Muslim Scholar On How Islam Really Views Homosexuality

Interesting read. What say you, people of OT?

That's basically it except for the last paragraph which is the author's own reasoning.

What I really love about the article is this part which is pretty spot on:

Like Judaism, Islamic law (Shariah) has been developed by a clerical class that has always been more scholars than priests.

See, there's a difference between a Muslim scholar who says homosexuality is not permitted and a Christian priest who says the same thing. When a Muslim scholar says that it's not out of hate, it's not because of the story of Lot or because he finds it disgusting rather it's because that's what he understands from Quran and Sunnah. It's a law and nothing more than that.

being against people for their biology....pretty shitty.

Here's a better article to follow up with...

The hypocrisy of child abuse in many Muslim countries: Child marriage and pederasty are tolerated in Muslim societies where homosexuality is strictly condemned - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty

Reminds me of a conversation I had with my roommate who served in Afghanistan, and he was versed some in their culture. We were watching Kite Runner and there was that scene where the kid was raped by that religious conservative douchebag. And I pointed out like "how can they do that if they're so religiously strict" and he told me how that's actually okay with them because it's not gay since the one getting fucked is not really a man yet. Jeez. The article above points out this same tradition exists in parts of Pakistan. Boys as sex slaves it says are a symbol of social affluence. Not only is it okay to have sex with young boys but it's a symbol of social stature.

It also explains how in the Middle East it's common for young girls to get married off to older men and sometimes when they haven't even reached puberty, because intellectual maturity and not physical maturity is the basis for which young girls are force to marry older men. In places like Yemen, one quarter of young girls are married off before the age of 15.

The law is just cheap - it validates corporal punishment and an easy means to abstain from any remove any moral culpability. It's bet

The law is just weak - it validates corporal punishment and an easy means to absolve a person from any moral culpability. That's just poor really, bordering on saddening if it wasn't for this valium.

And it's still morally outdated.

This is TheGuardian so I wouldn't take it seriously if I were you. The people working in TheGuardian aren't simply news reporters they are news makers. They have a tendency for visiting the most unknown places, reporting on the most unknown incidents. Seriously some of the things they write, I as a Middle Eastern who knows some of the backward places of his country and the region too to some extent have never encountered.

Besides the article is talking about Pakistan and Afghanistan. I can tell for certain that it's a cultural thing among them as I've not seen nor heard of any such things existing among other Muslim countries except Afghanistan personally. Well Afghanistan is a poor country with an uneducated nation and it's not that hard to invent something in your religion like the permissibility of having intercourse with kids. (Which is totally ridiculous since as the article in the OP suggests there will be punishment for any sexual act outside of marriage anyway.)

Your friend hasn't seen the entire land of Afghanistan and has not met all the people and not every part of Afghanistan has the same culture so maybe tell your friend it's time to lay off that hasheesh pot and stop generalizing. Of course people want to justify their wrongdoings using anything including religion.

Well people who gave this guy the time of their day, well they have a problem in my opinion. So this isn't even a bit shocking to me. The guy seems like a Salafi to me. Funny how he talks about being a Sunni. They aren't Sunni. They are the only sect worthy of Takfeer for believing God has literal hands and literally sits on a throne. These Salafis...

-insert the f word- them.

That's why not all Muslim scholars agree with it...

That's good :) Because the ones who agree are wrong?

In my opinion, yes.

This is why a secular society is best: It can deal with the failings of religious scripture because it is always evolving. I don't care if Muslims practice Sharia. So long as they follow the secular laws of a country first.

You can't speak for every Muslim scholar. You have no idea what all of them think. Still, that doesn't change the fact that it's morally wrong to prevent people who are a certain way from having a lifestyle that affects no one but themselves.

lol Islam. Another outdated Abrahamic religion of love.

This how a country where 95% of the population is Christian and 90% of that 95% is Catholic views homosexuality: gay marriage ? ----> LEGAL and the religion and it´s "laws" can go straight to hell.

here is a more accurate depiction on how islam views homosexuality

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3146225/Thrown-deaths-ISIS-barbarians-gay-Men-pushed-head-fourth-storey-building-Islamists-latest-sickening-executions.html

You're kidding me, right? Your own prophet married and and consummated with an underage wife. The pinnacle of human excellence sure does enjoy some of the creepier things in life!

And what am I supposed to do here?

Congratulate you on your ignorance?

There are many refutations to the what you're proposing but what good would all that do when you westerns' responses are always in the form of:

LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I'M NOT HEARING YOU LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA

Get lost kid.

Not trying to start a discussion but just pointing out a few facts:

Well you don't either and I think we both can agree that I'm more qualified than you to know that.

"who are a certain way" Science is yet to prove this.

"Affects no one but themselves" Science is yet to prove this also. Besides you should bear in mind that Islamic laws aren't simply about prohibiting others from doing what may harm others. If the man himself may be harmed by committing a certain act, then it's still not permissible for him to commit that act.

Again I'm not trying to start a discussion here. I'm just pointing out the two reasons many Muslim Scholars still don't consider homosexuality permissible.

lol so good ol' Prophet Mo didn't marry an underage girl? Push that head of yours deeper into the sand, you're almost there!

I disagree here specifically due to the fact that Sharia law is a system that is prejudice and backwards.. We see shit like this in the United States when the government busts down a cult following in which we find out followers, specially women, were brainwashed into basically becoming slaves.. Or when we hear about some pretty terrible shit happening that comes out of the Amish community in which these things are all but covered up because they self govern themselves. They had a story about this very problem a few years back with the problem of sharia law being practiced by Muslims within Great Britain.. In which women were either intimidated or brainwashed to think that the only consultation for legal advice or marriage related things were these sharia institutions that heavily favors men rather than the actual legal system of Great Britain...

http://www.livescience.com/50058-being-gay-not-a-choice.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5120004.stm

it's been proven.

I never said that I did. Just because you are a Muslim doesn't make you any more qualified than me to know how somebody feels about a certain matter.

Science has yet to prove what? Are you doubting the existence of homosexuality?

Science doesn't need to prove that homosexuality doesn't affect anybody but the homosexuals themselves. It's common sense. Just like me being heterosexual doesn't affect anybody. Just because someone is gay has absolutely no effect on you or me. How would somebody be harmed by being gay? If you're going to say HIV, please don't. You don't need to be gay to get HIV, as thousands of people have demonstrated.

What does it matter what Muslim scholars find to be permissible? It's still morally wrong to be against it.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm saying I don't really care if it's practiced so long as they're following our secular laws first and foremost.

I know that doesn't often happen, but I see no practical way of stopping a religious group from using their religious texts as "laws" within their social communities. It's the same problem with the Hasidics here in New York. They have their own religious police that intimidate and keep the rest of the Hasidics in line. There's nothing us local cops can do about it other than make it known that there's help available for people who want to leave those communities.

Religion of peas in guacamole

That's completely sacrilege!

@lamprey263: Man I haven't heard of pedarasty happening in my country. Its quite sad people refuse to progress. I mean I read an article the other day stating that 90% of Afghani women are physically, sexually, or mentally abused. What could possibly possess you as a man to do that to your wife? Worst part is that the women who do try to escape from their tortured life have very places to go. Their families return them to their in laws without so much as batting an eye.

I'm confused, so homosexuality is bad, and pedophilia is ok?

Well, apparently that´s the way it is.

You lose all credibly when you chastise one group for saying something you think the other group is intellectual in saying. Stop the hypocrisy dude.

I believe catholic priests are saying its against the laws of their religion as well. Not out of hate either. But unfortunately most followers use it to foster hate.

I still don't understand why anyone would care about the opinions of fools who literally believe in magic...

"You se the see the straw in your neighbor´s eye but fail to see the beam in yours" ( one of those quotes I learned when I was Catholic ) so here we have Catholic priests preaching against homosexuality when the Catholic church is known to be safe haven for pedophile priests to the point that some of it´s most important personalities, Maciel Marcial, founder of one of the most powerful Catholic institutions ( Christ´s Legionnaires ) was not only a pedophile but also acused legally of rape in multiple occasions; maybe priests should shut the **** off and cease to condemn.

Hmm. I think what I said prior was a bit over the top. Sorry.

You don't care if someone is given the death penalty because they're gay? You know what you've just said here, right? You have said that you don't care if someone is murdered simply because they have a different sexuality than you.

I can't even express in words how disgusted I am with you.

Homophobia is an unofficial but key pillar of the abrahamic religions. This is nothing new, it's really what you would expect from any religion that comes from the sunstroked rantings of nomadic bronze age sheep ****ers.

It's incredibly ironic, isn't it?

Yes, and incredibly sad.

You're probably just trolling, but I'll bite.

Firstly, with the caveat that getting a firm date for anything in 7th century except the most notable events is impossible, I'll say it's worth mentioning that there has been dispute about Aisha's age almost from the founding of Islam.

Wikipedia lists among it's sources for saying Aisha was 9-10 at consummation of her marriage al Tabari, yet that same scholar wrote elsewhere that,

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.”

This would mean Aisha was at least three older, and possibly more, than Wikipedia listed for the date of consummation, as Islam started in 610 A.D. and Wikipedia says Aisha was born in 613 or 614 A.D.

The other Muslim source (and it's really the primary source for the western sources) they list for saying she was 6-7 at marriage and 9 at consummation are the Hadith collections by al-Bukhari, yet elsewhere al-Bukhari has her remembering her father fleeing to Ethiopia, which would have happened 5-6 years after Islam was began, if Wikipedia is right about her age she would have been only 2 years old when she had this memory, I don't remember any details of my life at that age, do you?

The Hadiths, especially the al-Bukhari Hadiths are highly respected for their authenticity, yet they are not considered infallible. They are works of scholarship, in this case Iranian scholarship that occurred hundreds of years after the events based on oral transmission.

To say it's an established historic fact Muhammad had sex with a pre-menstrual child is a lie. It is at best a disputed historic claim.

@Seiki_sands: 9-10 years old is still pedophilia

and there are sources other than wikipedia lol

@MakeMeaSammitch:

If you bothered to read what I wrote, or taken the time to comprehend it, you would know that it leads to the conclusion of a minimum 13-14, and possibly older.

The "other sources" primarily use the Hadith collections of al-Buckhari and the scholarship of al-Tabari, just like Wikipedia. Both of whom, as I wrote, contradicted their own work on the point. And both of whom were scholars hundreds years after the events, recording oral traditions among the arabs.

gwynnblade's post is pure filth. One of the worst posts ever written on OT.

Seriously. For once I'm at a loss for words.

All the more pleasure to me. The more you hate me, the more I know I'm in the 'right'.

gwynnblade said:

What's in this thread?

Yes, same old 30 year old high school dropouts who not a decade ago used to suck on Mama Liberty's tits and now have discovered the 'rebelliousness' to challenge their own foundations - nothing new.

Homosexuality simply doesn't fit in an Islamic society. I don't care if they're given death penalty or not. If they don't fit in, they don't fit in. Simple as that. I'm not a brain farter who in his utopian dream tries to accommodate everyone and ultimately has to shove his own turds up his anus. The enlightened community on here isn't even worth fucking up your brain for.

To quote Kent from Veep: I can't endorse this post but I acknowledge it lmao

You and alim have been on a roll lately. Us Muslim OTers are an insubordinate, eccentric bunch :3

Good thing i don't live in some backward ass country that has religious laws.

Other than that.. don't care.

You are a very troubled person if you believe innocent people should be murdered because of their sexuality.

And you...

You talk about being intelligent and enlightened. You should have been the first person to rebuke that post.

Yet you didn't. You sit here and make light of it.

Apparently circle jerking with your fellow Muslims is more important than being a decent human being.