Is Christianity made by man or by God?

[QUOTE="mig_killer2"][QUOTE="GFahim"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="GFahim"]matthew and luke were'nt even born when Jesus (may peace be upon him) was alive. but they are the ones who wrote the bible! soooo, this religion definitely has been invented by man...GFahim

And where did you get this tidbit of information? What of the other ten diciples?

i got this info from the 'history'. but the main thing is that those 'disciples' or whatever who wrote the bible simply tells us that it has been written by man. how simple can it get?!

additionally, if a bible has contradictions, then it cannot be from God because God is Perfect. ...or are you saying He isn't? (May Allah frogive me)

and don't bother saying that there are no contradictions coz we all know that there are. for e.g, in one verse, it says, 'the earth is flat' and in the other verse it says, 'the earth is a circle'. so that means its saying that the earth is a 'flat circle'! which obviously is not. no matter how many contradictios there are, if there is even just one, then it is not from God. its as simple as that.

cheerios my friend and have a deep think about that....

it doesn't matter who wrote it but the fact that it has been of his (john or whoever) words and that it has at least one contradictions means that logically, it has been invented by man

check above

i got to go sleep, its 2 30am...

yes im Muslim (all Praise be to God)

[QUOTE="hillelslovak"]All religions are made by men.GFahim

who made you? or do you think you somehow existed by chance? the odds of that (by putting every chemical substances in perspective) is 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...basically infinite (according to scientists)

Constantine invented Christianity...Greedo_What

Here's a link to an online library

www.ctlibrary..com/ch/2004/issue82/8.15.html

[QUOTE="GFahim"]

[QUOTE="hillelslovak"]All religions are made by men.Funkdaddy13

who made you? or do you think you somehow existed by chance? the odds of that (by putting every chemical substances in perspective) is 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...basically infinite (according to scientists)

It's fair to say religion is a man made construct. Religion is not God and God is not religion. If you worship creation in place of the creator, it's called idolatry. Christianity is what christians use to seek God out in their lives. God is the spiritual source and goal of christianity but is not christianity itself. As far as living a moral life goes, one of my best friends is an avowed atheist and the other is an agnostic and they have no problem leading the same moral life that I do, but I'm not extremely conservative. I believe the best part of the bible as far as guidlines goes is Matthew 25:37-40. The gist of what Jesus said on the mount of olives was, "Whatever you did to the least of my people, you did to me." I think a lot of people forget that part, which leads to the problems people love to point out (they're generally accurate).

Also, Freud basically said, "Religion keeps you psychologicall infantile, and it's just a way of meeting needs (not a word for word quote obviously, just a summation). If you're afraid to make your own decisions it's comforting to know (think)that God will tell you what to do but the error is that humans have free will specifically because if you are incapable of acting imorally, moral action is impossible. God doesn't make people do things. People don't have to make their own decisions, but God isn't the one who is going to say, "Yes, by that car." It definately keeps some people infantile, and fulfills the need of young humans to be commanded (if you believe inFreud's developmental stages).

There are plenty of fair criticisms of religion, but just because flaws exist doesn't mean that it should be discarded. For instance, Early christians were far from ruling countries. The governments perverted religion for there own needs. Modern examples include El Salvador, where the poor were told by the clergy at the behest of the government that it was necessary for them to be poor, because God wished it to be so. The power hungry would use other means if religion did not exist, obviously. For instance, look at the Soviet Union. Religion was completely illegal and yet Stalin still was able to keep his position. Political corruption and oppression will exist without religion, and sociopaths like Stalin will use whatever means they can to rule. Some just choose to pervert peoples' deepest beliefs for their own gain.

Would you say that the Salvation Army is doing a bad thing. They're the only homeless shelter opperating in most cities. I live in the state capital of Washington, and they're the only shelter the people can realistically rely on. The Saint Vincent du Paul society helps people with rent money, utility bills, and all kinds of things like that. Catholic community services providefree secular counseling, drive people to doctors appointments, and build appartments for low income people. This list is rather short, but these are things I know about in my community, I'm not gonna belt off every single one of em. I can guarantee that something similar, if not the same, exists wherever you live.

I'm definately not saying there aren't flaws, but ignoring the good religious people do and focusing on the flawsaloneis close-minded, bigotted, and fairly childish (not that the TC is being those things, I'm just making a comment on most of the criticisms I've heard).

shamuk

Thank you for your thoughtful reply but I think you somewhat missed the point.

You say that God and religion are separate but I am yet to discover anyone who is accepted as a Christian without a belief in God and an acceptance of Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour. If Christianity and God were seperate then surely your friends who share your morals would be considered Christians rather than Atheists and Agnostics. I'm not saying that you can't have the morality of a Christian without the belief in God but surely you can't have religion without God. What I am saying is that not everyone can act morally without the motivation of religion hence my hypothesis that it is a creation of mankind.

The point of my argument was not to discredit the content of religion (both the good and the bad) just the origin of it. I am not trying to subvert the good behavior that arises from Christianity (salvation army) nor condemn the bad (Stalin etc) I am merely trying to arrive at a rational point of its origin.

if u see a computer, u would say it surely had a designer/programmer. so if take a look at your own body, universe, which is very very complex, it surely must have had designer/programmer. i mean, how the hell did all this exist simply by chance? its crazy man.! just ponder over that for a while... its like im saying that if i throw hydrogen, carbon and oxygen in the air infinite amount of times, it will one day create a computer for example or even a living thing. but obviously, this sounds stupid!

[QUOTE="Decessus"]I think anybody who takes the study of history seriously has to come to the conclusion that Christianity, like all religions, are a product of human creativity. They were created during a time of profound human ignorance, and were attempts to come to terms with the world around them.Silver_Dragon17

I could say the same, except instead of your conclusion, I think history only helps confirm Christianity.

If that is the case, I would like you to explain how the ancient Mesopotamian religions, as well as the ancient Egyptian religions support the idea that Christianity is divinely inspired.

[QUOTE="shamuk"]

It's fair to say religion is a man made construct. Religion is not God and God is not religion. If you worship creation in place of the creator, it's called idolatry. Christianity is what christians use to seek God out in their lives. God is the spiritual source and goal of christianity but is not christianity itself. As far as living a moral life goes, one of my best friends is an avowed atheist and the other is an agnostic and they have no problem leading the same moral life that I do, but I'm not extremely conservative. I believe the best part of the bible as far as guidlines goes is Matthew 25:37-40. The gist of what Jesus said on the mount of olives was, "Whatever you did to the least of my people, you did to me." I think a lot of people forget that part, which leads to the problems people love to point out (they're generally accurate).

Also, Freud basically said, "Religion keeps you psychologicall infantile, and it's just a way of meeting needs (not a word for word quote obviously, just a summation). If you're afraid to make your own decisions it's comforting to know (think)that God will tell you what to do but the error is that humans have free will specifically because if you are incapable of acting imorally, moral action is impossible. God doesn't make people do things. People don't have to make their own decisions, but God isn't the one who is going to say, "Yes, by that car." It definately keeps some people infantile, and fulfills the need of young humans to be commanded (if you believe inFreud's developmental stages).

There are plenty of fair criticisms of religion, but just because flaws exist doesn't mean that it should be discarded. For instance, Early christians were far from ruling countries. The governments perverted religion for there own needs. Modern examples include El Salvador, where the poor were told by the clergy at the behest of the government that it was necessary for them to be poor, because God wished it to be so. The power hungry would use other means if religion did not exist, obviously. For instance, look at the Soviet Union. Religion was completely illegal and yet Stalin still was able to keep his position. Political corruption and oppression will exist without religion, and sociopaths like Stalin will use whatever means they can to rule. Some just choose to pervert peoples' deepest beliefs for their own gain.

Would you say that the Salvation Army is doing a bad thing. They're the only homeless shelter opperating in most cities. I live in the state capital of Washington, and they're the only shelter the people can realistically rely on. The Saint Vincent du Paul society helps people with rent money, utility bills, and all kinds of things like that. Catholic community services providefree secular counseling, drive people to doctors appointments, and build appartments for low income people. This list is rather short, but these are things I know about in my community, I'm not gonna belt off every single one of em. I can guarantee that something similar, if not the same, exists wherever you live.

I'm definately not saying there aren't flaws, but ignoring the good religious people do and focusing on the flawsaloneis close-minded, bigotted, and fairly childish (not that the TC is being those things, I'm just making a comment on most of the criticisms I've heard).

domatron23

Thank you for your thoughtful reply but I think you somewhat missed the point.

You say that God and religion are separate but I am yet to discover anyone who is accepted as a Christian without a belief in God and an acceptance of Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour. If Christianity and God were seperate then surely your friends who share your morals would be considered Christians rather than Atheists and Agnostics. I'm not saying that you can't have the morality of a Christian without the belief in God but surely you can't have religion without God. What I am saying is that not everyone can act morally without the motivation of religion hence my hypothesis that it is a creation of mankind.

The point of my argument was not to discredit the content of religion (both the good and the bad) just the origin of it. I am not trying to subvert the good behavior that arises from Christianity (salvation army) nor condemn the bad (Stalin etc) I am merely trying to arrive at a rational point of its origin.

if u see a computer, u would say it surely had a designer/programmer. so if take a look at your own body, universe, which is very very complex, it surely must have had designer/programmer. i mean, how the hell did all this exist simply by chance? its crazy man.! just ponder over that for a while... its like im saying that if i throw hydrogen, carbon and oxygen in the air infinite amount of times, it will one day create a computer for example or even a living thing. but obviously, this sounds stupid!GFahim

if u see a computer, u would say it surely had a designer/programmer. so if take a look at your own body, universe, which is very very complex, it surely must have had designer/programmer. i mean, how the hell did all this exist simply by chance? its crazy man.! just ponder over that for a while... its like im saying that if i throw hydrogen, carbon and oxygen in the air infinite amount of times, it will one day create a computer for example or even a living thing. but obviously, this sounds stupid!GFahim

Yes I've heard that before but we're discussing the origin of religion here not the origin of man. There are about a million other threads about that particular topic that you could look at

[QUOTE="Funkdaddy13"][QUOTE="GFahim"]

[QUOTE="hillelslovak"]All religions are made by men.mig_killer2

who made you? or do you think you somehow existed by chance? the odds of that (by putting every chemical substances in perspective) is 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...basically infinite (according to scientists)

funkdaddy13's quote reply:

if u see a computer, u would say it surely had a designer/programmer. so if take a look at your own body, universe, which is very very complex, it surely must have had designer/programmer. i mean, how the hell did all this exist simply by chance? its crazy man.! just ponder over that for a while... its like im saying that if i throw hydrogen, carbon and oxygen in the air infinite amount of times, it will one day create a computer for example or even a living thing. but obviously, this sounds stupid!

GFahim

The Bible was written by man during the bronze age, of course it's just a piece of literature and nothing more.

Anyone who has studied a fair amount knows that it falls with in the same category as the Iliad, Odyssey, epics of Gilgamesh and other ancients texts. It's merely a text, and people use it as an insight into ancient human civilization and culture.

The Bible was written by man during the bronze age, of course it's just a piece of literature and nothing more.

Anyone who has studied a fair amount knows that it falls with in the same category as the Iliad, Odyssey, epics of Gilgamesh and other ancients texts. It's merely a text, and people use it as an insight into ancient human civilization and culture.

Donkey_Puncher

yes the bible was written by man but it is claimed thatit was divinely inspired by God. What do you think about the coincidences I mentioned earlier between religion and the needs of mankind

matthew and luke were'nt even born when Jesus (may peace be upon him) was alive. but they are the ones who wrote the bible! soooo, this religion definitely has been invented by man...GFahim

the bible was pieced together by man...not a god. Atleast as far as we can prove anyways. its very unlikely that in my life time we will prove or disprove the existance of a god

i think it was made up because 1. to provide explanation for the unknown 2. to control the population

yet still i hope there is a god because i don't want this to be the end.

crusher2002000

Nobody says anything has to be the end, infact just becauseyou don't think that we will go to heaven or hell does not mean we think that life on earth is the dead end.

There is still a lot of things that we don't know, we don't know 100% everything about the brain, infact with our knowledge we can't look to the end of our universe, look at the hubble deep feild, we are only looking as far as we currently can.

[QUOTE="GFahim"]matthew and luke were'nt even born when Jesus (may peace be upon him) was alive. but they are the ones who wrote the bible! soooo, this religion definitely has been invented by man...Silver_Dragon17

And where did you get this tidbit of information? What of the other ten diciples?

Gfahim, where in the world or who in the world told you that?

[QUOTE="mig_killer2"][QUOTE="Funkdaddy13"][QUOTE="GFahim"]

[QUOTE="hillelslovak"]All religions are made by men.Funkdaddy13

who made you? or do you think you somehow existed by chance? the odds of that (by putting every chemical substances in perspective) is 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...basically infinite (according to scientists)

I knew this would come up, such an amazing picture, and like I said before, we can't see that far yet.

show me godMe_Is_Pacman

It's the nature of the supernatural and God in particular to be unproval and unfalsifiable

[QUOTE="XenoNinja"]adam & eve sinned thusJudaism was born.Silver_Dragon17

All fix'd.:)

:)

Trying to boost your forum rankings? That makes God sad, using his name to get temporary fame :(groovdafied

What are forum rankings?

This thread brings nothing new to the age old religion topics in OT. Those without faith can't comprehend it...and it's as simple as that. Therefore, they use what man has discovered about the universe and make the facts fit their agenda. A God would be outside the realm of science and, thus, something they can't understand.

Suffice it to say that no one has the answers in a human perspective.

show me godMe_Is_Pacman

Show me your brain, or it doesn't exist.:|

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="Decessus"]I think anybody who takes the study of history seriously has to come to the conclusion that Christianity, like all religions, are a product of human creativity. They were created during a time of profound human ignorance, and were attempts to come to terms with the world around them.Decessus

I could say the same, except instead of your conclusion, I think history only helps confirm Christianity.

If that is the case, I would like you to explain how the ancient Mesopotamian religions, as well as the ancient Egyptian religions support the idea that Christianity is divinely inspired.

Well, to start off, they were naturalistic.

The gods of Egypt were not supernatural. They could do some neat things within nature, but they were a sort of by-product of nature itself. Such a religion is undeniably man-made, andcould not possibly last long.

A man-made religion cannot last. Humans are too stupid. If a human were to make a religion, even if it was very believable, it would be full of holes and would fall apart.

I don't know enough about the Mesopotamian religions to make a comment.

[QUOTE="Me_Is_Pacman"]show me godSilver_Dragon17

Show me your brain, or it doesn't exist.:|

The Christian God on the other hand....

[QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="Decessus"]I think anybody who takes the study of history seriously has to come to the conclusion that Christianity, like all religions, are a product of human creativity. They were created during a time of profound human ignorance, and were attempts to come to terms with the world around them.Silver_Dragon17

I could say the same, except instead of your conclusion, I think history only helps confirm Christianity.

If that is the case, I would like you to explain how the ancient Mesopotamian religions, as well as the ancient Egyptian religions support the idea that Christianity is divinely inspired.

Well, to start off, they were naturalistic.

The gods of Egypt were not supernatural. They could do some neat things within nature, but they were a sort of by-product of nature itself. Such a religion is undeniably man-made, andcould not possibly last long.

A man-made religion cannot last. Humans are too stupid. If a human were to make a religion, even if it was very believable, it would be full of holes and would fall apart.

I don't know enough about the Mesopotamian religions to make a comment.

A simple example being the conflict between an all knowing god and free will.

Chritianity has it's own holes.....

A simple example being the conflict between an all knowing god and free will.

yoshi-lnex

Why is it you always bring this up, even though I and many others have repeatedly refutted this claim? According to some people, free will doesn't exist anyway, so the problem is. . .

[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]Chritianity has it's own holes.....

A simple example being the conflict between an all knowing god and free will.

Silver_Dragon17

Why is it you always bring this up, even though I and many others have repeatedly refutted this claim? According to some people, free will doesn't exist anyway, so the problem is. . .

It's a very simple proof, and I have yet to see a flaw in it. It creates a paradox that shows that the Christian god doesn't exist.

1. The Chritian god is all knowing.

2. Free will exists

3. During and prior to creation, if the Chritian god is all knowing.

4. This would mean he knew everything that would happen at any given point in time.

5. Which implies every event had been predetermined by god at creation

6. This is directly contradictory to the hypothesis in statement 2, meaning and all knowing god and free will can not co-exist.

7. Because the bible says the Christian god created free will, and is all knowing, it has created a paradox in itself, only one or the other can exist.

Therefore the Christian god does not exist, or free will does not exist.

funkdaddy13's quote reply:

if u see a computer, u would say it surely had a designer/programmer. so if take a look at your own body, universe, which is very very complex, it surely must have had designer/programmer. i mean, how the hell did all this exist simply by chance? its crazy man.! just ponder over that for a while... its like im saying that if i throw hydrogen, carbon and oxygen in the air infinite amount of times, it will one day create a computer for example or even a living thing. but obviously, this sounds stupid!

GFahim

Computers aren't alive. Computers don't mutate or reproduce. Many chemical and physical processes are self-organizing. If you were to see a snowflake, you'd say that the intricately detailed symmetry points to a creator. But then you'd be absolutely wrong.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]Chritianity has it's own holes.....

A simple example being the conflict between an all knowing god and free will.

yoshi-lnex

Why is it you always bring this up, even though I and many others have repeatedly refutted this claim? According to some people, free will doesn't exist anyway, so the problem is. . .

It's a very simple proof, and I have yet to see a flaw in it. It creates a paradox that shows that the Christian god doesn't exist.

1. The Chritian god is all knowing.

2. Free will exists

3. During and prior to creation, if the Chritian god is all knowing.

4. This would mean he knew everything that would happen at any given point in time.

5. Which implies every event had been predetermined by god at creation

6. This is directly contradictory to the hypothesis in statement 2, meaning and all knowing god and free will can not co-exist.

7. Because the bible says the Christian god created free will, and is all knowing, it has created a paradox in itself, only one or the other can exist.

Therefore the Christian god does not exist, or free will does not exist.

There are two assumptions in your paradox:

1: Free will exists. For all we know, everything we do is the mere actions of our brains. . .which some people believe. Meaning free will does NOT exist, and God does.

2: God started at creation. God is at every point in time, at the same time, doing whatever He does at that time. This would mean that God would be seeing the future happening as it was happening while He was creating the world. . .meaning, past and future do not exist, and there is only the present. Which means that God dosn't see what's GOING to happen, but what's HAPPENING. Get it?

[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]Chritianity has it's own holes.....

A simple example being the conflict between an all knowing god and free will.

Silver_Dragon17

Why is it you always bring this up, even though I and many others have repeatedly refutted this claim? According to some people, free will doesn't exist anyway, so the problem is. . .

It's a very simple proof, and I have yet to see a flaw in it. It creates a paradox that shows that the Christian god doesn't exist.

1. The Chritian god is all knowing.

2. Free will exists

3. During and prior to creation, if the Chritian god is all knowing.

4. This would mean he knew everything that would happen at any given point in time.

5. Which implies every event had been predetermined by god at creation

6. This is directly contradictory to the hypothesis in statement 2, meaning and all knowing god and free will can not co-exist.

7. Because the bible says the Christian god created free will, and is all knowing, it has created a paradox in itself, only one or the other can exist.

Therefore the Christian god does not exist, or free will does not exist.

There are two assumptions in your paradox:

1: Free will exists. For all we know, everything we do is the mere actions of our brains. . .which some people believe. Meaning free will does NOT exist, and God does.

2: God started at creation. God is at every point in time, at the same time, doing whatever He does at that time. This would mean that God would be seeing the future happening as it was happening while He was creating the world. . .meaning, past and future do not exist, and there is only the present. Which means that God dosn't see what's GOING to happen, but what's HAPPENING. Get it?

"....Which means that God dosn't see what's GOING to happen..."

This would mean that the Christian god is not all knowing, directly contradiciting the bible.

1 and 2 are the hypothesis which is based upon biblical readings. In a logical proof, the hypothesis is always assumed, but can be shown to be incorrect based upon the conclusion, something I did.

"....Which means that God dosn't see what's GOING to happen..."

This would mean that the Christian god is not all knowing, directly contradiciting the bible.

yoshi-lnex

No, it would mean God doesn't NEED to see the future. . .like you omitted. It doesn't mean He can't, it just means He doesn't need to.

[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]1 and 2 are the hypothesis which is based upon biblical readings. In a logical proof, the hypothesis is always assumed, but can be shown to be incorrect based upon the conclusion, something I did.

"....Which means that God dosn't see what's GOING to happen..."

This would mean that the Christian god is not all knowing, directly contradiciting the bible.

Silver_Dragon17

No, it would mean God doesn't NEED to see the future. . .like you omitted. It doesn't mean He can't, it just means He doesn't need to.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]1 and 2 are the hypothesis which is based upon biblical readings. In a logical proof, the hypothesis is always assumed, but can be shown to be incorrect based upon the conclusion, something I did.

"....Which means that God dosn't see what's GOING to happen..."

This would mean that the Christian god is not all knowing, directly contradiciting the bible.

yoshi-lnex

No, it would mean God doesn't NEED to see the future. . .like you omitted. It doesn't mean He can't, it just means He doesn't need to.

You're not understanding me.

God doesn't need to see the future because He's in the future at the same time as the past. . .making it all the present. If He's in the present, and sees everything happening in the present, then He is all-knowing.

well i read the original post and page 2 as well. i dont have a whole pile of time right now so i couldnt read 3,4and 5. sorry

i will just give you my take. christianity is i supose man made but not solely.the religion chrisianity was not simply invented by god. chrisitanity, and other religions came around because of the influence of god. there is such thing as a christian lifestyle meaning you do everything the bible tells you. but i feel it would be impossible to say what a godly lifestyle is. i do not think people go to hell if they do this or that, there is no point system which says you must have 200 years in purgatory etc. god will not love you less if you do this or that. he wil always forgive you. and that is what the he is all about. loving and caring and forgiving and sacrificing. religons tell you that you mustnt do whatever, eg smoke and drink but it is not that simple. god is like a hand just gently indicating how we should live, but not condemning us if we do it wrong and god doesnt make us do it his way, we are always given a choice.

to quote the matrix: i can only show you the door, you must go through it

i think that he is that little voice in our heads saying that we know what were doing isn't right and that we shouldnt do it. not telling us. we can choose to ignore it but it will leave us feeling empty.

i completely see where atheists are coming from when they say that god is our subconsience inventing an imaginary friend to comfort us. im still not 100% convinced.

i agree with silver dragon on the whole. especially when he said that society cant function without sacrifice. of course we cant. thats why religion is necessary. a sort of a code. which i personally think in some religions is too strict, we areonly human and we make mistakes. if anyone thinks we can function without sacrifice , here you go:

if two designers are trying to design a house. one of them thinks the house should be black and the other one , white. if they dont compromisethen they will argue. they must sacrifice some of their idea and find a middle ground otherwise it wont get done. no one gains anything.

sorry this isnt very well put together, i am not very good at putting my point into words. cheers!

[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]1 and 2 are the hypothesis which is based upon biblical readings. In a logical proof, the hypothesis is always assumed, but can be shown to be incorrect based upon the conclusion, something I did.

"....Which means that God dosn't see what's GOING to happen..."

This would mean that the Christian god is not all knowing, directly contradiciting the bible.

Silver_Dragon17

No, it would mean God doesn't NEED to see the future. . .like you omitted. It doesn't mean He can't, it just means He doesn't need to.

You're not understanding me.

God doesn't need to see the future because He's in the future at the same time as the past. . .making it all the present. If He's in the present, and sees everything happening in the present, then He is all-knowing.

check and mate

Judaism was originally created by man as a way of explaining things the science of that time was too primative to have understood. Then someone (possibly Jesus himself) decided to try to convince people he was the son of the made up god. That belief got more and more popular after he died as a result of the gospels of the various apostles and eventually created the much diverted various forms ofmodern christianity(catholocism, prodistant, etc) you see today. I realize I left a lot of stuff out, but I have to go to class now and I at least wanted to express my point even if that was just saying my view in a nutshell.