Where did all this awkwardness towards women come from?

@theone86: I think the big difference is that women aren't on these forms complaining that guys don't talk to them.

@pariah3: Few things. One, you're not ugly, though maybe you need to find a look that suits you. Two, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. "Hot" women go for "ugly" guys all the time. Three, maybe reconsider what you find attractive in a woman. If you aren't attracted to someone then you aren't attracted to someone, but if you're disregarding women because they aren't conventionally pretty then you might be arbitrarily closing yourself off to a latent attraction. And four, don't listen to people who talk about leagues, at least when they're talking about leagues. Listen to HH about politics, not dating out of your league.

And, in my experience, when they get fed up with bad boys they go running to the first guy who's decent enough to pay attention to their feelings, who quite often isn't very compatible with them for other reasons. It's the same thing as popular, attractive girls in high school, every guy wants to be with them until they actually get with them and then they actually start figuring out what they prefer in a partner.

@theone86: Yeah, that's what i figured out aswell, it's not like i am in a rush getting in relationships. When i see all the girls that i know getting babies at before they even have hit 20, that doesn't really appeal to me.

@The_Last_Ride: Maybe it's where you live. I never knew too many women getting pregnant in their teens, but most of my friends from small towns talk like it's commonplace. I think in that case, too, it may be that there are just more bad boys around, and the men who aren't figure that they just won't ever fit in and need to move to a different environment.

@korvus: Right, but is the behavior that women exhibit any more healthy? I knew a woman who was very attracted to an introvert, felt a bit nervous around him, spent maybe two minutes having a conversation with him at best before concluding he wasn't interested in her, then went and started flirting with the first guy she saw trying to pick up women. Women don't come to these forums because they don't need to, if they feel self-conscious around a man then they just find another one, which seems pretty perverse to me when they have a genuine attraction to the first guy. Like I said, I've talked to plenty of women who complain that they can't find a certain type of man, and yet habitually ignore that very type of man.

@theone86: Guess it's a "You only get it if you experienced it" kind of situation...in any case I believe that most behaviours that apply to a man applies to a woman. If a woman thought she'd be interested in an introvert and only gave him 2 minutes she wasn't actually interested and/or the guy didn't miss out on anything...

@theone86: yeah might just be, who knows. When i go on vacation outside of the country i feel i connect way more to women. Don't know why though

Well I know her, she was interested but self-conscious. Her reaction to a perceived lack of interest was to immediately leave and find a more forward guy. And yeah, that's probably her loss, but my point is that the same thing was going on with her that goes on with guys who feel rejected, only women like that don't go to forums because they can just default to socializing with more outgoing men. Doesn't make it any more healthy, they're usually repressing feelings of rejection, they're just sublimating them in a more socially acceptable way.

Furthermore, I don't buy this line that women never do this sort of thing, they do it ALL the time. They just tend not to do it on internet forums because it's socially acceptable for them to talk about these problems with their friends, and their friends are probably more inclined than not to offer support. With men it's less socially acceptable and their friends are more inclined to tell them to buck up, so they're more likely to seek support online. I mean, the woman in my example was basically doing that, she was pining for someone and ran away from the situation because she was afraid of rejection. What makes that any different from guys who are afraid to talk to someone?

@theone86: Off the top of my head, the most blatant difference would be that she proceeded to go flirt with someone else while the guy in the corner probably didn't.

Okay, so the next time I feel rejected I should just go and try to find a quick hookup, got it. And look, I don't buy that at all because if you put a man in her situation that man is an ass. If a man tries to start something with a woman then gets bored two minutes in and starts hitting on someone else people call him a sleazebag, I don't see why it should be any different for women.

@theone86: Wait, so we were talking about a random person and now we're talking about you? I'm not telling you to do anything, I'm saying that anything you do or don't do has consequences, and saying "but women do it too!" won't improve your life at all. Yes, they do it too, and they probably end up in the same situation as you...how does that contribute to your happiness in any way? I'm not really sure what you want from me. Do you need me, a random stranger, to validate your actions? I doubt it. If you feel comfortable with the way you deal with situations then don't change a thing; on the other hand, if you are NOT happy with the results you're getting from said actions then change...it really is that simple...

To be honest, all a guy needs to do is to be honest.

It doesn't matter if he's introverted or extroverted. Socially awkward or not, not even social status is the most important thing there. Be honest and that will be all; now some girls may like you, some don't and that's okay, it happens to everyone. Of course this goes both ways, but the most important thing is to make sure they know who you are and what do you think,

No, I'm taking the example of some person I know and hypothetically applying her actions to myself in a similar situation to show that there is a double standard between men and women. Besides, what's wrong with a man going home and complaining after a rejection? Women go home and complain about the same sorts of things, they commiserate with their friends, and soon after they're right back out there. Maybe the problem isn't the men complaining, maybe the problem is that when they do complain all anyone tells them is that they need to grow a pair and keep trying. Maybe if we actually tried being supportive of men in these situations instead of trying to give them a kick in the pants they wouldn't have as many negative associations with rejection and they'd be more inclined to get back out there.

And I'm not talking about improving my life specifically, I'm talking about improving the way we deal with introverted people, specifically introverted men, as a whole in this country. I'm saying that I think your rhetoric is harmful and mean-spirited, I'm saying I think you're reinforcing double-standards (a woman in the corner of the bar is just waiting for Mr. Right, a man in the corner of the bar is pathetic and whiny), and I'm saying I think we need to stop looking at introverted males as lonely saps who need to fit into some extrovert ideal if they ever want a chance at a relationship. I know it's hard for you to understand because you don't see the world the same way, but it is not always that easy. For some people it is because they just operate that way and really do just need to bust out of their shell, for others that means being in an uncomfortable environment and acting in a way that doesn't fit them. Maybe you mean well, but what I don't think you realize you're doing is stigmatizing people who are already fairly misunderstood.

@theone86: Look, I'm trying to keep discussing this with you but you are starting to upset me, but since you've been respectful so far I'll keep answering you. You keep accusing me of things that I haven't said. Let me lay this out for you so that we can (hopefully) move past this.

I think being an introvert isn't a problem as long as you (not you in particular, general "you") enjoy being an introvert. I have said this time and time again in this thread....if introvert works for you, BE AN INTROVERT, there's nothing wrong with sticking to something that works for you...but if it doesn't, then I believe you should change it...no amount of me patting your back saying there's nothing wrong with being an introvert is going to improve your life. If being an introvert is causing you trouble, then it's obviously not working for you. Now, you seem to see anything other than me saying "Yeah, you're on the right and everybody else is an asshole" as being mean-spirited; personally, I think encouraging someone to improve their lives to be a lot more helpful than just help them settle for what they have now, no matter how miserable that makes them feel. Saying "it'll be ok" is the easy way out for me as a friend and for you as someone whose personality isn't working for yourself.

I also think that people should be allowed to do whatever they feel like doing (within reason). If someone (man or woman) thinks that introverts aren't attractive, then they should date extroverts; they are not obligated to give an introvert a chance. But if they think introverts are cute, I think they should approach them. There is no difference between men and women, and it's definitely not fair for you to just assume that men never support other men...generalisations tend to end up with you making an ass out of yourself. There can be plenty of reasons for different people to react in different ways, but that's not important...what's important is how each individual reacts to a situation.

Also, just to get it out there, your country is probably not my country, so there are probably quite a few differences in realities but I agree with most of what you said. I will also agree that most times I'm more sympathetic to a woman telling me about their rejection than when a guy does it, but that's because normally a girl will tell me something like "We've been friends for years...I've been trying to get closer to him and when I finally thought I was getting somewhere he flat out tells me he's not interested", which gets a lot more sympathy from me than when a guy tells me "Met this hot chick in the bar, tried to talk to her and the fucking **** told me she wasn't interested". Now if the conversations were reversed I would definitely feel more compassion for the guy than the girl (it happened to a male friend of mine a few weeks ago and I've been keeping in touch with him, talking to him and sometimes taking him somewhere to distract him).

You seem to be hung up on this "When a girl does it it's ok, but not for a guy" and keep bringing it up even when the comment you're replying to made no mention of it...like when you asked me for the difference between two situations and I said that the girl got a date and the guy didn't...somehow you managed to take that as me defending the girl and telling you that you should get a quick hookup...you really need to start reading what I write instead of using your preconceived notions about me.

To sum it up: Yes, I think both men and women should "sack up" and change what is not working for them. Yes, I think I think it's simple to do. Yes, I do think there's a difference between "simple" and "easy". Yes, I think both men and women should have access to a support group. No, I don't think a gaming forum and a bunch of strangers is the right place to ask for advice for either men or women. No, I don't think that getting hung up on "what other people do" or "If they have it, why can't I?" is helpful...I think it only detracts from you finding a solution that works for you...in this matter, pointing fingers is only a way to procrastinate the realisation that you are the sole responsible in becoming the person you want to be.

Was this clear enough?

I think there's a difference between being comfortable as yourself as an introvert and introversion "working" for you. Like I said, a lot of introverts feel they have to fit into an extrovert personality simply because that's the norm that's put forward and, a lot of times when they don't, they get treated differently. People (not just women) look at them as strange or different, or they ignore them, and when they put on their extroverted persona they say things like "I'm so glad you finally came out of your shell," which is basically reinforcing a behavior which may feel unnatural to them. To me what you're saying goes halfway. It seems like what you're saying is if you're okay being introverted then be introverted, but if people treat you differently because of it then pretend to not be introverted.

As to being patted on the back, improving their lives is only how you view it. Maybe it is the case that they do just need to get back out there and keep trying, but a lot of times when they hear things like "buck up" or "be a man" it just comes across as a put-down. Sometimes the best way to get someone to do something is not to push them directly to do it. And I get it that you may not be able to offer the kind of advice they may need, there's nothing wrong with that, but when people are going to forums and videos they're usually looking for support they don't have in their lives. To say you can't stand when people make videos or posts like that or whatever it was exactly that you said, that just seems to me like these people are reaching out for something that they need in their lives and you're sort of piling on them for it. You may think a sympathetic ear is only going to encourage them to be lazy or something like that, but maybe it's what some of these people need.

People should be allowed to date whomever they're attracted to, but that doesn't mean there's no room for discussion about the nature of attraction. Like I said, I've written off introverted women in the past because they seemed overly shy, I know now that it was a mistake. If a man just isn't attracted to a certain type of woman that's fine, but if he says something like "I won't date any woman over 130" then maybe it's not just a matter of simple attraction, maybe he has some biases and hangups he needs to work through. Similarly, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to reflect on why they're not attracted to introverts (or maybe not even attracted, maybe why they avoid them socially). If it's just a matter of attraction that's fine, but if they're holding to popular misconceptions about introverts it's a different story. Now people may see that as a slippery slope of who gets to tell whom when to reconsider their attraction, but I don't see it so much as telling individuals that they have to reconsider their attraction as I do just trying to have a general awareness about some of these misconceptions and why they're wrong.

As to men not being supportive, yes it's a generalization, but it's one that seems to play out pretty consistently in my experience. I'm willing to concede that it may not be as widespread of an effect as it seems to me, but it seems to be a pretty common theme, at least in the U.S. Again, a big part of the reason for people making these posts you're talking about, I think, is that they're experiencing the same sorts of things I'm talking about. And yes, it's actually probably quite different where you are, the U.S. sometimes seems like an island all to itself. I think it's also a bit more magnified in a college town where I'm at and among undergrads, whom I primarily associate with. Actually, that scenario with the woman speaking with the man seems to be completely reversed most of the time around here. Anyway, I think that just speaks to my point that maybe these people seem like they need a kick to you, but you may be in a far better position than them. What a lot of these people are looking for is what just seems naturally available to you.

Young American woment can be difficult to talk to. A lot of the time they answer open questions with one or two word answers which as someone who enjoys conversation kills me.... but I think thats a cultural response because your not yet "friends" not necessarily a cue to back off and stop trying to talk to them. I find a little perseverance until they feel comfortable opening up and even the most vapid self interested american teen will be quite enjoyable to be around.

British women are much the same but to their credit they do have a very dry sense of humour so you can call them out on their bullshit and say things like "your not gonna me that easy for me are you". They will likely open up and laugh. I love foreign women though. The working out how they think is very interesting.

@theone86: I think we're approaching this on different angles, but that's fine, as long as you realise we're on the same side. You're choosing to "spread awareness" and I'm choosing to work directly with the person. Yeah, if I was talking to some anti-gay person I would give them the whole "You need to evolve and be more accepting of people who are different from you, and you should let others live their life" but to a gay person directly I would say "Don't let yourself be judged. Be who you are, and while it'll be nice if people ever come around on this subject, you need to make your own happiness regardless of what others think or say about you". In the case of an introvert, I would say the same. If they tell me "I like who I am but people seem to think I have a problem" I'd just say "screw people...be happy on your own terms" but if they tell me "I hate being an introvert...it's ruining my social life" then yeah, I'm going to tell them that they don't need to settle for it and that they CAN change it...I don't see the problem with that...

Also, I think you might be confusing my posts with somebody else's...you posted "To say you can't stand when people make videos or posts like that or whatever it was exactly that you said"...I don't remember saying anything of the sort...actually, the post that you first replied to was me saying that I think everybody should be respectful of everybody else, and that men and women should be brought up equally without any sort of gender roles that forced them to act a specific way in a specific situation.

What I did say is that I don't think Gamespot is the best place to search for advice. Half of this forum's dwellers are 12 or act like 12....advice, especially life advice, can be a very powerful thing...and receiving it from a bunch of faceless people who are known for loving to start shit-flinging contests might do more harm than good. Now, I understand that some people don't have friends they can talk to, but that still doesn't make this an ideal place.