Abortion related ---When does human life begin?

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curono

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#1 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

DISCLAIMER:THIS IS NOT AN ABORTION THREAD. IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS ABOUT WHETHER IT IS ETHICAL, MURDER, LEGAL, ETC, DO IT IN OTHER POST. THIS POST ONLY DEALS WITH THE ISSUE: When does human life begin?Implications and possibilities

People from pro-life organizations and such always talk about the idea "life from the point of conception" and even get to the point of post-day (emergency) pills should be considered murder. I'd like to put into question those ideas. I'd like to discuss also about implications and possible strange things that happens if we interpret that.

First of all I think that it would be wise to separate the idea of human life. human and alive are not necessarily bound. A sperm and an ovule are alive, part of a human but are not considered a human life (when they are separate). We can talk of human yet, not alive (as in the case of death).

Either with sonservatives or liberals there is a common unspoken agreement. There is a point in which both partiesacknowledge about when it is human. Late development is considered a human being by default. The radical problem is at the beginning of gestation. Liberals (pro abortion, or pro-choice, you name it) tend to say that it takes a time to call a "product" a human being. Conservatives (anti abortion, pro-life) say that it starts from the moment male and female reproductive cells unite.

The really big issue comes with "a sperm combined with a cell is a human life (and thus should be protected)". Well, I'd like to mention several instances in which this idea becomes quite strange. Let u say that a couple go to a clinic to inseminate the woman because of some reason. The medic (or laboratorist) takes both male and female cells and combines them to a petri dish. According to the pro-life view, this is considered a complete human being. But let us continue. Imagine that this medic trips and falls. Inevitably the zygote falls and is unable to live. In this case are we talking about a murder(malpractice for sure, but murder)? The intention was to have a new life, and the zygote was complete. Now imagine he had not only one sample that was supposed to fertyilize a woman, but lets say 5 women. He had in a tray5different samples. Does it meanhe just killed unintentionally 5 human beings??

There is also the case of miscarriages. If it is a human being, it is subjected to the law. Are we talking of suicide, murder (maybe unintentional, but murder in the end) or we think as death of natural causes? In any case, the term miscarriage becomes an eufemism of death. Going on with miscarriages, not all of them happen at noticeable stages. Some of them may happen even without the "mother" knowing it. To make it clearer lets imagine a scenario.

A couple has unprotected relations, and the sperm DOES combine with the egg, we are talking according to the conservative paradigm about a human being. At this pointwe can handle different scenarios, all of which are real:
a)The eggfor some reason does not implant and is "washed away"
b) The egg is implanted but the female's period washes away the product in any way
c)
The egg continues the "normal development"to form a baby.

If it is the case of c, we are not in a problematic scenario. However, a and b can become quite a debate. Just by saying that the human being was not allowed to develop, we can argue about a possible murder (negating an implantationis as harsh as drowning someone). So should we talk about murder? If this is the case, any unprotected relation which does not end up in pregnancy could is suspected to be homicide. And such is not the case. So, why do we take for granted this case, and if it is provoked we are talking about murder? Some say it is intention what matters, but then again,what we discuss about is if that was a human life. By saying that "what decides if it is human" is our intention, the ruling factor in what we consider the beggining of human life becomes our intention (which could lead to more problems and even darker discussion). Pregnant women who are killed can be taken as double homicide, but miscarriage is in any way seen as a pity and there is no problem. That is just biasing standars and it shouldnt be. Imagine that a woman does not want an offspring and a natural miscarriage happens: is it then a murder, since intention was fulfilled by chance? And, if a woman alleges to want an offspring, but makes everything (drink, smoke, receive damage, abuse drugs) to cause an abortion, do we set her free? As seen, intention SHOULD not be the deciding factor.

My guess is that a safer way to talk about human life is to make a comparison with building a house. That way we can move a little aside the ideas of choice, religion and "sacredness of life". It is a proposal of talking about what our cognitive systems do recognize as an object before and during the constuction.

Talking about pregnancy and building has similarities. Both require the raw materials, need a place to "house" the project", start with a strange form and at the end it is about maturating (growing or adding details).

If we have a terrain with blocks, cement and stuff we do not have a house. If we dig a hole, we do not have a house. If we construct cimentations, there is still not a house. At the first wall made, there is a wall, not a house. Two walls in anglewith floor can be noticed as a house, but most people will not see that as a house, but rather as a couple of walls. By the third wall, some will say that is a house; incomplete but a house in the end, and some other will say no with many many reasons.By the fourth wall, a house is easily recognizable (even though certain people may disagree) the basic structure of a wall will be recognized. By the moment we have 4 walls and a roof, there is a house, beyond any doubt.

Such is the case of pregnancy. Which can be molded into 3 basic stages: blob, basic structure and maturation.
Within the first stage, we have cells in bloblike forms. The only hint we have about that being human is the DNA and maybe some other thing, but for most of live species, they all start like this. So. How can we defend something as human when it is hardly (if not impossible) to recognize as human?

The second stage is the tricky one. Because at that point we do not have a clear human form. There is something humanoid, and similar to the "build a house" thing, we know from experience that it will most likely be a house, but at the moment it is still not. Some othe say that the basic layout is enough to consider the produc a human, but still, there is a large period which will determine how will the "human be". What I mean, it is still a process in development. We can't still call it a finished work. Question arises again. If it is not still a "finished job" is it still human? I know it comes from human, and it is still alive, and through development, it will most likely become a human. But why can we say that as a human it is phisically incomplete but we say it is human? A very conservative ideology, my best answer.

Human life asI think should be thought at the start of the development stage. Thatis something recognizable as human, and with mosthuman body features inserted.What do you think???

In b4 wall of text,too longand boring....

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#2 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts

Personally, I'd say nobody is qualified to give a cutoff point which marks the beginning of human life, so I'll say it's human from conception - it certainly is genetically human.

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#3 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
Life begins at 30
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super_mario_128

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#4 super_mario_128
Member since 2006 • 23884 Posts
Life begins at conception; sentience doesn't begin for a while after.
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#5 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

Personally, I'd say nobody is qualified to give a cutoff point which marks the beginning of human life, so I'll say it's human from conception - it certainly is genetically human.

jimmyjammer69
Problem becomes human genes vary. How much deviance can you accept as human? Besides, for practical reasons, if that is the case, next day pills are murderous, since they reject a "genetically complete" bein?
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#6 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
Life begins at conception; sentience doesn't begin for a while after. super_mario_128
I'd say some measure of autonomy is necessary to distinguish the personhood of a fetus as opposed to, say, one's liver.
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#7 JoeRatz16
Member since 2008 • 697 Posts

Human life begins at conception, when the conceptus takes on a unique DNA.

As for the idea about in Vitro/artificial insemination many conservatives/pro-lifers/Christians oppose such practices in the first place.

As for the other examples Murder has to be intentional and has to cause the death, thus in the case of a miscarriage accidents happen, in the case of the woman who wants the pregnancy to end and has a natural miscarriage it may be likened to someone who wants someone to die and that person does die in a car accident (Not caused by the person): legally that is not murder, ethically it is wrong to even wish death on someone else.

Finally with the double homicide scenario, that is indeed the law. If you kill a pregnant woman it is double homicide under "laci's law" passed by congress.

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#8 _BlueDuck_
Member since 2003 • 11986 Posts

When it has consciousness/awareness/can feel pain. I think those are essential to what we consider alive, at least for humans. I think all those capabilities aren't developed until around 6 months or so?

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#9 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts
[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]

Personally, I'd say nobody is qualified to give a cutoff point which marks the beginning of human life, so I'll say it's human from conception - it certainly is genetically human.

curono
Problem becomes human genes vary. How much deviance can you accept as human? Besides, for practical reasons, if that is the case, next day pills are murderous, since they reject a "genetically complete" bein?

Could you elaborate on that first point? I'm not sure I follow the genetic deviance thing... maybe some examples would help. Yeah, I know my view forces me to accept some uncomfortable consequences, and I suppose I would be forced to see that as killing, but not as murder. Why not? because murder is unlawful killing and I realise there are some cases where abortion can be the lesser of two evils. My own view is that it shouldn't be available for just any reason, and if a couple have had consensual sex and knowingly failed to take precautions, they should be responsible for the results of their actions.
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#10 JoeRatz16
Member since 2008 • 697 Posts

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]

Personally, I'd say nobody is qualified to give a cutoff point which marks the beginning of human life, so I'll say it's human from conception - it certainly is genetically human.

curono

Problem becomes human genes vary. How much deviance can you accept as human? Besides, for practical reasons, if that is the case, next day pills are murderous, since they reject a "genetically complete" bein?

Most people who oppose abortion do consider such pills to be abortion, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has said that pills which prevent a conceive embryo from implanting, "fall under the sin of abortion".

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#11 super_mario_128
Member since 2006 • 23884 Posts
[QUOTE="super_mario_128"]Life begins at conception; sentience doesn't begin for a while after. xaos
I'd say some measure of autonomy is necessary to distinguish the personhood of a fetus as opposed to, say, one's liver.

After googling the words I didn't understand, I still cannot conceive that sentence. ಠ_ಠ
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#12 JoeRatz16
Member since 2008 • 697 Posts

When it has consciousness/awareness/can feel pain. I think those are essential to what we consider alive, at least for humans. I think all those capabilities aren't developed until around 6 months or so?

_BlueDuck_

I think a fetus can feel pain at around 20 weeks.

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#13 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts
[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]

Personally, I'd say nobody is qualified to give a cutoff point which marks the beginning of human life, so I'll say it's human from conception - it certainly is genetically human.

Problem becomes human genes vary. How much deviance can you accept as human? Besides, for practical reasons, if that is the case, next day pills are murderous, since they reject a "genetically complete" bein?

Could you elaborate on that first point? I'm not sure I follow the genetic deviance thing... maybe some examples would help. Yeah, I know my view forces me to accept some uncomfortable consequences, and I suppose I would be forced to see that as killing, but not as murder. Why not? because murder is unlawful killing and I realise there are some cases where abortion can be the lesser of two evils. My own view is that it shouldn't be available for just any reason, and if a couple have had consensual sex and knowingly failed to take precautions, they should be responsible for the results of their actions.

Read the first post... I would mostly repeat what is above.
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#14 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts
[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="curono"] Problem becomes human genes vary. How much deviance can you accept as human? Besides, for practical reasons, if that is the case, next day pills are murderous, since they reject a "genetically complete" bein?curono
Could you elaborate on that first point? I'm not sure I follow the genetic deviance thing... maybe some examples would help. Yeah, I know my view forces me to accept some uncomfortable consequences, and I suppose I would be forced to see that as killing, but not as murder. Why not? because murder is unlawful killing and I realise there are some cases where abortion can be the lesser of two evils. My own view is that it shouldn't be available for just any reason, and if a couple have had consensual sex and knowingly failed to take precautions, they should be responsible for the results of their actions.

Read the first post... I would mostly repeat what is above.

First post's too darned looooong :P
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#15 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts
Life begins at conception; sentience doesn't begin for a while after. super_mario_128
Maybe, but your point would be "if it is alive it is human." And that is pretty questionable.
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#16 super_mario_128
Member since 2006 • 23884 Posts
[QUOTE="super_mario_128"]Life begins at conception; sentience doesn't begin for a while after. curono
Maybe, but your point would be "if it is alive it is human." And that is pretty questionable.

Hm, I didn't intend for that interpretation. To me, sentience is the most important factor. I don't value a few million cells over a newly born child.
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#18 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]

Personally, I'd say nobody is qualified to give a cutoff point which marks the beginning of human life, so I'll say it's human from conception - it certainly is genetically human.

JoeRatz16

Problem becomes human genes vary. How much deviance can you accept as human? Besides, for practical reasons, if that is the case, next day pills are murderous, since they reject a "genetically complete" bein?

Most people who oppose abortion do consider such pills to be abortion, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has said that pills which prevent a conceive embryo from implanting, "fall under the sin of abortion".

So religious doctrines should rule our legal system and advancements. Think of this: 20 years ago (maybe less )the church condemned the use of condoms as a MURDER. Now we know that it cant be since there isnt the formation of a human being.

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#19 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts
I'ld say when it is concious of itself.
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#20 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts
[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"] Could you elaborate on that first point? I'm not sure I follow the genetic deviance thing... maybe some examples would help. Yeah, I know my view forces me to accept some uncomfortable consequences, and I suppose I would be forced to see that as killing, but not as murder. Why not? because murder is unlawful killing and I realise there are some cases where abortion can be the lesser of two evils. My own view is that it shouldn't be available for just any reason, and if a couple have had consensual sex and knowingly failed to take precautions, they should be responsible for the results of their actions.jimmyjammer69
Read the first post... I would mostly repeat what is above.

First post's too darned looooong :P

Dont be lazy. I had to write it....
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#21 tofu-lion91
Member since 2008 • 13496 Posts
Technically it's alive at conception but I don't think it's properly alive until after 30 weeks or so, when it looks more like a baby and less like a foetus croissant :)
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#22 _BlueDuck_
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[QUOTE="super_mario_128"]Life begins at conception; sentience doesn't begin for a while after. curono
Maybe, but your point would be "if it is alive it is human." And that is pretty questionable.

Yeah I don't agree with that. Almost every cell in my body has a complete human genetic code, and those cells are very much alive. But that doesn't mean that say, my liver tissue, is human.

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#23 rawsavon
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I am willing to admit that I have no idea (not something that I often do) I have pondered this question many, many times and have never reached a conclusion. -I do not thnk that a clump of cells smaller than an eyelash is a new life BUT at what point that becomes life is beyond my current comprehension...
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#24 jimmyjammer69
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[QUOTE="super_mario_128"]Life begins at conception; sentience doesn't begin for a while after. curono
Maybe, but your point would be "if it is alive it is human." And that is pretty questionable.

Can you prove that some form of awareness doesn't begin at conception? I mean, I'm guessing that you see consciousness as some sort of by-product of our body's working, and something that only appears at a certain level of complexity or development, but why should that be the case? Any biological definition is going to be arbitrary if it resorts to sentience as its condition.
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#25 _BlueDuck_
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[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="super_mario_128"]Life begins at conception; sentience doesn't begin for a while after. jimmyjammer69
Maybe, but your point would be "if it is alive it is human." And that is pretty questionable.

Can you prove that some form of awareness doesn't begin at conception? I mean, I'm guessing that you see consciousness as some sort of by-product of our body's working, and something that only appears at a certain level of complexity or development, but why should that be the case? Any biological definition is going to be arbitrary if it resorts to sentience as its condition.

It should be the case because you need a brain to be conscious.

And if we're talking more about something in terms of a soul, then really whats the point to discussing this, that's either something you beleive in or not.

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#26 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts
Proven
[QUOTE="curono"][QUOTE="super_mario_128"]Life begins at conception; sentience doesn't begin for a while after. jimmyjammer69
Maybe, but your point would be "if it is alive it is human." And that is pretty questionable.

Can you prove that some form of awareness doesn't begin at conception? I mean, I'm guessing that you see consciousness as some sort of by-product of our body's working, and something that only appears at a certain level of complexity or development, but why should that be the case? Any biological definition is going to be arbitrary if it resorts to sentience as its condition.

A morule (stack of cells in blob-like form in the early stages of reproduction) is inside the "conception moment". Morules lack a nervous tissue. There is less space for discussing a brain. Hence, there can be NO awareness if there is no mind, nor brain, nor nerve tissue. There is no specialized tissue.
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#27 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts
Proven[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="curono"] Maybe, but your point would be "if it is alive it is human." And that is pretty questionable.curono
Can you prove that some form of awareness doesn't begin at conception? I mean, I'm guessing that you see consciousness as some sort of by-product of our body's working, and something that only appears at a certain level of complexity or development, but why should that be the case? Any biological definition is going to be arbitrary if it resorts to sentience as its condition.

A morule (stack of cells in blob-like form in the early stages of reproduction) is inside the "conception moment". Morules lack a nervous tissue. There is less space for discussing a brain. Hence, there can be NO awareness if there is no mind, nor brain, nor nerve tissue. There is no specialized tissue.

Heh... I think I'm way out of my depth when it comes to foetal development. I don't know nearly enough about embryonic science to argue this point. I'll maintain, though, that conscousness is more than simply a neurological action until proven otherwise. I'm also going to do a runner on this thread :P
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#28 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts
[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"] Can you prove that some form of awareness doesn't begin at conception?

You don't have a brain to be aware with at conception
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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#29 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

Life begins when liberals say it begins.

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#30 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

Life begins when liberals say it begins.

sonicare
Like I said, 30
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#31 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts
[QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"] Can you prove that some form of awareness doesn't begin at conception?

You don't have a brain to be aware with at conception

Eek, I seem to be wandering into spiritual territory :? . I'm not going to pretend to understand the origin of consciousness, just as current scientific understanding doesn't, and until it is explained clearly and definitely, I don't see how we can safely make any assumptions where the validity of human life is at stake.
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#32 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
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[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="sonicare"]

Life begins when liberals say it begins.

Like I said, 30

No, when you can first register for welfare.
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#33 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="sonicare"]

Life begins when liberals say it begins.

Like I said, 30

No, when you can first register for welfare.

Here I was being light and that's what you come back with? :(
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#34 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts
[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="xaos"] Like I said, 30xaos
No, when you can first register for welfare.

Here I was being light and that's what you come back with? :(

Aah, come on... that was a pretty snappy response :)
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#35 jazznate
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I wrote a paper about this in college for a philosophy class a couple years ago. Basically what I found out is that it's impossible at this point to specifically determine when the fetus is human. The word human not specifically referring to the genetic term of being a human being. If we go the route of saying human genetic code = human we run into problems because you could then say if I chopped my finger off it would meet the criteria to be a human by itself. We need more criteria because in itself the word human is a loaded word. Nobody thinks of a human being as a fetus or sperm, we think of a human as a being capable of feeling emotion and rational thought. A more moralistic definition.

A philosopher I studied, Mary-Ann Warren, suggests the criteria for the moral definition of a human be Consciousness, Reasoning, Self Motivation, Communication, and Self Awareness. However the problem with thisis that a newborn does not meet this criteria. There's also the issue of potential to be human which I dismiss as grounds to deny abortions because you could say a sperm is a potential human and ejaculating would be murder. What would ovulation be? A miscarriage?

My personal stance is that since we have no way to draw a line where human life begins we should side on the rights of the woman to do what she feels is right to her body.

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#36 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts
[QUOTE="jazznate"]

I wrote a paper about this in college for a philosophy class a couple years ago. Basically what I found out is that it's impossible at this point to specifically determine when the fetus is human. The word human not specifically referring to the genetic term of being a human being. If we go the route of saying human genetic code = human we run into problems because you could then say if I chopped my finger off it would meet the criteria to be a human by itself. We need more criteria because in itself the word human is a loaded word. Nobody thinks of a human being as a fetus or sperm, we think of a human as a being capable of feeling emotion and rational thought. A more, moralistic definition.

A philosopher I studied, Mary-Ann Warren, suggests the criteria for the moral definition of a human be Consciousness, Reasoning, Self Motivation, Communication, and Self Awareness. However the problem with thisis that a newborn does not meet this criteria. There's also the issue of potential to be human which I dismiss as grounds to deny abortions because you could say a sperm is a potential human and ejaculating would be murder. What would ovulation be? A miscarriage?

My personal stance is that since we have no way to draw a line where human life begins we should side on the rights of the woman to do what she feels is right to her body.

Not half bad. All things that I have considered as well...hence why I put that I have no idea
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Bourbons3

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#37 Bourbons3
Member since 2003 • 24238 Posts
I'm not cure. But you're not human from the point of conception.
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rawsavon

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#38 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts
I'm not cure. But you're not human from the point of conception.Bourbons3
Tell me about it...all kids are demons. Not sure when they turn into 'humans"... ;)
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#39 Troqe
Member since 2008 • 675 Posts

I believe human life begins from conception because it has the same potential for a full, happy life as a baby 6 months in the womb.

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chessmaster1989

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#40 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts
Life itself (obviously) begins at conception. I do not consider the fetus to be a human being at least until it becomes sentient.
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MrPraline

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#41 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
Life itself (obviously) begins at conception. I do not consider the fetus to be a human being at least until it becomes sentient.chessmaster1989
Agreed.
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MgamerBD

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#42 MgamerBD
Member since 2006 • 17550 Posts
Life begins at birth. When I was born. My birth certificate does not say when I was concepted but when I was born.
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Acemaster27

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#43 Acemaster27
Member since 2004 • 4482 Posts
I honestly don't know. I have been wrestling with this for a long time.
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#44 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts
Life begins at birth. When I was born. My birth certificate does not say when I was concepted but when I was born.MgamerBD
And my birth certificate contains a mistake, while my original one went missing... Does that mean I wasn't alive for a few years, and was then reborn a few days after my original birthdate, several years earlier?
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#45 MgamerBD
Member since 2006 • 17550 Posts
[QUOTE="MgamerBD"]Life begins at birth. When I was born. My birth certificate does not say when I was concepted but when I was born.jimmyjammer69
And my birth certificate contains a mistake, while my original one went missing... Does that mean I wasn't alive for a few years, and was then reborn a few days after my original birthdate, several years earlier?

I'm speaking from the political side right now. Now from a moral stand I think a human life begins when it first can feel pain, or gets a conscious.
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#46 D_Battery
Member since 2009 • 2478 Posts

I can't say I really care when human life begins. I find it about as easy to sympathize with a first trimester fetus as with a snail; I wouldn't kill a snail for no reason, but I wouldn't cry if it got killed either.

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#47 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts
[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]Life itself (obviously) begins at conception. I do not consider the fetus to be a human being at least until it becomes sentient.MrPraline
Agreed.

Life itself starts even before conception, in a strict senste. Both cells are alive, yet they do not constitute a human being. The concerning point in here is this: when does a HUMAN life start? Maybe until it is satient, maybe a little before, but from the moment of conception we are talking about a living organism, since it has basic vital functions, yet, it is still not human (that last thing is my point of view).
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#48 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Life begins at conception. Though, many would argue that it begins at birth.

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#49 curono
Member since 2005 • 7722 Posts

Life begins at conception. Though, many would argue that it begins at birth.

foxhound_fox
Care to elaborate why? Not life, but human life starts from conception?
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#50 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
I don't care about "life". I care about "sentient life".