Your thoughts on Russians and Ukraine war.

I'm from Ukraine but been a citizen of US since 1997, still have lots of family there so i'm worried of what Russia is trying to accomplish there. If any of you follow of whats going on there what are your opinions ? And please no paid Russian trolls in this conversation, we know you need to make those rubles with your shitty propaganda.

Send them money and get them out is the only realistic non pie in the sky advice that I have.

There may be aid or loan programs to help scrape up the money if you can prove some sort of political sanctuary reason.

There is grant and loan aid money for almost everything else so I cant see why loan programs would not be available for this.

too much stalling, either fight it out or go home.

A big bag of shit with people suffering.

Which part of Ukraine are you from? The Donbass part or the EU-puppet part?

The US State Department is to blame for the dissolution of Ukraine. *Cha-ching*

The Kiev government is a US puppet regime. *Cha-ching*

Crimea was neither invaded nor annexed. The territory was always Russian, and it returned willingly to the Motherland's warm embrace. *Cha-ching*

President Putin could send the entire army of the Russian Federation marching into Donetsk and Lugansk without violating Ukrainian sovereignty because those territories are independent republics now and, in any case, Ukraine has no sovereignty, having surrendered it to the US State Department. *Cha-ching*

The "Buk" launcher that shot down MH-17 was a Ukrainian one. *Cha-ching*

Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk (with a "g", not an "h") will never be Ukrainian again. *Cha-ching*

:-D

I feel awful for the people of Ukraine. Not sure what can be done to stop the violence. Seems like a true schism in the country between the russian nationalists and the rest of the people.

Oh, and Stesilaus is a total russian backed troll. Ignore him.

It's a shitty situation. Russians are basically bullying their way to annexing Ukraine. Unfortunately no one is willing to stand up to it.

Just to set the record straight:

I'm not really on Russia's payroll, and I seldom watch RT news clips.

I'm a US citizen who rejects crude, US propaganda in favor of the intelligent and insightful analyses published by both Western and pro-Russian commentators on the Ukraine crisis. WESTERN authors with impeccable credentials, like Paul Craig Roberts, Tony Cartalucci, Pepe Escobar, Finian Cunningham and others featured at ICH, have all published essays that concur with my views on the Ukrainian "crisis".

The bottom line is that Poroshenko was a long-time Washington insider who was installed by a US-State-Department-funded coup in violation of the Ukrainian constitution. Everything follows from that.

Russia is violating Ukraine's sovereignty by annexing Crimea. It broke its promise not to interfere with Ukraine (look up the Budapest Memorandum) and Russia is causing former Soviet blocs to become more weary of Russia especially for those who have strayed or want to become independent from Russia.

The Russian government under Putin is crazy and as much as I want it stopped, there's no ideal way unless we're willing to go to war with another nuclear power.

I feel for you man. My parents and my family came from Syria but ethnically, we're Armenians, and the conflict over there is getting worse with the civil war and ISIL. It sucks.

Russia is wrong. Hope the Ukraine is okay.

Pay no mind to Stealisus or whatever he's called.

You're a U.S. citizen? All the shit you talk and you are a U.S. citizen? Gtfo of my country traitor. You don't deserve U.S. citizenship!

lol if by impeccable credentials you mean Putin connections. All of those names have history or connections that can be traced back to the Russian government or Russian money.

Granted, It's fine to question the media but run to the other end of the spectrum and suddenly completely abandon any degree of suspicion you have against source of information is just incredible naive if you really aren't part of the Russian propaganda effort (even through you seems to be trying pretty hard for "skeptical" US citizen). You are like the guy who dismissed the situation in DPRK as western propaganda; goes to North Korea then prompted get his ass arrested, then experience reality of "western propaganda" first handed.

The US needs citizens like me to point out the error of its ways and lift the veil of mainstream-media falsehoods from its eyes.

You ought to read essays by Dr Paul Craig Roberts. He's a Reagan-era conservative and was, in fact, a Reagan appointee, holding the position of Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy. He's a true American, and his work is the basis of much of what I post here and that OT glibly dismisses as "trolling".

Seriously, if you want me to "gtfo", then you would also have to want Dr Paul Craig Roberts to "gtfo", after all that he's done for America. And you'd just be kicking us out for telling truths that you don't want to hear.

I think it's laughable Russian trying to claim that all the fighting is from Ukrainian ethnic-Russian separatists, when clearly their own troops are there doing the fighting and arming them with weapons. Of course, the sanctions are hurting Russia, and they're trying to damage control it with phony polls saying Putin's approval is up.

Russia is scum and they're illegally occupying sovereign Ukrainian territory.

Nothing can be done about it, though. They called our bluff, so to speak.

The formerly Ukrainian provinces of Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk all held democratic referendums in which the people voted overwhelmingly to secede from post-coup Ukraine.

Sure, you can assert that "Russia is occupying Ukrainian territory", but then you'd have to agree that the United States of America is occupying British territory.

Stesilaus is a god damn hero. He's the hero OT deserves, but not the one it needs right now because the forum is dead. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Putin supporter.

@Aljosa23:

Are these forums really that dead? I always heard off topic was lively.

Unfortunately, yes. It used to be way more active and better back in 2009 and so.

The entire situation revolves around the geopolitical interests of US imperialism.

For some years now, the US has been actively instigating a regime change in Ukraine (2004 color revolution attempt, 2009, nazi camps in certain parts etc.) to install a puppet government (like the one controlled by billionaire EU oligarch Poroshenko) which has their strategic interests in mind. This precisely targets the economic growth of Russia.

Last year, they utilized mass discontent with the International Monetary Fund's "association agreement" which Yanukovych (then prez) rejected due to the overwhelming opposition and protest in the country (a situation much like Greece now). US and EU backed nazi/fascist militias (the Svoboda party, Right Sector/Azov) were thoroughly supported by the likes of Assistant Secretary of State V. Nuland and Senator John McCain in order to oust the (democratically elected) president, and replace him with the eventual EU and US puppet regime led by Poroshenko. In response to this, the Crimean government made strategic maneuvers to prevent the NATO takeover of economic and military capabilities on the Crimean peninsula, and voted to be annexed by the Russian government.

These are just some cliffs that don't take into account the ridiculous lies in US and western media, where they went so far as to blame Putin for the downing of MH17 (with no evidence whatsoever) over Ukrainian fighting instigated by the US and EU!!

As for my thoughts, the entire situation is a powder-keg, ready to explode into world war if workers worldwide don't catch wind of the reactionary character of both governments. The US (mainly) continues to instigate further conflicts with Russia over phony claims of "Russian aggression," while the criminals that rule over Russia vacillate between seeking a deal with the insatiable demands of US finance capital on the Eurasian landmass, and vowing to defend themselves against nuclear threats (which are literally happening) with their own nuclear arsenal. Yeah, so basically the world could be destroyed because Chevron wants to invest and pauperize Ukrainians and Russians.

I would add that the NATO "Rapid Reaction Force" was recently formed in the Baltic states, with Obama vowing to defend any perceived threat with NATOs entire military capacity (against Russia). If anyone here understands how unstable the governments in Latvia and Lithuania are, and how right wing and racist they are, they would immediately understand the danger of this.

Below are some videos worth taking note of.

Actually, literally everything you hear in the Western media (even the shitty ones that claim to be "totally radical dude" such as Vice) should be taken as what they are: an official mouthpiece of US imperialism.

It should be noted that all of the immediate claims that rush to defend the interests of US finance capital leave out decades of historical developments.

Man, I should just post that picture of Oleh Tyanybok literally doing the "heil hitler" in a conference commemorating Stapan Bandera, who I'm sure you have no idea of the existence of or his history during WWII.

EDIT: by the way, Poroshenko continuously orders his troops to violate the cease-fire agreement. He also repeatedly calls for NATO reinforcements. He really wants to get the shit-show started.

It really isn't. De facto Russia has annexed the Crimea and Western world powers won't take necessary action to reverse that. As long as a Putin doesn't get too cute by half and starts expanding beyond that the situation will stay on a detente state. A new US president might change the equation but that's 2 years away.

Yes, it is. Very much so.

There are open discussions in the US regarding preemptive nuclear strikes against Russia to counter alleged violations of nuclear agreements (which is hilarious because Israel hasn't even ratified themselves in those agreements yet they receive no harassment from US imperialism).

Basically, they are trumping up claims to start a nuclear war that they think they can win. Absolutely insane, but the global economic crisis demands this of them. If they want to continue their rule, they see no other way.

I'll post an article regarding this. There are a few other ones that describe the history more clearly too.

http://www.valuewalk.com/2015/06/us-nuclear-strikes-against-russia-report/

EDIT: this article is not bad. EDIT2: It has problems toward the end e.g. "disagree from a moral and ethical standpoint..." "... Japan ... on the verge of surrender." Despite the pointing out of reckless policy carried out by US imperialism, it is still written in service of US nationalism.

Also watch out: Crimea was annexed via their democratic establishment.

Some Russians are quick to forget their own history, what the nazis did to them in second world war. Eventualy, what goes around comes around.

They were invaded by Russia. That's the end of the story. No referendum after the fact is valid.

Viktor Yanukovych was nothing more than a Kremlin puppet. When he was ousted, Russia went about stealing land from Ukraine and supporting rebel groups. The rebels in the East would have been defeated last year if it weren't for Russian supplies and troops coming over the border. Tanks and missile launchers don't just magically appear. What Ukraine is fighting right now, for the most part, are Russians.

It's tough to tell how far Russia will push it in Ukraine. I doubt its policies toward its neighbor will change until Putin is out of office.

It's all kinds of fucked up over there. And the people are suffering like always.

It's been already proven by the investigators that the BUK that shot down MH17 was used by the rebels.

The Netherlands wanted to have a tribunal to prosecute the people that were responsible for all those deaths, but Russia used their veto against it.

Gee..I wonder why that is...

I saw a documentary a while ago. It was about Russian mothers of Russian soldiers that have no idea where their son is. Some are missing for months, others are reported dead..official reports say they died in accidents on trainigcamps or because of heartattacks...boys that are in the prime of their life, yeah right.

The parents are not allowed to ask questions or grief.

A tribunal wouldn't have done anything. We already know who is responsible for this. There is absolutely nothing we can do about it.

@airshocker: maybe some people responsible for the act would have gotten some sort of punishment.

Punished by whom? Russia? Russia doesn't give a ****. The rebels themselves? For them to punish somebody they'd first have to admit responsibility.

You can't punish people with the law who choose not to follow it.

@airshocker: yeah, true. But I would already be glad if those animals that have been proven to be responsible for the act, are caught, and die from a hunger strike because they don't approve of a tribunal. Or just straight up kill themselves from remorse.

I see your point though, and a UN tribunal only covers so much anyway. I guess I just want to see those swines appear before a judge and don't escape from the punnishment they deserve.

But then again, this is only one fucked up story of what's going on in this world today..middle east, africa...really depressing shit.

I want to see them brought to justice too. I just don't think it's going to happen. Russia is backing the rebels. So long as that continues they'll be immune from any UN initiated legal action.

Hm, I was wrong. Russia didn't use their veto, I thought they did. I misunderstood.

Instead they will come with their own UN resolution to counter the one from the Netherlands, Malaysia, Australia etc..

It's not known yet what it wil contain, but one thing is sure, Russia wants a bigger say in the investigaton of the MH17 shooting. They are not satisfied with the investigation run by the Netherlands.

*edit; sorry TC that I highjacked your thread a little with this MH17 stuff, which is only a part (or result) of the conflict over there. Overall the situation is very bad, and I hope for the best for the people out there that are suffering from this.

That's a shitty analogy, majority Americans are former British subjects who declared their independence from Britain not to be part of a larger nation. Plus Britain have no legal claim over American land anyways so it's hardly "British territory". Sovereignty can't be claimed by a foreign immigrant population who displaced natives as majority.

We don't know who was responsible.

Even if it were to be confirmed that the jetliner was shot down by a Buk missile, we wouldn't be able to infer that the missile was fired by the defenders of the Donetsk People's Republic because the Ukrainian Army also has access to Buk missile systems.

What we do know is that:

• The Donetsk defenders never stood to benefit from shooting down a civilian airliner.
• By contrast, the Kiev regime and its NATO backers have benefited immensely from the propaganda value of the shoot-down.
• Crucial data that could shed light on the incident are being suppressed and withheld by the US, UK and EU: The cockpit voice recordings have never been made public; US/EU satellite data from the time and place of the incident have never been made public; no public investigation has been conducted to investigate why the airliner was diverted from its original course and sent into the airspace above a war zone.

@airshocker said:

There is absolutely nothing we can do about it.

That's certainly true. Nothing can be done as long as the prime suspect is above indictment, and the West can hardly point the finger of blame at the very regime that it's backing to the tune of billions of dollars / euros.

Not if it wasn't done unintentionally. The accusation isn't that the separatists or nationalists shot down the plane on purpose but by mistake. The whole suggestion that it was done intentionally to smear the other side is bullshit like much of 911 conspiracies. Conspiracy to kill plane full of innocents (or in 911 case thousands of innocent lives) is a risky proposition since if traced back to you, you stand to lose a whole lot more than what you stand to gain.

@Stesilaus:

Yes we do know who is responsible: Russian-backed rebels.

Sorry, I don't buy what you're trying to peddle.

This is the type of outright falsification that western media would like people to believe. Yanukovych was elected by the population -- partially on his opposition to the demands for brutal austerity contained within the IMFs "Association Agreement" loan package for the bankers and investors of Ukraine. Part of this would have also meant severing their economic ties with Russian industry, something many of them would not have prefered.

When he persisted in his rejection of IMF austerity in the face of massive opposition, the US and EU moved forward with their mobilization of Fascists to overthrow his regime. The result is the endless violence you see there today. I mean, tell me, do you think these people represent the "freedom and democracy" that the US and EU claim to be upholders of?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/06/ukraine-lgbt-idUSL5N0YS07R20150606

this reuters article is shit, but the events in it contain the reality of social life in Ukraine: Right Sector fascists, which are now integrated into the Ukrainian army attack civil rights demonstrations like this.

Here's another one with Poroshenko's insanity:

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/05/21/poro-m21.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32805555

The bbc article is just there for reference.

Wrong. See the videos I posted. There's a quote that I'd like you to look for: one where V. Nuland (almost braggingly) claims that the US has invested money into regime change for years.

Also, I'm just gonna help you out here:

Do you know who each of these people are in these pictures? The woman in the center of those men is Assistant Secretary of State for EU affairs Victoria Nuland; to her left is Svoboda party (yes, the fascist party from WWII) leader Tyahnybok. I could post all sorts of documentation and evidence, but by now, this has been made available to you more than enough for you to doubt the ludicrous line of the western media.

Oh, and also there's this:

He basically says "[don't worry guys, the fascists were always on our side]"

The correct thing for you to do right now would be recant everything you've said in regards to "russian agression" as the clear culprit behind the conflict is the US and EU support for these guys -- invariably in pursuit of global geopolitical and economic interests of US and German finance capital. Do not deny this now.

@X_CAPCOM_X:

You've mistaken me for someone who cares what propaganda videos you post. I get it, you and Stesilaus are Russian shills. Great. Perhaps you'd care to leave these forums and go mingle with those who seriously entertain anything you have to say regarding world politics.

The thing I've been wondering about this issue is how much support do the separatists in Eastern Ukraine have from the population of those regions? If most of the people living there really do want to become a part of Russia, then I don't have a problem with it, but if most people want to remain in Ukraine and the separatists are only a small group being used by the Russian government then Russia is impinging on Ukraine's sovereignty.

We're not shills for Russia. We're just shills for the truth.

I don't watch the news a lot, but it seems like it's not getting reported on as much. Are they all just circle jerking there or what?

Notice how nothing airshocker writes pertains to any factual matters -- or even speaks to a basic reading comprehension of my posts (or any posts here for the matter)?

This is typical for people with nothing backing their sentiments but nationalist falsification. They resort to empty accusations in lieu of any real substantiation.

If you read my post, you would see that I have not placed a trace of innocence on the oligarchic Russian regime; I merely pointed out factually where the blame lies. It rests entirely on US and EU (primarily German) imperialism. Any statement otherwise is false.

You are certainly a shill for Russia. I may have misjudged CAPCOM, though.

You have not shown anything that would reasonably make me believe that the Russian-backed rebels in Ukraine aren't behind the downing of MH17.