Will Nintendo stick with PowerPC for Wii U successor?

It's a senseless discussion at this point.

We don't know what's going to happen with tech when the new console is announced. Specs don't matter now, all that matters is power, the more power you have the better a console you have.

Specs now are useless, it's like deciding who a sports team is going to start next season before this one is even finished

Or maybe have a custom x86/ARM cores with integrated graphics.

@Jaysonguy: You just couldn't wait to come in and poop on the discussion? Had to be first? Well, okay you think its senseless. Now go mock all of us "senseless" individuals who want to discuss this question, no matter how silly/stupid/pre-mature, somewhere else.

Also, it kinda does matter now. AMD has already hinted that they've got some sort of non-phone, dedicated handheld contract lined up and since 2015 is approaching Nintendo would likely be choosing their next handheld/console's chipsets or general hardware makers (IBM, Intel, AMD, ARM, etc) right now for a 2016-2017 launch.

And Nintendo has said they expect to return to bigger profits fiscal year 2016-2017, hinting at a potential new hardware release between April 2016 and March 2017. So its a little bit relevant today, even if information is scarce. But by all means, go ahead of tell everyone they're silly for discussing something today instead of just doing that on your own time and away from those people. If its so senseless then don't talk to us about it.

I'd like to add that I feel like AMDs skybridge project, if I understand it right. Is perfect for the company's Nintendo OS plans. One platform, two devices.

Ship consoles with both x86 and ARM on same board, then ship handheld with just the ARM parts. Handheld games can be played on console due to instant compatibility while console can get its own games a LA iPad that use more power

They'll use it again, as they should. Also, Power PC =/= Wii U's power 750 processor, don't lump all POWER cpu's together.

Two things :

A. Nintendo's teams are used to this archictecture, all their tools are built around it.

B. It's actually a pretty capable architecture that has more in common with ps4's/Xbone cpu than 360's. With Gpu's taking over a lot of general code, Cpu compute for games is meaning less and less, and even if it has shortcomings when directly compared with the 360's cpu (because back then gpu compute couldn't hack it), it actually fits right in with game console architecture moving forward. In fact, it's actually much more efficient than what's in the ps4.

So in a way, Nintendo has actually been ahead of the curve xD

All they need is an 8 core variant with lots of l3 cache and improved SIMD and they'll be golden.

AMD APUs. :P

Whether they stick to it or not, they need to make sure it's something 3rd parties are willing to work with. It's more important for Nintendo to work with 3rd parties on engine compatibility to make porting easier. They already collaborated with Unity Tech to bring their engine to Wii U. Build the project on your PC, and it'll work on Wii U(maybe with some concessions). Nintendo needs that level of cooperation with EA for Frostbite and Epic for Unreal. If the porting process is easy and the chip is good enough, it won't matter what architecture it is.

Bear in mind that Nintendo isn't using some plain PowerPC chip for Wii U. Espresso, although it has similarities to Wii's Broadway, is heavily modified.

Nintendo would be wise to go with the same processors that Sony and Microsoft use for Playstation 5 and Xbox 4. Whatever in 2017 the current processors are.

Then 3rd parties could port there games with ease between the 3 console makers. AMD or INTEL or whatever the next chip maker provides the computer chips for 9th generation videogame consoles.

Power PC just does not cut it anymore. The Gamecube, The Wii, And the Wii U used them but Power PC should not be used for the Wii U successor.

I know that Nintendo's systems are historically bereft of RAM. Whatever they make next, it needs to have at least 8 GB of RAM. Maybe even 12 or 16 GB of RAM. They always have to do crazy things for their games because one aspect is always low.

I really think that despite a PowerPC based processor probably being very good that most third parties would just say "oh nevermind" and ignore Nintendo's next home console if they used it.

They really need to go ARM or AMD, if not ARM via AMD

I agree that Nintendo needs to go with whatever the standard is. If it's AMD or ARM, then that should be it. They really need to reach out to developers and ask what it is they want. And offer the support to bring those games over. It's the only way a 3rd party will take a chance on the next Nintendo, short of Nintendo financing the whole development.

@bunchanumbers I don't think Nintendo "historically" has been lacking RAM. The Wii was the first console that was purposely underpowered. The Wii U has 2GBs of RAM, compared to the 360, which has 512MB (same amount the Wii has, btw). I don't think Nintendo thought Sony would increase their memory by 16x!

@Grieverr: He meant lacking in RAM in comparison to contemporary competitors. Wii had 88MB RAM (I think) vs 512MB in 360, Wii U has 2GB (only 1GB for games) versus 8GB (5GB games) in current consoles.

On that topic, I imagine Nintendo's next handheld will rock 2GB DDR4 (1GB OS) and console will use 10GB-12GB. They seem to go just a bit above doubling what their competitors used the previous gen.

Though I'd happily buy a $400 Nintendo console in 2017 that packed 16GB RAM, 8-12 Core CPU, 4-6TFlop GPU, etc.

Arm would be horrible performance wise for a home console, and since the architecture will be shared between the handheld, Arm is ruled out.

I really think they're going to just enhance the Wii U's cpu, hell, they could probably stick the current Wii U CPU in the handheld it's so damn small already at 45nm, at 22nm or lower it would be extremely small and be the perfect size. Iwata himself said they're looking to integrate Wii U's architecture into the handheld, so... I don't think anything other than this will happen.

It is really not that much different coding for the power architecture than it is for X86, don't be fooled, the only reason multiplat developers don't make an effort on Wii U is because the publishers know how much they will sell. If the install base and lots of extra power over the Ps4 is there, X86 vs. Power PC will not make any difference whatsoever.

@Chozofication: How does ARM being needed for mobile "rule it out"? If anything that makes it more plausible. ARM is what DS, 3DS and most mobile phones use.

Nintendo could use say AMD ARM based 8-core CPU/GPU on 3DS successor then use 16-core or 32-core version of same SoC in console with higher clock speeds and more RAM. 8-core CPU @800Mhz, 8-Core GPU @ 300Mhz and 2GB DDR4 RAM in handheld, ARM 16 or 32-Core (by 2017) 3Ghz CPU and ARM GPU and 8GB RAM.

This year we're expecting to see phones with 16-core ARM processors that produce 320 Gflops, clocked up to 3Ghz already. Honestly by 2016-2017 we could legit see ARM hardware that catches up with PS4/XB1 or damn near close

Actually the N64 did have a RAM upgrade so that they could run some of their higher end games. lol I think it was like a 8 meg ram cart.

@bunchanumbers: The N64 had 4MB RAM and the expansion pak had 4MB, combining to a total of 8MB

@bonesawisready5: I would compare the Wii U specs to the PS360, but you may have a point that as their next-gen machine, we should compare it to the PS4/X1. But I don't think those consoles were a blip in the radar when the Wii U was being made back in 2010 or 2011.

yep! 8 megs lol! I still can't believe how technology advances!

But even with the initial 4MB, the N64 had double that of the PS1, which had 2MB. So again, Nintendo didn't have weaker hardware (until the Wii).

@Grieverr: I know N64 had more RAM than PS1. I wasn't saying that. I was just saying how his "historically lacking RAM" makes sense with Wii and Wii U compared to their contemporary counterparts. Heck, GCN didn't have as much RAM as OG Xbox, DS had a shockingly low amount of RAM even for 2004 and 3DS has barely 128MB in 2011 when 256MB-512MB was pretty cheap for phones.

What? 16 cores? 32 cores? These are game machines, not server farms. :/ You must've read something about cpu's designed for servers. And PHONES having that much? The iphone 6 has a dual core cpu... so I don't know what you're talking about. Some phones do have quad cores though.

8 core cpu's already have problems with code being too multi-threaded, hampering performance, any more than that atm is overkill and counter productive. Intel just started making 6 core cpu's for the desktop, y'know..

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Anyways, Yeah arm is great for handheld devices, but doesn't provide enough power for a home console. So, knowing that Nintendo wants to share an architecture, that rules out ARM because it's not strong enough for the console side. People thought arm would be used for the Ps4 and Xbone as well for some reason, but it wasn't for this same reason - it just doesn't cut it. It's strictly designed for mobile.

he's a cat it's what they do lol

i would be surprised if they did to be honest. the CPU in the wiiu is proving to be problematic. its not really up to the job. rumor has it (usual salt supliment recommended of course) IBM are also thinking of pulling out of the CPU business (they are turning more into a services and infrastructure company).

if nintendo take 3rd party support seriously for their next console then x86 would be strongly recommended. ARM wouldnt be bad as long as its basically the beefiest processor in ARMs aresenal backed by extra modifications specific to games. many 3rd parites are also getting to know ARM well. but at the high end x86 is recommended.

if nintendo dont really care about 3rd party support then ARM would make a lot of sense. its something nintendo are very familiar with and it would do the job. it would make development across the console and handheld business more efficent and many of the elements of the console could be integrated into a handheld further down the line (when it makes sense from a power draw and hear perspective) so R&D would also be more efficent.

if i was nintendo i would be taking a good hard look at an ARM and nvidia setup for my next console and handheld. having the latest ARM (modified as required of course) backed by a mid-high end laptop GPU (depending on size and cooling capacity of the console) and a handheld using the same processor, just fewer cores and clocked lower, and whatever nvidia have on the mobile GPU (its basically the same architecture with the same features as its desktop counterpart. just nowhere near as powerful) side would make cross platform development, tools development, OS development etc. a lot easier. one set of tools could be used to develop for both platforms.

there would sill be handheld only games and console only games but internally people just need to know one set of tools and a lot of the tech could be shared between the handheld and console which cuts down on costs.

AMD could also have something in the pipeline that could do the same thing of course...we shall see.

at the moment its a bit messy for nintendo. the 3DS and wiiu essentially have nothing in common. so each device needs its own tools, its own quirks, its own architecture to learn and so on.

@Chozofication: You don't appear to have kept up with ARM Mobile news. ARM has had a 16-core Mali GPU that could do nearly 300Gflops since Late October 2013 and was looking to get it into $350 Smartphones

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2058920/arm-delivers-first-16core-mali-gpu-design.html

ARM also has a 16-core CPU since late 2013 and this particularly CPU will be considered "mid range" in phones in 2015, I believe it can go up to 3GHz

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/176422-arm-announces-cortex-a17-the-new-cpu-core-that-finally-replaces-cortex-a9

So ARM is pretty much caught up, nearly at worst, to 360/PS3 level specs in a cell phone. I'm just saying, if they're here in 2014 I could see a Nintendo console rocking 16-core or 32-core, tablet/smartphone intended CPU/GPUs that get close to an Xbox One in terms of performance (not necessarily exactly) in 2017. Heck by the time 2017 rolls around we may be looking at phones with CPU/GPU with MORE than 16-32 cores.

I'd imagine Nintendo could opt for Quad-Core CPU/GPU or 8-core in 4DS/HDS, then put 16 or 32 core in next console, port between each with console getting some more powerful exclusives, etc.

Yup reckon they will just steroid up the current Wii U specs...find out what's severely lacking in current Wii U..boost them up. :P

What you linked to is a quad core cpu, bub.. Count the cores :p

Perhaps you were thinking of one of these articles, which is about server cpu's for cell phone use.

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I'll admit I don't know much about ARM gpu's, or how many stream processors are in one of those 16 cores but I can definitely tell you that benchmarks for mobile gpu's are fudged all the time. It seems like since the middle of last generation Nvidia for example has been saying mobile is on par with ps3/360 but it's been complete bs every time, after every previous year they would even say "but this time we've really done it!" When in reality, they hadn't even caught up to the nintendo wii in 2009, maybe even 2010. Sometimes I look at Vita games and think that the OG Xbox could do a better job.. I remember Timothy lottes (creator of FXAA) who worked at Nvidia say that cell phones were at about 25% of an xbox 360's capabilities back in 2012.

Bottom line, there is a lot of BS thrown about when talking about cell phones for gaming, be it they're going to get rid of gaming handhelds, or huge exaggeration of power.

@Chozofication said:

@bonesawisready5 said:

@Chozofication:

ARM also has a 16-core CPU since late 2013 and this particularly CPU will be considered "mid range" in phones in 2015, I believe it can go up to 3GHz

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/176422-arm-announces-cortex-a17-the-new-cpu-core-that-finally-replaces-cortex-a9

What you linked to is a quad core cpu, bub.. Count the cores :p

Perhaps you were thinking of one of these articles, which is about server cpu's for cell phone use.

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I'll admit I don't know much about ARM gpu's, or how many stream processors are in one of those 16 cores but I can definitely tell you that benchmarks for mobile gpu's are fudged all the time. It seems like since the middle of last generation Nvidia for example has been saying mobile is on par with ps3/360 but it's been complete bs every time, after every previous year they would even say "but this time we've really done it!" When in reality, they hadn't even caught up to the nintendo wii in 2009, maybe even 2010. Sometimes I look at Vita games and think that the OG Xbox could do a better job.. I remember Timothy lottes (creator of FXAA) who worked at Nvidia say that cell phones were at about 25% of an xbox 360's capabilities back in 2012.

Bottom line, there is a lot of BS thrown about when talking about cell phones for gaming, be it they're going to get rid of gaming handhelds, or huge exaggeration of power.

You raise an interesting point there with the vita.

in some areas you are right. the first xbox can do better. its mainly the GPU side where the vita gets beaten though (things like smoke effects kill the vitas performance. some significant cuts were needed to these effects in killzone mercenary).

however we are not talking about the GPU side. the CPU has proven to be quite capable. they got very very close to running all the game logic in assasins creed. thats well beyond what the wii CPU and first xbox CPU can do. the vita CPU can run up to 2GHz but they dont actually run anywhere near that speed. if they did the device would get very hot (my phone has a quad core 1.2GHz arm core and when its working flat out its easy to feel the heat). thats 3 arm cortex A9s running at around 800MHz running assasins creed. games like wipeout and littlebig planet also run without problems on the device.

thats a 3 core (4 in the device but 3 for games) device running games like that in a tine device with no active cooling.

if a CPU like that can run the game logic for assasins creed (or at least get very close to it) then what can an 8 core ARM (whatever the latest is) clocked very very high (its in a console so itll have active cooling) do?

the other thing to remember about ARM is that they just design the chip to the customers specifications. nintendo can request new features to be added to the CPU that are specific to enhancing gaming performance. the typical arm memory controller could be changed to one that will work with the latest DDR4 or GDDr5 or whatever. extra resources could be given over to increasing FPU performance. it can be in order or out of order execution...whatever the customer requires.

digital foundry ran a very interesting series of interviews with developers who were making vita games. assasins creed and wipeout are included. well worth a read. its interesting to see what developers can squeez out of, what is now, very old mobile hardware.

@osan0: Actually I was thinking of Killzone when I wrote that, it has terrible alpha effects. Also the vita port of strangers wrath is complete poop compared to the OG Xbox version, and many ps2 collections run/look like crap on Vita as well. Mobile graphics are literally 2 decades behind the top PC graphics cards. Have you seen that footage of bioshock running on a cell phone?

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As I even said earlier in the thread, pure cpu power is not as important as it used to be, so ARM might not be that bad of a decision since they can beef it up for the home console like you said. ...If the current architecture they have now wasn't already perfectly suiting their needs. It seems to me the biggest point of using ARM would be to get mobile game developers more comfortable with Nintendo hardware, but frankly those are just throw away games. If they wanted to make 3rd party developers as comfortable as possible, they would use X86, not ARM.

And a big reason I don't think they'll use X86 is because it wouldn't scale well to the handheld side of things, which is important to them.

The other thing is the Power PC cpu in Wii U still thrashes those unmodified ARM cores, so why invest time, research and money into making more custom chips when the architecture they have is doing just fine? Not to mention they've used it for over a decade and have to be wizards at using it by now. That's more time and money that would have to go to all Nintendo's developers learning the new architecture.

And if we're talking about having a good cpu for their next handheld, just take a look at how small the Wii U's cpu is already. With a next generation die shrink that thing would be perfect for their next handheld, and that also falls in perfectly to Iwata's words that they want to integrate Wii U's architecture into the next handheld.

So yeah, theoretically ARM could work if Nintendo needed hardware from a blank slate, but in reality makes no sense whatsoever.

@Chozofication: aye killzone does have alpha issues.i had a look at strangers wrath though and that looks like an upgrade over the original xbox version. its running at a higher res than the first xbox. it doesnt look as good as the PS3 version mind. as for some of the ports like the god of war collection...thats just bad porting. there is no reason why god of war should be running so poorly on the vita. a device that can play the likes of killzone mercenary and gravity rush should have no problem with god of war. hell the PSP did a better job in its day.

but that (killzone) is a GPU issue. any console would be an ARM CPU backed by a proper desktop GPU. a mobile GPU would only be used in a handheld of course.

so a lot of issues on the graphics side on the vita wouldnt be issues in a console just because it has an ARM CPU.

the CPU is also not just fine in the wiiu unfortunately. its very very poor. even as a gaming chip its poor. it cant even beat the CPUs from older consoles. games like lego city struggle at times because of it. its a contributing factor into why the wiiu is so slow to do anything (loading different parts of the OS etc). there is nothing even remotely impressive about the wiiu CPU....nintendo made a poor decision on that one. they had the right idea (using GPGPU and taking more work away from the CPU) but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

as a chip for a handheld its a non runner...its just not power efficent enough. die shrinkages will help but by then an arm chip would have it out classed in power efficency and performance. x86 actually has a better chance of a future in handhelds because intel and co are putting serious money into making that work in mobile devices (currently without much success mind). meanwhile ibm could not give a toss. even if they manage to get it to work once...what happens when the cpu needs an upgrade for the next handheld? stick more inefficent (in mobile terms) cores into it?

the reason i think ARM is better (this is assuming that nintendo dont care about 3rd party support much) is because nintendo are already familiar with it (they have been using ARM tech for a long long time going all the way back to the GBA). it has a future. it can be used in many different form factors. its highly customisable and its more power efficent. their plan of making todays console tomorrows handheld is more likely to work with an ARM CPU. it also allows both handheld and console to run on the same tech basis (albeit with a massive horsepower difference) which will make for a more efficent use of resources. the same engine can run on both devices with less modifications. the same tools can be used to make games on both devices and so on.

so i have to disagree. i think nintendo sticking with power PC (specifically the gamecubes processor) would leave them in a very bad spot. its like arguing that nintendo should stick to a fixed vertex/pixel shader pipeline in the GPU because thats what they have already used. there comes a point where building on top of that really old tech can no longer work.

the issues with visuals you highlight are issues with mobile GPUs (which, of course, have no business being in a console in their current form). they wouldnt be issues in an ARM based console backed by a full fat desktop GPU.

@osan0: Hmm, guess i was mistaken about strangers wrath then.

While some of the issues for 3rd party ports on Wii U are due to the cpu lacking quite a bit of SIMD performance, alot of the issue has to do with just how different the architectures are. In fact, it's pretty much on even grounds with xbox 360's xenon cpu in everything but SIMD, it even has more cache and can dip into as well as the eDRAM typically used by the gpu. Xenon is a very fast, but inefficient in order processor while espresso is a slow, but efficient out of order cpu. (Nintendo definitely should've beefed up the SIMD but I think they just didn't bother because their games are much more gpu focused.)

Of course developers that are so used to tools for the former aren't going to be near as good with the latter, with the lack of interest in putting effort into wii u ports from publishers.

But think about this - after developers get used to working with the GPGPU features of the ps4 this gen, it won't even matter much if it's lacking a bit in SIMD. They can just tweak the processor, make it an 8 core and give it plenty od l3 cache and let the gpu take over from there. So while the cpu is a bit of an issue this gen, it won't be next time. And certainly they would beef up the SIMD then.

Also, the cpu already draws less than 10 watts in its current form, at 16nm it could definitely be put in a handheld. You're right ARM would be even more efficient, but still.

You bring up a good point about them being used to arm on the handheld side, I could see Nintendo using ARM because of that, but there's an elephant in the room - the quote from Iwata..

ARM could definitely work out great as well, you're right about that. No matter what they go with though the multiplat devs will be there as long as it's powerful enough.

I think they will.

@Chozofication: I know, Iwata talks about absorbing Wii U's arch, but I don't know if that means they stick with PowerPC, Power7/8, something else IBM, etc. They could put Wii U CPU into a handheld potentially but couldn't a 12-core, 2.4Ghz AMD CPU emulate all Wii U games, effectively "absorbing" it?

I mean would a 12-Core x86 AMD CPU like Skybridge (which I believe the lowest clock for this is 2.7Ghz) be able to emulate a 3-core 1.24Ghz PowerPC? I don't know much about it though, I'd think its more than powerful enough though.

I do think plenty can be done with PowerPC but I fear developers just will stop caring when they hear those words.

Consider this though, if they dont go with PowerPC again, their next system will not be backwards compatible. Thats why PS4/Xbone are not, tech shift from PPC to x86.

@svaubel: Consider this: The Wii and Wii U are so weak in comparison to where modern AMD/Intel processors are going that I don't think its unreasonable to assume in 2016/2017 a lot of CPUs/GPUs will be able to emulate Wii/WiiU games fairly well.

I mean, doesn't it typically (Not in all cases tho) take roughly 3 times the CPU clock and speed to emulate some older consoles? Couldn't a 12-16 core x86 AMD CPU at 2.4Ghz per core pretty much run all WiiU titles?

Either way, its either drop Wii/WiiU BC or drop third party support really. I'd go with dropping BC everytime.

Who knows, who cares.

@Master_Of_Fools: Everyone posting in the thread except you and Jaysonguy? ZING

I believe popular theory is that its 10x the processing power. Wii can already be emulated now though.

Don't compare me to that moron. My post was meant to mean, their next console is like 4 years away, why care about it now, hell why care at all? It wont have the most OMFG POWER like always, it will be good enough to do whatever Nintendo needs it to do. Why care, I don't care how much power a console has, as long as it's easy to develop on I'm good to go.

@Master_Of_Fools: I can't explain to you why I "Care about it at all" just like you probably couldn't make me understand why you and others "shouldn't care about it at all"

Sorry for the JaysonGuy reference, I suppose that was too harsh lol.

And Nintendo's next console isn't 4 years away. Its likely a holiday 2017 release with a 2016 reveal, with the hardware being decided already. Heck, Iwata already said that they're working on their next system "absorbing" the Wii U's arch, so that probably leans towards PowerPC though it could be something else I suppose. If Iwata is saying that now then that likely means they've actually chosen a CPU provider at the least, like going with IBM vs ARM vs AMD, etc.

@bunchanumbers: Hmm, 10x processing power? Then couldn't an AMD Jaguar or Kaveri, theoretically clocked to 2.4GHz with 12 cores, do the job?

Wii U is three cores (not all three completely used by games btw, parts by OS I believe, not sure) at 1.24Ghz. I'd think that would do it, and AMD is aiming these Kaveri (and others like it) as mid-range SoC for computers. Would make it even cheaper by the time 2017 rolls around.

They might throw in Wii U hardware in the successor for backwards compatibility, but the main CPU/GPU will most likely be some kind of ARM SoC, or an AMD APU.

@emgesp: Isn't AMD's Project Skybridge basically an x86 APU with ARM added into it? Or am I misunderstanding it?

Nintendo could ship an AMD APU with Skybridge, including an ARM chipset in their next console and then just ship the ARM chipset in the console in their handheld, bam you have cross game development for the Nintendo OS they've been talking about.

Maybe if DX12 does what it says it does. Even then it would be a dicey situation. Nintendo tends to do crazy things with their games that doesn't fly with emulators. Like the heat effects on WW. Or the minimap in TP. Stuff like that is still struggled with even on today's hardware as far as emulation goes.

I'm sure by the time the next Nintendo console comes out ARM will have made an energy efficient 8 Core CPU that is better than the PS4/XB1's 8 Core Jaguar CPU. DDR4 will most likely be used as well.

@emgesp: I'm not against ARM in their next console at all. I'd be fine with a mid-level ARM in their handheld and uber-powerful ARM in their console.