Couple sues Walmart for getting their kids taken away

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GreySeal9

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#1 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

Another messy situation:

In 2008, Lisa and Anthony "A.J." Demaree took their three young daughters on a trip to San Diego. They returned home to Arizona and brought photos of their then 5, 4 and 1 1/2 year old daughters to a local Walmart in Peoria to be developed.

That should have been that, except instead of receiving 144 happy familial memories, Walmart employees reported the Demarees to the Peoria Police Department on the suspicion that they had taken pornographic images of their children. The police, in turn, called in the Arizona Child Protective Services Agency, and the couple lost custody of their daughters for over a month.

They were shocked. "Some of the photos are bathtime photos," Lisa Demaree told ABC News at the time, "but there are a few after the bath. Three of the girls are naked, lying on a towel with their arms around each other, and we thought it was so cute."

A Maricopa County Superior Court judge ruled that the photographs were not, in fact, pornographic, and a medical exam revealed no signs of sexual abuse. The girls were returned to their parents.

But the damage had been done: The couple's named went on a central registry of sex offenders, and "We've missed a year of our children's lives as far as memories go," Demaree told ABC News.

In 2009, the couple sued the city of Peoria and the State Attorney General's office for defamation. They also sued Walmart for failing to tell them that they had an "unsuitable print policy" and could turn over photos to law enforcement without the customer's knowledge.

A federal judge in Phoenix sided with Walmart, ruling that employees in Arizona cannot be held liable for reporting suspected child pornography. The Demarees appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, and on March 6 the court held a hearing before three judges.

"The photos involved were simple childhood nudity," the family's lawyer, Richard Treon, told ABC News. He argued that Walmart committed fraud on its customers by not disclosing that employees would look at their photographs. Nor did customers know that employees could take photos they found offensive to their boss, who could then call the police.

"In order to convict a person of a crime of sexual exploitation of a child, you have to show that the intent of the photographer was to sexually stimulate the viewer. All the experts agree that even police officers don't have the authority to make that decision," said Treon. "So, we argued that Walmart was negligent in setting up this program with untrained clerks and giving them tremendous power over the lives of their customers."

Walmart did not respond to an interview request from ABC News. But, according to Courthouse News the company's lawyer, Lawrence Kasten, argued that under Arizona statute employees who report child abuse without malice are immune from prosecution. He added that there was no indication of malice in this case.

"I fear that what may happen after this case is [that the] employee will sit there and say, boy, if I turn these over my employer is going to spend millions of dollars in legal fees, and I'm going to get hauled in front of a deposition for eight hours, [so] maybe I'll just stick them back in the envelope and not worry about them," he said. "Immunity is supposed to prevent exactly that from happening."

It's unknown when the appeals court will rule on the case against the city and Walmart.article

Link.

I feel bad for this couple since they were clearly not trying to make child porn and I think it's outrageous that their names are now on a sex offender registry, but I don't think they are going to win their lawsuit.

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leviathan91

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#2 leviathan91
Member since 2007 • 7763 Posts

So much stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Also, how can someone land on the registry if they're not convicted yet? There's a huge difference between a charge and a conviction.  Everyone in this article except for the family is stupid. Just stupid.

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needled24-7

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#3 needled24-7
Member since 2007 • 15902 Posts

that's ridiculous. they should definitely get some kind of compensation

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GreySeal9

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#4 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

that's ridiculous. they should definitely get some kind of compensation

needled24-7

Yeah, Walmart should do the right thing and compensate the couple.

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MrPraline

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#5 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
Very f*cked up indeed. Sad :{
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chessmaster1989

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#6 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts
Honestly it sounds like the people who reported this are morons. Also not sure how the parents could end up on the sex offender registry if they weren't even convicted. I don't really think that they'll win this case though.
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Nibroc420

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#7 Nibroc420
Member since 2007 • 13571 Posts

So much stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Also, how can someone land on the registry if they're not convicted yet? There's a huge difference between a charge and a conviction.  Everyone in this article except for the family is stupid. Just stupid.

leviathan91
Yeah **** that Judge who agreed it was a stupid case and threw it out of court. She's so stupid.
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MakeMeaSammitch

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#8 MakeMeaSammitch
Member since 2012 • 4889 Posts

Yeah. I try to avoid shopping at walmart if I can.

I suggest everybod do that.

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DJ-Lafleur

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#9 DJ-Lafleur
Member since 2007 • 35604 Posts

Jesus this is a whole lot of stupidity.

And if a judge agreed that the parents weren't making child pornography, then why are they still on a sex offender registry? :?

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Nibroc420

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#10 Nibroc420
Member since 2007 • 13571 Posts

Jesus this is a whole lot of stupidity.

And if a judge agreed that the parents weren't making child pornography, then why are they still on a sex offender registry? :?

DJ-Lafleur
They were charged with sexual acts.
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Dogswithguns

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#11 Dogswithguns
Member since 2007 • 11359 Posts

Yeah. I try to avoid shopping at walmart if I can.

I suggest everybod do that.

MakeMeaSammitch
I couldn't agree more.. I now shopping at Aldi instead.
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MrPraline

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#12 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
[QUOTE="DJ-Lafleur"]

Jesus this is a whole lot of stupidity.

And if a judge agreed that the parents weren't making child pornography, then why are they still on a sex offender registry? :?

Nibroc420
They were charged with sexual acts.

But how can you be, and stay, on a registry without a conviction? That's madness.
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MrPraline

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#13 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
[QUOTE="MakeMeaSammitch"]

Yeah. I try to avoid shopping at walmart if I can.

I suggest everybod do that.

Dogswithguns
I couldn't agree more.. I now shopping at Aldi instead.

Aldi < 3
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TacticalDesire

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#14 TacticalDesire
Member since 2010 • 10713 Posts

Personally I probably wouldn't take pictures of my kids like that, but obviously they didn't do anything wrong.  This is also just another case where the sex offender registry shouldn't be involved at all.

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Fightingfan

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#15 Fightingfan
Member since 2010 • 38011 Posts
Stupid is as stupid does. Want pics like that go digital.
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MrPraline

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#16 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts

Personally I probably wouldn't take pictures of my kids like that, but obviously they didn't do anything wrong.  This is also just another case where the sex offender registry shouldn't be involved at all.

TacticalDesire
yeah, and neither should the evil CPS be
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leviathan91

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#17 leviathan91
Member since 2007 • 7763 Posts

[QUOTE="leviathan91"]

So much stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Also, how can someone land on the registry if they're not convicted yet? There's a huge difference between a charge and a conviction.  Everyone in this article except for the family is stupid. Just stupid.

Nibroc420

Yeah **** that Judge who agreed it was a stupid case and threw it out of court. She's so stupid.

I forgot the judge? :P

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Rich3232

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#18 Rich3232
Member since 2012 • 2628 Posts
Walmart is a scummy company, and I hope they lose this case.
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Fightingfan

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#19 Fightingfan
Member since 2010 • 38011 Posts
This is why America is soo awesome. You can ruin anyone's life by simply claiming they're a child molester.
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Nibroc420

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#20 Nibroc420
Member since 2007 • 13571 Posts
[QUOTE="Fightingfan"]This is why America is soo awesome. You can ruin anyone's life by simply claiming they're a child molester.

Or a terrorist.
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-Fromage-

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#21 -Fromage-
Member since 2009 • 10572 Posts
That's funny.
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MrGeezer

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#22 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
Has it in fact been established that Wal-Mart didn't inform customers about their policy, or did the couple just fail to read the fine print? Anyway, this is standard practice. If you take your photos pretty much ANYWHERE, someone's looking at them and I'm pretty sure they're required by law to report them if they suspect illegal activity is depicted.
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GreySeal9

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#23 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

Has it in fact been established that Wal-Mart didn't inform customers about their policy, or did the couple just fail to read the fine print? Anyway, this is standard practice. If you take your photos pretty much ANYWHERE, someone's looking at them and I'm pretty sure they're required by law to report them if they suspect illegal activity is depicted. MrGeezer

As bad as I feel for this couple, I'm thinking the bolded is what probably happened.

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bigfoot2045

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#24 bigfoot2045
Member since 2012 • 732 Posts

It's Maricopa County, aka Hell, home of the psychotic Sheriff Joe. 

What did you expect, justice? The cops in Maricopa County will beat you to death just for looking at them the wrong way. It doesn't surprise me that a couple got put on the sex offender registry for developing photos of their kids. It's par for the course there. 

Arizona is a scary place. It's like an American version of Nazi Germany. You couldn't pay me to set foot there. 

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EatShanna

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#25 EatShanna
Member since 2008 • 875 Posts

^LOL isn't that the guy who teamed up with former CIA hitman/Navy SEAL\yakuza ass kicking machine Steven Segal, to teach students how to behave under fire or something?

I don't live in the U.S. so I'm not overly familiar with this guy, Maricopa County or Arizona. 

I watched a clip of Seagal discussing it, he was dressed like some wannabe spec ops soldier on a mission. :lol:

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Yusuke420

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#26 Yusuke420
Member since 2012 • 2770 Posts

People still have pictures developed? :lol:

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bigfoot2045

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#27 bigfoot2045
Member since 2012 • 732 Posts

^LOL isn't that the guy who teamed up with former CIA hitman/Navy SEAL\yakuza ass kicking machine Steven Segal, to teach students how to behave under fire or something?

I don't live in the U.S. so I'm not overly familiar with this guy, Maricopa County or Arizona. 

I watched a clip of Seagal discussing it, he was dressed like some wannabe spec ops soldier on a mission. :lol:

EatShanna

Yes. He's also the guy who has had dozens of "mysterious deaths" in his jails, where people get picked up for something minor and wind up dead at the hands of his brutal deputies. 

I remember watching a video where they beat a mentally handicapped kid to death because he had been "acting funny."

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konvikt_17

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#28 konvikt_17
Member since 2008 • 22378 Posts

Thats fucked up.

damn, to have your name on the sex offender registry for no reason is horrible.

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lamprey263

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#29 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44574 Posts
I think Walmart should have to compensate the couple, accusing someone of child pornography probably one of the most socially stigmatizing claims one could make and they didn't do it responsibly. I also blame the authorities, they should have been able to assess any evidence in the case to make a determination of the nature of the photos as non-pornographic.
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Sword-Demon

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#30 Sword-Demon
Member since 2008 • 7007 Posts

Cameras with film still exist?

but that's ****ed up. You can't even take a picture of your own child anymore without being labled a sex offender and having them taken away.

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Rattlesnake_8

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#31 Rattlesnake_8
Member since 2004 • 18452 Posts
wow, just goes to show why it's better to use a digital camera and print stuff off yourself. Stupid they are on a sex offenders list for doing nothing wrong.
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Jagged3dge

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#32 Jagged3dge
Member since 2008 • 3895 Posts

wow, just goes to show why it's better to use a digital camera and print stuff off yourself. Stupid they are on a sex offenders list for doing nothing wrong.Rattlesnake_8

Yup. And Corporate America wins again.

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Chutebox

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#33 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 50568 Posts

Cameras with film still exist?

 

Sword-Demon

Yes but that's not the only way.  We use digital camera and send the pics via internet to our local costco who in turns prints the pictures.

And it sucks, but if you do have pictures printed people are looking at them.  If they think something like this is actually happening, they are supposed to report it.  But it shouldn't have gone farther than that.  I don't think WalMart is to be blamed at all.

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mmwmwmmwmwmm

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#34 mmwmwmmwmwmm
Member since 2008 • 620 Posts
A great example of how the US sex/pornography laws are stupid.
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MrGeezer

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#35 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

Yes but that's not the only way.  We use digital camera and send the pics via internet to our local costco who in turns prints the pictures.

And it sucks, but if you do have pictures printed people are looking at them.  If they think something like this is actually happening, they are supposed to report it.  But it shouldn't have gone farther than that.  I don't think WalMart is to be blamed at all.

Chutebox
Yep. What happened to this couple is a shame, but Wal-Mart isn't to blame. If Wal-Mart has ANY blame in this, it's solely a failure to make their policy known, but even that's a big "if". Like I said, this is standard policy ANYWHERE you get pictures printed. And I doubt that Wal-Mart, who can afford to hire teams of lawyers to make sure their asses are covered, just forgot to have this stated in the fine print on the forms. I'm betting that Wal-Mart DID state the policy, and that the couple just forgot to read the fine print. But let's be clear...even if Wal-Mart didn't in any way state their policy, making it known probably wouldn't have mattered. Does the couple going to develop their family pictures say, "well, these pictures show our young children naked, so people will probably think it's porn"? No. The innocent intentions that were involved in taking the pictures in the first place are the same innocent intentions that will totally disregard the chances of anyone thinking that those pictures are pornographic. But regardless, Wal-Mart didn't really do anything wrong. It's a shame that this went so far, but all Wal-Mart did was report suspicious pictures to the authorities. And that is exactly what they are SUPPOSED to do. Any harm that the family faced from that point on had nothing to do with Wal-Mart. That's the fault of the authorities, who should have known better. One more comment: it's easy to claim that it was stupid to report the images in the first place. But...it's hard to do that without seeing the images in question. If you want to see just how ambiguous "child pornography" can be, just look at Sally Mann and Jock Sturges. Look through some of their work, keeping in mind that these photographers have commonly been hit with the claim of "child pornographers", and that puts things into perspective. It's easy to criticize how far the child pornography case against this couple got, but we haven't seen the images have we? For all I know, the pictures actually very well may have been suspicious as hell.
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Nibroc420

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#36 Nibroc420
Member since 2007 • 13571 Posts

If you want to see just how ambiguous "child pornography" can be, just look at Sally Mann and Jock Sturges. Look through some of their work, keeping in mind that these photographers have commonly been hit with the claim of "child pornographers", and that puts things into perspective.MrGeezer

Of course Mr.Geezer would know what to google :|

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LostProphetFLCL

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#37 LostProphetFLCL
Member since 2006 • 18526 Posts

Crappy situation all around. Never understood why people took naked pictures of their kids though....

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LJS9502_basic

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#38 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178848 Posts
I don't think they have a case against Wal-Mart.
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LJS9502_basic

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#39 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178848 Posts

So much stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Also, how can someone land on the registry if they're not convicted yet? There's a huge difference between a charge and a conviction.  Everyone in this article except for the family is stupid. Just stupid.

leviathan91
Nope. The family is stupid for taking naked pictures of their kids.
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mrbojangles25

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#40 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58340 Posts

jesus, I mean, good for Walmart for erring on the side of caution, but still...pretty damn rediculous.  I Wish we did not have to live in the world where we need to assume the worst in people.

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iHarlequin

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#41 iHarlequin
Member since 2011 • 1928 Posts

[QUOTE="leviathan91"]

So much stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Also, how can someone land on the registry if they're not convicted yet? There's a huge difference between a charge and a conviction.  Everyone in this article except for the family is stupid. Just stupid.

LJS9502_basic

Nope. The family is stupid for taking naked pictures of their kids.

 

Why?

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jun_aka_pekto

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#42 jun_aka_pekto
Member since 2010 • 25255 Posts

Arizona is a scary place. It's like an American version of Nazi Germany. You couldn't pay me to set foot there. bigfoot2045

I spent 4 years in Arizona (Tucson in Pima County). It's not even close. I had fun there. My family loves it there and would like to go back there....we may someday since we still own a house there.

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DeadMan1290

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#43 DeadMan1290
Member since 2005 • 15752 Posts

So much stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Also, how can someone land on the registry if they're not convicted yet? There's a huge difference between a charge and a conviction.  Everyone in this article except for the family is stupid. Just stupid.

leviathan91
Agree.
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Yusuke420

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#44 Yusuke420
Member since 2012 • 2770 Posts

Yep in today's society, you just can't take naked pictures of children, even if they are your own. Just avoid being around naked children and your life will be much easier lol. 

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LazySloth718

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#45 LazySloth718
Member since 2011 • 2345 Posts

Someone brings you photos to develop that have young children nude, would it be suitable to report that to the police?

I think it would.

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Yusuke420

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#46 Yusuke420
Member since 2012 • 2770 Posts

Someone brings you photos to develop that have young children nude, would it be suitable to report that to the police?

I think it would.

LazySloth718

  I used to work for CVS, so I developed photo's on a regular basis. I never came across any child nudes, but plenty of nude adults and the standing policy was to give the pictures to the people if they weren't sexually explict. So yeah if I saw some pictures of children in the bath or after a bath, my first reaction wouldn't be the report them. You have to have some common sense in society, people aren't drones that mindlessly have to follow the will of the nameless and faceless corporations. You have to be able to make certain choices on your own and clearly this walmart employee made a poor one (not surprising they work for wal-mart). 

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ShadowsDemon

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#47 ShadowsDemon
Member since 2012 • 10059 Posts
That's so messed up...
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MrPraline

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#48 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
[QUOTE="Chutebox"]

Yes but that's not the only way.  We use digital camera and send the pics via internet to our local costco who in turns prints the pictures.

And it sucks, but if you do have pictures printed people are looking at them.  If they think something like this is actually happening, they are supposed to report it.  But it shouldn't have gone farther than that.  I don't think WalMart is to be blamed at all.

MrGeezer
Yep. What happened to this couple is a shame, but Wal-Mart isn't to blame. If Wal-Mart has ANY blame in this, it's solely a failure to make their policy known, but even that's a big "if". Like I said, this is standard policy ANYWHERE you get pictures printed. And I doubt that Wal-Mart, who can afford to hire teams of lawyers to make sure their asses are covered, just forgot to have this stated in the fine print on the forms. I'm betting that Wal-Mart DID state the policy, and that the couple just forgot to read the fine print. But let's be clear...even if Wal-Mart didn't in any way state their policy, making it known probably wouldn't have mattered. Does the couple going to develop their family pictures say, "well, these pictures show our young children naked, so people will probably think it's porn"? No. The innocent intentions that were involved in taking the pictures in the first place are the same innocent intentions that will totally disregard the chances of anyone thinking that those pictures are pornographic. But regardless, Wal-Mart didn't really do anything wrong. It's a shame that this went so far, but all Wal-Mart did was report suspicious pictures to the authorities. And that is exactly what they are SUPPOSED to do. Any harm that the family faced from that point on had nothing to do with Wal-Mart. That's the fault of the authorities, who should have known better. One more comment: it's easy to claim that it was stupid to report the images in the first place. But...it's hard to do that without seeing the images in question. If you want to see just how ambiguous "child pornography" can be, just look at Sally Mann and Jock Sturges. Look through some of their work, keeping in mind that these photographers have commonly been hit with the claim of "child pornographers", and that puts things into perspective. It's easy to criticize how far the child pornography case against this couple got, but we haven't seen the images have we? For all I know, the pictures actually very well may have been suspicious as hell.

The people who reported this to the authorities are responsible for everything the couple has gone through. Intentions are one thing, but the road to hell et cetera. They set all of this in motion, and are responsible for the whole thing.
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Nibroc420

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#49 Nibroc420
Member since 2007 • 13571 Posts
[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="Chutebox"]

Yes but that's not the only way.  We use digital camera and send the pics via internet to our local costco who in turns prints the pictures.

And it sucks, but if you do have pictures printed people are looking at them.  If they think something like this is actually happening, they are supposed to report it.  But it shouldn't have gone farther than that.  I don't think WalMart is to be blamed at all.

MrPraline
Yep. What happened to this couple is a shame, but Wal-Mart isn't to blame. If Wal-Mart has ANY blame in this, it's solely a failure to make their policy known, but even that's a big "if". Like I said, this is standard policy ANYWHERE you get pictures printed. And I doubt that Wal-Mart, who can afford to hire teams of lawyers to make sure their asses are covered, just forgot to have this stated in the fine print on the forms. I'm betting that Wal-Mart DID state the policy, and that the couple just forgot to read the fine print. But let's be clear...even if Wal-Mart didn't in any way state their policy, making it known probably wouldn't have mattered. Does the couple going to develop their family pictures say, "well, these pictures show our young children naked, so people will probably think it's porn"? No. The innocent intentions that were involved in taking the pictures in the first place are the same innocent intentions that will totally disregard the chances of anyone thinking that those pictures are pornographic. But regardless, Wal-Mart didn't really do anything wrong. It's a shame that this went so far, but all Wal-Mart did was report suspicious pictures to the authorities. And that is exactly what they are SUPPOSED to do. Any harm that the family faced from that point on had nothing to do with Wal-Mart. That's the fault of the authorities, who should have known better. One more comment: it's easy to claim that it was stupid to report the images in the first place. But...it's hard to do that without seeing the images in question. If you want to see just how ambiguous "child pornography" can be, just look at Sally Mann and Jock Sturges. Look through some of their work, keeping in mind that these photographers have commonly been hit with the claim of "child pornographers", and that puts things into perspective. It's easy to criticize how far the child pornography case against this couple got, but we haven't seen the images have we? For all I know, the pictures actually very well may have been suspicious as hell.

The people who reported this to the authorities are responsible for everything the couple has gone through. Intentions are one thing, but the road to hell et cetera. They set all of this in motion, and are responsible for the whole thing.

The employees did their job, they followed policy and reported any suspected child porn (3 girls laying naked side by side on a bed?) They called police, and the police should have looked into it a little more before arresting, charging, and finally putting this couple onto a list of sex offenders. If anything the police were a little too hasty. Although if they had taken longer, and it was a situation where child porn was an issue, the police officers would be castrated by the media for not having done their job faster.
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MrGeezer

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#50 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
The people who reported this to the authorities are responsible for everything the couple has gone through. Intentions are one thing, but the road to hell et cetera. They set all of this in motion, and are responsible for the whole thing.MrPraline
Let's be clear...the problem with this situation is that it was reported as suspected child porn and then ended up NOT being child porn. If it indeed WAS child porn and a child pornographer was caught, everyone would be saying, "good job, Wal-Mart". So the key issue here is was it child porn? If the pictures lie within the "grey area" (see...Sally Mann and Jock Sturges), then of course it's worth reporting because it's ambiguous enough to at least be somewhat suspicious. And if the pictures were obviously NOT child porn, then this never should have gone beyond the initial reporting. It should have been a case of "that's not child porn, stop wasting our time you idiot." People are getting all up in arms over Wal-Mart for misidentifying something as child porn when it wasn't, but that's a pretty damn unrealistic standard. Exactly what is child porn and what isn't? Like I said, there's a big grey area. And punishing people for thinking something is porn and being wrong only leads to people not reporting porn. As in, they'll ignore REAL cases of child porn because it's too risky to make a report and be wrong. Can we agree that when employees in the photo department see child pornography, that they should call the cops?