Qur'an Recommendations

Of course you wouldn't understand. I've been saying this, it's pointless to reason with someone like you who's gonna keep repeating the same fkn questions without ever mustering up the courage to actually search thoroughly on the matter.


Islam forbids women to show off their bodies just to preserve their dignity and lessen the chances of vile gazes: Check
Islam suggests married women to always accompany their husbands when they go out and vice versa to increase their inner chemistry plus ensuring a more secure outside trip: Check
Islam forbids women to have explicit relationships with other men apart from their husbands for their personal security and the security of the relationship overall: Check
Islam forbids unmarried women to accompany unknown men and even talk to them for their own safety and even if they somewhat have to, then they should be accompanied by their father or brother or she should keep her meeting as short as possible: Check
Islam forbids women to stay alone with a 'non-mahram' (any man who's not her husband, father or brother) man to preserve her chastity and protect her from the evils of the society: Check.

That's what I and we muslims and the people who have the minutest amount of intelligence gifted to them call being 'concerned'. And that's exactly what you call being sexist. *slow clapping*


So does all your posts.

You've been saying I'm brainwashed when that clearly isn't the case. The only one repeating any type of dogma is you, no matter if it makes any logical sense or not.

Women and men are free to show off their bodies as much as they want. In my society individuals are held to account for their own actions. We don't make excuses like "Oh she was dressed too provocatively." to excuse disgusting crimes like rape. Looking hurts nobody. A benevolent, intelligent God would realize that.

Women can decide for themselves if they want to go out unaccompanied or not. With whichever sex they want. They don't need religious scripture to make some excuse as to why a man always has to be with a women.

Women are free to have sexual relations with anybody they want. Human sexuality is natural and not shameful. It's not legal for women in the west to be killed because they had sex for pleasure and not out of marriage requirements.

Again, women are free to do whatever they wish.

Also again, women are free to do what they want.

You just did a bang up job at proving why Islam is a disgusting religion. You are actively advocating the oppression of women. The sad thing is you aren't even ashamed of yourself.

Obviously not since you seem to be understanding all of my posts quite well.

Ehh even though I don't agree with the "take it literally" thing I have to say I've been quite literal in this case. So maybe you need to try to listen for once in your life.

You're making me angry. When did I say women are NOT capable of maintaining and protecting the society!? In fact I said they're quite capable of doing so even in warfare. You have female police officers? So do we. You've been living under a rock or something? We too have female firefighters and paramedics and doctors and lawyers. We even have female jet-pilots. (I only heard the news yesterday) So either start talking sense or leave this thread.

I said God doesn't want women to go through the traumas that come with these stressful jobs. So our society is based on the idea that women should be "pampered". If they don't want that they're free to do what they want. But they can't and should not change the fabric of the society. Because in Islam society should be shaped in a way that benefits the majority most. There's always room for woman individuals to become what they want but as I said they're not allowed to change the fabric of the society unless the majority agrees with them. And from my experience and also the history of mankind it seems that women who rather not do stressful jobs have always been the majority.

This is it. I'm done with you. Find someone else to troll.

SHE...

I couldn't help but LOL. Right on the spot (no pun intended) Sniper.

The book is either taken literally, or it isn't. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Now you're playing semantics. The only ones not making any sense are the Muslims in this thread. Great! Your country is far more moderate than other nations of Islam. Now maybe you should go all the way and stop supporting a book that doesn't make any sense.

What does it matter what God wants? You have yet to give me one reason why myself, or anybody else, should care. They can and should be allowed to change the fabric of society. They are humans with the exact same rights as men. Islam doesn't benefit the majority most. Not when it oppresses women. The difference between me and you is that I know it's not a bad thing to have women on equal footing as men. I work with women. I have an amazing woman that shares life with me. She isn't forced to do anything she doesn't want to. If I tried to rape her or beat her she'd probably kill me and she'd be legally allowed to do so. She can go out with her girlfriends, or out with her male friends, and not be in danger of being killed by the church police. Don't give me some fucking nonsense of what benefits the majority most. You have no idea what the majority wants.

Also, if you think calling me a she is going to stop me from stomping every disgusting and vile thing you say, you have another thing coming.

I'm trolling you? You're just incapable of seeing why your religion is wrong. Don't get angry at me for that.

The hilarious thing is is that you think you're getting to me when in reality you're just making yourself, and the people that are agreeing with you, look even more stupid. Please continue, sparky.

Oh yes you are. You're a brainwashed feminist. You are what I thought you would be. My instincts are always correct. They didn't fail me now as well.

My religion is wrong? says someone who doesn't know shit about it. Seriously dude, there's a limit to how many fucks I can shit about a person and I shit you a nullion fucks. Do you know what a nullion is? it's from the word 'nullus' which means 'nothing' so a nullion is '0,000,000'. So, it's not just 'nothing'. It's a WHOLE LOT of nothing.

See? I even started cussing. That's just shows I can't take you seriously.

Again, you're using a word that you don't even understand the definition of. You should stop.

I know plenty about it, as I just demonstrated. I showed you why it's hogwash for a religion to care if someone dresses decently or not. I showed you that women are capable of going out alone without a man to protect them.

You don't have to care, or take me seriously. That doesn't make you correct. It makes you incapable of defending your beliefs. Which in turn makes you brainwashed.

The stupidity in this thread is astounding. I don't think you're SNIPER. I've never seen him use "haha".

I made a post asking for a recommendation. How did it turn into this?

Your right princess i am just programmed clone with all his badassness in me so in way im SNIPER.

feel free to call me Mr. BADASS, SNIPER, or manly man clone. either one works

I think I'll just continue to ignore you.

The Shakir version is not carried by my library. I've already ordered the Y. Ali one.

Responded to you*.

Again, I don't need to know it's definition. Because it is what YOU think it is and what YOU think is what I shit not.

No you didn't, you failed thoroughly. You failed to the extent where I didn't even feel like defending my views. And the reason is, you have no idea about what you're talking against. That puts you in a bad position by default.

Because I'm already standing 'corrected'. If the subject matter was something like 'God's existence' or something then not knowing the other person's views would've been a no big deal. But the subject here is the treatment of women and you don't have any idea about how women in Islam are treated except for some crap you probably heard on an American TV news channel. You fail, by default.

...I think you need to calm down and get a grip on reality before you make another post. "Because it is what YOU think it is and what YOU think is what I shit not" makes NO SENSE in any way. It's almost like you just cobbled words together on a whim and prayed to Allah that they would make sense.

You have to prove that. You haven't. In fact, not even trying to prove me wrong means you aren't contending my point. That's how debates work.

I have a pretty good idea because you told me not even a few posts ago. I then showed you why all of those don't matter, or why they're ridiculous. You then lost your mind. And here we are. Get back to me when you can start speaking some sense.

I am ignoring you. I can still make fun of you and ignore everything you say.

Thats some mental gymnastics there to get to such an interpretation. If it was about strength, then shouldn't it have simply been "Strong men have a status above women".... because the original statement still holds true for weak men. Or how about "the strong have a status above the weak" would not only be far less ambiguous, would hold true regardless of sex or age.

No, the most common sense interpretation of that statement is that men hold a (class) status above women. Otherwise, bringing in sex would hold no value.

@alim298 said:

It shouldn't be odd at all that a really old book is interpreted by people as different. Despite the fact that the Quran is supposed to be the final words of God, it seems awfully strange to be so open to interpretation. But in any case all those statements are dumb. They still signify that men have an implicit power over women be it as their guardians or masters.

Sorry, being a man doesn't simply give you power over anything. A consensual relationship where in one persons chooses to take care of or being taken care of does. Simply being born with an XY gene is not what makes someone a protector.

Do you really not see whats wrong with the analogy that women are like property and you have the right to enter your property when you please? And that its a compliment to treat them as if they were property. Last time i checked property has neither feelings nor the ability to consent and object. Women in fact do.

This quote doesn't have anything to do with earning money so i've little idea why you're bringing it up. In the case of this any family assets split up, then men will be given twice as much as the females. Why? "Because men are the ones who should financially support their family." These statement implies that a man without a family should inherit more than, say, his widowed sister with a child.

You know who are the ones who should financially support their family? Responsible adults regardless of their sex. But no, in Islam, the de facto rule is that men should get more simply on the basis of them being men and not responsible parents. Either this concept was far too complex for the idiots who wrote the Quran to understand.... Or they wrote books that maintained the status quo of the 600's where women were generally considered 2nd (if not lower) class humans.

But no, the Quran is a book about love and tolerance.

It makes sense. If you stop praying to 'science' and 'feminism' to NOT let it make any sense to you, it will make sense.

The problem here is your fundamental view of things. Which can't be revamped by a simple debate over the internet. You need to learn Islam by yourself.

That was like not even the 10% of the whole thing. Basics bae basics. Your wrong from the roots. I can't argue with someone like that. In fact, nobody can.

It makes NO sense. It sounds like something a 12 year old would say when they're throwing a tantrum.

The problem here is your archaic beliefs and your stubborn attachment to a reprehensible religion.

So tell me more and I'll continue to prove you wrong. Basics bae basics? Do you even understand what it is you're saying? I argue with many people on this website, and they argue back. You're in the minority. You see how you only have Alim and alts to back you up? That should tell you how wrong you are.

Truth is easy to deny, but hard to erase.

Archaic beliefs: Check
Stubborn Attachment: Check
Reprehensible Religion: Check

^That just screams prejudice to me.

Ok, if I actually begin to argue, I'll have to :
1. Explain the concept of Hijab and the reasoning that Islam have behind it
2. Explain the logic behind the restrictions that Islam imposes on women.
3. Explain the flexibility that Islam provides women.
4. Explain the status of women in Islamic society.
5. Explain the logic that Islam have behind the emphasis on preserving the chastity of women.
6. Explain why Islam doesn't put physical duties on women.
7. Explain that most of those restrictions are actually mere suggestions.
8. Explain that women are NOT oppressed.
9. Explain how the muslim women feel or think about all this.
10. Explain that ALL to an American who's an atheist with feminist views.

Sounds like a lot of work. Do me a favor will ya? do your own research. If you have any questions regarding your research, then you're most welcome to ask me.

If I'm prejudiced it's because of users like you and Alim who make your religion out to be extremely vile.

No, it's on you to prove to me that Islam doesn't oppress women. Not me to do your work for you. I'll be here when you come up with a decent argument.

Men hold a status above women only in physical attributes. Even weak men can do jobs that the strongest of the women can't. It's all about the nature of gender. Women aren't cut out for jobs like war, heavy construction work etc. That's where men have the upper hand. The place where women have the upper hand in Islamic society is 'dignity' and 'respect'. There's a famous hadith that says "Paradise lies beneath the feet of your mother". Again, once a companion asked Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) "Who is the most deserving of my respect?" and Prophet replied, "Your mother", then he again asked "And after her?", the Prophet again said "Your mother". The Companion repeated his question three times and got the same answer, at the fourth iteration, Prophet replied "Your father". Prophet once said, "The best among men is the one who's the best to his wife and the worst among men is the one who's bad towards his wife". Both the genders belong to one another once they're MARRIED. Quran says in Surah-al-Baqara "Your women are your garment and you are their garment". Neither can transgress their limits that have been mentioned in the Quran.

That 'power' is just and I repeat JUST the power of being a 'protector' of the women. Once you're married to a woman, everything about her is your responsibility. Her safety, her needs, her wishes, her demands and literally everything except the things that transgress the limits imposed on both the parties. Don't rush it here, read the Quran. And that was why I suggested you to read the Tafseer as well but here's an alternative, read this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar-Raheeq_Al-Makhtum
It's the most accurate book available on the life of Prophet Muhammad. That will explain you the status of women in the Islamic society.

That's just one verse. In another verse, Quran also states that men are their property as well but it states that in an indirect way. It's the right of the women to get their sexual needs fulfilled from their husbands and vice versa. If one party insists while the other is not feeling up to it, then there is the option to demand a divorce available to both. But before divorce, a thorough negotiation is preferred. If man refuses to have intercourse with his woman, then the woman has the complete right to protest. If the woman is refusing, then the man has the right to do so. But if there's a reason behind refusing like the wife is ill so she can't or the husband is too tired then there should be a compromise. It's a picky and a sensitive topic. And it's one of those topics that Islam handles with great care. Read Surah-an-Nisa to get a better view.

Men inherit double because for the women, the share gets equal when she receives that amount at her marriage from their husbands which is called "Mehar''. Men don't get any dowry. Again, you're jumping to conclusions without actually reading the Quran. Plus, a woman have NO obligation to spend her money on her family. She can spend the way she wants while the man's first and foremost priority should be his wife, his children and his parents. While it is an obligation on the men, the women are completely exempted. And thus women don't even have to get a job. If they want to then they can but if they don't, there's no burden on them. Hell, it's not even the woman's job to groom her children. If she does, she'll be volunteering. It's all upon the man. The education of his children, their needs and stuff etc. Everything is the responsibility of the man. Even if the man never decides to get married, he still has the responsibility to handle his parents. And if he doesn't have any parents, then that settles it. He can live a lonely rich life. But his wealth will be consumed anyway by the annual charity that every muslim, male or female has to pay.

Yes, the Quran is the book of tolerance and love but only for those who read it and understood it.

@airshocker: read the post above^

Has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Has every answer to your every question. Let me remind you what were your questions.

No, it's on you to prove to me that Islam doesn't oppress women.

If Hijab is your question, then m8. It's gonna be a long night.

I think it's best to just stay away from that book. Way too much hate spread by that shitty text...

I always read it while eating some bacon and pork chops. ;)

@i_return said:

Men hold a status above women only in physical attributes. Even weak men can do jobs that the strongest of the women can't. It's all about the nature of gender. Women aren't cut out for jobs like war, heavy construction work etc. That's where men have the upper hand.

Every single one of theses sentences are generalizations and false.

@i_return said: There's a famous hadith that says "Paradise lies beneath the feet of your mother". Again, once a companion asked Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) "Who is the most deserving of my respect?" and Prophet replied, "Your mother", then he again asked "And after her?", the Prophet again said "Your mother". The Companion repeated his question three times and got the same answer, at the fourth iteration, Prophet replied "Your father". Prophet once said, "The best among men is the one who's the best to his wife and the worst among men is the one who's bad towards his wife". Both the genders belong to one another once they're MARRIED. Quran says in Surah-al-Baqara "Your women are your garment and you are their garment". Neither can transgress their limits that have been mentioned in the Quran.

Personally, i don't believe a mother deserves infinite respect simply because she gave birth. A deadbeat birth giver isn't a mother: its just a woman who gave birth. An actual mother deserves respect. I see it as rather silly to give such deference so unconditionally. But thats exactly the reason why i can't worship any kind of higher power

@i_return said: That's just one verse. In another verse, Quran also states that men are their property as well but it states that in an indirect way. It's the right of the women to get their sexual needs fulfilled from their husbands and vice versa. If one party insists while the other is not feeling up to it, then there is the option to demand a divorce available to both. But before divorce, a thorough negotiation is preferred. If man refuses to have intercourse with his woman, then the woman has the complete right to protest. If the woman is refusing, then the man has the right to do so. But if there's a reason behind refusing like the wife is ill so she can't or the husband is too tired then there should be a compromise. It's a picky and a sensitive topic. And it's one of those topics that Islam handles with great care. Read Surah-an-Nisa to get a better view.

You conveniently left out the part that women who initiate divorces frequently suffer significantly more difficulties in both proof are repercussions than a man initiating a divorce. Women have a longer waiting period, frequently have to repay any dowry and/or marriage expenses, and may have forfeit custody of their child. And divorced women are generally frowned upon to live alone so most return with their parents.

But i mean, since men are physically stronger they are afforded more legal rights and expediency in legal matters. It has nothing at all to do with the fact that women are generally treated as 2nd class citizens.

@i_return said: Men inherit double because for the women, the share gets equal when she receives that amount at her marriage from their husbands which is called "Mehar''. Men don't get any dowry. Again, you're jumping to conclusions without actually reading the Quran. Plus, a woman have NO obligation to spend her money on her family. She can spend the way she wants while the man's first and foremost priority should be his wife, his children and his parents. While it is an obligation on the men, the women are completely exempted. And thus women don't even have to get a job. If they want to then they can but if they don't, there's no burden on them. Hell, it's not even the woman's job to groom her children. If she does, she'll be volunteering. It's all upon the man. The education of his children, their needs and stuff etc. Everything is the responsibility of the man. Even if the man never decides to get married, he still has the responsibility to handle his parents. And if he doesn't have any parents, then that settles it. He can live a lonely rich life. But his wealth will be consumed anyway by the annual charity that every muslim, male or female has to pay.

These are all just terrible excuses to justify why one deserves more than another entirely based on their sex. The simplest, obvious answer: give your children your inheritance based on merit. Got one child that is an irresponsible drunk that will waste all the inheritance? Nope, gotta give him 2/3rds cuz he's got a penis. Got a well-educated, well-adjusted daughter? Nope, she get 1/3rd.

Look, im fully willing to concede that Islamic states like Saudi Arabia are full of barbaric practices while they simple excuse it under the guise Islam; the misogyny is not an inherent practice in all of Islam. It tends to be a Saudi issue, or a Pakistan issue rather than one present globally in Islam. Hell, Indonesia is a comparatively progressive country with a very large Muslim population. But anyone would be a damned blind fool to not see that the Quran is such a useful enabler for such policies and practices. As are most other religions.

I don't really want to get involved in this, but this is really on the verge of generalization of Muslims and I would urge you to refrain. But don't think I'm picking on you exclusively. I've read through your guy's arguments and you both come off as idiots.