'special'.

yeah it was my first, Its probably why its my favourite. When I tried the others I already new the ropes, the first souls experience just cant be replicated.

I said earlier in this thread, its a junkie chasing the dragon trying to equal is first high, thats what playing souls games is like, the first game you play is your first high.

Its not better than Scholar of the First Sin, the best game in the Souls series.

No, its still the R1 spam fest where dex weapons rule. Using greatswords in PvP is going to get you killed in DS3.

And DS2 has much better level design, especially Scholar, where each level plays far differently.

dex weapons don't rule, quality weapons/builds do. if you think that using greatswords will get you killed, you clearly haven't played DS3 since the last patch/poise rebalance. Why do i feel like you've played the game when it was released, rage quit it after couple of days and since then you're bitchin' about its flaws...

Can someone fill me in as to how poise now works in DS3? I know it was gutted before launch but in what way has that changed?

Its your hyper armor. While attacking, if you get hit and you have poise, you're not interrupted and go through the attackers attack. There's plenty of videos on youtube you can check out (has to be the patch 1.08). This is also the reason why greatswords are strong since the last patch, they deal a ton of poise damage and have a lot of poise on their attacks.

Does not fix the PvP balance at all....in fact, restoring poise would unbalance something elsewhere and make light armor useless. The key unbalancing issues are the speed of the combat and the generous 70% equip load limit.

Greatswords will still be a liability in PvP vs dex weapon spam.

so does dex weapons or bleed weapons, but quality weapons like the Dark Sword are downright broken. I have played a few matches with the new patch. Greatswords suck against players that know how to parry or telegraph a move set, and DS3 has nothing like a Crypt Blacksword type weapon with a tricky moveset. The speed of the game itself makes greatswords a liability, only now bad PvP players cannot outright try and trade with them.

with how easy it is to parry, the spam isn't that much of problem and no, GS's do very well against all dex weps but running R1's spam from Washing Pole. Weapons that don't gain any poise (such as straight swords, katanas etc) don't need heavy armor so that light armor being useless is completely false. And its funny that you're talking about balance when your favorite Dark Souls is the Katana Souls 2.

I always find it difficult to respond to these discussions, because each of the three games is so different in many ways. To put it another way, each game has its good and bad qualities.

For me...I think Dark Souls 3 is mechanically the best game in the franchise so far. The actual movement and combat is sublime. Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 both feel good, but neither are as refined as Dark Souls 3.

Aside from mechanics, I'd say that the actual lore is probably best in the original Dark Souls. It felt like it had the most cohesive world and, for me, it was the most interesting world to try to understand from a lore perspective.

I think where Dark Souls 2 really shines, for me, is simply its depth and breadth. It was a massive game, especially if you include the DLC. And the Scholar of the first Sin edition really refined it to a high degree.

It's very difficult for me to choose which is ultimately the best games in the series though. I actually don't think I could rank them outright, I could only pick out certain parts that are better or worse individually.

There's a reason top "pros" descend upon the pvp in 3, dude. It's not just us saying these things.

Parry spam is easier to punish in DS2 due to the speed of the game, and the more lengthy recovery in general. I never lose to people who spam parry.

Greatswords are less viable in 3 due to the fact that you must be attacking in order for "poise" (because it isn't really poise) to work. The stamina cost is also astronomical for heavy weapons in 3 (and everyone has the same amount of stamina due to the hard cap at 40).

Heavy armor just sucks in 3. Not only is poise pretty awful in 3 for pvp, but even trading is not recommended. The damage reduction from heavy armor is so pathetic in 3, that the heaviest armor in the game barely protects you. Here's an example http://imgur.com/TQTKfa2

Most people who defend 3's combat over 2 just really suck at 2... I hate to be the person to point it out this way, but reality, including the picture I posted there, are stacked way up against people trying to boost the mechanics in 3. It just does so many things worse than 2. It's a pain to keep listing them all.

Dark Souls 3 is the worst in the series gameplay wise. Besides still having startup frames for back stabs and some hit box fixes, it pretty much reverses all of the improvements to the core engine from Dark Souls 2 SotFS. The only really viable 1 on 1 builds are physical based, and hybrid builds suffer from gimped stats in other areas like HP or overall damage. Additionally, there is basically reason to wear heavy armor in the game over wearing Flynn's ring and Carthus Blood Ring, since the protection you get from heavy armor amounts to less than 10% reduced damage from masters set.

The PvP is so atrocious; you can roll over and over again and, with Carthus Bloodring, you can get out of any situation without even planning or thinking about it. I'm being attacked now? Mash Circle!

In Dark Souls 2, you actually had to carefully place your rolls, and if you didn't you could actually get punished for scrubby mash roll tactics. Dark Souls 3 encourages it.

Dark Souls 3 is a fun game and all, but when it comes to a comparison between 3 and 2 (especially SotFS), there basically is none. Dark Souls 2 is so much better -- the team worked primarily on the gameplay aspects, where Dark Souls 3 was a cash in aimed at targeting Dark Souls 1 nostalgia.

i played DS3 AND DS2 as much as those supposedly "pros" aka random people that stream on twitch lol. I know what's good in pvp, pve or garbage everywhere. Instead of listening to "some" streamer running around with Carthus Curved sword+DMB telling everyone on his stream that this game blows, use your own brain and think for your self instead of repeating what some youtuber or streamer has told his viewers.

Parry spam is much easier to deal with in DS2, i never denied that. Same applies to estus chugging. They made parrying for babies in DS3 (just like BB)

You're very wrong on GS's. Greatsowrds were garbage (other than Black Knight GS for perseverance and Twin Prince's GS pre Simple infusion nerf) from the release of the game to the end of october when the poise patch came out. GS's are nowhere near consuming as much stamina as a real heavy weapon. Current greatswords are great because they interrupt everything unless you have ~44 poise to tank the first R1 and not many people run this much poise because you have to invest a lot in vit.

Trading IS recommended when you know for a fact that you will outdamage and land 2 R1's on a person that got stunned from your attack and was only able to land 1 R1 (poise/heavy armor comes into play here). Halberds and ultra weapons were great for that pre 1.08 patch. You want to trade now? Heavy armor is required unless your weapon has high hyper armor on the attacks. So no, far from useless (not to mention that they look good and better than light armor).

Saying that some1 sucked at X game that he has spent hundreds of hours in because he prefers the sequel is as ignorant as it gets lol. People have short memory span or didn't play DS2's pvp for very long because that game was the messiest souls game in the first ~3 months or so. 6 buffs making you invincible, full havel, avelyn cheese, santier's spear, katanas spam (which never got changed), infinite combos that can drain you from 100-0 without you being able to get out, dark magic being able to OHK, Monastery Scimitar etc. That game was the definition of a clusterfuck. People in here don't do much pvp and talk shit cuz that's what they've heard youtubers say...

@silversix_ Do you know why what you deem random youtubers, actually experienced players, are saying what they are saying about Dark Souls 3/Dank Rolls 3? It is because this is what players are experiencing in the game. @X_CAPCOM_X Has provided more than just here say or "I know what good pvp is" (which is what you say, without describing it). There's evidence in Capcom's posts. It's also telling how we both bring up similar points about the game that are terrible. Face it: From Software, in order to cater to nostalgia, made some awful design mistakes with this game. The fact that people call it things like "Dank Rolls 3" stem from objective factors in the game.

Carthus Curved Sword and the new Follower Saber are the dumbest shit in the game (with washing pole running r1's). I have no idea wtf are they doing and who are they listening to but these not being severely nerfed after half a year is a crime. But this is FROMSOFT we're talking about...

From Software also made SotFS, where I can even beat warped sword or katana users with careful play -- Dark Souls 3 is just not their most inspired creation.

So I take it now you're admitting the game has the worst PvP now? I will beat any build you want me to with Follower Sabre and Carthus Bloodring. This game is unbalanced and does not reward careful gameplay the same way Dark Souls 2 does. Mash roll and R1.

I've lived this game as well -- much beyond the 3 month period that most players granted them to fix the glaring issues with the game's player-player interactions. The thing is, this game has fundamental issues preventing the pvp from even hoping to touch 2. You went on listing issues that have all been patched out of 2 for ages (and were promptly). I listed issues that still exist in 3, are cited repeatedly, provided evidence for a couple of the glaring issues, and you have simply tried to deny them by declaring an hour count on the game.

My points still remain. Trading is not a good idea with heavy armor because of the pitiful damage reduction and the fact that someone paying attention can just run circles around you with follower sabre (I'm actually baffled that you argued this after the picture I provided). It's so bad in 3 that you can connect a running attack with a curved sword, then roll before the greatsword user will be able to hit you. Sure, they will have super armor, but your swing is going to hit someone in iframes.

I'm saying you aren't good at 2 because you're sitting here complaining about things that have workarounds. These are strategies that don't end up like the video above, a situation that has been replicated countless times. If you hop on Sotfs right now, you'll probably see an interesting build within 10 minutes of playing that is actually viable in pvp. This level of refine should have been brought over to 3 on day 1 (it's the fifth game in the series!), but it apparently wasn't in their interest to do so.

I actually wasn't vocal about this until 3 arrived, and I was furious with how many steps backward the game took. E.g. why does the parrying dagger block in the left hand? Why do offhand weapon movesets suck in general? Why is catching roll spammers nearly impossible? Why does the game punish me for using anything other than quality/dex/str builds? The list continues etc.

I was met with a chorus of similar criticisms of 3. It isn't just one random twitch streamer either.

being able to beat a meta build from time to time isn't saying much. i do 1v1's in the arena against them all the time, win most when using something decent but that doesn't mean those players with meta builds were always good. In DS3 we have the curved swords that have a fuckton of phantom range, spam and damage. In DS2 we have the stupid ass katanas with their insane counter damage. Choose your poison.

yeah, the same people that play/stream these games every day, got burned out on them and start nitpicking every single little thing. i know how it goes...

this arguing is useless, i'll go play the actual thing and leave texasgoldrush do the arguing part. DS3>DS2 in pvp and especially pve. The End.

I think the lesson here is to play more fighting games. They teach you how to separate competitive game design, rewarding the player who understands the system of the game, from non-competitive game design, which either is so unbalanced that only a single playstyle/character (equipment in the case of DS3 PvP) wins or that random chance is a better determiner of the winner.

Fighting game players have long had a way to recognize players who complain about aspects of a game that are actually not flaws and have workarounds. For example, some people complained about Super Turbo HD remix shotos who had decent fireball game, saying they would "cheat" with fireballs and follow up with an uppercut. In reality, their opponent used this strategy on them because they didn't know how to counter it. It was never a flaw with the game, as the fireball shoto user (usually in the same room) got beat by a non-fireball character soon after. This is how some players know that when you complain about "flaws" you actually just need to get better.

@silversix_: actually Katana swings are pretty bread and butter. If someone is really trying to win based upon katana counter damage, you can pretty easily predict what's coming next. They play in a particular way... I am willing to show you what I mean.

I am not saying 3 is a bad game. The gameplay just isn't as polished as 2, and it really shows in the quality of the pvp.

@mazuiface: Also, note how I pointed out flaws in the design of 3, while silver mostly complained about strategies he lost to.

@silversix_: Read this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

You've lost to strategies people used in a more polished game. It doesn't mean that the game is bad. Reading supplied.

@X_CAPCOM_X: Ahem... SIIRRRRLIINNNNN

This.

And this video shows what you can do to those who love to roll in Dark Souls II.

DS3 PVP sucks, and that's why players are leaving.

DS3 broke online play and covenants and it shows. They also cut down on invasion variety.

In DS2 you had:

1. Red Invasions

2. Blue Invasions (not in DS3)

3. Blue counter-invasions

4. Bell invasions (made worse in DS3)

5. Rat pulls (not in DS3)

6. Red and Blue arena play (only now in DS3 and made worse by sloppy rules)

7. Looking Glass invasions (not in DS3 as no bosses summon invaders)

8. Dragon duels (not in DS3)

9. Pilgrims of the Dark invasions (not in DS3 either)

10. Red summons

They killed sin as well. All along the online play front, DS2 does it better

And DS3 level design sucks, most areas are like Skyrim dungeons, super linear with a short cut or two back to the entrance. Its plain boring.

DS2 is the best in the franchise, IMO.

The dumbest thing here is that anything from the Souls series isn't even remotely good enough to have a competitive scene.. It's not a PvP game, definitely not... It just has it as a feature, and mechanically and balance-wise it's terrible. You lot are trying to tear 2 games apart that are absolutely atrocious at being competitive. Stop being brain-dead.

why do you mention a bunch of random stuff that isn't in DS3? Who the hell cares about random ass dragon duels when there's an arena (one that is better than any pvp activities in DS2), you can invade or simply put your sign down and be summoned? DS2 didn't even have a red eye orb lol this is how low it has gotten to. You like bell invasion ganking or being ganked? Go into the forest and do 6 man clusterf*cks, way more fun. All your points are covenant related so DS3 is bad because the covenants are streamlined? Don't know about everyone else but covenants is a small bonus that i barely notice in any Souls game. Give me the red eye orb and the rest can go away. I can also name a couple of random stuff that isn't in DS2...

A quality arena is not in DS2

6 man pvp is not in DS2

Yhorm's Great Machete is not in DS2

DS2 has generic copy/pasted bosses

The graphics are better in DS3

The animations are better in DS3

My character looks better in DS3

Which means DS3>DS2. Oh and i almost forgot, DS2 has the back stepping iframes lmao. Messy.

true but its fun and has good lasting appeal with the build variety and such *excluding BB*.

Lets destroy your pathetic argument now shall we.

The arena in Ds3 is not a quality arena because the rules can be cheesed. It shows once again, that the team lacks thought when implementing things. At least the DS2 arenas work, and they match the culture of the covenants.

6 man PVP can indeed happen in the current gen versions of DS2.

And DS3 bosses not copy pasted? Wow......Pontiff Sulyvahn is basically Fume Knight from DS2. Don't get me started on the DLC bosses.

And DS3 lacks the creativity of rat pulls or the pilgrim of dark invasions where enemies attack both the host and the invader. Outside of the Mad, DS3 is bare bones when it comes to creativity for online play.

And DS3 outright took out how I invade in DS1 and DS2 as a blue spirit, and made the Blue Sentinels a wasted covenant.

But the PvE sucks too. DS3 has very boring level design where every level outside a couple plays like 1-1 from Demon Souls, and Miyazaki just doesn't understand that 5-2 in Demon Souls just isn't fun and yet he keeps copying that level. And enough with dragons on towers.

There is no creativity that DS1 and DS2 had. No interesting tricks. Its by the numbers. There is nothing like that frightening ghost woods from DS2 in DS3 or the time travel of the Forest of the Fallen Giants. Archdragon's Peak is no Dragon Aerie either.

Look you say " PvE" but here you are moaning about the level design. Seriously ?

Archdragon's Peak was a cool area... I found Irithyll Dungeon to be scary af... Yeh, if they brought in a ghost woods area then you would have gone on and on about how they copied DS2.. You don't even realize how delusional you are. You are asking for interesting tricks yet you want rehashes of certain areas. How dumb af is this going to get ?

Go away.

But Archdragon Peak isn't good level design. Its linear until the end and doesn't have the level interactivity that Dragon Aerie had. Instead of being a unique level, it plays just like another Wall of Lothric, Undead Berg, 1-1 area.

And if the brought the ghost woods in DS3, I would still complain, because its no longer unique. DS3 brings things back but they are no longer original. And read my argument again. I didn't ask for DS2 rehashes. Stop making up my arguments.

For one, I mainly criticized the mechanics of the gameplay, which display their worst symptoms in pvp.

To continue, It's a game with head-to-head modes; it can be competitive. That doesn't mean it's Tekken-level competitive depth. It just means that you can play the game competitively.

If Smash bros can be competitive, then Dark Souls surely can be competitive. Don't be absurd.

Also, if you say this, you can no longer defend 3 from any standpoint. I've seen the same people who readily employ all sorts of tired slanders of 2's combat (that aren't even relevant anymore) move their goalposts by stating "the series isn't pvp focused." Excuse me, why is a huge component of the series being susceptible to pvp for your entire time playing then? It's a bogus absurdity used to ignore the mountains of valid criticisms of the latest game.

Also, don't try to use insults in place of an argument.

To the last point: insults in place of a well thought out argument are an indication that the person arguing is just wrong and cannot conform to reality.

Also seconded about the competitive play part. Sure, Dark Souls is not as well rounded as the best fighting games, but if Smash Bros fans can whine to get their game at EVO of all places, then Dark Souls can be played competitively, because Smash sure as hell is less competitive and well rounded than any souls game.

Arguing with texas is like arguing with a wall. When you said that Greatswords are bad in pvp, i knew you weren't even playing the game. Go back to your DS2 to do pvp on the bridge with 11 other people that still log in to play DS2.

They are bad in PvP. An experienced player will telegraph their attacks and counter it easy. Its far easier to counter greatswords in DS3 than it is DS2 due to the faster gameplay. And DS3 lacks some of the mechanics in DS2 that can make greatswords more unpredictable.

learn. you don't play this game, you don't know anything but what was present at release... the last time you played DS3.

Yet its still easier to counter them and parry them. Also, greatshields can take greatswords out of the game. It does nothing against an under 70% equip load Havel monster.

The video guy doesn't take into account that greatswords also weigh more, which makes greatshield use less viable. So straight swords are better for many builds.

And Ultra Greatswords, which were very good in DS2 PvP, absolutely suck in DS3.