Was Bin Laden a proper Muslim?

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conistant

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#101 conistant
Member since 2008 • 2169 Posts

[QUOTE="Commander-Gree"][QUOTE="conistant"] Don't mind him.He is GS's local terrorist supporter.I'm a muslim and I don't think bin laden was a great muslim or even a muslim.I'm pretty sure majority of muslims hate bin Laden.Harisemo

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying. I thought that either he was supporting terrorism or I was missing something.

Bin laden was a great muslim and im sure majority of muslims scholars would agree with me. Questions should be raised about so called "muslim" who say bin laden was not a muslim. Unfortunatley there are many hypocrite muslims like that conistant guy you quoted

So I'm a hypocrite for having an opinion?Man you are so naive.
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Victorious_Fize

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#102 Victorious_Fize
Member since 2011 • 6128 Posts

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

Harisemo, you do realize Al Qaeda killed innocent Muslim Saudi Arabian citizens, don't you? Osama is as good as the corrupt imperialist Westerns that made him.

Harisemo

I don't know arabic but did bin laden ever say his aim was to kill infidels and arab traitors?

Not that I recall, I just know I should not pay him (or whoever do the bumbings in my country) a single ounce of attention. If anything, I should pay attention the roots of all the Middle Eastern problems, Westerns.

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Commander-Gree

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#103 Commander-Gree
Member since 2009 • 4929 Posts

[QUOTE="Commander-Gree"][QUOTE="Harisemo"]

what makes you think bin laden didn't regret it (if he killed innocent people)? all sins can be forgiven if one asks for forgiveness.

Harisemo

Because at the time of his death he was still actively plotting terrorist attacks.

I don't trust what CIA tells me. I believe bin laden would never deliberately target innocent people because he himself said so.

How could he have ordered the terrorist attacks that he did without deliberately targeting innocents?
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Ninja-Hippo

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#104 Ninja-Hippo
Member since 2008 • 23434 Posts
Six pages of replies, and i wonder how many of us have read the Qu'ran and have any reasonable basis at all on which to found an opinion on this?
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Harisemo

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#105 Harisemo
Member since 2010 • 4133 Posts

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

Harisemo, you do realize Al Qaeda killed innocent Muslim Saudi Arabian citizens, don't you? Osama is as good as the corrupt imperialist Westerns that made him.

Victorious_Fize

I don't know arabic but did bin laden ever say his aim was to kill infidels and arab traitors?

Not that I recall, I just know I should not pay him (or whoever do the bumbings in my country) a single ounce of attention. If anything, I should pay attention the roots of all the Middle Eastern problems, Westerns.

unless you are 100% sure all bombings in the world are carried outon bin ladens request you should not say bad things about him.

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Victorious_Fize

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#106 Victorious_Fize
Member since 2011 • 6128 Posts

Six pages of replies, and i wonder how many of us have read the Qu'ran and have any reasonable basis at all on which to found an opinion on this?Ninja-Hippo

Oh ok. The answer is yes, he's a Muslim. Any that adheres and diligently follow the five pillars are, while also assuming that they repent for their sins as well. Do I think Osama regrets what he did? No. Do I think he repents and asks for God forgiveness? Yes.

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Harisemo

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#107 Harisemo
Member since 2010 • 4133 Posts

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]Six pages of replies, and i wonder how many of us have read the Qu'ran and have any reasonable basis at all on which to found an opinion on this?Victorious_Fize

Oh ok. The answer is yes, he's a Muslim. Any that adheres and diligently follow the five pillars are, while also assuming that they repent for their sins as well. Do I think Osama regrets what he did? No. Do I think he repents and asks for God forgiveness? Yes.

what did osama do? we don't even know if he did what he did so we should just remain quiet about this especially when the person we're discussing is dead.

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conistant

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#108 conistant
Member since 2008 • 2169 Posts

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

I don't know arabic but did bin laden ever say his aim was to kill infidels and arab traitors?

Harisemo

Not that I recall, I just know I should not pay him (or whoever do the bumbings in my country) a single ounce of attention. If anything, I should pay attention the roots of all the Middle Eastern problems, Westerns.

unless you are 100% sure all bombings in the world are carried outon bin ladens request you should not say bad things about him.

You know the 9/11 WTC attack was ordered by him.Also there was a mosque in the WTC buildings and I'm pretty there were muslims (including a pregnant woman) when the towers burned and collapsed.So can you still say he is a great muslim?
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Lord_Nuclear

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#109 Lord_Nuclear
Member since 2007 • 251 Posts

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

Christianspeople kill all the time and call it war. Obviously one of the 10 commandments is 'Don't kill people'.

So according to your logic all soldiers bodies should be dumped?

Personally I think it was the only option, his body would have made him a martyr and caused even more trouble.

YellowOneKinobi

I've heard a few people say that handing over his body would make him a martyr. To those who were "fans" of bin Laden, isn't just the fact that he died for the cause reason enough for them to consider him a martyr?

As a side note, I believe bin Laden followers already started calling the area where they believe the body was dumpted the the "Martyr Sea" or something like that.

Unfortunately, that's the case. No matter what was done the radicals would have created some sort of shrine in dedication to bin Laden.

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Commander-Gree

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#110 Commander-Gree
Member since 2009 • 4929 Posts

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"]Six pages of replies, and i wonder how many of us have read the Qu'ran and have any reasonable basis at all on which to found an opinion on this?Harisemo

Oh ok. The answer is yes, he's a Muslim. Any that adheres and diligently follow the five pillars are, while also assuming that they repent for their sins as well. Do I think Osama regrets what he did? No. Do I think he repents and asks for God forgiveness? Yes.

what did osama do? we don't even know if he did what he did so we should just remain quiet about this especially when the person we're discussing is dead.

In 2004 he himself claimed responsibility for the 9/11 attacks.
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Harisemo

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#111 Harisemo
Member since 2010 • 4133 Posts

You know the 9/11 WTC attack was ordered by him.Also there was a mosque in the WTC buildings and I'm pretty there were muslims (including a pregnant woman) when the towers burned and collapsed.So can you still say he is a great muslim?conistant

bin laden denied he was behind 9/11 and FBI didn't even mention 9/11 for being the reason bin laden was most wanted

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Promised_Trini

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#113 Promised_Trini
Member since 2008 • 3651 Posts

Sorry but no way in hell that man was a proper Muslim...All these extremistwho use religion as a excuse to commit murder need to burn...For doing what they do...

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Buttons1990

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#114 Buttons1990
Member since 2009 • 3167 Posts

Oh crap. Good job TC, we're in for a 100 page thread. :P And I'm pretty sure the reason for the sea burial was because they didnt want him to be made a martyr and what notDroidPhysX

Um no it is because Navy Seals and CIA that participated in the raid were extracted back to an aircraft carrier, and then extracted from there to Europe, and then extracted from there back stateside for debreifing... They had Osama's body with them and after DNA was collected he was to be given a proper burial as to not encite hatred towards the US for ignoring the tradition of being burried within 24 hours of death in Islam and a burial at sea is the only way to bury someone when you are on a boat in the middle of the ocean.

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fabz_95

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#115 fabz_95
Member since 2006 • 15425 Posts

I don't consider him as a Muslim; he was a mass murderer and murder is something that is forbidden in Islam and in the majority of other religions.

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Buttons1990

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#116 Buttons1990
Member since 2009 • 3167 Posts

I don't consider him as a Muslim; he was a mass murderer and murder is something that is forbidden in Islam and in the majority of other religions.

fabz_95

No its not.

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-GeordiLaForge-

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#117 -GeordiLaForge-
Member since 2006 • 7167 Posts

[QUOTE="conistant"] You know the 9/11 WTC attack was ordered by him.Also there was a mosque in the WTC buildings and I'm pretty there were muslims (including a pregnant woman) when the towers burned and collapsed.So can you still say he is a great muslim?Harisemo

bin laden denied he was behind 9/11 and FBI didn't even mention 9/11 for being the reason bin laden was most wanted

Wait, are you actually defending Bin Laden? Oo
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Theokhoth

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#118 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
I buried an atheist in a religious funeral. Therefore, the atheist was a Christian.
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MarineXXII

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#119 MarineXXII
Member since 2007 • 1583 Posts

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]Oh crap. Good job TC, we're in for a 100 page thread. :P And I'm pretty sure the reason for the sea burial was because they didnt want him to be made a martyr and what notButtons1990

Um no it is because Navy Seals and CIA that participated in the raid were extracted back to an aircraft carrier, and then extracted from there to Europe, and then extracted from there back stateside for debreifing... They had Osama's body with them and after DNA was collected he was to be given a proper burial as to not encite hatred towards the US for ignoring the tradition of being burried within 24 hours of death in Islam and a burial at sea is the only way to bury someone when you are on a boat in the middle of the ocean.

He was buried at sea because that is Islams belief. To be put at sea within the first 24 hours of death, BUT, they body SHOULD be recovered and buried in the ground within a day of being put in the water. Plus we didnt want to put his body somewhere where it could be worshipped or bothered with.

Other than that, Osama bin Laden was not a true Muslim. There is a fine line between extremist Muslims and real Muslims. The same could be said for all religions. There are extremists in every religion...

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Theokhoth

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#120 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

[QUOTE="fabz_95"]

I don't consider him as a Muslim; he was a mass murderer and murder is something that is forbidden in Islam and in the majority of other religions.

Buttons1990

No its not.

Murder isn't banned in most religions? Yes it most certainly is.
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spacesheikh

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#121 spacesheikh
Member since 2010 • 662 Posts

[QUOTE="Commander-Gree"]

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

yes he was a muslim, every muslim should be given a islamic burial even if he is a sinner. Bin Laden was a great muslim even if he allegedly killed innocent people.

conistant

Wait a second, if Islam is a religion that denounces killing innocent people, then why is Bin Laden a great muslim even if he did kill innocent people? I wouldn't call a chrisitan, a jew, or a member of any other religion a good follower to that religion if they killed innocent people since killing is one of the biggest sins you can commit in most religions.

Don't mind him.He is GS's local terrorist supporter.I'm a muslim and I don't think bin laden was a great muslim or even a muslim.I'm pretty sure majority of muslims hate bin Laden.

If all Muslims thought like you the world would be a much better place. Thank you for being a decent person. Unfortunately, there are many people in the world who believe that OBL was "a great muslim" like Harisemo here.

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conistant

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#122 conistant
Member since 2008 • 2169 Posts

[QUOTE="conistant"][QUOTE="Commander-Gree"] Wait a second, if Islam is a religion that denounces killing innocent people, then why is Bin Laden a great muslim even if he did kill innocent people? I wouldn't call a chrisitan, a jew, or a member of any other religion a good follower to that religion if they killed innocent people since killing is one of the biggest sins you can commit in most religions.

spacesheikh

Don't mind him.He is GS's local terrorist supporter.I'm a muslim and I don't think bin laden was a great muslim or even a muslim.I'm pretty sure majority of muslims hate bin Laden.

If all Muslims thought like you the world would be a much better place. Thank you for being a decent person. Unfortunately, there are many people in the world who believe that OBL was "a great muslim" like Harisemo here.

Most muslims don't support him or other extremists but a few bad apples in the community give us all a bad name and the media in the west isn't helping.They stereotype all muslims as having extremist views and this is alienating the muslim communities in other countries.
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-GeordiLaForge-

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#123 -GeordiLaForge-
Member since 2006 • 7167 Posts
and the media in the west isn't helping.They stereotype all muslims as having extremist views and this is alienating the muslim communities in other countries.conistant
Is this what the media in the East is saying? Because I haven't seen any news anchor stereotype all muslims as having extremist views. Educated Americans are well aware that the majority of Muslims around the world are actually very peaceful people... Oh, and I just noticed that this is my 6,666th post. Kind of freaky that it happened in a religous thread, lol...
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Buttons1990

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#124 Buttons1990
Member since 2009 • 3167 Posts

[QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

[QUOTE="fabz_95"]

I don't consider him as a Muslim; he was a mass murderer and murder is something that is forbidden in Islam and in the majority of other religions.

Theokhoth

No its not.

Murder isn't banned in most religions? Yes it most certainly is.

It isn't in Islam... Islam isn't a "turn the other cheek" type of religion like Christianity is "supposed" to be... It actively says in the Quran you can use violence to protect Islam and says Jihad is the duty of all Muslims should Islam be threatened... In fact when the Quran was written, and Islam was new (and there weren't many Muslims), Muslims were widely persecuted... And the wording of the Quran actually calls for the killing of non-Muslims (in that day and age) because non-Muslims persecuted Muslims... A sort of eye for an eye policy... The very founding of Islam was done through war with several battles fought between Muhammad and the Muslims and the non-Muslims in control of Mecca (between Mecca and Medina) within a decade of the religions founding and the Quran even has verses claiming divine intervention by God to win those battles and strike down the enemies of Islam...

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AmidstTheLight

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#125 AmidstTheLight
Member since 2008 • 207 Posts

Six pages of replies, and i wonder how many of us have read the Qu'ran and have any reasonable basis at all on which to found an opinion on this?Ninja-Hippo

I have read much of it and I tried to solidify a sound argument with the Qu'ran's teachings on page four. It is a tough one though when you are considering if the holy war they are fighting is a just one. I've concluded that it is only just if there is a threat to the Muslim. I've seen verses that talk about how even their property should only be defended when it is absolutely necessary. My response to the above posts concerning Islam as an eye for an eye religion is this: "The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loveth not those who do wrong. (42:40)".

More good quotes about forgiveness is here:http://ilovemuhammed.com/noble-quran/noble-teachings/60-the-quran-and-forgiveness

Again if you didn't read my last couple of posts, I don't believe Osama was a very good Muslim, but he was one and deserved a Muslim burial. It would have shown that America respects life and all religions more.

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AmidstTheLight

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#126 AmidstTheLight
Member since 2008 • 207 Posts

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

No its not.

Buttons1990

Murder isn't banned in most religions? Yes it most certainly is.

It isn't in Islam... Islam isn't a "turn the other cheek" type of religion like Christianity is "supposed" to be... It actively says in the Quran you can use violence to protect Islam and says Jihad is the duty of all Muslims should Islam be threatened... In fact when the Quran was written, and Islam was new (and there weren't many Muslims), Muslims were widely persecuted... And the wording of the Quran actually calls for the killing of non-Muslims (in that day and age) because non-Muslims persecuted Muslims... A sort of eye for an eye policy... The very founding of Islam was done through war with several battles fought between Muhammad and the Muslims and the non-Muslims in control of Mecca (between Mecca and Medina) within a decade of the religions founding and the Quran even has verses claiming divine intervention by God to win those battles and strike down the enemies of Islam...

Lets take a look in the obligations of a Muslim. Shall we? The spiritual problems that a person will face are the temptations to sin and disobey God. Just as God has reached out to the wickedness of man and brought mercy upon him, so should a Muslim do the same. Integrated within the Islamic religious manuscripts is the Arabic term "jihad," which is understood to mean "strive" or to "struggle." As it regards in Islam, jihad is the succeeding struggle against evil, which is the symbolism of holy war.Thereare passageswhere Muhammadclearly expresses that the struggle within one's self to not sin, is not only greater than external conflicts, but is the true jihad and means of salvation through self-refinement. This is what real Islamic scholars refer to as the Greater Jihad. I believe that this shows logical evidence that jihad of the heart and soul is more important than jihad by means to defend and obtain an Islamic state in the flesh. When you take into account the spiritual side of the Qu'ran it is much in line with Western thought.

A Muslim scholar named Salem Al-Hasi wrote: "The genuine purpose for fighting is to assure their freedom of religion and safety for their people; their lives and their belongings. In order to maintain that the fighting is in the cause of Allah, the target is limited to those that oppress the people. They should never transgress that defensive limit… In Shari'ah, or Muslim law, the jihad and obligations of the Muslim is living a life whereby one presents a good example of Islam and reflects its essence."

The Muslim's struggle then is not consideredonly to followers of Islam because injustice and oppression is the concerns for all of humanity. Although, their struggle (jihad) is a matter of keeping evil away from themselves and others and maintaining their faith in God. Murder is considered evil in the Qu'ran too.

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TommyWieseau81

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#127 TommyWieseau81
Member since 2011 • 455 Posts
Nope, I don't think all muslims are radical terrorists. The media seems wants us to believe there are though.
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phoenix-serpent

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#128 phoenix-serpent
Member since 2008 • 654 Posts

I am a Muslim. And i hate that...abomination. He shouldn't have been buried...it shouldn't have been buried i mean. Monsters should be blown to pieces in outer space. The sea is one polluted area now. Ours is a religion of peace (yeah i know most of my people aren't really portraying it like that :p ) but yeah, one less extremist makes the world a better place.

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phoenix-serpent

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#129 phoenix-serpent
Member since 2008 • 654 Posts

[QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Murder isn't banned in most religions? Yes it most certainly is.AmidstTheLight

It isn't in Islam... Islam isn't a "turn the other cheek" type of religion like Christianity is "supposed" to be... It actively says in the Quran you can use violence to protect Islam and says Jihad is the duty of all Muslims should Islam be threatened... In fact when the Quran was written, and Islam was new (and there weren't many Muslims), Muslims were widely persecuted... And the wording of the Quran actually calls for the killing of non-Muslims (in that day and age) because non-Muslims persecuted Muslims... A sort of eye for an eye policy... The very founding of Islam was done through war with several battles fought between Muhammad and the Muslims and the non-Muslims in control of Mecca (between Mecca and Medina) within a decade of the religions founding and the Quran even has verses claiming divine intervention by God to win those battles and strike down the enemies of Islam...

Lets take a look in the obligations of a Muslim. Shall we? The spiritual problems that a person will face are the temptations to sin and disobey God. Just as God has reached out to the wickedness of man and brought mercy upon him, so should a Muslim do the same. Integrated within the Islamic religious manuscripts is the Arabic term "jihad," which is understood to mean "strive" or to "struggle." As it regards in Islam, jihad is the succeeding struggle against evil, which is the symbolism of holy war.Thereare passageswhere Muhammadclearly expresses that the struggle within one's self to not sin, is not only greater than external conflicts, but is the true jihad and means of salvation through self-refinement. This is what real Islamic scholars refer to as the Greater Jihad. I believe that this shows logical evidence that jihad of the heart and soul is more important than jihad by means to defend and obtain an Islamic state in the flesh. When you take into account the spiritual side of the Qu'ran it is much in line with Western thought.

A Muslim scholar named Salem Al-Hasi wrote: "The genuine purpose for fighting is to assure their freedom of religion and safety for their people; their lives and their belongings. In order to maintain that the fighting is in the cause of Allah, the target is limited to those that oppress the people. They should never transgress that defensive limit… In Shari'ah, or Muslim law, the jihad and obligations of the Muslim is living a life whereby one presents a good example of Islam and reflects its essence."

The Muslim's struggle then is not consideredonly to followers of Islam because injustice and oppression is the concerns for all of humanity. Although, their struggle (jihad) is a matter of keeping evil away from themselves and others and maintaining their faith in God. Murder is considered evil in the Qu'ran too.

Well said sir. External, or fighting/war Jihad is only applicable, say you come and try to destroy my home, my heritage, religion, culture, and stuff. Not what the guy a post above just said. Say, you fight me and then stop. And i can suppress you, God says to forgive and forget, in Islam. Like the Prophet did. The people of Al-Taif hurled stones at him until his shoes were full of blood. He prayed to God not to destroy them, but to make them righteous and forgive them. Jihad was carried out when the Mekkans attacked the Muslims and so a battle was fought at Badr. And conduct during war has also been enforced by the Prophet: those who do not cause problems mustn't be fought, women, children and old will always be spared. Property, honour and culture will not be harmed and trees and crops which bring fruit will not be harmed. Prisoners of war will be treated justly. Educated ones must provide educational services for freedom, poor will be freed without ransom and rich must pay. Just look closely buddies. It's really is a peaceful religion.
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kuraimen

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#130 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
He was a holy warrior of islam. In the crusades there were holy christian warriors too. Many christians now disagree with the idea of a holy warrior as many muslims disagree with the idea of a holy warrior too.
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AmidstTheLight

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#131 AmidstTheLight
Member since 2008 • 207 Posts

@phoenix-serpentExactly. If this was better represtented in the media or documentaries then we wouldn't keep being pushed apart. I'm actually a Christian and I believe that Islam is just a refined version of Judiaism and Christianity. Doesn't the Qu'ran have the saying that we are toforgive seventy times seven like in the New Testament? I'm a Christian that believes thateveryonedoesn't haveto pray to Jesus to go to heaven though either, so maybe I'm a Muslim.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#132 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

[QUOTE="fabz_95"]

I don't consider him as a Muslim; he was a mass murderer and murder is something that is forbidden in Islam and in the majority of other religions.

Theokhoth

No its not.

Murder isn't banned in most religions? Yes it most certainly is.

That depends who you talk to, historically death has been justified countless times through supposed believers.. Who is right? You? Them? Its completely subjective seeing as we can not ask the original authors about their messages they placed with in their religious books. The only thing you can say is you believe that your religion doesn't support that.. And thats about it.

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HoolaHoopMan

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#133 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

[QUOTE="Commander-Gree"][QUOTE="Harisemo"]

what makes you think bin laden didn't regret it (if he killed innocent people)? all sins can be forgiven if one asks for forgiveness.

Harisemo

Because at the time of his death he was still actively plotting terrorist attacks.

I don't trust what CIA tells me. I believe bin laden would never deliberately target innocent people because he himself said so.

What the hell would call the 9/11 attacks then?
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PerfectCircles

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#134 PerfectCircles
Member since 2009 • 2359 Posts
I don't know enough about Islam to say.
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#135 deactivated-61cc564148ef4
Member since 2007 • 10909 Posts

I don't know enough about Islam to say. PerfectCircles

Your sig ruined my night!

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PerfectCircles

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#136 PerfectCircles
Member since 2009 • 2359 Posts

[QUOTE="PerfectCircles"]I don't know enough about Islam to say. OB-47

Your sig ruined my night!

No love for Zombie Boy and Zombie Gaga?
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Danm_999

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#137 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts
He wasn't in the sense that he didn't reflect the views of most Muslims in the world. Honestly, if nearly a billion around the world actually agreed with and supported OBL's methods, you'd know it. People sometimes forget Muslims hated him just as much, if not more, than Christians and Westerners, because the vast majority of Al Qaeda operations kill other Muslims, and because it gives their entire religion such a bad press in the West.
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GazaAli

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#138 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts
He was a lunatic, and anyone who likes him is too.
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xfxfxfanatikx

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#139 xfxfxfanatikx
Member since 2005 • 436 Posts

If your beliefs are consistent with the core values of a religion, you can receive a burial of that religion. Many Muslims thought that OBL should be buried in an Islamic manner. Does that mean that OBL's beliefs were consistent with Islamic teachings?

spacesheikh

He did not recieve an Islamic Burial...

He should have been given one.

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Disturbed123

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#140 Disturbed123
Member since 2005 • 1665 Posts

1) Bin Laden was a wahabi, and many question whether this kind of "cult" is muslim or not. Many say no because of their extreme views towards society (Saudi Arabia) and odd ways of praying.

2) Bin Laden was part of the CIA, and killed people. 9/11 also consisted of muslims too, and the Quran clearly states if one kills, it is like he/she has killed the entire race. If one saves, its like he/she has saved the entire race.

3) Bin Laden did not have a proper buriel. Islam clearly portrays a proper buriel is janazah->Buriel-> Dua. No where does it say disposing of body at sea is even remotely islamic.

4) Conclusion - He was muslim by name only. If David Beckham changed his name to "Abdul Aziz", does that make him a muslim? Nope. Just a simple case of an arab name, thus, not muslim. This is a case for all talibans. Vendettas and killing is against islam (only permissable at war for defense, not offence), especially things like 9/11. I mean seriously, WTF Bin Laden, how stupid were you?

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_R34LiTY_

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#141 _R34LiTY_
Member since 2008 • 3331 Posts

From the little i've seen/read about the man, it would appear he was somewhat a decent muslim. At this point, it really does seem that he was just another phantom menace that the US used to their whim much like they did with Saddam Hussein.