Omission of 5 player local on MK8 was a huge mistake

I am referring to the feature of 4 players splitscreened on the tv, while an additional player is on the GamePad. Also they could have let one player play on the GamePad and one player on the tv for online modes.

This feature was utilized in Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed and would have made much more sense for MK8. Considering MK8 is a game that gathers friends around the tv just waiting for a turn to play. Instead of cycling through 4 people, you would have 5. Framerate drops should not be a factor, it would be well worth it to have an additional human player.

This isn't a deal breaking omission and I do not raise this topic to nitpick. I mention this because MK8 is one of the supporting pillars in Nintendo's strategy to revitalize the momentum of the failing Wii U platform. While MK8 highlights graphical prowess with vibrant track environments, the most extensive online features yet in a Nintendo game, and all around more balanced/fun karting gameplay, it is yet another Nintendo game that is unable to effectively integrate the platforms core innovations. These core innovations are present and in replacement of excellent features on other platforms (powerful hardware, new tech), but we only see these innovations (secondary screen functions) with a handful of generally forgetful experiences like Nintendo Land.

"Mario Kart 8 made my kids put down their iPods, and that's worth celebrating."But they could have really driven this phenomenon further. I doubtfully hope this can be included on a DLC pack or update. Nonetheless a missed opportunity to immediately show a crowd of gamers that only come back to Nintendo to play the MK and SSB franchises why Wii U exists the way it does.

Those friend groups with exclusively and exactly 5 people who want to play MK8 are going to disappointed...

This statement is a little silly. Even if it holds true for some people, this doesn't equate to a "huge mistake". A minor oversight is what I'd call it. It would've been nice, but it doesn't actually effect me or a lot of people in the world. Personally, I have 4 or 6 people who play MK8 in my friend group. When it's more than 4, it's a fun party atmosphere and rotating controllers adds to the fun.

I have to agree that it was a mistake and a missed opportunity. But not like anything can be done about it now. I don't see an update being able to fix that.

Why make four players then? Or 3? Let's just keep multiplayer at 2, because whoever heard of the more the merrier? Right now, Nintendo shouldn't be screwing up on their flagship titles. At all. Whether it's a giant debacle or a minor misstep, it's a negative that shouldn't in a Nintendo game at this point. As the TC said, if Sonic All-Stars did 5 player local, then why isn't Mario Kart 8? Why should third-parties do more with Nintendo's hardware than Nintendo themselves?

As I said, when it gets to the point of 5 or more people, it's becoming a party atmosphere anyway. People don't mind chatting, sitting around, rotating controllers, etc. Me and my flatmates used to play 2 player Tekken with around 15 people, rotating the controllers. Similarly with Mario Kart with 5 or 6 people as well. Yes, it's an oversight, but my point is that "huge mistake" is an overstatement simply because at that amount of people it becomes less important having that many available players.

Such a minor thing to make a thread about. There are so many other little problems bigger than this in Mario Kart.

I will admit it's not a "huge"mistake, however, anything worth notice is worth discussing. It's not the job of the topic creator to find the biggest issues in the world and make threads about them. It's merely their job to make things they wish to talk about.

Yup, I'll agree with that. I'll stick with my initial point, and retract that last comment.

I assume they either tried 5 players but it caused complications (probably framerate), or they didn't have the time to implement it because of a rushed release (can also explain the lackluster Battle Mode).

The person playing on the pad would be the odd guy out since no one would see his screen and he wouldn't be part of the fun. They could have made it so the pad-guy was a Lakitu or something and could drop item blocks or items on the track.

Also, does MK8 let you race against CPUs on any track at any time like in MKDS or was Nintendo stupid again and didn't include it?

I was wondering this as well, but it would seem so, yes:

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/62617/t2006052-single-player-vs-mode/

EDIT: more confirmation:

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/05/16/mario-kart-8-w-video/

"Single Player mode offers Grand Prix, Time Trials, VS Race, and Battle play."

So that's great news. :)

I don't see how its a big mistake, or even a mistake at all

Let me start by saying that it's 2014 and online multiplayer is better than same room multiplayer in every possible way.

That being said Nintendo has an affinity for the 90's and the last decade the company was relevant so they like this "same room less quality" stuff.

It's a huge mistake because it's one less participant that can play at the same time. It also means same room multiplayer is missing the one play option that lets someone see the ENTIRE track and not one chopped down with other racers.

The whole Sonic racing and Mario Kart battle shows how Nintendo is lazy and scared when it comes to heir games. Sonic racing is the first game in the genre to take on Mario Kart and offers a much better battle system.

3rd parties also made some of the best wii games as well.

nintendo 1st party isnt always perfect when using their own hardware.

You should retract your initial point as well. It just has to be friend groups or general settings where 5 or more people are involved, not "exactly." It is a huge mistake because the general gaming and entertainment audiences are not buying Wii U's. Wii U is one of Nintendo's worse selling platforms, ever. Nintendo (Iwata) themselves have said that this can be attributed to not properly conveying the benefits that can almost only exclusively be utilized with the GamePad. They use the GamePad as a core feature in games that are not that significant, but it is an afterthought in NSMBU, SM3DW, and now with MK8 it once again is used in a way that makes me wish Nintendo just spent their money on competitive hardware and a proper OS. Even Pikmin 3 could have taken that second screen and touchpad much further. NSMBU could have had a 5 person sidescrolling or could have used it like Raymen Legends.

Though it sounds very dramatic, I completely stand by my statement that it continues to be a snowballing huge mistake; when you keep releasing your most important games with vanilla lite features using the GamePad. Nintendo sacrificed good hardware and much more for alternative tech, but most of the games they release that are most important to the platform are almost no different had they have had just a regular dual analog controller. The only difference would be massively better graphics, which their franchises would have stood out more in that case.

Think about it in very basic terms. The pros of the console are not being used, but the cons are more apparent than ever.

Kinda knit-picky... Don't you think?

You understand that you're basically asking them to render 4 720p screens and a fifth 480p screen? I know Sonic did it but that was a 360/PS3 port. Mario Kart 8 is pushing the Wii U graphically even if its 720p. I wish it was there but there are real, sound technological reasons for it to be absent

I disagree, the framerate drops when you have 3 players, having five with one on the gamepad screen. It wouldn't surprise me to see it drop below 30, that would be a travesty with the game usually running at 60.

No, no there's not lol

Agreed. If Sonic Transformed pulled it off, there is no reason why Mario Kart shouldn't be able to.

Sonic Transformed is one of the first Mascot racers (This gen) that actually gives Mario Kart a run for it's money and it's actually better in some aspects. Nintendo needs to patch that. It can be done, it'll just take some time to add the code.

However, I agree with @4myAmuzumament that if the 5th player wont be racing, they could take control of things like Chain Chomp, (Can't use Lakitu because he's a playable character now), Piranha Plants and other stage interactive creatures to try to attack the racers. Spinies would be a great item as well. You could use them like banana peels and the player who hits them gets a flat tire and drives slower for about 2 seconds, kind of like a spike strip.

@nini200 said:

However, I agree with @4myAmuzumament that if the 5th player wont be racing, they could take control of things like Chain Chomp, (Can't use Lakitu because he's a playable character now), Piranha Plants and other stage interactive creatures to try to attack the racers. Spinies would be a great item as well. You could use them like banana peels and the player who hits them gets a flat tire and drives slower for about 2 seconds, kind of like a spike strip.

I like that idea too

@Jaysonguy said:

@nini200 said:

However, I agree with @4myAmuzumament that if the 5th player wont be racing, they could take control of things like Chain Chomp, (Can't use Lakitu because he's a playable character now), Piranha Plants and other stage interactive creatures to try to attack the racers. Spinies would be a great item as well. You could use them like banana peels and the player who hits them gets a flat tire and drives slower for about 2 seconds, kind of like a spike strip.

I like that idea too

Yeah that could work great. They'd have to use a character such as Kamek to do so since Lakitu is a racer now which makes it make even more sense since Kamek tries to sabotage people anyway.

I'm not denying the fact that it is an after thought, but your solution of "adding another play so it's 5 players" is not a must have solution - the fact that it was not included does not make it a "huge mistake". It does only impact the groups of "exactly" 5 people, because if it were 6 people, you've got 1 left out anyway. And my main point is that at this amount of people and beyond (4+), it becomes a party atmosphere. It really doesn't matter who's playing at this point. Watching becomes part of the fun, and no one minds rotating controllers. I've been to so many shindigs with so many different friend groups that I've never come across a situation where someone was outraged among a set of 5+ people because they weren't playing. They can simply watch, talk and laugh with friends as the controllers rotate. It's really no big deal, hence why I think "huge mistake" is an overstatement. You bring up the point that because audiences are buying Wii U's, then this feature could change that - I highly doubt that. The current set of features (off screen play, map off screen, a horn) are as mundane as the box saying "now 5 players!".

Your problem is with the lack of innovation with the game pad. Things like adding a 5th player doesn't actually change much in the real world. If you want something meaningful, then there needs to be a better idea than this. Personally, I'm okay with off-screen play, nice menu navigation with solid game play vs shoe-horned in gimmicks that break the game play. A 5th player is a nice addition that is not a gimmick, but at the same time, as I've said throughout my posts, having 5 players doesn't actually change much - hence why it's not a huge mistake. If sales is something you're concerned with, then there needs to be something more gameplay centric to advertise than a 5th player to advertise.

I'm simply speaking from a practical, real world perspective. You're asking for a feature that will add negligible happiness into the world. People at those parties are going to be having a good time regardless of 4 or 5 players. Yes, the game pad is an after thought, but you're not giving any good solutions yourself. Not that you have to, it's not your job to, but I'm debunking your current suggestion as a good one.

It is a sad omission. If Mario Kart 8 did it, it would probably become a staple in future multiplayer games.

your trying way too hard buddy......

@thedude-: I'm sure it had to do with system resources, they could not deliver the quality experience they wanted with rendering an extra screen on pad.

Looks like this was already discussed.

Nope, Sonic already did it.....

@Jaysonguy: So I guess Sonic is graphically on par with MK then.

Careful going down this road

I have no problem walking down it but if you're someone who is firmly in the Wii U corner you'll probably want to stay where you are

@Jaysonguy: Lol no I have seen your long posts I want no part of that. Anyways its not that big of a deal. But if you know the Wii U hardware just as much as Nintendo dev team please explain.

@dennysinny: You're probably right.

At what framerate does Sonic Racing Transformed for Wii U run at and what is the resolution when five players are playing? I would not be surprised if it is not 720p. While it would be nice if Nintendo gave the option, it probably did not wish to compromise the game anymore (removing background details, lowering resolution/framerate) lest it also compromise its overall presentation.

but i understood what your saying... i mean its not that bad... just 1 less person to play it wont hurt and even if 5 people are around maybe one of them are not even a gamer like that so wouldnt mind waiting or not playing in the first place

Going to interject and say that as a party game, nothing beats local. You can't share food, alcohol or punches online.

Please reread my posts in this thread as you have sorely missed the point. It doesn't make this game bad and it won't be a feature that uninformed gamers (the vocal majority) will notice, but it is an oversight that snowballs into a big mistake for the overall platform. Take a step back from a single piece of software and look at the few blockbuster releases that have arrived on the platform. They all have blatantly obvious features that could have utilized the GamePad (NSMB, Pikmin 3, SM3DW, MK8, even DKTF). Ive mentioned them. When they makes games that can be done on the other next gen systems almost identically except the visuals would be much better, the loading times would be shorter and there would be online features that utilize the community in a virally fun way.

Adding 5 players allows for gameplay that isn't easily or at all possible on most other systems. It may not be a personal highlight for you, but you display your subjective thought in an overtly objective manner. Having 5 players moves us beyond the previous limit. Many people would have thought its not realistic, but now it is with the only advantage a Wii U has over its competitors. These little features are all the Wii U has over its alternatives hardware. Nintendo is not making good on their own claims.

Nintendo has created a gaming world where their big hardware gimmicks become true to the negative interpretation to the word "gimmick." Insignificant games sometimes use the GamePad heavily, but any of their system sellers could function almost the same way with a dual analog and a pop up screen.

I'm still not convinced. Five players instead of four is hardly a big deal. Imagine trying to convince your friends to get a Wii U instead of a PS4 with such a feature. It's silly. I'll stop here at the risk of repeating myself.

It really doesn't phase me if you are convinced or not. 5 players is just one of many examples and if its like what other suggested (which is an expansion of my original suggestion) to add an omni player like Lakitu or Kammy Koopa as a player who controls what is normally controlled by an NPC or programmed behavior of the track then that is a totally new addition to the MK universe. 5 players, more touch screen control in Pikmin 3, more screen real estate in DKTF when playing coop are things that only can be done on Wii U. If Nintendo is going to share your attitude toward way forward thinking features with their own tech then give me a system that is more like Sony and MS because there is absolutely no point to having motion controls or second screen experiences that are essentially a lie to consumers. The positives are far fewer and less lasting than the negatives. Or just go even cheaper with the console so its a 200 dollar machine with a standard controller next generation.

My approach is cold and on point with how Nintendo have failed to excite this generation with their consoles.

There were likely technical reasons for it, but I think the gamepad could have taken Battlemode to a whole new level. I'm actually surprised nintendo skipped out on this area.

My response (which is the first response) is to your initial post which is referencing Sonic All Star Racing, and simply having 5 players racing. Not having this feature is still hardly huge mistake, as I've said. You're bringing up other mechanics I've already addressed earlier saying that these things matter - so other people's elaborations are good ideas if they're on some interesting game mechanics. As I've said earlier, there are other things in MK that could be enhanced with other mechanics.

I agree with you that they have failed to excite this generation with their console, but I'm addressing your initial post which was explicitly about an additional racer ala Sonic Racing. We seem to agree on this now, getting past the fact that I personally think 5 players racing is not a big deal, where as you do. We at least see eye to eye on additional features needed by the gamepad in other respects anyway.

"This isn't a deal breaking omission and I do not raise this topic to nitpick. I mention this because MK8 is one of the supporting pillars in Nintendo's strategy to revitalize the momentum of the failing Wii U platform. While MK8 highlights graphical prowess with vibrant track environments, the most extensive online features yet in a Nintendo game, and all around more balanced/fun karting gameplay, it is yet another Nintendo game that is unable to effectively integrate the platforms core innovations. These core innovations are present and in replacement of excellent features on other platforms (powerful hardware, new tech), but we only see these innovations (secondary screen functions) with a handful of generally forgetful experiences like Nintendo Land."

Please reread this entire quote but mainly the bolded lines. I said it was a huge mistake for the well being of the platform. Its pretty clear "isn't a deal breaking omission." Other mechanics that relates to GamePad integration beyond supplementary info and completely ties into a 5 player if it was implemented (or if less than 4 are playing that works too).

That was the whole point and I made myself completely clear. Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing is a bad route to go down.

And I'm clearly talking about your opening two paragraphs, obviously - I've even referred to your Sonic reference and "huge mistake" in regards of not having 5 players. I've elaborated saying that other innovations are fine. You're siding stepping my original point.

"I am referring to the feature of 4 players splitscreened on the tv, while an additional player is on the GamePad. Also they could have let one player play on the GamePad and one player on the tv for online modes.

This feature was utilized in Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed and would have made much more sense for MK8. Considering MK8 is a game that gathers friends around the tv just waiting for a turn to play. Instead of cycling through 4 people, you would have 5. Framerate drops should not be a factor, it would be well worth it to have an additional human player."

@trugs26: it's a rather major oversight, given that Sonic Racing did it over a year prior.

You are telling me what I am referring to as a "huge mistake" and you are wrong. I clearly said the "huge mistake" was the continuing trend of games that are almost no different than dual analog controlled game. If you want to play rhetoric wars then just look back to the original statements. Other innovations are not really happening, they are just being dreamed about by people on forums.

I clearly said 5 players is not going to disrupt the gaming world as a whole but it was an oversight, however the pattern of having this "mehhhh it doesn't make that big of a difference" attitude on Nintendo's part that you share with them is very large part of the problem. If the GamePad is just an afterthought then we should have seen progression of other features (hardware, online, other controllers) that were competitive with other consoles.

Subject title:

"Omission of 5 player local on MK8 was a huge mistake"

Then your first sentence:

"I am referring to the feature of 4 players splitscreened on the tv, while an additional player is on the GamePad", of which you referred to Sonic as the example of a game that did it. It wasn't clear that you're referring to the general concept of gamepad play. Your topic title and first two paragraphs are explicitly about 5 player local multiplayer. It's obviously not clear and I apologise if I read your thread wrong. Personally, I think you did mean it that way originally and you're just twisting things now. But that is besides the point.

Secondly, I'm not saying "mehhhhh". I do think that the gamepad should be better utilised. I was specifically saying your example of 5 player local multiplayer is hardly a good suggestion. As I said, "The current set of features (off screen play, map off screen, a horn) are as mundane as the box saying "now 5 players!"."

@trugs26: It was clear. I clearly said it wasn't a game breaking omission. There are no edits to my post. The only way you have validity to you claim/criticism is if we are allowed to observe what people say completely out of context. Just reading the headline or the first few sentences is simply not good enough to understand what I am saying. You have to read the whole thing. I am not twisting anything, there is no ruse going on here. If this was solely focused on the game hinging on a 5 player feature then I would not be talking about the generally bad ecosystem of the Wii U, I would just be talking about the specifics of MK8.

"The current set of features (off screen play, map off screen, a horn) are as mundane as the box saying "now 5 players!" That is a ridiculous thing to say. An additional player takes so much more work to implement and has real life effect on how you play the game in comparison to off screen footnotes/help. An additional human player is much more of a threat than a lifeless NPC, its increased competition. 5 players it not the end all of gaming, but to equate it to those gimmicks is just laughable and clearly a way to overcompensate for a fragmented argument.

Point 1 (headline, paragraph 1, paragraph 2): Lack of 5 player multiplayer is a huge mistake

Point 2 (paragraph 3): An abstract view on how MK8 generally lacks innovation

Conclusion: A missed opportunity. The Wii U without this innovation is just like the competition, except with worse specs.

This is the fundamental structure of your post. You're making two points, and the heading of your post and first two paragraphs (not just "a few sentences") is about your suggestion. I already acknowledge the rest of your post as legit, I've said so many times. You're really wasting time coming back to this. My original post was explicitly referring to your point 1. Do you want me to break it down for you even more? I can say it even more explicitly if you like? "Your suggestion of 5 player multiplayer is stupid". I don't think that in exactly those words, but it seems like I have to make it this blunt to make it clear for you.

Your second paragraph is just deluded in this thread now. I'm not discussing the point of how 5 player multi-player is not a "huge mistake". I've already written thousands of words in this post describing my thoughts. I'm not coming back to this after this stupid meta argument we just had.

That is swell, you improperly outlined my original post, but it doesn't bolster whatever your ever changing point is supposed to be. For this whole thing to be ok, by your crazy standards, I would have needed to put my entire theme into my headline right? Like "Omission of 5 player local on MK8 was a huge mistake because it is yet another game to ignore GamePad features which is a major factor in the failure of Wii U" which I could not fit nor would even bother considering I expect people reading to understand the post as a whole, not dissect specific parts to misinterpret for their own purposes.

I have one fundamental point, I've spent plenty of wasted words of it on you. Make GamePad games integrated into your big game releases. Now 5 players is stupid? Ok well it is objectively less stupid than a touchscreen enabled horn. If additional players are so stupid why even have 4 players, why not just 2 or make is single player for that matter. Why even have online if additional players is conveniently stupid. You abnormally dislike the idea of an additional player. Fine just a very odd opinion that doesn't require your constant repetition of said opinion.

Jeez. I can't believe I have to say this again. Your point about the general lack of integration is not what I'm talking about. Your point about the lack of use of the gamepad, yes, I agree. You had an example of 5 player, no I disagree with this suggestion. That is all. Your head line and opening two paragraphs is what I'm talking about. I'm sorry if you think my standards of novel use of the gamepad is more important than simply 5 players.

Your second paragraph, I've already addressed in earlier posts. I've already repeated myself to you so many times now. I'm not doing it again.

Theres nothing for you to repeat. Each of my paragraphs, sentences or headlines are not all separate entities, they exist as a lead up to the ultimate point, they are connected. You cannot surgically disseminate from my statement as a whole and not expect me to call you out for shenanigans, thats literally the definition of "taking it out of context." What is your proper GamePad suggestion for Mario Kart then?????? If 5 players is so evil or not good enough for you, what is the proper GamePad use because every major Nintendo title should utilize the GamePad in a way that does not get in the way of the original game, only enhance it? You are taking such an artificially strong stance (just to argue) against a feature that does not get in your way if you never wanted to use it, but so many other would love it.

And your contention/criticism morphs as we keep talking because originally I was over exaggerating about the huge mistake that they made with MK8 (out of context).

I am half expecting you to now make some weird argument that 5 players gets in the way of the original MK experience...

Edit: I am happy to have any GamePad use so if you have a suggestion better than 5 players or a Kami overworld player and it is a better idea then they should add that.

I've already addressed why the lack of 5 players is not a "huge mistake"
I never said it was evil. In fact, I said it would be nice.
I don't have to come up with ideas on gameplay experiences, I'm the end user. I can if I want, but I'm not obliged to. You're welcome to as well, but be open to criticism - as you've just received.
I'm not taking a strong stance, I'm just saying it's a feature that has no real impact on the world. Nice if it was there, not a big difference if it wasn't.

You made two points. I disagreed with one. Deal with it.

You really just did not understand a very clear original post by me and you are dragging it out now haha. Whether you addressed it or not, you addressed something that doesn't exist. You cannot put words in my mouth; take segments of what I say and ignore sentences directly afterwords. You shouldn't be giving criticism on subjects you really are failing to grasp at.

You really just cannot understand that the huge mistake is ignoring the GamePad with a series of games and my words directly lead into that. MK8 is just one example, but I used it since its one of the biggest games coming out this year and its very close to coming out. Would you be ranting and raving like this if I labeled the thread "Lack of GamePad on Nintendo AAA games is a huge mistake"?? Because that's essentially what I am saying in the long run anyways, me highlighting MK8 as an example really stumps you. I am sorry next time I will make a thread that has more excessively overly clear basic diction so there isn't an unnecessary confusion. Confusion that is being held onto like one's life depended on it.

Edit: If your criticism involved reasons why Nintendo is not making a huge mistake for the platform ignoring GamePad features for their most important games (PLURAL) then I could have a normal conversation with you. I will not accept a criticism that is on completely false pretense. Instead you keep harping on why one game, one isolated incident lacking a feature is not a huge mistake for that one specific game. I am in agreement with you. Its not a huge mistake for the success (financially, critically) of one game (Mario Kart 8), but it most definitely is for the overall system. If you cannot recognize this pivotal distinction then there is no point in saying anything further.