Biggest culprits of games that achieved success by dumbing down the genre.

Bioshock, Fallout 3 and Oblivion are the worst culprits imo. It is a darn shame how hey wrecked those franchises but all anyone wants these days are things handed to them on a plate.

Just list all of the most popular gaming franchises.... that will be your answer on SW.

Scratch what I just said. List PC franchise that has now made it to consoles. Thats your real answer according to SW. Well really just hermits.

Scratch what I just said. List PC franchise that has now made it to consoles. Thats your real answer according to SW. Well really just hermits.

h575309

Sea Dogs, Deus Ex, Thief, SWAT, Dreamfall...just some examples of Ips that did move to consoles, did get dumbed down, but failed to achieve success :)

[QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]

World of Warcraft is definitely the biggest culprit.

I don't blame Blizzard though, MMO developers of late have been making the most rudimentary exercises into unecessarily difficult and time consuming tasks.

IronBass

first off its a mmorpg big difference you ever play everquest, SGW pre NGE, Final Fantasy XI They used to have prema Death

the time it takes to get to level 20 in wow would be equal to maybe 5 levels in a lot of mmorpgs

WoW was not what made mmorpgs accesible for most gamers (50$ + monthly fees)infact other then making it easy enough for a larger market, high pricedAds, and Friends that refused to play anything else are whatdrew the Large Large Population.

Example Take 2 ofany online only games

They are both free and awsome

but Nobody you know plays Game A

whileon Game B your friends are waiting to play with you

What game are you gunna play?

[QUOTE="Birdy09"][QUOTE="IronBass"] What did WoW "dumb down"? WoW made MMOs accesible for most gamers, something that is a huge requirement for a "Massive Multiplayer" game. Its success is based on how easy it's to start on it and how complex it gets later. It's a very smart design for its genre.sSubZerOo

[QUOTE="h575309"]

Scratch what I just said. List PC franchise that has now made it to consoles. Thats your real answer according to SW. Well really just hermits.

AdrianWerner

Sea Dogs, Deus Ex, Thief, SWAT, Dreamfall...just some examples of Ips that did move to consoles, did get dumbed down, but failed to achieve success :)

SWAT? Really? I have to dissagree on that one. The originals played like a laser disc game.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Birdy09"] Please, WoWs end game is neither complex or even the best of its genre. most of the classes are now carbon copies of eachother, theres no need for setups, Final Fantasy 11's combat is more complex and rewarded beneath the surface (im ofc talking end game).gonzalezj1

what are you comparing WOW to have you played any other mmorpgs?

[QUOTE="Birdy09"][QUOTE="IronBass"] What did WoW "dumb down"? WoW made MMOs accesible for most gamers, something that is a huge requirement for a "Massive Multiplayer" game. Its success is based on how easy it's to start on it and how complex it gets later. It's a very smart design for its genre.sSubZerOo

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

This game made the masses think they like RPGs. But when a deeper RPG comes out, such as The Witcher or Drakensang, most of those "Oblivionites" hate it because it's too complicated and spread the word those games aren't good.

There's several things that are annoying about what's going on in this thread. The first is that no one has bothered to come up with an operational definition of "dumbed down". I suppose the op should have done that. The second is that no one feels that it's necessary to explain why they feel as though a game has been dumbed down. There's obviously going to be some contention - you need to defend your position.gonzalezj1

I'm guessing "dumbing down" here refers to the removal of complex gameplay mechanics in favour of appealing to a more casual audience.

The hurted PC gamers because of what Halo "did" to FPS, the SS2 fans hurted by Bioshock, the Fallout fans angry at Beth.. It's just too much fun :lol:IronBass

Hm, what part of it is fun? It's not just the PC gamers that are "hurted", it's all gamers who love complex games - the fact that much of the dumbing down occurs when series go multiplat isn't totally relevant to this thread.

Oh, and this thread isn't controversial enough. Let's go with...Star Wars: KOTOR. The hugely successful roleplaying game that had the absolute bare minimum of roleplaying - the only meaningful choice in the entire game is made before you start playing, where you decide to either get the good ending or the bad one.

I loved the game, but it wasn't exactly complex.

[QUOTE="HenriH-42"]

Bioshock achieved success by being in every way inferior version of System Shock 2, made almost 10 years later.

IronBass

Yes because higher review scores = more complex game.

Bioshock is the System Shock 2 for the casual generation.

SWAT? Really? I have to dissagree on that one. The originals played like a laser disc game.

DaBrainz

Fallout 3, Oblivion, Morrowind, Heroes of Might and Magic 5, Bioshock, Deus Ex:Invisible War, and Thief 3 all come to mind.

Surprised no one said Resident Evil 5. Although it was fun it really seemed pretty dumbed down.

Bioshock, i hated that game with a passion. How on Earth were people such suckers for the things it did? Atmosphere? Scares? Story? Are you kidding me?-Pred-Alien-

[QUOTE="Birdy09"][QUOTE="Fried_Shrimp"] That's just a stereotype IMO. For example, The Wii easily has the most complex and hardcore shooter of any platform.Fried_Shrimp

[QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="HenriH-42"]

Bioshock achieved success by being in every way inferior version of System Shock 2, made almost 10 years later.

HenriH-42

Yes because higher review scores = more complex game.

Bioshock is the System Shock 2 for the casual generation.

[QUOTE="Fried_Shrimp"]

Lol what is this magical shooter?Birdy09

What! you joking right?

easily most Complex and Hardcore shooter?

WoW i Guess i could see someone thinking that after playing wii sports and mario kart for a year of two.

[QUOTE="IronBass"][QUOTE="HenriH-42"]

Bioshock achieved success by being in every way inferior version of System Shock 2, made almost 10 years later.

Yes because higher review scores = more complex game.

Bioshock is the System Shock 2 for the casual generation.

I would say many games have done this as listed, ironically I would say most of those said titles also played a lot better than those before them.

[QUOTE="HenriH-42"]

[QUOTE="IronBass"] It also scored higher. Difficult to say it's an inferior version of SS2.h575309

Yes because higher review scores = more complex game.

Bioshock is the System Shock 2 for the casual generation.

[QUOTE="h575309"]

Scratch what I just said. List PC franchise that has now made it to consoles. Thats your real answer according to SW. Well really just hermits.

Sea Dogs, Deus Ex, Thief, SWAT, Dreamfall...just some examples of Ips that did move to consoles, did get dumbed down, but failed to achieve success :)

This thread will become a "let's hate popular games" thread.IronBass

[QUOTE="Fried_Shrimp"]

[QUOTE="Birdy09"] Lol what is this magical shooter?blue_hazy_basic

Like I stated before, corruption is more complex by default because shooters are not complex by design. Infact, I would say that the metroid series was dumbed down by corruption because its moreshooter and less adventure.

[QUOTE="DaBrainz"]

SWAT? Really? I have to dissagree on that one. The originals played like a laser disc game.

AdrianWerner

My point was that SWAT cannot be dumbed down when the original was an interactive movie and is already the lowest common denominator when it comes to complex gameplay (unless you consider dragons lair complex gameplay).

Fallout 3 and Oblivion. Hey, they may have dumbed them down, but they did so by removing some of the crapiest elements from the predessecors. Peoples love for the awful combat in the original Fallout AND Morrowindstill annoys me to no end. I don't care if its your opinion, it dosn't even make sense. There's only so much you can do with a gun, and for that reason it's best to wield it in realtime, and when my crosshair aligns perfectly with a target I expect them to feel pain.

Ghost Recon was dumbed down, and I thought it was worse because it removed elements that made the originalGhost Recon alot morefun. For whatever reason I did not like GRAW that much. It would have been nice to be able to switch characters for a start though. They just removed the tactical elements andmade a game which was like GeoW, but not as good.

Also Dreamfall does not compre to The Longest Journey, but I doubt either were all that succesfull.

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

This game made the masses think they like RPGs. But when a deeper RPG comes out, such as The Witcher or Drakensang, most of those "Oblivionites" hate it because it's too complicated and spread the word those games aren't good.

RyuRanVII

"Oblivionlites"? Oh dear.

On the subject of The Witcher much of that was a dumbed down version of Neverwinter Nights. They ripped off so many elements from it, andthey simplified alot of it. It was also a much better game, just as Oblivion was a better game than Morrowind.

Fallout 3 and Oblivion. Hey, they may have dumbed them down, but they did so by removing some of the crapiest elements from the predessecors. Peoples love for the awful combat in the original Fallout AND Morrowindstill annoys me to no end. I don't care if its your opinion, it dosn't even make sense. There's only so much you can do with a gun, and for that reason it's best to wield it in realtime, and when my crosshair aligns perfectly with a target I expect them to feel pain.WasntAvailable

I'll agree that Oblivion's combat is more 'fun' than its predecessors (but not with Fallout 3), but that's not really the point.

The old combat systems worked because they revolved around what your characters were capable of. Your feeble mage shouldn't be able to fight things effectively with a sword - in Morrowind this worked by making your mage basically unable to hit anything (which made the combat 'dull', I guess) - but in Oblivion (which relied totally on player skill) the only difference between the untrained mage and the highly buffed warrior was damage (and a few useless skills). The same goes for Fallout.

The old systems might not be as exciting as the new ones, but they actually made sense and gave your characters a meaningful difference, as well as adding depth to the combat. The new system just means that all of your characters are basically the same, which some of us find boring.

Also Dreamfall does not compre to The Longest Journey, but I doubt either were all that succesfull.WasntAvailable

Ooh, interesting choice. Dreamfall was heavily dumbed down, but at least the writing and characters were much better than TLJ, so I probably ended up loving it even more.

Deus Ex 2. I win :P

[QUOTE="WasntAvailable"]Fallout 3 and Oblivion. Hey, they may have dumbed them down, but they did so by removing some of the crapiest elements from the predessecors. Peoples love for the awful combat in the original Fallout AND Morrowindstill annoys me to no end. I don't care if its your opinion, it dosn't even make sense. There's only so much you can do with a gun, and for that reason it's best to wield it in realtime, and when my crosshair aligns perfectly with a target I expect them to feel pain.Planeforger

I'll agree that Oblivion's combat is more 'fun' than its predecessors (but not with Fallout 3), but that's not really the point.

The old combat systems worked because they revolved around what your characters were capable of. Your feeble mage shouldn't be able to fight things effectively with a sword - in Morrowind this worked by making your mage basically unable to hit anything (which made the combat 'dull', I guess) - but in Oblivion (which relied totally on player skill) the only difference between the untrained mage and the highly buffed warrior was damage (and a few useless skills). The same goes for Fallout.

The old systems might not be as exciting as the new ones, but they actually made sense and gave your characters a meaningful difference, as well as adding depth to the combat. The new system just means that all of your characters are basically the same, which some of us find boring.

I gotta say that a mage could probably hit someone witha sword, hr/she just might not swing it as hard. It "missing" by going through the thing right in front of you in Morrowind (especially for ranged combat :|) was not what I would say "made sense".

I gotta say that a mage could probably hit someone witha sword, hr/she just might not swing it as hard. It "missing" by going through the thing right in front of you in Morrowind (especially for ranged combat :|) was not what I would say "made sense".

-RPGamer-

Hm...yeah, you're right. I take that back, although I still think it was necessary from a gameplay perspective (to make your stats meaningful).

[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"]

I gotta say that a mage could probably hit someone witha sword, hr/she just might not swing it as hard. It "missing" by going through the thing right in front of you in Morrowind (especially for ranged combat :|) was not what I would say "made sense".

Planeforger

Hm...yeah, you're right. I take that back, although I still think it was necessary from a gameplay perspective (to make your stats meaningful).

Completely agree, there has got to be a happy medium of good gameplay with stats playing a heavy role.

[QUOTE="WasntAvailable"]Fallout 3 and Oblivion. Hey, they may have dumbed them down, but they did so by removing some of the crapiest elements from the predessecors. Peoples love for the awful combat in the original Fallout AND Morrowindstill annoys me to no end. I don't care if its your opinion, it dosn't even make sense. There's only so much you can do with a gun, and for that reason it's best to wield it in realtime, and when my crosshair aligns perfectly with a target I expect them to feel pain.Planeforger

I'll agree that Oblivion's combat is more 'fun' than its predecessors (but not with Fallout 3), but that's not really the point.

The old combat systems worked because they revolved around what your characters were capable of. Your feeble mage shouldn't be able to fight things effectively with a sword - in Morrowind this worked by making your mage basically unable to hit anything (which made the combat 'dull', I guess) - but in Oblivion (which relied totally on player skill) the only difference between the untrained mage and the highly buffed warrior was damage (and a few useless skills). The same goes for Fallout.

The old systems might not be as exciting as the new ones, but they actually made sense and gave your characters a meaningful difference, as well as adding depth to the combat. The new system just means that all of your characters are basically the same, which some of us find boring.

Also Dreamfall does not compre to The Longest Journey, but I doubt either were all that succesfull.WasntAvailable

Ooh, interesting choice. Dreamfall was heavily dumbed down, but at least the writing and characters were much better than TLJ, so I probably ended up loving it even more.

What? I liked Dreamfall and I liked it's writing, but you thought it was better than TLJ? Never heard that before, I much prefered TLJ, and I played it backwards.

Neverwinter Nights had a combat system that made sense. It was both entertaining and had depth. The original Fallout combat system had neither. Even if you sacrifice some of the depth of gameplay in order to make it more fun, I feel that is a worthy sacrifice, espically with Fallout which in my opinion was inexcusably bad because it sacrificed gameplay in order to replace it with atificial depth. Also Oblvion wouldn't have had that problem if it wasn't for the level scalling. It still never bothered me much, because I never found Fallout or Morrowind challenging past for the first hour. I do miss the awesome spells from Morrowind though.

Call of Duty, Oh, my, god.

samuraiguns

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]

[QUOTE="DaBrainz"]

SWAT? Really? I have to dissagree on that one. The originals played like a laser disc game.

DaBrainz

My point was that SWAT cannot be dumbed down when the original was an interactive movie and is already the lowest common denominator when it comes to complex gameplay (unless you consider dragons lair complex gameplay).

But if you want to be so anal about it..then the game you're complaining about was called Police Quest: SWAT. And there have been 4 PoliceQuests games before it, each one a lot more complex than it. Thus your logic can't be applied here :)

Well this thread has just turned into a PC elitist thread anyway. Everything on consoles is so dumbed down and PC has the most complex and amazing games. I cant play any console games anyway because theyre just so simplistic, I cant stand them. Obviously.h575309

I don't mind simplier games and I would hope the idiotic idea "I play simple games therefore I'm dumb" is long dead. What I hate however is taking an established PC franchise and then dumbing it down, destroying all that was good about it. Such game can be good on it's own, but it's terrible sequel and not what fans want. It would just make a lot more sense to make a brand new game instead of turning the IP on it;s head

Metroid is complex. You just HAVEN'T PLAYED IT.Fried_Shrimp

But I guess ignoring reality is one way to cope with that AdrianWerner

[QUOTE="DaBrainz"]

[QUOTE="AdrianWerner"]Umm... I was talking about console SWAT games; SWAT : Global Strike team for Xbox and PS2, which was actualy quite good, but still dumbed down compared to SWAT3 and it flopped sales-wise compared to SWAT3. And then Sierra made SWAT: Target Liberty for PSP, top down shooter...this was not only dumbed down like hell, but unlike GlobalStrike Team it was also horrible game on it;s own

AdrianWerner

My point was that SWAT cannot be dumbed down when the original was an interactive movie and is already the lowest common denominator when it comes to complex gameplay (unless you consider dragons lair complex gameplay).

SWAT was a spin off and had nothing to do with my beloved police quest point and clickers. Sierra used to be so great:cry:. For whom the bell tolls...

[QUOTE="RyuRanVII"]

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

This game made the masses think they like RPGs. But when a deeper RPG comes out, such as The Witcher or Drakensang, most of those "Oblivionites" hate it because it's too complicated and spread the word those games aren't good.

"Oblivionlites"? Oh dear.

On the subject of The Witcher much of that was a dumbed down version of Neverwinter Nights. They ripped off so many elements from it, andthey simplified alot of it. It was also a much better game, just as Oblivion was a better game than Morrowind.

Fallout 3

oblivion

halo 2

doom 3

[QUOTE="h575309"] Well this thread has just turned into a PC elitist thread anyway. Everything on consoles is so dumbed down and PC has the most complex and amazing games. I cant play any console games anyway because theyre just so simplistic, I cant stand them. Obviously.AdrianWerner

I don't mind simplier games and I would hope the idiotic idea "I play simple games therefore I'm dumb" is long dead. What I hate however is taking an established PC franchise and then dumbing it down, destroying all that was good about it. Such game can be good on it's own, but it's terrible sequel and not what fans want. It would just make a lot more sense to make a brand new game instead of turning the IP on it;s head