Valve is the new EA?

I don't think Valve is the new EA, Ubisoft is the new EA, EA is currently in the process of changing. But I can't help but feel that EA had a hand in bring L4D2 earlier than anticipated. I think they talked Valve into releasing what was essentially DLC as a full game. The same thing happened with Crysis and Crysis Wars, the multiplayer part was sold with Warhead as Crysis Wars. Everyone in the Crysis community knows that Crysis Wars is really just patch 1.3 from Crysis, but Crytek chose to sell it instead of giving it out for free. I also think that EA executives talked to Crytek and offered the idea of selling the game as opposed to givign it away for free. The same way that EA talked Valve into selling the would be DLC as a full game. If someone comes to you and gives you a fail proof idea that will gain you more money, you'd be a fool not to use that idea. Yes you may tarnish your reputation a bit but that's just part of the deal.

But the thing that is happening is that PC Gaming is not at the forefront anymore, the consoles are top priority now for many genres including RPG and FPS, which were once dominated and prioritized for the PC gaming audience. Even a game that was in development for 4+ years and thought to be PC only was delayed even longer just so that it can sell more copies on the consoles, Dragon Age. PC gaming will never bring in as much money as the console systems where even crappy games sell a minimum of 3 to 4 million

As far as my opinion about L4D2, I own L4D1 and my friends and I beat all of the campaigns pretty quickly and have not touched the game since. So L4D2 isn't really anything exciting for me. All that I've seen so far is crappy character designs and weapons that I can model and animate myself, not very exciting ;/.

Valve will never become EA. Valve takes care of the games they make and they release quality titles. Titles where you can see work has been put into them and ur not paying 50$ for a brand name. On top of that Valve takes care of its employees, which in the end brings us better games. EA buys out a lot of the companies and kills them off, and with that being said kills off a lot of great games.

My main problem with the announcement of L4D2 is that L4D was a bad game. There's really nothing to it aside from the zombie setting which has geeks and nerds like us salivating over. But beyond that the game is extremely bland. We have linear levels, we have limited weapons, and even with supposed revolutionary "AI director" encounters are always the same. Just because the horde spawns from the left side of the street instead of the right doesn't make it a whole new experience.

What you end up with is maps that are not particulrly fun to play more than a couple of times, enemies which becomes predictable (You know when there's a witc, you know when there's a tank) because you know they'll always be around at some point, and with the horde, you know they're always going to pop up every couple of minutes.

Even with the free content we saw more of the same. We got a few more levels and game modes, but essentially the exact same gameplay is still there.

Then we get told "Oh hey, guys, there's a new L4D" and we're left wondering why we still don;t have any REAL new content in the first game, like a lot of us thought we'd have. Where are the new exciting maps (movies), new guns? etc.

On top of that, L4D looks EXACTLY the same as the original. It's suffering from rehash syndrome (SEe EA Game--Need for Speed, every EA Sports game--Guitar Hero, Modern Warfare and to an extent Call of Duty, Medal of honour etc). Not only, visually, does it look identical, but the gameplay is identical. All we're seeing are new skins for characters, and new weapons, both of which could easily be free content.

The only way we can really, truely say to Valve "Okay, I understand" is because of the time that goes into making this content which is why I personally think that Left4Dead 2 should be more along the lines of an expansion pack, not a sequel. If it was an expansion pack I could very easily see why people would go for it. But as a full game? I think we've already played Left 4 Dead 2: It was called Left 4 Dead.

Welcome to the new internet trend.

Before E3 2009 Valve was to be a company PC players used to love.

Enter L4D2 (by the way does that not reminds you of R2D2 ?)

Now Valve stepped on and spit in everything PC gamers used to love about Valve.

Is it not funny how a company can ruin their reputation and turn it around from 100% to -100% in one day ?

Valve is now the company gamers love to hate.

It would be funny to see how the buisness development at Valve will justify this move ? Quickly selling few game copies , but in turn ruining company reputation and destroy long term revenues?

Do you think a gaming company can ever recover from this ?

Lobo

Lobotomist

I bought left 4 dead 1 for $50, and I only just recieved the complete game with the surivival pack (should have been included to begin with). So unless L4D2 costs $20-30, there's no way in hell I'm picking it up.

Who cares. A new game is out therfor there more fun to be had. Why is everybody crying over it. Oh no $50 wah wah. A price hasnt even been said. Also there is going to be MORE content then there is the first L4D. And would it really matter if the game came out next year. a new COD comes out once a year and people dont complain about that?

lol... Left 4 Dead 2 is going to be an incredible game. The business decision can be comparable to EA, but we should still wait and see how this process over the months. Valve is by far one of the best developers in the PC space. But, I must be honest, I won't be buying L4D 2 if the retail price is at 50$.

My prediction is that Valve will respond to this whole mess by making L4D2 into a $20-$30 dollar expansion pack. I'm pretty sure they've listened to the community before, and I think they're a cool enough company to admit when they get things wrong.

Could happen. You never know.

I also find it hillarious that everyones bashing valve for being teh "new EA" yet not a single person mentions ActivisionBlizzard, who by the end of 2009 will have released 18 guitar hero games in teh course of 4 years.

seriousley people,g et some **** sense and stop overreacting and behaving like preschoolers.

My prediction is that Valve will respond to this whole mess by making L4D2 into a $20-$30 dollar expansion pack. I'm pretty sure they've listened to the community before, and I think they're a cool enough company to admit when they get things wrong.

Could happen. You never know.

dos4gw82

Not really, they said it will be treated as a new game, the price will be as any regular game, so that means around 50$, no matter how you look at it it won't be unde 40$.

Here's the Shack interview:

Shack: EA Partners helped publish the first Left 4 Dead, but yesterday's announcement didn't mention any publishing partner. Who's publishing?

Doug Lombardi: We haven't announced it yet.

Shack: But there is a publisher?

Doug Lombardi: There will be before we ship.

Shack: When did development on Left 4 Dead 2 start?

Chet Faliszek: Pretty much after Left 4 Dead launched.

One of the other things is.. we've all played [Left 4 Dead] now, we all play it now, we see things like [players] stacking in the corner and stuff, and we want to avoid it.

And also, we've got the marrying of the storytelling and the multiplayer. I think we did a good job with that on Left 4 Dead, but we think we're going to do a better job on Left 4 Dead 2. Part of that was we wanted to start with fresh new characters, fresh new setting, and follow their story as it goes across all of New Orleans. And all of this we are able to do because we have the AI director, which allows us to create these spaces and these events, and then it does kind of the hard work of creating that experience side of it.

Shack: Why did you decide to package the game as a full sequel, rather than DLC?

Chet Faliszek: So one of the things is, when we're looking at a map--

[Gabe Newell stops by to say hello, then quickly enters a private room.]

Chet Faliszek: In Team Fortress you can do one map, and it's a standalone map and it tells its internal story and you're good. In Left 4 Dead, when we started talking about new characters, all of a sudden we were talking about maps, then all of a sudden we were talking about campaign, and then director 2.0, hey, we're in the swamps.

And now we have to have new creatures in the game, we actually have dynamic pathing--we have all this stuff, and these aren't just incremental changes. These are big, technical changes. And to get that, and to hit our big mantra--making sure that the best way to play it is the funnest way to play it.

So, being Left 4 Dead 2, we have five campaigns, they're all going to have Versus and Survival mode out of the gate, as well as the regular co-op, and an all-new game mode. Not talking about that game mode yet, but it's going to be there. We also have the new Infected, like you can play the Charger right now in Versus. We have another one coming out a little later, and then another after that. We've got the melee weapons involved, we've got the chainsaw--we've got the frying pan.

Doug Lombardi: We didn't start off saying, "Hey, let's make a sequel for next year." We started off saying, "There's a bunch of really cool ideas. Let's put 'em all up on a whiteboard and figure out what's the best way to put these together and get them out there." And that's really fundamentally how Valve thinks about stuff. It's not like, "Oh, we need a product in this quarter," or whatever. We're not publicly traded; we don't have any of those weird pressures.

Shack: Will updates for the original Left 4 Dead continue?

Chet Faliszek: Looking at Left 4 Dead 1, we have updates still coming out for it. Next week we'll be talking about the community map update, so that's coming. There's some other stuff we're not talking about yet, that's coming for that, that will explain why the Left 4 Dead SDK tools are different from previous ones. And then we still have four vs. four matchmaking coming. So we're not putting that to bed yet.

Shack: How will Left 4 Dead 2 interface with Left 4 Dead 1, if at all?

Doug Lombardi: We haven't really worked it all out yet. It's likely that it will be different on the different platforms. We really haven't made any final decisions, but it is something that we're looking at, and we understand that it's something that is on people's minds, and that there are more elegant ways to do it than others.

Some of the things that we're doing that we can talk about already is that, if you're using the SDK and making maps, it will work for either game. So we've got one or two elegant points that we can talk about now. [laughs]

Shack: What price-point should we expect?

Doug Lombardi: This is a full sequel.

Shack: So full price?

Doug Lombardi: Yeah. At the end of the day, this is going to be a bigger game than Left 4 Dead. It's five campaigns versus four, all five are playable in Versus mode, Survival mode out of the box, the new multiplayer game mode. Plus over 20 new weapons and items. It's a full sequel.

Doug Lombardi: [laughs] Don't have a new date. Since we missed the last time, I'm not gonna put out another one. I've said this before, but Freeman's not done with his adventure. Stay tuned for more.

Shack: Can you talk more about the changes to the dynamic systems in Left 4 Dead 2?

Chet Faliszek: So, the AI director, there are some really noticeable ones. We're giving it control over the weather now. Now you go from [a sunny day] to holy crap man, I can't see anyone around me. It's like the Blood Harvest cornfield, right.

Dynamic pathing changes--so in the next map in this campaign, they go through an above-ground cemetery, a haunted old cemetery with crypts above ground, and it actually changes the path every time you play. And also how spawning the creatures, and the pacing of the game.

One of the things we look at with people playing online, are people playing the game--the stacking in the corner.. that sucks.

Shack: Absolutely.

Chet Faliszek: It sucks that there are people that don't play it that way, and they get yelled at.

Shack: Oh, I know. I'm always the guy--there are the three guys in the corner, and then I'm the guy standing over there, and they say, "Come onnn!"

Chet Faliszek: The way you want to play it, the fun way, is the best way to play it, too. So to do that, there are just a lot of subtle changes to make, in how the director handles what it's going to spawn, and how it thinks about attacking the survivors.

Shack: How are you accounting for the additional boss Infected in Versus mode?

Chet Faliszek: So that's probably what we're spending the most iteration time on. We just have outside players coming in all the time. We had a lot of ideas early on that we wanted to try. Some of them just failed. Some of them sucked. The Charger is a winner. We've got another one that we're almost done with that's good as well. There's a third coming out.

Shack: So, there are five campaigns. What's the chance of a mall level?

Chet Faliszek: A mall?

Shack: A mall.

Chet Faliszek: Maybe it could start in a mall or something. We'll see.

Shack: How about a ferris wheel?

Chet Faliszek: Are you guys taking pictures from our office or something? Um.. [laughs] There's some stuff we'll be talking about later.

Shack: Flamethrower? Not saying?

Chet Faliszek: No. We like fire though.

Shack: Did I notice an improved fire effect?

Chet Faliszek: Yeah.

Shack: It seems like it travels from zombie to zombie.

Chet Faliszek: No, so incendiary ammo, when you're shooting it gives the appearance of that. We have a lot of examples [of fire] here. In this case, we've got a guy in a hazmat suit, and he doesn't catch fire. In one campaign, we have an area of guys in hazmat suits, and all of a sudden your molotovs are [useless].

One of the things all of us do on our team is, we all have different accounts we play Left 4 Dead on. I was just playing it first as Chet, and my games would never be empty, and all these things would happen, and I was like, wait a minute. These people know who I am. And so let's create fake accounts, and see what that experience is like, and we get a lot more information based on that. So be nice. You might be playing with me.

Shack: What are you guys doing about ragequitting?

Chet Faliszek: We kind of did a lot of research on that, where's that happening, what's the lobby makeup before that happens. And one of the thing we noticed is four players that know eachother on one side versus four pubbies. And so that's why we're going to have four vs. four matchmaking come out, and that's actually going to come out in Left 4 Dead 1, and that should be.. probably this month?

Shack: Are you leaving any hooks in the engine to allow for expansion in patches rather than releasing a new sequel?

Chet Faliszek: I think all this, oh, Valve's going to make Maddens every year--that's not true. There's this whole group of us at Valve who had all these ideas. When we get done with this, we're going to sit back and we have no future plans or anything like that. This could be the platform for zombie apocalypse games for a while. One of the cool things that Doug was saying, current maps, they're being made to drop in, they work. Obviously if you want to take advantage of the new director stuff you'll have to go back in and touch some stuff up, but they'll just work.

Shack: Is there a chance we could see the original Left 4 Dead campaigns imported into Left 4 Dead 2?

Chet Faliszek: There is a chance for that. Like Doug said, we're trying to figure out the way that makes the most sense for that to happen.

Shack: How long ago was the voice work done?

Chet Faliszek: So Nick, he's voice acted by Hugh Dylan, who is on Flashpoint on CBS on Friday nights. Catch it! I think the big people's reaction on the voice acting has been on--have you guys watched The Wire?

Shack: Yeah.

Chet Faliszek: You know coach Cutty [character Dennis "Cutty" Wise on The Wire, played by Chad L. Coleman], the guy that works with the boxing kids? He voices Coach.

Shack: No way. That's amazing.

Chet Faliszek: It was great. We got to go out to hang out with him.

We did the voice work, I guess a month ago? So we went out, he's actually on a play right now--actually Obama went to see it the other day, so that's good company. I'm just going to make you cry: we went to go see him backstage afterward, we were like hey thanks, that was a great session yesterday, it was a lot of fun. What are you guys doing? Oh, we're going to go out for drinks. Oh, where are you going? So we got to hang out with Cutty for a couple hours, and probably he'll never want to hang out with us again, because we just drilled him about The Wire.

Shack: That's great. The Wire is a fantastic show.

Chet Faliszek: We need to get the Clay Davis "sheeeeeeiiiit" in there.

Oh boy, Valve decided to release one sequel a little earlier than people are used to get raged at for milking the franchise and called the new EA.

Yeah I'm looking forward to Team Fortress 2009, Half Life 2009, Counter Strike 2009, Portal 2009, Day of Defeat 2009 which are all surely going to be released this year I'm thinking July-October for a nice premium price of $60 each. No way in hell I'm getting a game with twice as much content than the previous game eh? It's laughable I could see some form of "Orange" box in the future where they bundle a few games together for $60? Nah this is the new EA and they won't do that.

Yeah the newEA, next sequel to be announced by any company will probably get branded the New EA knowing the community.

A full priced sequel apparently...

After Half-Life, VALVe released two (Gearbox developed) expansions that were a) mediocre and b) collectively half as long as Half-Life and c) collectively more expensive than Half-Life.

After Half-Life 2, VALVe released two expansions that were a) mediocre and b) collectively shorter than Half-Life 2 by a bit and c) collectively more expensive than Half-Life 2.

Left 4 Dead 2 is:

a) as good or better than Left 4 Dead. This is a presumption and is open to discussion. I'm fairly sure it'll be better.

b) longer than Left 4 Dead in terms of quantity of maps, game modes and general features, and

c) the same price.

I think it completely sucks that VALVe is doing the EA/Activision thing (for one game, anyway), but just look at the above. In terms of what it is, what you get and how much you pay, L4D2 is better value for money, and probably better as a game relative to L4D, than the HL1 expansions combined (relative to Half-Life) and the HL2 expansions combined (relative to HL2).

So essentially, people who are fine with VALVe's expansions but aren't fine with L4D2 think it's fine to be overcharged for mediocre content over a period of years, but to be appropriately charged for high quality content all at once is... bad?

Now, sure, Gabe did promise L4D players new weapons, game modes, boss zombies and so forth, but the existence of L4D2 doesn't preclude the continuing support of L4D, does it? Granted, it makes it seem less likely, but VALVe is still publicly promising new updates for L4D.

Right now I'm happy to take them at their word that L4D will continue to see updates, and while I probably won't buy L4D2 until it hits the $30 mark (as I'm still avidly playing L4D) I'm interested in the game.

Has VALVe tarnished its image a little? Sure. Is VALVe the new EA? No way.

L4D went from a promising unfinished game to a cash cow franchise that caters to manbabies.

If you're praising L4D2 you might as well either give me your money or flush it down the toilet. You're not responsible enough to handle your own money, or should have the right to vote.

How dare you even question Valve!

Valve follows the proper principles of Marketing : they will never let their customers down.

Even if L4D2 ends up becoming a flop, then I'd say it'd been Valve's first flop ever and everyone makes mistakes. And I am sure Valve would learn their lesson when the time comes unless an unexpected announcement is given.

Give me any Valve game up to this date that ever really sucked or has make customers very angry.

After Half-Life, VALVe released two (Gearbox developed) expansions that were a) mediocre and b) collectively half as long as Half-Life and c) collectively more expensive than Half-Life.

After Half-Life 2, VALVe released two expansions that were a) mediocre and b) collectively shorter than Half-Life 2 by a bit and c) collectively more expensive than Half-Life 2.

Left 4 Dead 2 is:

a) as good or better than Left 4 Dead. This is a presumption and is open to discussion. I'm fairly sure it'll be better.

b) longer than Left 4 Dead in terms of quantity of maps, game modes and general features, and

c) the same price.

I think it completely sucks that VALVe is doing the EA/Activision thing (for one game, anyway), but just look at the above. In terms of what it is, what you get and how much you pay, L4D2 is better value for money, and probably better as a game relative to L4D, than the HL1 expansions combined (relative to Half-Life) and the HL2 expansions combined (relative to HL2).

So essentially, people who are fine with VALVe's expansions but aren't fine with L4D2 think it's fine to be overcharged for mediocre content over a period of years, but to be appropriately charged for high quality content all at once is... bad?

Now, sure, Gabe did promise L4D players new weapons, game modes, boss zombies and so forth, but the existence of L4D2 doesn't preclude the continuing support of L4D, does it? Granted, it makes it seem less likely, but VALVe is still publicly promising new updates for L4D.

Right now I'm happy to take them at their word that L4D will continue to see updates, and while I probably won't buy L4D2 until it hits the $30 mark (as I'm still avidly playing L4D) I'm interested in the game.

Has VALVe tarnished its image a little? Sure. Is VALVe the new EA? No way.

parasitesingle

Except that HL2EP2 is, by far, the best Half-life 2 content I've played. It is far better than anything on HL2. I would agree with you on HL2EP1 though, that was pretty mediocre, but HL2EP2 is a whole different beast.

Basically Valve sold original L4D - a very content limited , unfinished and still experimental game - for 50$

Under false pretense that they will continue supporting it with new maps, weapons, game mods and gameplay tweaks.
Same as they did with Counter Strike, DOD, TF2 ...

But in fact (which is now shockingly revealed) Valve started to make L4D2 in same moment they released L4D1.So instead of working on fixing the just released game, they immidiately started planning to sell the FIXED game as NEW game.

L4D2 is what Valve promised to be free updates to L4D, all rolled in one package.

Now if that doesnt irk you. And if you payed for L4D and still want to buy L4D2. Fine for you.

But just read forums all over internet and you will notice lot of angry posts. This was unusual for Valve.

All i am saying they lost a lot of rep, and it will hurt them much more than what they will earn from L4D2 (that will never reach even 1/4 of L4D sales)

Lobotomist

Wow...there's a few posts here and I'm not sure I'll make it through all of them, but....

You do realize that a lot of companies do this, but very few tend to mention they are doing so. By the time the first game comes out, they set into motion of creating - hold your breath here and wait to be surprised! - another game! [the crowd gasps in disbelief]

A small handful of people will be put on the job of coninuting updating and improving Left 4 Dead up until some decided time in the future (6 months, 1 year, 2 years...whatever the company sees fit).

Do you think car companies, once they finish a new model of car and get them built and distributed out, just sit back and wait for a year before they start the process again? Heck no! Once a model is given an okay, the designers go back to the drawing board and improve/remake the next year's model.

How about Microsoft? Do you honestly think that Windows 7 is keeping them from having a small group of people scheming up the next OS version?

Companies that are out to make money are constantly work on improving their current projects, on projects they just released and are working on future projects.

It's part of doing business, so I don't understand why you're upset about it because they have been working on improving Left 4 Dead, haven't they? I could see your point if they released a half-assed game and never fixed problems with it, but from what I've seen they seem to be doing just that - fixing the game and adding to it.

L4D went from a promising unfinished game to a cash cow franchise that caters to manbabies.

If you're praising L4D2 you might as well either give me your money or flush it down the toilet. You're not responsible enough to handle your own money, or should have the right to vote.

dbd333

OP's argument doesn't stand against the huge amount of free DLC these guys work so hard to put out, their sensational special sales and the constant quality of each release.

You don't even know the pricetag. Comparing Valve to EA because they're making a new L4D is pretty tasteless - is it not like Activision releasing a new Call of Duty game every year?

They should have gone the way of CD Projekt with The Witcher Enhanced Edition. Making it a free update for those who already have the game.

Look at my sig to see my feelings on the matter.

Look at my sig to see my feelings on the matter.

Jodan77

Wow.....I cant belive people are really this ignorant, blind EA hate, how many games does ea spam out? not many aside from sports titles, which every company that makes them does, on teh other hand, ActivisionBlizzard are set to release 5, count it 5 guitar heroe games THIS YEAR ALONE, since late 2003, theres been 10 CoD games, thats more than 1 a year, so please, stop being stupid, theres not a single thread about boycotting guitar hero yet theres at least 3 threads on teh front pagea lone about L4D2.

All this whiney L4D2 internet hate only shows how stupid people really are, and how they will overreact to pretty much anything.

Look at my sig to see my feelings on the matter.

Jodan77

Oh, I'd wish Valve was EA, churning out new and original IPs, delivering flawless ports and much improved sequels.

After Half-Life, VALVe released two (Gearbox developed) expansions that were a) mediocre and b) collectively half as long as Half-Life and c) collectively more expensive than Half-Life.

parasitesingle

Wow.....I cant belive people are really this ignorant, blind EA hate, how many games does ea spam out? not many aside from sports titles, which every company that makes them does, on teh other hand, ActivisionBlizzard are set to release 5, count it 5 guitar heroe games THIS YEAR ALONE, since late 2003, theres been 10 CoD games, thats more than 1 a year, so please, stop being stupid, theres not a single thread about boycotting guitar hero yet theres at least 3 threads on teh front pagea lone about L4D2.

All this whiney L4D2 internet hate only shows how stupid people really are, and how they will overreact to pretty much anything.

warmaster670

I was thinking up a big reply towards the OP and some of the other people in the thread, but I guess you saved me some time :)

I don't hate Valve, and I still have faith that they'll realize how stupid this is and offer L4D2 to PC gamers at a significantly reduced price. Personally I'm not going to get it unless they offerit free to those who bought the first game, because everything they've announced new to L4D2 is stuff that they promised us as free downloadable content a la TF2 anyways. I am, however, really angry at Valve for pulling something like this, because frankly, they're better than this. Valve has long been a shining example of what game companies should be; they focus on quality and make sure that their games are the best they can be at launch, they offer great deals and low prices on practically everything they touch (Orang Box, Steam Weekend sales, etc.), and they're responsible for plenty of innovation in the industry itself(Steam).

Ever since they released L4D, though, they've been making alot of stupid decisions. Recap:

-Everyone I know agrees that L4D wasn't really finished or worth the full $50 when it came out, but bought it on good faith that they'd improve it dramatically with content updates (that still haven't come)

- The new item unlock system in TF2 has gotten nothing but negative feedback, from what I've heard

-In the 1 1/2 years since The Orange Box was released there has been no information on HL2: Ep 3 whatsoever. Episodic my ass...

-They've now announced a sequel to L4D set to release within a year of the original, which is now starting to look alot like an overpriced demo...

Valve really needs to get their act together, straighten out their priorities, and start focusing on games that their customers want rather than pushing out glorified expansions to games that were little better than mods in the first place. We can't afford to lose one of our best companies to the same kind of crap that everyone else pulls.

It looks like Valve will keep selling half-life 2 mods for $50 until people stop buying them. I suppose I don't mind this since I wait a few months to buy them discounted anyways.

Hopefully they are investing some of those profits into a new engine because source is really looking dated.

I don't hate Valve, and I still have faith that they'll realize how stupid this is and offer L4D2 to PC gamers at a significantly reduced price. Personally I'm not going to get it unless they offerit free to those who bought the first game, because everything they've announced new to L4D2 is stuff that they promised us as free downloadable content a la TF2 anyways.

Mediocre_man90

please, point me to teh announcment that all of teh stuff in L4D2 would be DLC for L4D? oh ya you cant, more people assuming things they know nothing about.

This is the MINIMUM stuff you will get in L4D2:

- 5 New Campaigns
- 5 New Versus Campaigns (samething than "5 new campaigns", dont count it double)
- Lots of new Survival maps (SAME thing)
- A whole new game mode (lose the whole, please, try to act objective, at least)
- Tweaked current special infected to make them more deadly (you mean the equivalent of a patch?)
- New infected such as the Wandering Witch or the Charger (If not more) (charger was a community idea, basically, valve didnt have much to do, for proof, go on the game's forums)
- 4 New Characters (four new skins)
- Hours and Hours of new conversations between the new characters. (hours? This is notoblivion, how about you open "sound" next time and try to check exactly how mch conversation there is on l4d(1) next time?)
- New common infected
- Different ammo types (normal.....and flame ammo.flame effect on enemies, which was already in l4d by the existence of molotovs, etc.)
- New Melee weapons
- New guns in general
- A whole STORYLINE this time round, and not just random "movies" (about time)
- Probably a new difficulty level (nothing special, thats random number generators there)
- New finales and crescendo events (comes with the new campaigns, why are you counting this as a separate thing?)
- Lots of game fixes and bug fixes and common mistakes fixed from the 1st L4D such as no more Shiva stacking, no more closetting and so on. (patch, anyone?)
- Made the game more brutal and gory (where you getting that from?)
- And probably lots of other super cool features that we would all love. (uh? Sure is a selling point there!)

Oh noez this is teh new Madden!

Baranga

[QUOTE="Mediocre_man90"]

I don't hate Valve, and I still have faith that they'll realize how stupid this is and offer L4D2 to PC gamers at a significantly reduced price. Personally I'm not going to get it unless they offerit free to those who bought the first game, because everything they've announced new to L4D2 is stuff that they promised us as free downloadable content a la TF2 anyways.

warmaster670

please, point me to teh announcment that all of teh stuff in L4D2 would be DLC for L4D? oh ya you cant, more people assuming things they know nothing about.

http://www.left4deadforums.com/662-new-weapons-levels-even-boss-zombies.html

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/900/900767p1.html

more people assuming things they know nothing about

warmaster670

[QUOTE="Mediocre_man90"]

I don't hate Valve, and I still have faith that they'll realize how stupid this is and offer L4D2 to PC gamers at a significantly reduced price. Personally I'm not going to get it unless they offerit free to those who bought the first game, because everything they've announced new to L4D2 is stuff that they promised us as free downloadable content a la TF2 anyways.

warmaster670

please, point me to teh announcment that all of teh stuff in L4D2 would be DLC for L4D? oh ya you cant, more people assuming things they know nothing about.

Actually, I can. Here:

http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=Valve+Details+Post+Left+4+Dead+Launch+Plans&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

it doesn't want to load for me right now, but that's the link everyone's posting in the Steam forums. One quote in particular stands out:

"we'll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we'll have the initial release and then we'll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that's the way you continue to grow a community over time."

Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it? What was it that Left 4 Dead 2 offers again? More Characters, weapons, and campaigns? An upgrade to the AI director that could be implemented with a simple patch? If the link doesn't work for you, and you still think I'm pulling it all out of my ass, here's a video of Doug Lombardi saying what I quoted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u4rNH9cqIM&feature=related

I got both links very quickly by just scanning the Steam forums. Just look for the locked threads. What was it you said about assuming things you know nothing about, again?

EDIT:

Okay, three more links detailing Valve's plans for downloadable content:

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/41219/Left-4-Dead-DLC-Promised

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/i_left4dead_pc360

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=986

And Valve's stance on free content updates:

http://kotaku.com/gaming/as-the-valve-turns/valve-keeps-dlc-free-262573.php

To add to that, there are "types" of ammo, not just fire, they revealed only incendiary ammo for now.

Also Baranga noted all that I consider irrelevant, but here's what I consider to be the "good thing" about L4D 2, what makes it worth it:

"Introducing the AI Director 2.0, L4D's dynamic gameplay is taken to the next level by giving the Director the ability to procedurally change weather effects, world objects, and pathways in addition to tailoring the enemy population, effects, and sounds to match the players' performance. The result is a unique game session custom fitted to provide a satisfying and uniquely challenging experience each time the game is played."

If I were Valve I would charge 50$ only for this, the A.I Director 2, because that's something that pretty much no other FPS game can do, we don't know exactly how randomly generated the levels can be, with their paths and all, but if they actually managed to make it work, it;s (imo) a groundbreaking achievement in the FPS world, Diablo's randomly generated dungeons are nothing compared to it (till D3, maybe).

Maps can be done by the community, special infected too and player models (if Valve gives them the tools for that) but that's pretty much the most important "tangible" addition, that and new, varied, normal infected.

Valve is not milking the Left 4 Dead series until it reaches Left 4 Dead 4 2011. I'm a pc gamer and I still love Valve. Don't lump all the pc gamers hating valve because they done this. They never charge money for DLC.

[QUOTE="warmaster670"]

[QUOTE="Mediocre_man90"]

please, point me to teh announcment that all of teh stuff in L4D2 would be DLC for L4D? oh ya you cant, more people assuming things they know nothing about.

Swiftstrike5

http://www.left4deadforums.com/662-new-weapons-levels-even-boss-zombies.html

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/900/900767p1.html

more people assuming things they know nothing about

warmaster670

there is 0 things stating that they wont be bringing new weapons/characters/bosses to L4D.

[QUOTE="warmaster670"]

[QUOTE="Mediocre_man90"]

I don't hate Valve, and I still have faith that they'll realize how stupid this is and offer L4D2 to PC gamers at a significantly reduced price. Personally I'm not going to get it unless they offerit free to those who bought the first game, because everything they've announced new to L4D2 is stuff that they promised us as free downloadable content a la TF2 anyways.

Mediocre_man90

please, point me to teh announcment that all of teh stuff in L4D2 would be DLC for L4D? oh ya you cant, more people assuming things they know nothing about.

Actually, I can. Here:

http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=Valve+Details+Post+Left+4+Dead+Launch+Plans&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

it doesn't want to load for me right now, but that's the link everyone's posting in the Steam forums. One quote in particular stands out:

"we'll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we'll have the initial release and then we'll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that's the way you continue to grow a community over time."

Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it? What was it that Left 4 Dead 2 offers again? More Characters, weapons, and campaigns? An upgrade to the AI director that could be implemented with a simple patch? If the link doesn't work for you, and you still think I'm pulling it all out of my ass, here's a video of Doug Lombardi saying what I quoted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u4rNH9cqIM&feature=related

I got both links very quickly by just scanning the Steam forums. Just look for the locked threads. What was it you said about assuming things you know nothing about, again?

Alright, now point me to the link where they promised for L4D all the specific things that are in L4D2, and not just generic things like maps and weapons.

Unless i see something claiming that things such as a new orleans level, different ammo types, wandering witches, or whatever else has been shown, my point stands.

[QUOTE="Swiftstrike5"]

[QUOTE="warmaster670"]

http://www.left4deadforums.com/662-new-weapons-levels-even-boss-zombies.html

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/900/900767p1.html

[QUOTE="warmaster670"]

more people assuming things they know nothing about

warmaster670

there is 0 things stating that they wont be bringing new weapons/characters/bosses to L4D.

[QUOTE="warmaster670"]

[QUOTE="Swiftstrike5"]

Swiftstrike5

there is 0 things stating that they wont be bringing new weapons/characters/bosses to L4D.

Do you have a link to where Valve said they would be working on such things for Left 4 Dead? If anyone does, I'd like to read it for myself.

[QUOTE="Swiftstrike5"][QUOTE="warmaster670"]that has nothing to do with what i said, i wanted a link to something where they said the stuff in L4D2 was gonna be in L4D, which that isnt, all that says is stuff about levels characters and weapons, and while those things are in L4D2, theres nothing tehre about teh stuff thats in L4D2.

there is 0 things stating that they wont be bringing new weapons/characters/bosses to L4D.

neatfeatguy

Do you have a link to where Valve said they would be working on such things for Left 4 Dead? If anyone does, I'd like to read it for myself.

:D

Valve doesn't owe any of you anything. So you can take that sense of entitlement and shove it. They are one of the few developers that give away content for free. Valve spent millions of dollars on the tf2 updates and movies so we can be entertained. The new game is giving us a large amount of new content. L4D shipped with 2 multiplayer maps and 4 campaigns and the game was mostly broken because of corner sitting and a few other things like infinite melee which they fixed several months later. All 5 campaigns they are shipping will have versus enabled as well as survivor and whatever new game mode they have planned. Cry some more.

They are one of the few developers that give away content for free. Valve spent millions of dollars on the tf2 updates and movies so we can be entertained.EndersAres

The new game is giving us a large amount of new content. L4D shipped with 2 multiplayer maps and 4 campaigns and the game was mostly broken because of corner sitting and a few other things like infinite melee which they fixed several months later. All 5 campaigns they are shipping will have versus enabled as well as survivor and whatever new game mode they have planned.EndersAres

Cry some more.EndersAres