Carolyn Petit's Gender Analysis on TLOU

I'm a bit late on this, I know, but I just read it today and I was looking at the comments and saw how defensive and angry they were. 

Most people mistook her article for saying "TLOU has a bad story and portrays women badly and it's sexist because female characters die", which was not at all her premise.  But many times when people read a discussion about gender through media, they assume it to be an attack on men or a supposition that men should feel guilty.

Personally what I got from the article was this:  TLOU was a bit better than your average game when it comes to portraying women, but it is not at a high shining standard that changes the typical formula for action games , but nonetheless one that does it adequately.

Ellie is a brilliantly made character, and I agree on that end, though Tess wasn't too fleshed out and Marlene is two-dimensional.

There's absolutely nothing inherently bad about TLOU's portrayal of women (overall).  But nothing mindblowingly good either. 

I find it difficult to trust a "gender analysis" from someone who made the decision to change their gender for whatever reason.Stinger78

I find it difficult to trust a "gender analysis" from someone who made the decision to change their gender for whatever reason.Stinger78

As some character from Star Wars said "Who I am is not important.  The message is what's important".

Honestly, everytime Carolyn posts here there's tons of people who make generalizations or discredit her because of her gender.  And it's totally irrelevant.  I think people are genuinely scared of what they don't understand.

[QUOTE="Stinger78"]I find it difficult to trust a "gender analysis" from someone who made the decision to change their gender for whatever reason.drekula2

As some character from Star Wars said "Who I am is not important.  The message is what's important".

Honestly, everytime Carolyn posts here there's tons of people who make generalizations or discredit her because of her gender.  And it's totally irrelevant.  I think people are genuinely scared of what they don't understand.

A lot of people said that Carolyn might be biased on her review of "Gone Home," but I found it spot on. As a 40 year old hetero male, I was almost in tears at the end of that game.

I did think TLoU went far beyond female stereotypes though. The women could be tough and salty warriors (Tess). I'll always remember Ellie's comment about the model in the ad/poster, where she says "didn't they have enough to eat?" and Joel says yeah sometimes they starved themselves to look good and Ellie says that's stupid. Ellie is almost androgynous in my mind. Does not fit any kind of female stereotype. She like anyone else in her world is all about survival.

My issue is it's not like the two brothers were multi-dimensional characters and they were there about as long as Marlene but yet they're not pointed out as being the same old characters.  The two main characters are the only multi-dimensional characters, and pretty much all the side characters are relatively conventional (men and women) but yet the male characters are never called out for being one dimensional (there are a lot of stereotypical evil male bad guy characters).  Basically, if you want to talk about portrayal of characters do it for both sexes, don't sensationalize it to be just for females (unless females are portrayed horribly, which some games do but then some games do the same for males, I couldn't even finish Gears of War, those characters I just couldn't stand).

It's pretty much the best example of a mature, nuanced characterisation not only in it's genre but also the industry. And her response to it came off as a disinterested shrug that felt like she wasn't giving the game full credit for what it did do and instead zeroed in on the few minor points of what it didn't. To be fair I think part of that is that it wasn't clear that the article was part of a running series that looks specifically at games under a particular lens (I haven't seen another article like that since) so it came across as an off-the-cuff 'hey, lets be really picky and tear a game apart!' type of thing when it wasn't intended to.

To her credit, she did open my eyes to the concept of an androcentric frame. But what really bothers me is it almost sounds like the article is saying that is in and of itself a problem. Any work of art will necessarily have the view of those who make it infused in it (whether they be pro-life, right-wing or what have you) so it is inevitable that a game made by men will speak to and from their experiences. If she was seriously taking issue with the game simply because it is told from an androcentric frame then I think she is being a little too harsh and applying standards to videogames that no other medium has.

The expectation that piece of media that is created androcentrically should look, behave and respond as if it isn't is kind of absurd when you think about it. You wouldn't see a literary critic criticise black literature for not fleshing out its white characters when they are most likely not the focus of the story and so aren't given enough varied situations to tease out character dimension. Any critic making that kind of criticism would be called racist for looking at things exclusively from the lens of their values at the cost of the message and viewpoint the writer was trying to convey (doing so suggests a kind of self-superiority/target inferiority as the critic is essentially saying that their values/viewpoint should supersede those of the creator).

I think at the end of the day that Carolyn isn't wrong in her critique (her points are mostly spot on), she is simply wrong in making it in the first place;she is the white literary critic who missed the point. When more feminists in videogames realise they are playing with boys toys (albeit mass market boys toys) the methodology and viewpoint put to work when these critiques are carried out will be revealed as misguided.

edit: Though now I think about it I don't like the idea of people not challenging or asking questions about character portrayals in games either (they totally should).  But more people should take into account the viewpoint a game is told from and respect it rather than imposing their values over it as the creator's perspective is somehow not worth giving full attention to.

I just can't take these analysis serious, if it's from research or a professor with some merit behind it i will. But not for someone that has changed their gender. The_Last_Ride

What about a research professor who changed her gender? It's ridiculous to think that having a sex change invalidates a person's opinion, but these kinds of articles are supposed to provoke thought so it doesn't really matter who they're written by. Considering what she's saying won't stop you disagreeing.

It's pretty much the best example of a mature, nuanced characterisation not only in it's genre but also the industry. And her response to it came off as a disinterested shrug that felt like she wasn't giving the game full credit for what it did do and instead zeroed in on the few minor points of what it didn't. To be fair I think part of that is that it wasn't clear that the article was part of a running series that looks specifically at games under a particular lens (I haven't seen another article like that since) so it came across as an off-the-cuff 'hey, lets be really picky and tear a game apart!' type of thing when it wasn't intended to.

To her credit, she did open my eyes to the concept of an androcentric frame. But what really bothers me is it almost sounds like the article is saying that is in and of itself a problem. Any work of art will necessarily have the view of those who make it infused in it (whether they be pro-life, right-wing or what have you) so it is inevitable that a game made by men will speak to and from their experiences. If she was seriously taking issue with the game simply because it is told from an androcentric frame then I think she is being a little too harsh and applying standards to videogames that no other medium has.

The expectation that piece of media that is created androcentrically should look, behave and respond as if it isn't is kind of absurd when you think about it. You wouldn't see a literary critic criticise black literature for not fleshing out its white characters when they are most likely not the focus of the story and so aren't given enough varied situations to tease out character dimension. Any critic making that kind of criticism would be called racist for looking at things exclusively from the lens of their values at the cost of the message and viewpoint the writer was trying to convey (doing so suggests a kind of self-superiority/target inferiority as the critic is essentially saying that their values/viewpoint should supersede those of the creator).

I think at the end of the day that Carolyn isn't wrong in her critique (her points are mostly spot on), she is simply wrong in making it in the first place;she is the white literary critic who missed the point. When more feminists in videogames realise they are playing with boys toys (albeit mass market boys toys) the methodology and viewpoint put to work when these critiques are carried out will be revealed as misguided.

edit: Though now I think about it I don't like the idea of people not challenging or asking questions about character portrayals in games either (they totally should).  But more people should take into account the viewpoint a game is told from and respect it rather than imposing their values over it as the creator's perspective is somehow not worth giving full attention to.

Articuno76

To avoid spoilers I only read the intro and conclusion so perhaps I'm way off, but it seemed to me she was using TLOU as a way of examining the industry as a whole. I think she's right that there's something wrong when a game gets showered with praise simply for showing women as actual people. My view is that there is nothing wrong with a single game doing whatever it wants, but games aren't just for boys, and some boys like games with realistic female characters, so there's really no justification for things to remain as they are with regards to the industry as a whole.

Edit: But I do feel it's important to praise a game for taking a step in the right direction so I agree that her article would have been better if she'd been more positive about TLOU.

 I think she's right that there's something wrong when a game gets showered with praise simply for showing women as actual people.

I agree that her article would have been better if she'd been more positive about TLOU.

Splatted

Agree on both counts.

I find it difficult to trust a "gender analysis" from someone who made the decision to change their gender for whatever reason.Stinger78

[QUOTE="Articuno76"]

It's pretty much the best example of a mature, nuanced characterisation not only in it's genre but also the industry. And her response to it came off as a disinterested shrug that felt like she wasn't giving the game full credit for what it did do and instead zeroed in on the few minor points of what it didn't. To be fair I think part of that is that it wasn't clear that the article was part of a running series that looks specifically at games under a particular lens (I haven't seen another article like that since) so it came across as an off-the-cuff 'hey, lets be really picky and tear a game apart!' type of thing when it wasn't intended to.

To her credit, she did open my eyes to the concept of an androcentric frame. But what really bothers me is it almost sounds like the article is saying that is in and of itself a problem. Any work of art will necessarily have the view of those who make it infused in it (whether they be pro-life, right-wing or what have you) so it is inevitable that a game made by men will speak to and from their experiences. If she was seriously taking issue with the game simply because it is told from an androcentric frame then I think she is being a little too harsh and applying standards to videogames that no other medium has.

The expectation that piece of media that is created androcentrically should look, behave and respond as if it isn't is kind of absurd when you think about it. You wouldn't see a literary critic criticise black literature for not fleshing out its white characters when they are most likely not the focus of the story and so aren't given enough varied situations to tease out character dimension. Any critic making that kind of criticism would be called racist for looking at things exclusively from the lens of their values at the cost of the message and viewpoint the writer was trying to convey (doing so suggests a kind of self-superiority/target inferiority as the critic is essentially saying that their values/viewpoint should supersede those of the creator).

I think at the end of the day that Carolyn isn't wrong in her critique (her points are mostly spot on), she is simply wrong in making it in the first place;she is the white literary critic who missed the point. When more feminists in videogames realise they are playing with boys toys (albeit mass market boys toys) the methodology and viewpoint put to work when these critiques are carried out will be revealed as misguided.

edit: Though now I think about it I don't like the idea of people not challenging or asking questions about character portrayals in games either (they totally should).  But more people should take into account the viewpoint a game is told from and respect it rather than imposing their values over it as the creator's perspective is somehow not worth giving full attention to.

Splatted

To avoid spoilers I only read the intro and conclusion so perhaps I'm way off, but it seemed to me she was using TLOU as a way of examining the industry as a whole. I think she's right that there's something wrong when a game gets showered with praise simply for showing women as actual people. My view is that there is nothing wrong with a single game doing whatever it wants, but games aren't just for boys, and some boys like games with realistic female characters, so there's really no justification for things to remain as they are with regards to the industry as a whole.

Edit: But I do feel it's important to praise a game for taking a step in the right direction so I agree that her article would have been better if she'd been more positive about TLOU.

I'm not sure the industry needs 'a justification' to be honest as that implies that the current state of things is somehow inexcusable simply because it is androcentric (look at my literary critic example to see why that line of thinking is actually destructive and disrespectful). Can there be more variety? Sure, but Carolyn is looking for it in the wrong place (games made largely by and for men) and then taking issue with it; that comes across as destructive rather than constructive criticism because Carolyn sounds like she is asking for the eradication (change) of these games to suit her needs rather than a widening of the types of games out there to suit everyones' (constructive criticism).

Again, I haven't read the article in a long time so I could be off here but I do recall thinking that when I read it. The game isn't being showered for praise just for portraying women as people, but all characters as people. This is a big deal and IMO very praise-worthy when you consider the following; games normally treat characters either as a narrative device or a gameplay function; rarely as a cognizant whole. Remember unlike movies where characters only have to fulfil a narrative function, in games they also have to fulfil a gameplay one and have their personality and experiences reflect their in-game actions. For that reason what TLoU does with it's characters is indeed praiseworthy.

When Carolyn zooms in to exclusively look just at the female characters in the game she ignores all the above and so her comments come off as if uttered in a vacuum where videogame characterisation and narrative integration are far more advanced than they really are. I seriously think Carolyn should step back and ask herself what the state of narrative and character integration in mass-market games as a whole is like before deciding it is already a given and that only women are the exception.

The article I'm talking about starts with "SPOILER WARNING: This feature discusses major plot details of The Last of Us."

http://uk.gamespot.com/features/the-last-of-us-and-grading-on-the-gender-curve-6411051/

I'm not sure the industry needs 'a justification' to be honest as that implies that the current state of things is somehow inexcusable simply because it is androcentric (look at my literary critic example to see why that line of thinking is actually destructive and disrespectful). Can there be more variety? Sure, but Carolyn is looking for it in the wrong place (games made largely by and for men) and then taking issue with it;Articuno76

Perhaps I phrased that badly. Game companies are private businesses and it's up to them what games they choose to make, but the gaming community is far more diverse than the games that are being made for them and there seems to be no good reason for this. It's not game designers or buyers that are keeping it this way, but rather a small group of company execs that decide what gets made and what doesn't. They're not making androcentric games because they enjoy them or even care about games at all, they're making them because that's what they think we're most likely to buy. This attitude is clearly demonstrated by their attempts to remove Ellie from the cover of TLOU, and we need to let them know we want other types of games too. They could be making more money and widening their consumer base, so I do think they need to justify themselves, at least to their shareholders. 

that comes across as destructive rather than constructive criticism because Carolyn sounds like she is asking for the eradication (change) of these games to suit her needs rather than a widening of the types of games out there to suit everyones' (constructive criticism). Articuno76

I can see how it could be interpated that way but I also think she might just be saying that she's still waiting for a game that goes further than the last of us. That doesn't necessarily imply that games like TLOU shouldn't be made.

Again, I haven't read the article in a long time so I could be off here but I do recall thinking that when I read it. The game isn't being showered for praise just for portraying women as people, but all characters as people. This is a big deal and IMO very praise-worthy when you consider the following; games normally treat characters either as a narrative device or a gameplay function; rarely as a cognizant whole. Remember unlike movies where characters only have to fulfil a narrative function, in games they also have to fulfil a gameplay one and have their personality and experiences reflect their in-game actions. For that reason what TLoU does with it's characters is indeed praiseworthy.

When Carolyn zooms in to exclusively look just at the female characters in the game she ignores all the above and so her comments come off as if uttered in a vacuum where videogame characterisation and narrative integration are far more advanced than they really are. I seriously think Carolyn should step back and ask herself what the state of narrative and character integration in mass-market games as a whole is like before deciding it is already a given and that only women are the exception.Articuno76

I agree with the bolded part, but TLOU did get a lot of attention for its female characters so I think it's quite reasonable to write a piece that focuses on its portrayal of women. Yes, there is room for improvement elsewhere as well, but I do think that the portrayal of women is generally even worse than the portrayal of men.

at least its not a review. her game reviews are freakin horrendous.starwarsjunky

not at all

I really can't stand people on this site taking cheap shots at Petit over her appearance, or life choices... You people seriously need to shut it. I have always found her writing to be some of the best this site has to offer, and THAT is all which should matter. Not her looks, her sex, or decisions to change any of the above.

:evil:

Don't listen to the children, CP, you have many fans on this forum. Keep up the good work!

is carolyn a man or woman? confused. . .

I think gender analysis in videogames is a waste of time. Stereotype analysis is rather trivial too. There are far more important things to write about in the gaming industry.

But hey, that's just me. My sex and other people's sex' and their representation in the media isn't really much of a concern to me, let alone when it pertains to videogames. I don't think such an analysis could be any more out of place.

I think gender analysis in videogames is a waste of time. There are far more important things to write about. But hey, that's just me. KHAndAnime

agree

Hey look, a thread where I lose all respect for some posters.MethodManFTW

I think she's right that there's something wrong when a game gets showered with praise simply for showing women as actual people.

I really can't stand people on this site taking cheap shots at Petit over her appearance, or life choices... You people seriously need to shut it. I have always found her writing to be some of the best this site has to offer, and THAT is all which should matter. Not her looks, her sex, or decisions to change any of the above.

:evil:

Don't listen to the children, CP, you have many fans on this forum. Keep up the good work!

MonkeySpot

thnx

I think gender analysis in videogames is a waste of time. Stereotype analysis is rather trivial too. There are far more important things to write about in the gaming industry.

KHAndAnime

is any discussion about gaming really important in the end?

I think gender analysis in videogames is a waste of time. Stereotype analysis is rather trivial too. >KHAndAnime

 

 

Perhaps I phrased that badly. Game companies are private businesses and it's up to them what games they choose to make, but the gaming community is far more diverse than the games that are being made for them and there seems to be no good reason for this. It's not game designers or buyers that are keeping it this way, but rather a small group of company execs that decide what gets made and what doesn't. They're not making androcentric games because they enjoy them or even care about games at all, they're making them because that's what they think we're most likely to buy. This attitude is clearly demonstrated by their attempts to remove Ellie from the cover of TLOU, and we need to let them know we want other types of games too. They could be making more money and widening their consumer base, so I do think they need to justify themselves, at least to their shareholders. 

I can see how it could be interpated that way but I also think she might just be saying that she's still waiting for a game that goes further than the last of us. That doesn't necessarily imply that games like TLOU shouldn't be made.

[QUOTE="Articuno76"]Again, I haven't read the article in a long time so I could be off here but I do recall thinking that when I read it. The game isn't being showered for praise just for portraying women as people, but all characters as people. This is a big deal and IMO very praise-worthy when you consider the following; games normally treat characters either as a narrative device or a gameplay function; rarely as a cognizant whole. Remember unlike movies where characters only have to fulfil a narrative function, in games they also have to fulfil a gameplay one and have their personality and experiences reflect their in-game actions. For that reason what TLoU does with it's characters is indeed praiseworthy.

When Carolyn zooms in to exclusively look just at the female characters in the game she ignores all the above and so her comments come off as if uttered in a vacuum where videogame characterisation and narrative integration are far more advanced than they really are. I seriously think Carolyn should step back and ask herself what the state of narrative and character integration in mass-market games as a whole is like before deciding it is already a given and that only women are the exception.Splatted

I agree with the bolded part, but TLOU did get a lot of attention for its female characters so I think it's quite reasonable to write a piece that focuses on its portrayal of women. Yes, there is room for improvement elsewhere as well, but I do think that the portrayal of women is generally even worse than the portrayal of men.

I think that people point out "strong" female characters in gaming because even though we've got prime examples dating back to Vasquez in "ALIENS", as representatives in popular media of an "Alpha-Female"... And before her, even... Who can forget Barbara Stanwyck? The unfortunate truth is that women are often criticized or castigated if they show the strength they have, from men, and then too, especially, from other WOMEN.

There is a double standard 8-Ball women are stuck behind, at least in most Western cultures. Damned-If-They-Do/Don't.

I have always loved characters like Black Widow who didn't have any super powers, but she could still hold her own against Iron Man or even The Hulk, and I'm glad they're getting some boost now as legit parts of the Marvel universe... Gone are the days of Sue Storm worrying about her hair during a battle, and just being there for Mr. Fantastic to save from harm... But the reality of it is that these women and their real-life counterparts are relatively new to the scene (Hell, the Suffragette movement was only the end of the 19th and into the early 20th century), so they are still catalysts for discussion.

It'll take another century or so before folks stop talking about it.

:roll:

[QUOTE="Stinger78"]I find it difficult to trust a "gender analysis" from someone who made the decision to change their gender for whatever reason.Dysantic

The gender of the author is irrelevant. The point is the author never actually played the game. If they did, they know Ellie is not a weak character and is not portrayed as some damsel in distress. I don't want to post spoilers but play through Winter and you'll see how Ellie is one incredibly brave and strong woman. Carolyn seems to write lots of articles talking about how games portray women in a negative way.. and it's simply not true.Rattlesnake_8

[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"]I just can't take these analysis serious, if it's from research or a professor with some merit behind it i will. But not for someone that has changed their gender. Splatted

What about a research professor who changed her gender? It's ridiculous to think that having a sex change invalidates a person's opinion, but these kinds of articles are supposed to provoke thought so it doesn't really matter who they're written by. Considering what she's saying won't stop you disagreeing.

I really can't stand people on this site taking cheap shots at Petit over her appearance, or life choices... You people seriously need to shut it. I have always found her writing to be some of the best this site has to offer, and THAT is all which should matter. Not her looks, her sex, or decisions to change any of the above.

:evil:

Don't listen to the children, CP, you have many fans on this forum. Keep up the good work!

MonkeySpot

Couldn't agree more.  

[QUOTE="Dysantic"]

[QUOTE="Stinger78"]I find it difficult to trust a "gender analysis" from someone who made the decision to change their gender for whatever reason.MrSelf-Destruct

DOUCHECEPTION!!

[QUOTE="Dysantic"]

[QUOTE="Stinger78"]I find it difficult to trust a "gender analysis" from someone who made the decision to change their gender for whatever reason.MrSelf-Destruct

Lol. Ok, I'll listen to someone who without a doubt lived at least their first 18 years life as a man and then changed that to live the rest of their life as a woman write an editorial about gender analysis in a video game. Would you want to hear about why a cat chases mice from a cow? It's just backwards thinking. Call me sexist, call it whatever you want, but a man, born a man, and a woman, born a woman, who writes an article about gender analysis at least has a background in that analysis having lived their entire life as that gender. They have a vast well of knowledge about the hardships or advantages from their own experiences and struggles throughout their entire life. They also have a definite point of view on the subject. In this case, we have a writer who has experienced the complete opposite type of life and has a wildly different point of view on gender than most others. I'm not saying its invalid, just that I don't beleive the proper background is present in order to make a credible statement about the subject.

Thanks for your analysis though. In this case, I guess you are the expert about douchebags. You seem to think very deeply about them.

 [QUOTE="Rattlesnake_8"]The gender of the author is irrelevant. The point is the author never actually played the game. If they did, they know Ellie is not a weak character and is not portrayed as some damsel in distress. I don't want to post spoilers but play through Winter and you'll see how Ellie is one incredibly brave and strong woman. Carolyn seems to write lots of articles talking about how games portray women in a negative way.. and it's simply not true.Articuno76

I find it difficult to trust a "gender analysis" from someone who made the decision to change their gender for whatever reason.Stinger78

I don't find issue with anyones portrayal in that game. Some of the female characters may have been two dimensional or whatever, but that's how I see it for most characters in current video game stories. There might be a few main characters that are well written and that have depth, and everyone else is just there to assist in the presentation of the main story or characters.

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to Beyond Two Souls. Looking at videos, the main protagonist looks like an intriguing person, who also happens to be a female. If the game turns out to be good, hopefully people will just focus on the posative traits of the character, and not worry on gender issues. I'd like to see it become less and less of an issue with future games that might have female leads.