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blue_elephant

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#51 blue_elephant
Member since 2003 • 2954 Posts
[QUOTE="blue_elephant"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"]

Yeah, Something along those lines.  I really need to brush up my old testament readings.  If anything, it just leads me into seeing how influential and important these prophets were.  I also remember reading up on John the baptist and his story. lol good times. 

Ineedtofindyou

If you recall jesus says: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another"

And you assume I hate and am disgusted?  I'm simply having an intelligent discussion with you guys.  I love muslims and atheists and agnostics.  Don't assume that I don't, even if that's what you're interpreting from my words.

They just seemed rather hatefull. I fixed the list of miracles so it's less jumbled so you can read them if you want. Secondly, what about my comment on jesus growing in wisdom?
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soulsofblayck

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#52 soulsofblayck
Member since 2006 • 1591 Posts

[QUOTE="thotoz"]There are radical Muslims, and there were radical Christians (time of Crusades). There's always radicals for any religions. You can't base the religion off of those individuals who are a minority.Ineedtofindyou

True.  Couldn't agree more.

There are more supporters of radical Islam than of radical Christianity. When you have multiple countries which make up millions who support barbaric ideologies and rules, that's not just a small minority.
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Ineedtofindyou

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#53 Ineedtofindyou
Member since 2007 • 529 Posts

Just read the Noah/Adam&Eve. I don't know what to think of the Vessel Noah created. I don't know if I should believe in it. And Adam&Eve being the first man and woman on earth? What the hell are the Neantherdal fossils then?thotoz

I'm not going into the ship, but about the neanderthal fossils, well, is there is no proof of transitional fossils in the fossil rcord, at least for the primate subcategory.

I mean, evolutionists have disporven missing links like the Nebraska man, piltdown man and even Lucy.  Have you seen the fossils scientists try to pass off? You'll find a real hip bone or jaw, but the rest of the fossil is simply "fill-in", which leaves much to be desired.

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Ineedtofindyou

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#54 Ineedtofindyou
Member since 2007 • 529 Posts
[QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="blue_elephant"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"]

Yeah, Something along those lines.  I really need to brush up my old testament readings.  If anything, it just leads me into seeing how influential and important these prophets were.  I also remember reading up on John the baptist and his story. lol good times. 

blue_elephant

If you recall jesus says: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another"

And you assume I hate and am disgusted?  I'm simply having an intelligent discussion with you guys.  I love muslims and atheists and agnostics.  Don't assume that I don't, even if that's what you're interpreting from my words.

They just seemed rather hatefull. I fixed the list of miracles so it's less jumbled so you can read them if you want. Secondly, what about my comment on jesus growing in wisdom?

There is a lot of approaches toward your question...and I don't think the interpretation is that Jesu was flawed nor lacking in knowledge, but grew in spirit and grace because of his Father.  God did belittle himself to a human, but even then Christ wepped openly to the Father and subjected himself to his will.  He had a relationship to His Father and therefore the interpretation is that he recieved blessings from God, despite being a part of him.  can yous ee where I'm going with this?

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blue_elephant

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#55 blue_elephant
Member since 2003 • 2954 Posts
[QUOTE="blue_elephant"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="blue_elephant"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"]

Yeah, Something along those lines.  I really need to brush up my old testament readings.  If anything, it just leads me into seeing how influential and important these prophets were.  I also remember reading up on John the baptist and his story. lol good times. 

Ineedtofindyou

If you recall jesus says: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another"

And you assume I hate and am disgusted?  I'm simply having an intelligent discussion with you guys.  I love muslims and atheists and agnostics.  Don't assume that I don't, even if that's what you're interpreting from my words.

They just seemed rather hatefull. I fixed the list of miracles so it's less jumbled so you can read them if you want. Secondly, what about my comment on jesus growing in wisdom?

There is a lot of approaches toward your question...and I don't think the interpretation is that Jesu was flawed nor lacking in knowledge, but grew in spirit and grace because of his Father.  God did belittle himself to a human, but even then Christ wepped openly to the Father and subjected himself to his will.  He had a relationship to His Father and therefore the interpretation is that he recieved blessings from God, despite being a part of him.  can yous ee where I'm going with this?

Yes. Still then, at one point, Christ wasn't perfect. That opens up room for all humans to recieve such a blessing from god doesn't it?
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Ineedtofindyou

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#56 Ineedtofindyou
Member since 2007 • 529 Posts
[QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="blue_elephant"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="blue_elephant"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"]

Yeah, Something along those lines.  I really need to brush up my old testament readings.  If anything, it just leads me into seeing how influential and important these prophets were.  I also remember reading up on John the baptist and his story. lol good times. 

blue_elephant

If you recall jesus says: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another"

And you assume I hate and am disgusted?  I'm simply having an intelligent discussion with you guys.  I love muslims and atheists and agnostics.  Don't assume that I don't, even if that's what you're interpreting from my words.

They just seemed rather hatefull. I fixed the list of miracles so it's less jumbled so you can read them if you want. Secondly, what about my comment on jesus growing in wisdom?

There is a lot of approaches toward your question...and I don't think the interpretation is that Jesu was flawed nor lacking in knowledge, but grew in spirit and grace because of his Father.  God did belittle himself to a human, but even then Christ wepped openly to the Father and subjected himself to his will.  He had a relationship to His Father and therefore the interpretation is that he recieved blessings from God, despite being a part of him.  can yous ee where I'm going with this?

Yes. Still then, at one point, Christ wasn't perfect. That opens up room for all humans to recieve such a blessing from god doesn't it?

Perfection being the attainment of absolute knowledge or never sinning?  I think Christ did know just as much as God, but in this case, gaining wisdom upon what his Father wanted him to do and to accomplish.  I think that's exactly what we're to get from that.

And we are recieving blessings from God, in both widsom and answers.  I myself always seek questions and recieve them as I stufy and research.  I always question my faith and I don't want to fit the "lifeless sheep" impression most people in society accept.

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blue_elephant

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#57 blue_elephant
Member since 2003 • 2954 Posts
[QUOTE="blue_elephant"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="blue_elephant"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="blue_elephant"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"]

Yeah, Something along those lines.  I really need to brush up my old testament readings.  If anything, it just leads me into seeing how influential and important these prophets were.  I also remember reading up on John the baptist and his story. lol good times. 

Ineedtofindyou

If you recall jesus says: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another"

And you assume I hate and am disgusted?  I'm simply having an intelligent discussion with you guys.  I love muslims and atheists and agnostics.  Don't assume that I don't, even if that's what you're interpreting from my words.

They just seemed rather hatefull. I fixed the list of miracles so it's less jumbled so you can read them if you want. Secondly, what about my comment on jesus growing in wisdom?

There is a lot of approaches toward your question...and I don't think the interpretation is that Jesu was flawed nor lacking in knowledge, but grew in spirit and grace because of his Father.  God did belittle himself to a human, but even then Christ wepped openly to the Father and subjected himself to his will.  He had a relationship to His Father and therefore the interpretation is that he recieved blessings from God, despite being a part of him.  can yous ee where I'm going with this?

Yes. Still then, at one point, Christ wasn't perfect. That opens up room for all humans to recieve such a blessing from god doesn't it?

Perfection being the attainment of absolute knowledge or never sinning?  I think Christ did know just as much as God, but in this case, gaining wisdom upon what his Father wanted him to do and to accomplish.  I think that's exactly what we're to get from that.

And we are recieving blessings from God, in both widsom and answers.  I myself always seek questions and recieve them as I stufy and research.  I always question my faith and I don't want to fit the "lifeless sheep" impression most people in society accept.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I have another one for you though. I'm sure you've heard this so I'm not going to bother to find the verse...unless you need me to. Do you recall when jesus speaks with his disciples and says "ye are gods." If they are gods and "god alone is good" wouldn't they all be good and therefore not sinners? I recall you saying that jesus was the only non-sinner or something like that. As far as jesus gaining knowledge of god's will...that's exactly what the title of the Quaran is supposed to mean. Sumission to god's will.
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thotoz

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#58 thotoz
Member since 2006 • 941 Posts
Well when I get older (I am 16) I would like to spend some time researching various religions. But would Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and the other Prophets such as Mohammed were Messengers of God, but Jesus Christ was His Son making him Inferior? That would be a believable, acceptable and good opinion. It's just that when I hear Christians saying the Islamic Allah is not "the God" but a "fake God"...is when I roll my eyes.

I honestly would like getting a Tattoo on my back of the Cross representing Jesus Christ, an Islamic sign perhaps and of course a sign of Sikhism, since I was born into a Sikh family. My house of course has Sikh Guru photos, also Islamic ones and we may get a picture of Jesus Christ in as well. The Temple I go to (Sikh Temple/Islamic) also has a Picture of Jesus Christ. Basicly I am open to the various religions. I just do not like it when people say a certain religion is Islamic and want to convert others to their religion, because only their God is the True One. Anyways..
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Siddiqui

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#59 Siddiqui
Member since 2002 • 544 Posts

You’ve either been deceived or are trying to deceive us. I'm hoping for the best.

Islam has come to mean 'submission'. The goal of Islam is to bring the whole world into submission to Allah. The Quran (Sura's 2, 4, 5, 9 and 47) teaches that all 'infidels' (non-Muslims) must either convert to Islam or be killed or enslaved. The God of the Bible tells us that conversion is the work of God, therefore no-one can be forced to convert to Christianity.Ineedtofindyou

Islam does not just mean submission. It also means peace. It means obtaining peace through submission to God [not some Muslim], specifically by ending the conflict that is the denial of God. The goal is for _you_ to practice submission not to make others submit. Muslims believe "there is no compulsion is religion" [2:256 Qur’an - a.k.a. Koran.] The verses you are citing are taken grossly out of context and misinterpreted by two main groups of people: non-Muslims attacking Islam and extremist Muslims looking to kill others. When these verses refer to the Kafir [someone who 'denies' God - does not even necessarily include Jews, Christians] they refer specifically to the people who persecuted and tortured the Muslims for the years before God allowed them to stand up for themselves through physical fighting. Also, nowhere in the Quran are we ordered to "convert" people. We are told to "warn" them of the hellfire.

Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 years old and had sex with her.  Read the Hadith, chapter 7:62-64.  He's a pedophile and that's a sin.  He's a sinner and he is not "good".Ineedtofindyou

First of all there is some dispute about the age of Aisha (may God be pleased with her) when she was Engaged to the prophet (peace be upon him.) The Hadith [narration] you quoted is one of the few hadith under the classification of 'Sahih' level of authentification (the highest level) that has been called into question (imagine if Christians today actually recorded and questioned the authenticity of chapters of the bible... unlikely.) This is because there is conflict with the age reported and the reported age at which she died and the date at which she died. Long story short (whole story here - read all but especially the part titled "Later Research") it's very possible - no, probable - she was 16 and not 6 when she was engaged to the prophet despite the otherwise high level of authenticity of the hadith you quoted (the narration may have been a slip of the tongue or something and imam Bukhari did not have the incredibly vast resources his more modern counterparts have to catch that.) Also, the marriage was consummated ("had sex") not at engagement but at marriage - three years later when she was either 9 or 19 (again, not six.)

Second, if Muhammad [peace be upon him] was a perverted pedophile why didn't he make his move earlier? He married Aisha in old age. It was very culturally acceptable for Arabs of the time to marry 12, 13 year old girls. However, Muhammad [peace be upon him] waited until he was 25 to marry his first Wife, Khadija [may God be pleased with her], who was a 40 year old widow - hardly a child. Furthermore, prior to those 25 years Muhammad had remained completely chaste [no courting, nothing] despite the fact the lewd and practically semi-nudist Arab culture at the time would easily allow for several other options. A few years after the death of Khadija he finally married Aisha when he was 52 years old - hardly an age where desire is at peak. Even then he was reluctant as he kept stalling for a while despite receiving prophecies that made it rather clear that God wanted him to marry Aisha.

We see today the critically immense wisdom behind this. If Aisha had not married the prophet the Muslims of today would seriously be in chaos. Aisha is the third most common narrator of Hadith [narrations of stories, quotes etc. of the prophet.] with several thousand narrations total. Because she was able to live long after the prophet died she was able to narrate Hadith for a long time after his death. And the nature of the Hadith were just as incredibly important as she was one of the few people that were that close to the prophet and was able to observe his family life.

Regardless, this accusation is probably not your real concern. Even after I have proven to you that Muhammad [peace be upon him] isn't a lewd pedophile you still have a problem. This is just a front to attack Islam. You will find another random front after I have pulled this down. Your real issue is with the religion and the fact that you may not have YET found proof that this is the real religion or that God really had ordered the marriage so leave the beloved prophet alone.

The definition of good is to be without sin.  Yet Jesus in the Bible never sinned and even said himself that God alone is Good.  Does that mean Jesis is God?

Jesus Christ said I am the way, the truth and the life.  No one comes to the father except through me.

Is Jesus Good?  Then he is God.  Read Mark 10:18 for reference.   Moses, Isaiah and all the other prophets have sinned, except for Jesus Christ. Muhammad is a pedophile and a liar. 

Peace be with you.Ineedtofindyou

Muslim's believe that Jesus the son of Mary [upon him be peace] was a Prophet and a messiah and like all prophets he is without sin. Regardless, how does simply being good make you God? God is so much more than that: God is omniscient, God is omnipotent, God is transcendent. Your personal definition is irrelevant.

Jesus never said "I am God. Worship me." The only reason verses even come close to making it seem as if he would say that is because the Bible as it exists today is not a well authenticated book by any measure.

What's said in the Bible is to be taken with a grain of salt. Unlike the Qur'an, there is no proof that the bible today is the bible revealed to Jesus the messiah. The bible was not written down during his life. The 'Q document' was only compiled well after his death. Furthermore, the oldest copy of the gospel that exist today still date several hundreds [actually, about a thousand] years after the death of the Jesus Christ. Furthermore again, not only does this copy contradict other copies of the bible closest to its time, it also contradicts every bible that exists today. So forget about having it in its original Aramaic language. The NIV is no Q document. We have no idea what proportion of the Bible today is true and what is false. But God does not forsake his creation - never.

This is why we have the Qur'an. The verses of the Qur'an were written down immediately after they were revealed to the Prophet [peace be upon him] by any one of 40 appointed trusted scribes. Between these and the oldest full copies of the Quran there is only one 'link Quran' - the compilation, checking and authentication of which is well documented. The two oldest full copies of the Qur'an date back 14 centuries to less than 20 years after the death of the Prophet. These copies are not only identical to each other but identical to each and every Qur'an that exists today - to the letter. Oh, and yep, they're both in Arabic of course.

    This is a HUGE deal when it comes to things like prophecies. The prophecies in the Bible are compelling and give proof that at least some parts of the book are likely of divine source [as muslims believe - still, we don't know which parts or even which proportion of the book remains of divine source after these eons.] The Qur'an has prophecies as well which prove its divine source, but in this case we know that every single letter of the Qur'an is still exactly what was revealed to the prophet. The whole book is truth. Even the most persistent cynics in denial can't go with the usual "oh, well, these prophecies were made up afterwards and added to the book, yeah" argument because as you know now the authenticity of the Quran is highly verified.

Still I won't dwell on prophecies. When God wants to give a sign to people he gives them one they understand and respect. During Moses' [upon him be peace] time they respected magic; God gave Moses a hand that would glow after being put on his chest and a stick that would turn into a snake when thrown to the ground [oh, it parted the seas... that too.] During Jesus' [upon him be peace] medicine was starting to be big; God made Jesus cure the lepers and raise the dead. During Muhammad's [peace be upon him] time the Arabs respected mastery of poetry and Arabic language; the Qur'an was a most impossibly excellent and uncompromising combination of poetry and rhetorical speech the likes of which they could never have imagined let alone have ever seen or heard. Now, what do people of today respect?

- SCIENCE

Muhammad [peace be upon him] is not with us anymore, but God always will be and he has preserved the Qur'an Muhammad [peace be upon him] taught us. This is the crux and the focal point of my post, please listen. The Quran contains multitudes of references to scientific facts that have only been discovered in the last century. It's amazing that a document proven to be 1400 years old tells of information without making even a subtle mistake or blunder. It was impossible for any man in any position in that century - in that millennia - to know this much let alone an Arab merchant that was so completely unschooled and didn't even know how to read or write. The Big-Bang theory, embryological development, expanding universe, origin of stars and planets - it's all there. What I'm going to mention is just the top of it. Do follow the links I give as they really show how subtle yet detailed and perfect the statements and word choice in the Qur'an is.

"Cosmic 'Smoke'"
http://www.55a.net/eng/dust1.htm
Sura Al-Dhareyat – "Drivers of the Wind", verse 47:
"Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly."
How does a 7th century Arab man know stars and planets are formed by Nebulas?
Sura Al-Anbeyaa (The prophets) -verse 30:
"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we have made everything living. Will they not then believe?"
How does a 7th century Arab man know about the Big Bang and the fact that the earliest known forms of life on the planet were from the ocean?
Sura Al-Dhareyat verse 47:
"We have built the heaven with might, and We will continue to expand it."
How does a 7th century Arab man know about the expanding universe theory?

Embryology
http://www.55a.net/eng/2b1.htm
(The Qur'an, 96:1-3)
"Recite: In the name of your Lord Who created man from 'Alaq'"
The human embryo clings to the wall of the uterus, is leach like since it derives all its nutrients from its mother and is like congealed blood in that it has some blood but that blood is stagnant.
'Alaq is an Arabic word that means "a thing that that clings to some place." The word is also used to refer to leeches. It also means a clot or congealed blood. A word with three meanings fulfills all its meanings about one of the earliest stages in human development in a 1400 year old document.

Referring to Mointains as pegs.
http://www.55a.net/eng/25.htm

" Have we not made the earth as a wide expanse, and the mountains as pegs?" (Quran 78: 6-7)
A peg has the majority of its mass under a surface and stabilizes something. It was only finally theorized in 1865 that the vast majority of a mountain's mass was actually underground. So how do mountains stabilize anything?
"He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you." (Quran 3: 10)
It's now known starting in the 60s that mountains play a role in halting plate tectonic movements. How could anyone back then have gone about figuring about plate tectonics, much less how they are stopped?

Let me tell you what the Arabs believed at the time. They believed the sky was a giant frikkin' DOME. Yeah, why not. They thought there were stars because there were holes in the dome and there was a big fire outside where light came from. The sky was supposedly blue cus there was a big ocean outside [rain would happen when there was a leak.] So they lived under this wicked underwater revolving dome with this crazy fire on top of it all. We don't know what it was like back then. Did they actually believe that stuff? Maybe - maybe not - but that was really the best they could come up with. How could a common unlettered unschooled Arab merchant suddenly figure it all out? I don't need to spell it out for you that it must have instead been from a divine being.

I really recommend visiting this site: http://www.55a.net/eng/index.htm because I haven't mentioned A LOT of stuff. The site goes into more science stuff [both on stuff I mentioned and stuff I didn't], some mathematical stuff and some prophecies. But even that site doesn't have it all because there's stuff on calculating the speed of light with the Quran, stages of the Big Bang, a whole bunch of stuff I haven’t mentioned and probably a whole bunch of stuff I haven't even seen yet.

Have I gotten into signs in the Hadith? Like the one where women will start wearing clothes as a second skin [skin tight clothing you see girls wearing today] and make their hair like the humps of a camel [curling their hair.] Or how about the one where the prophet says that one of signs of coming of the Day of Judgment is that everybody will be walking around in the streets with musical instruments on their head dancing to the music all the while. This was the oddest thing to the Arab: how is everybody going to afford multiple instruments, how are they going to carry it on the heads, how are they going dance with this stuff on their head, why would they do this embarrassing thing in the streets, and wouldn't it get to loud to appreciate the music with everyone doing it? Nope. iPod. [not so crazy anymore eh?]

I could go on and on but this post is long, I'm kinda tired, I have stuff to do and there are literally hundreds upon hundreds of signs. I made this post not to demoralize anyone but because: 1. I don't like falsehood and 2. Like many, I don't hate people enough to want them become evil or anything and go to the hellfire. So take this as a warning. Islam is very real. Hell is very real. Heaven is very real. Take time to study Islam, there are a lot of misconceptions.

La ilaha ilallah muhammadur rasulallah
"There is no deity but God and Muhammad is his messenger."

If I've written anything right it's from God so praise Him. If I've written anything wrong it's from me so please forgive me.

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Hewkii

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#60 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts
[QUOTE="thotoz"]Just read the Noah/Adam&Eve. I don't know what to think of the Vessel Noah created. I don't know if I should believe in it. And Adam&Eve being the first man and woman on earth? What the hell are the Neantherdal fossils then?

the better question is, how did humanity spread from Adam and Eve if they had two sons?
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zsc4

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#61 zsc4
Member since 2005 • 5233 Posts
Listen to Siddiqui and maybe that answer your questions. And if you don't hate Muslims, then why strongly bash their religion.
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SkinBlues

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#62 SkinBlues
Member since 2006 • 174 Posts
Believing in fairytales might be cute when your 8 years old,
but at some point you gotta grow up and face the truth.