What's with all these games getting such high scores?

  • 67 results
  • 1
  • 2

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for TropHouse
TropHouse

42

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#1 TropHouse
Member since 2008 • 42 Posts

I'm mainly speaking of grand theft auto IV here but what the hell?
Can anyone tell me what's so great about halo 3 as opposed to 1 and 2? The game doesn't even run in full HD. 540p. Proven. Will provide link.
GTAIV "unimproved" a whole bunch of its features since san andreas. Haven't played it since I beat the game and that's a disappointment.
Metal Gear Solid 4. Great game... I think? I loved it but for some reason I haven't touched it since I beat the game. I wouldn't call it a 10 though.

Honestly what bothers me the most is GTAIV. That game should have gotten a 7.5

Avatar image for rragnaar
rragnaar

27023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#2 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts
Oh no! A bunch of good games came out and they got high scores! Agh! I don't know what to do!!!
Avatar image for TropHouse
TropHouse

42

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#3 TropHouse
Member since 2008 • 42 Posts

Oh no! A bunch of good games came out and they got high scores! Agh! I don't know what to do!!!rragnaar

Oh no! An attack from an angry level 60 Otaku Troll!

Avatar image for rragnaar
rragnaar

27023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#4 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]Oh no! A bunch of good games came out and they got high scores! Agh! I don't know what to do!!!TropHouse

Oh no! An attack from an angry level 60 Otaku Troll!


Relax, I'm just joking.
Avatar image for xmen1414
xmen1414

1948

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#5 xmen1414
Member since 2006 • 1948 Posts

I'm mainly speaking of grand theft auto IV here but what the hell?
Can anyone tell me what's so great about halo 3 as opposed to 1 and 2? The game doesn't even run in full HD. 540p. Proven. Will provide link.
GTAIV "unimproved" a whole bunch of its features since san andreas. Haven't played it since I beat the game and that's a disappointment.
Metal Gear Solid 4. Great game... I think? I loved it but for some reason I haven't touched it since I beat the game. I wouldn't call it a 10 though.

Honestly what bothers me the most is GTAIV. That game should have gotten a 7.5

TropHouse

*the GTA company paid GS to give it a 10*.............

Avatar image for DarKre
DarKre

9529

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#6 DarKre
Member since 2003 • 9529 Posts
[QUOTE="TropHouse"]

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]Oh no! A bunch of good games came out and they got high scores! Agh! I don't know what to do!!!rragnaar

Oh no! An attack from an angry level 60 Otaku Troll!


Relax, I'm just joking.

But seriously, whats wrong with having good games? You seem to expect mediocrity from the industry...why?

Avatar image for rragnaar
rragnaar

27023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#7 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts

Mostly, I don't understand why anyone could be upset about a game receiving a good score if it is a good game. Halo 3, GTA4 and MGS4 are good games.


I don't see how the 540p issue really matters with Halo 3. It looks hi-res, and it doesn't have framerate issues, so who cares? As for GTA4, it isn't a huge step up from San Andreas, but it is fun, lengthy, and beautiful, as well as having online multiplayer for the first time. Sounds like a good deal to me. MGS4 for me personally was simply an incredible game, I don't see why you not going back and playing it again should have any effect on a reviewer's score.

It seems like people get upset when reviewers don't see eye to eye with them. I know that I experienced a bout of nerd rage when Gamespot gave Ratchet PS3 a 7.5... but honestly, what good does it do? Reviews are opinions with scores attached, and not everyone's opinion or score is going to match up with yours.

Avatar image for rragnaar
rragnaar

27023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#8 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts
[QUOTE="rragnaar"][QUOTE="TropHouse"]

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]Oh no! A bunch of good games came out and they got high scores! Agh! I don't know what to do!!!DarKre

Oh no! An attack from an angry level 60 Otaku Troll!


Relax, I'm just joking.

But seriously, whats wrong with having good games? You seem to expect mediocrity from the industry...why?


What? I don't expect mediocrity from the industry at all. Most of the games I'm excited about aren't the run of the mill big releases for the year. I'm more excited about Braid, PixelJunk Eden, Little Big Planet and Fable 2 than I am about Resistance 2 or Gears 2. I'm not sure where you would get the impression that I like mediocre games, or that I forgive developers that make bland garbage.
Avatar image for braindead_hero
braindead_hero

1174

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 17

User Lists: 0

#9 braindead_hero
Member since 2004 • 1174 Posts
[QUOTE="rragnaar"][QUOTE="TropHouse"]

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]Oh no! A bunch of good games came out and they got high scores! Agh! I don't know what to do!!!DarKre

Oh no! An attack from an angry level 60 Otaku Troll!


Relax, I'm just joking.

But seriously, whats wrong with having good games? You seem to expect mediocrity from the industry...why?

I don't think he wants mediocrity, just a review system that isn't basically giving award just for trying, I'm with him on this and I think a 10/10 should be for a game which needs absolutely NO improvements what-so-ever and the fact that some people seem to think 7 is a bad score, 7 is a good score. 1-3 = bad, 4-6= average, 7-9= good 10 = perfect, thats how scores should be, but at the moment it seems the only numbers being used are 1 or 10 (especially in user reviews)

Avatar image for Archangel3371
Archangel3371

44541

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#10 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 44541 Posts
I guess they're just great games that deserve it. Out of those three games I've played GTAIV and Halo 3. Personally I'd give GTAIV a 9.5 and Halo 3 a 10. GTAIV while it had some warts with how the online portion was handled was just a beautifully realised living and breathing city with a very engrossing storyline and characters that had great improvements to it's gameplay mechanics. Halo 3 may not have ran in true HD but who cares. It still looked great and played fantastically well. Online was and still is tremendous fun. Forge and video replays are simply superb additions especially the video replay feature which should be something other developers copy. The campaign was well done as well. It was pretty much the perfect culmination of the Halo trilogy while still leaving fans with the prospect of further adventures.
Avatar image for TropHouse
TropHouse

42

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11 TropHouse
Member since 2008 • 42 Posts

Literally all GTA IV introduced was online. Would you like me to list all the things they've removed since san andreas? The storyline was better, but jeezus, it's not like it was awesome to the level of MGSIV's storyline. I'm not saying MGSIV was a bad game either, I played through once and haven't tried online yet but it was definitely $60 well spent. I just don't think either game deserves a 10. Here's what I think their scores should have been:
GTAIV: 8.0-8.7
MGSIV: 8.5-9.5

Neither deserves a 10 and you know it. Honestly, the only game I've ever played that I think should have a ten is super mario world on the SNES. God that game was badass! You could EASILY go back today and play the whole game through.

Avatar image for soren008
soren008

2190

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#12 soren008
Member since 2008 • 2190 Posts

Money. That's all.

GTA4 & Halo3 & MGS4 are far from masterpieces

Also I think reviewers can be a little sheepish, and swept along with the hype ...

Avatar image for rragnaar
rragnaar

27023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#13 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts

Neither deserves a 10 and you know it.

TropHouse

Speak for yourself. There isn't much objective truth to be found regarding games. MGS4 deserved a 10 from me, which is why I rated it as such. The point I'm trying to make is that giving a game a score isn't an exact science. Not every gamer is going to agree with the score that a game gets. You are acting like your opinion of these games is the only true opinion of the games, which is a laughable position to take.

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#14 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

I'm mainly speaking of grand theft auto IV here but what the hell?
Can anyone tell me what's so great about halo 3 as opposed to 1 and 2? The game doesn't even run in full HD. 540p. Proven. Will provide link.
GTAIV "unimproved" a whole bunch of its features since san andreas. Haven't played it since I beat the game and that's a disappointment.
Metal Gear Solid 4. Great game... I think? I loved it but for some reason I haven't touched it since I beat the game. I wouldn't call it a 10 though.

Honestly what bothers me the most is GTAIV. That game should have gotten a 7.5

TropHouse

That comment pretty much invalidates your already flimsy argument.

GTAIV is a great evolution of the series but unfortunately, some of you "gamers" equate quantity with quality instead of recognizing how great the core mechanics actually are. GTAIV was a complete overhaul of the GTA paradigm but I guess you'd rather have lots of crappy, worthless side activities contained in a clunky shooter.

And calling Halo 3 overrated because it isn't "true HD" is ridiculous. I'm not even a Halo fanboy and I still think that's one of the lamest things I've read on these boards.

Oh, and MGS4 solid was brilliant.

Out of curiosity, what game would you rank a TEN?

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

Money. That's all.

GTA4 & Halo3 & MGS4 are far from masterpieces

Also I think reviewers can be a little sheepish, and swept along with the hype ...

soren008

Oh please, if anybody is being a sheep, it's you.

The backlash against both of these games was inevitable because people think they are being intellectual and superior by denouncing popular and critically acclaimed games.

I knew what the responses of people like were going to be before you even posted them.

Avatar image for soren008
soren008

2190

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16 soren008
Member since 2008 • 2190 Posts

Out of curiosity, what game would you rank a TEN?

Grammaton-Cleric

Mafia ... only one I can think of

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#17 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

*the GTA company paid GS to give it a 10*.............

xmen1414

Wow, you seem really informed. Care to provide some evidence?

By the way, Sherlock, the name of the "GTA company" is Rockstar.

Avatar image for soren008
soren008

2190

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18 soren008
Member since 2008 • 2190 Posts
[QUOTE="soren008"]

Money. That's all.

GTA4 & Halo3 & MGS4 are far from masterpieces

Also I think reviewers can be a little sheepish, and swept along with the hype ...

Grammaton-Cleric

Oh please, if anybody is being a sheep, it's you.

The backlash against both of these games was inevitable because people think they are being intellectual and superior by denouncing popular and critically acclaimed games.

I knew what the responses of people like were going to be before you even posted them.

:lol: Believe me I have no desire to appear intellectual talking about video games for you little fellow

I do not denouce a game simply becuase of its popularity, I have an opinion and a mind ...

I don't disagree for the sake of disagreeing , so stop making assumptions ;)

for the record I loved GTA4 ...

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#19 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Out of curiosity, what game would you rank a TEN?

soren008

Mafia ... only one I can think of

That's a pretty random choice, and a far from perfect game.

Which is the point: no game is technically perfect but certain games get the score because they are pretty damn close.

MGS4 and GTAIV earned those scores and I have yet to read a coherent reason why they should not.

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#20 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="soren008"]

Money. That's all.

GTA4 & Halo3 & MGS4 are far from masterpieces

Also I think reviewers can be a little sheepish, and swept along with the hype ...

soren008

Oh please, if anybody is being a sheep, it's you.

The backlash against both of these games was inevitable because people think they are being intellectual and superior by denouncing popular and critically acclaimed games.

I knew what the responses of people like were going to be before you even posted them.

:lol: Believe me I have no desire to appear intellectual talking about video games for you little fellow

I do not denouce a game simply becuase of its popularity, I have an opinion and a mind ...

I don't disagree for the sake of disagreeing , so stop making assumptions ;)

for the record I loved GTA4 ...

Well, your initial statement was nothing more than a sweeping assumption, so why not try to be a little more consistent?

And no, you don't want to wax intellectual with me. For that you'll need more than a few credits at your local community college and a pocket thesaurus.

Avatar image for soren008
soren008

2190

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21 soren008
Member since 2008 • 2190 Posts
[QUOTE="soren008"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="soren008"]

Money. That's all.

GTA4 & Halo3 & MGS4 are far from masterpieces

Also I think reviewers can be a little sheepish, and swept along with the hype ...

Grammaton-Cleric

Oh please, if anybody is being a sheep, it's you.

The backlash against both of these games was inevitable because people think they are being intellectual and superior by denouncing popular and critically acclaimed games.

I knew what the responses of people like were going to be before you even posted them.

:lol: Believe me I have no desire to appear intellectual talking about video games for you little fellow

I do not denouce a game simply becuase of its popularity, I have an opinion and a mind ...

I don't disagree for the sake of disagreeing , so stop making assumptions ;)

for the record I loved GTA4 ...

Well, your initial statement was nothing more than a sweeping assumption, so why not try to be a little more consistent?

And no, you don't want to wax intellectual with me. For that you'll need more than a few credits at your local community college and a pocket thesaurus.

The "little fella" was a nice touch however. I love it when insects try to be lions on the net.

I don't know how to react to that ... I can only say you make me cringe

Avatar image for DarKre
DarKre

9529

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#22 DarKre
Member since 2003 • 9529 Posts
[QUOTE="DarKre"][QUOTE="rragnaar"][QUOTE="TropHouse"]

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]Oh no! A bunch of good games came out and they got high scores! Agh! I don't know what to do!!!rragnaar

Oh no! An attack from an angry level 60 Otaku Troll!


Relax, I'm just joking.

But seriously, whats wrong with having good games? You seem to expect mediocrity from the industry...why?


What? I don't expect mediocrity from the industry at all. Most of the games I'm excited about aren't the run of the mill big releases for the year. I'm more excited about Braid, PixelJunk Eden, Little Big Planet and Fable 2 than I am about Resistance 2 or Gears 2. I'm not sure where you would get the impression that I like mediocre games, or that I forgive developers that make bland garbage.

Not you pal..the OP

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#23 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

Oh no! A bunch of good games came out and they got high scores! Agh! I don't know what to do!!!rragnaar

Really though, that is the crux to this whole insipid issue.

If the game that scores a ten isn't the game they wanted to score a ten, then it's overrated.

Like you touched upon in your other posts, these scores are ultimately opinions but for whatever reason certain gamers experience rectal burning when a game scores higher or lower than they think it should. Granted, some scores really are nonsense, but even then I really don't see the point in bemoaning the issue.

What really grates me however, is the notion that everybody is biased, swept up by hype, or wrong. Both MGS4 and GTAIV have earned some of the best scores in recent memory and I really don't think every critic, site and magazine has been bought off or is deluded. The people who come in here complaining about these games are the same type of people who yell incessantly that The Dark Knight is overrated despite massive critical and consumer success to the contrary.

Frankly, there is an element of narcissism in many of these people because by being a contrarian they grab attention and they also feel like their viewpoint is the only valid one. There have been times when I certainly felt at odds with the consensus but I also try and understand that my viewpoint doesn't affect the entire world.

Avatar image for McManus107
McManus107

6356

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#24 McManus107
Member since 2008 • 6356 Posts
I want the old review system back on gamespot
Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#25 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="soren008"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="soren008"]

Money. That's all.

GTA4 & Halo3 & MGS4 are far from masterpieces

Also I think reviewers can be a little sheepish, and swept along with the hype ...

soren008

Oh please, if anybody is being a sheep, it's you.

The backlash against both of these games was inevitable because people think they are being intellectual and superior by denouncing popular and critically acclaimed games.

I knew what the responses of people like were going to be before you even posted them.

:lol: Believe me I have no desire to appear intellectual talking about video games for you little fellow

I do not denouce a game simply becuase of its popularity, I have an opinion and a mind ...

I don't disagree for the sake of disagreeing , so stop making assumptions ;)

for the record I loved GTA4 ...

Well, your initial statement was nothing more than a sweeping assumption, so why not try to be a little more consistent?

And no, you don't want to wax intellectual with me. For that you'll need more than a few credits at your local community college and a pocket thesaurus.

The "little fella" was a nice touch however. I love it when insects try to be lions on the net.

I don't know how to react to that ... I can only say you make me cringe

Facial expressions and grunts seem to be about your limit. You've yet to address the issue at hand and you certainly don't have a response to anything I've posted. You accuse other people of being sheep yet you illustrates a similar pattern of thought and do so with a limited vocabulary, which is ironic considering you insulted my intelligence.

If you want to be nasty, snarky and curt, go elsewhere. This place is for serious discussions of the medium, not childish prattle.

Avatar image for ReddestSkies
ReddestSkies

4087

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#26 ReddestSkies
Member since 2005 • 4087 Posts

Gaming scores have little to do with actual quality. They're about mass appeal. GTA has high mass appeal, so it gets high scores again and again. Fire Pro Wrestling Returns has very low mass appeal, so it gets a relatively low score despite its high quality. Professor Fizzwizzle has 0 hype and low mass appeal, so it doesn't even get a review.

"Professional reviewers" are there to tell you if you're likely to enjoy a game or not (direct function of mass appeal), period. They have no other purpose. They are not there to provide deep information about games, to judge them or to rank them.

Avatar image for 11Marcel
11Marcel

7241

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#27 11Marcel
Member since 2004 • 7241 Posts
I'm seriously hoping the people saying GTA 4 wasn't a really big step forward were joking. Otherwise... what were you thinking? Pretty much every game mechanic has been improved. Shooting is ten times better, with great physics, where people stumble if you shoot them in the leg, lose their gun if you shoot their arm etc. Driving is much better, and you feel the weight of the cars much better. Police chases have gotten a whole lot better and more realistic. I could go on forever. Point is, the fact that a whole lot of minigames got lost, you can't pilot planes anymore and the map is smaller doesn't mean it's a step backwards. Most franchises out there can only dream to make a big step like that of GTA san andreas to GTA 4.
Avatar image for Shame-usBlackley
Shame-usBlackley

18266

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 0

#28 Shame-usBlackley
Member since 2002 • 18266 Posts

I'm seriously hoping the people saying GTA 4 wasn't a really big step forward were joking. Otherwise... what were you thinking? Pretty much every game mechanic has been improved. Shooting is ten times better, with great physics, where people stumble if you shoot them in the leg, lose their gun if you shoot their arm etc. Driving is much better, and you feel the weight of the cars much better. Police chases have gotten a whole lot better and more realistic. I could go on forever. Point is, the fact that a whole lot of minigames got lost, you can't pilot planes anymore and the map is smaller doesn't mean it's a step backwards. Most franchises out there can only dream to make a big step like that of GTA san andreas to GTA 4. 11Marcel

I look at it this way:

What other sandbox game not named GTA even approaches the brilliance of GTA?

There are none. There have been some better contenders in recent years, but as far as I'm concerned, if I was going to buy one sandbox game, there's only one option on the market. It's not even close. People are always ready to criticize Rockstar for GTA (and that's fair, the game ISN'T perfect), but when you consider the dearth of options out there coupled with how many titles have tried (and failed) to reach the benchmark of GTA, it sort of paints it in a different light.

I work in sales, and one time a new employee was griping about how hard selling was. I said to him, "If this **** were easy, everyone would be doing it." GTA is very much the same.

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#29 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

Gaming scores have little to do with actual quality. They're about mass appeal. GTA has high mass appeal, so it gets high scores again and again. Fire Pro Wrestling Returns has very low mass appeal, so it gets a relatively low score despite its high quality. Professor Fizzwizzle has 0 hype and low mass appeal, so it doesn't even get a review.

ReddestSkies

The problem with this theory is that I see original franchises and new IP's score very well all the time and I've also seen larger franchises get lower scores when a weak entry is released. I do agree with you that some games have a much higher level of exposure but I've seen plenty of original games get equal amounts of praise despite being released below the radar.

Fire Pro Wrestling Returns is an interesting game to bring into this discussion because in many ways, it actually invalidates your theory. The game was released as a budget title with literally no promotion (it took me weeks to find a copy at a store) but most of the reviews for the game were actually pretty positive. Several reviewers actually called it the best wrestling game on the market and it generally received better scores than the most recent Smackdown game.

Then you have games like No More Heroes, which received generally favorable reviews, and that game is about as niche as they come. Other recent games to score well critically despite having a low level of exposure are God Hand, Okami, N+, Red Star and Odin Sphere.

Personally, I just don't see the correlation between exposure and review scores. For example, I'm expecting the upcoming Too Human to take a pretty severe beating critically in the coming months, and that game has been getting coverage for years.

Sorry, but I can't recall ever hearing of Professor Fizzwizzle. I'd give the game a 10 based on the title alone however.

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#30 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

I look at it this way:

What other sandbox game not named GTA even approaches the brilliance of GTA?

There are none. There have been some better contenders in recent years, but as far as I'm concerned, if I was going to buy one sandbox game, there's only one option on the market. It's not even close. People are always ready to criticize Rockstar for GTA (and that's fair, the game ISN'T perfect), but when you consider the dearth of options out there coupled with how many titles have tried (and failed) to reach the benchmark of GTA, it sort of paints it in a different light.

I work in sales, and one time a new employee was griping about how hard selling was. I said to him, "If this **** were easy, everyone would be doing it." GTA is very much the same.

Shame-usBlackley

Awesome post and I agree completely.

At its core, GTAIV is simply amazing and everything else looks to be playing catch-up again. Saint's Row 2 is looking better than it did a few months ago but even that seems more like a updated GTA:SA.

I also agree that people seem to always have their finger on the trigger when it comes to Rockstar and that mystifies me, personally. It's their dedication to quality and innovation that is forcing other developers to raise the bar for sandbox games.

Avatar image for rragnaar
rragnaar

27023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#31 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]Oh no! A bunch of good games came out and they got high scores! Agh! I don't know what to do!!!Grammaton-Cleric

Really though, that is the crux to this whole insipid issue.

If the game that scores a ten isn't the game they wanted to score a ten, then it's overrated.

Like you touched upon in your other posts, these scores are ultimately opinions but for whatever reason certain gamers experience rectal burning when a game scores higher or lower than they think it should. Granted, some scores really are nonsense, but even then I really don't see the point in bemoaning the issue.

What really grates me however, is the notion that everybody is biased, swept up by hype, or wrong. Both MGS4 and GTAIV have earned some of the best scores in recent memory and I really don't think every critic, site and magazine has been bought off or is deluded. The people who come in here complaining about these games are the same type of people who yell incessantly that The Dark Knight is overrated despite massive critical and consumer success to the contrary.

Frankly, there is an element of narcissism in many of these people because by being a contrarian they grab attention and they also feel like their viewpoint is the only valid one. There have been times when I certainly felt at odds with the consensus but I also try and understand that my viewpoint doesn't affect the entire world.

The strangest thing for me, and I'm guilty of it on some level, is that people seem to think that the score a game gets is a tangible thing that becomes a part of a game. "That game is a 10." What kind of statement is that? Games exist outside of the scores they are given, and just because some guy gave it a score, that doesn't mean that the game's intrinsic value went up or down. I've never let the number of thumbs up, or stars, a movie was given effect my opinion of that movie, and I don't think I've ever said "That was a 5 star movie".

I think people put too much emphasis on scores. MGS4 isn't a 10, and it isn't any other number, it is a game.

Avatar image for ReddestSkies
ReddestSkies

4087

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#32 ReddestSkies
Member since 2005 • 4087 Posts
[QUOTE="ReddestSkies"]

Gaming scores have little to do with actual quality. They're about mass appeal. GTA has high mass appeal, so it gets high scores again and again. Fire Pro Wrestling Returns has very low mass appeal, so it gets a relatively low score despite its high quality. Professor Fizzwizzle has 0 hype and low mass appeal, so it doesn't even get a review.

Grammaton-Cleric

The problem with this theory is that I see original franchises and new IP's score very well all the time and I've also seen larger franchises get lower scores when a weak entry is released. I do agree with you that some games have a much higher level of exposure but I've seen plenty of original games get equal amounts of praise despite being released below the radar.

Fire Pro Wrestling Returns is an interesting game to bring into this discussion because in many ways, it actually invalidates your theory. The game was released as a budget title with literally no promotion (it took me weeks to find a copy at a store) but most of the reviews for the game were actually pretty positive. Several reviewers actually called it the best wrestling game on the market and it generally received better scores than the most recent Smackdown game.

Then you have games like No More Heroes, which received generally favorable reviews, and that game is about as niche as they come. Other recent games to score well critically despite having a low level of exposure are God Hand, Okami, N+, Red Star and Odin Sphere.

Personally, I just don't see the correlation between exposure and quality. For example, I'm expecting the upcoming Too Human to take a pretty severe beating critically in the coming months, and that game has been getting coverage for years.

Sorry, but I can't recall ever hearing of Professor Fizzwizzle. I'd give the game a 10 based on the title alone however.

The recent Smackdown games are nearly unplayable. It's not very hard to outscore that type of trash, whether the scoring system is based on quality, mass appeal or number of fairies present in the game. And it still took professional reviewers several insanely horrible Smackdown games before they stopped dishing out 9+ to every new entry.

You missed my point and confused hype and mass appeal. Plenty of new franchises have tons of mass appeal.

Professor Fizzwizzle is an amazing puzzle game that got completely ignored by mainstream gaming publications.

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#33 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

The strangest thing for me, and I'm guilty of it on some level, is that people seem to think that the score a game gets is a tangible thing that becomes a part of a game. "That game is a 10." What kind of statement is that? Games exist outside of the scores they are given, and just because some guy gave it a score, that doesn't mean that the game's intrinsic value went up or down. I've never let the number of thumbs up, or stars, a movie was given effect my opinion of that movie, and I don't think I've ever said "That was a 5 star movie".

I think people put too much emphasis on scores. MGS4 isn't a 10, and it isn't any other number, it is a game.

rragnaar

Firstly, I appreciate your honesty, because I too have placed too much emphasis on scores in the past. Even now, a part of me revels in the commercial and critical success of The Dark Knight, because as humans, we seek validation for our opinions. Like you stated however, I shouldn't need that validation because the only thing that matters is how I personally feel about the film.

To me personally, game criticism in general and numerical scores in particular have become almost crass in their relation to gauging quality. There are so many variables and nuances that can affect a person's enjoyment of a game, which is why I don't understand why people place such importance on scores and reviews. Last year, one of my absolute favorite games was THQ's Conan, and that game averaged scores of 7 to 7.5. More recently, Army of One became an evening tradition with my brother and me; we played through it and had an absolute blast. GS scored it a 6.5.

Fun and enjoyment are not universally quantifiable but I do think the quality of both MGS4 and GTAIV should be apparent to anybody with a working knowledge of this medium, regardless if they actually love the games. Again, much of this boils down to ego and nothing more.

Avatar image for XanderKage
XanderKage

8956

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 0

#34 XanderKage
Member since 2006 • 8956 Posts
Well, games getting high scores are generally good. Go figure. If you don't like it, it doen't mean it's bad. Maybe you just have lousy taste.
Avatar image for SteelAttack
SteelAttack

10520

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#35 SteelAttack
Member since 2005 • 10520 Posts

I think people put too much emphasis on scores.

rragnaar

This. This ****ing nails it.

I mean, it's not like knowing that a game got x or y score will have any effect on your enjoyment of said game.

Avatar image for haemorrhagiae
haemorrhagiae

617

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#36 haemorrhagiae
Member since 2008 • 617 Posts
Reviewers got soft in recent years.That is because of hype and games itself.
Avatar image for XanderKage
XanderKage

8956

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 0

#37 XanderKage
Member since 2006 • 8956 Posts
I dunno, I usually find that GS underscores games...
Avatar image for rragnaar
rragnaar

27023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#38 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts
[QUOTE="rragnaar"]

I think people put too much emphasis on scores.

SteelAttack

This. This ****ing nails it.

I mean, it's not like knowing that a game got x or y score will have any effect on your enjoyment of said game.


The sad part is that most folks don't read reviews, as Grammaton said, I think they click on a review to see the score it got so that they can find out whether their opinion is validated or not. Isn't it sad that most of the time when a thread pops up on the forums complaining about a review, it is almost always regarding the score? There are very few times when I see someone start a thread complaining about what a reviewer has actually said.

I could understand being upset if a game's review score led someone to buy a game that they didn't enjoy, but I have a feeling that isn't what this thread is about. The gaming community seems to be caught up in a meta-game involving scores and critical reception. It seems like most folks have more fun boasting about how many 'AAA' games their system has than they do actually playing those games. I'm not implying that the thread creator was motivated by petty system wars garbage, rather I think he might be part of the other group of folks who enjoy arguing about whether or not a game is overrated.

In either case, I don't understand the need to waste mental energy hating on something when you could be playing games and having fun.

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#39 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="ReddestSkies"]

Gaming scores have little to do with actual quality. They're about mass appeal. GTA has high mass appeal, so it gets high scores again and again. Fire Pro Wrestling Returns has very low mass appeal, so it gets a relatively low score despite its high quality. Professor Fizzwizzle has 0 hype and low mass appeal, so it doesn't even get a review.

ReddestSkies

The problem with this theory is that I see original franchises and new IP's score very well all the time and I've also seen larger franchises get lower scores when a weak entry is released. I do agree with you that some games have a much higher level of exposure but I've seen plenty of original games get equal amounts of praise despite being released below the radar.

Fire Pro Wrestling Returns is an interesting game to bring into this discussion because in many ways, it actually invalidates your theory. The game was released as a budget title with literally no promotion (it took me weeks to find a copy at a store) but most of the reviews for the game were actually pretty positive. Several reviewers actually called it the best wrestling game on the market and it generally received better scores than the most recent Smackdown game.

Then you have games like No More Heroes, which received generally favorable reviews, and that game is about as niche as they come. Other recent games to score well critically despite having a low level of exposure are God Hand, Okami, N+, Red Star and Odin Sphere.

Personally, I just don't see the correlation between exposure and quality. For example, I'm expecting the upcoming Too Human to take a pretty severe beating critically in the coming months, and that game has been getting coverage for years.

Sorry, but I can't recall ever hearing of Professor Fizzwizzle. I'd give the game a 10 based on the title alone however.

The recent Smackdown games are nearly unplayable. It's not very hard to outscore that type of trash, whether the scoring system is based on quality, mass appeal or number of fairies present in the game. And it still took professional reviewers several insanely horrible Smackdown games before they stopped dishing out 9+ to every new entry.

You missed my point and confused hype and mass appeal. Plenty of new franchises have tons of mass appeal.

Professor Fizzwizzle is an amazing puzzle game that got completely ignored by mainstream gaming publications.

Perhaps you should better define what you consider mass appeal because that term can mean any number of things, from accessibility in the casual market to a wide spectrum of exposure through the media and advertisements.

As to Smakcdown, it's been a very good franchise up until the last few years and even then, calling it "trash" is hyperbolic and inaccurate. I own Fire Pro wrestling Returns and frankly, beyond the insane level of customization, the core mechanics are something out of the early 90's. It's a Japanese niche franchise that was released over here at 14.99 at the end of the PS2's lifecycle and the game looks and plays like something on the Super Nes. It doesn't deserve AAA scores.

Avatar image for rragnaar
rragnaar

27023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#40 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts
I want the old review system back on gamespotMcManus107

I'm not picking on you, but, can you tell me the difference between a game that gets an 8.9 and a game that gets a 9.0?
Avatar image for XanderKage
XanderKage

8956

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 0

#41 XanderKage
Member since 2006 • 8956 Posts
Life is in the details, man. Sometimes .1 can make all the difference. Especially to make a point between 8.9 and a 9.1 game.Or a 8.8 and a 9.2 games. Both good, but the other is better. And since like some one said, no one reads reviews, this could mean a lot. Well, not a lot, but still..
Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#42 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

Life is in the details, man. Sometimes .1 can make all the difference. Especially to make a point between 8.9 and a 9.1 game.Both good, but the other is better. And since like some one said, no one reads reviews, this could mean a lot. Well, not a lot, but still..XanderKage

I'm sorry, but that doesn't really answer his question.

Is a game that scores a 9.1 really better than a game that scores .2 lower on a numerical scale?

I just don't see the difference, all things considered.

And the fact that people don't actually read the texts of the reviews is a sad commentary on where society is headed.

Avatar image for XanderKage
XanderKage

8956

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 0

#43 XanderKage
Member since 2006 • 8956 Posts

I'm sorry, but that doesn't really answer his question.

Is a game that scores a 9.1 really better than a game that scores .2 lower on a numerical scale?

I just don't see the difference, all things considered.

And the fact that people don't actually read the texts of the reviews is a sad commentary on where society is headed.

Grammaton-Cleric

You've got a point on where the society is heading.. Anyway, the X.0/X.5 rating thing basically can equalize two games that ca be as fr as 5 points apart... I know, the review is an opinion, and in most cases there's no difference between a 8.9 and 9.1. Butlike I said - details. Heck, details is what make a good game truly great. Plus I honestly believe there's no such thing a perfect game, so there can't be a 10. Not even GTA IV. 9.9, yes, but not 10.

Avatar image for rragnaar
rragnaar

27023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#44 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't really answer his question.

Is a game that scores a 9.1 really better than a game that scores .2 lower on a numerical scale?

I just don't see the difference, all things considered.

And the fact that people don't actually read the texts of the reviews is a sad commentary on where society is headed.

XanderKage

You've got a point on where the society is heading.. Anyway, the X.0/X.5 rating thing basically can equalize two games that ca be as fr as 5 points apart... I know, the review is an opinion, and in most cases there's no difference between a 8.9 and 9.1. Butlike I said - details. Heck, details is what make a good game truly great. Plus I honestly believe there's no such thing a perfect game, so there can't be a 10. Not even GTA IV. 9.9, yes, but not 10.


The current scale says that a game that scores a 10 is "prime". Prime doesn't mean perfect, it just means "really freaking good". Besides that, if 10 doesn't mean perfect, it is simply the highest score a game can receive. If you then go further and say that no game deserves a 10, then 9.9 becomes the new 10, and we are right back where we started, and people will be upset when a game scores a 9.9, saying that it should have scored a 9.8. When you step back and look at it, arguing over tenths of a point is fruitless.
Avatar image for XanderKage
XanderKage

8956

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 0

#45 XanderKage
Member since 2006 • 8956 Posts

Well, no one argued about tenth of points when the ratings were X.X But we are arguing now. So the change wasn't a good one. Besides, I do agree that it doesn't matter if the game got a 8.9 or a 9.1. All I'm saying is it woulb be nicer to have a X.X system back. At least then you have the option to give the game a 8.9 instead of a 9.0. And it's always nice to have the option.

Avatar image for ReddestSkies
ReddestSkies

4087

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#46 ReddestSkies
Member since 2005 • 4087 Posts
[QUOTE="ReddestSkies"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="ReddestSkies"]

Gaming scores have little to do with actual quality. They're about mass appeal. GTA has high mass appeal, so it gets high scores again and again. Fire Pro Wrestling Returns has very low mass appeal, so it gets a relatively low score despite its high quality. Professor Fizzwizzle has 0 hype and low mass appeal, so it doesn't even get a review.

Grammaton-Cleric

The problem with this theory is that I see original franchises and new IP's score very well all the time and I've also seen larger franchises get lower scores when a weak entry is released. I do agree with you that some games have a much higher level of exposure but I've seen plenty of original games get equal amounts of praise despite being released below the radar.

Fire Pro Wrestling Returns is an interesting game to bring into this discussion because in many ways, it actually invalidates your theory. The game was released as a budget title with literally no promotion (it took me weeks to find a copy at a store) but most of the reviews for the game were actually pretty positive. Several reviewers actually called it the best wrestling game on the market and it generally received better scores than the most recent Smackdown game.

Then you have games like No More Heroes, which received generally favorable reviews, and that game is about as niche as they come. Other recent games to score well critically despite having a low level of exposure are God Hand, Okami, N+, Red Star and Odin Sphere.

Personally, I just don't see the correlation between exposure and quality. For example, I'm expecting the upcoming Too Human to take a pretty severe beating critically in the coming months, and that game has been getting coverage for years.

Sorry, but I can't recall ever hearing of Professor Fizzwizzle. I'd give the game a 10 based on the title alone however.

The recent Smackdown games are nearly unplayable. It's not very hard to outscore that type of trash, whether the scoring system is based on quality, mass appeal or number of fairies present in the game. And it still took professional reviewers several insanely horrible Smackdown games before they stopped dishing out 9+ to every new entry.

You missed my point and confused hype and mass appeal. Plenty of new franchises have tons of mass appeal.

Professor Fizzwizzle is an amazing puzzle game that got completely ignored by mainstream gaming publications.

Perhaps you should better define what you consider mass appeal because that term can mean any number of things, from accessibility in the casual market to a wide spectrum of exposure through the media and advertisements.

As to Smakcdown, it's been a very good franchise up until the last few years and even then, calling it "trash" is hyperbolic and inaccurate. I own Fire Pro wrestling Returns and frankly, beyond the insane level of customization, the core mechanics are something out of the early 90's. It's a Japanese niche franchise that was released over here at 14.99 at the end of the PS2's lifecycle and the game looks and plays like something on the Super Nes. It doesn't deserve AAA scores.

"Mass appeal" = the ability to appeal to a lot of different people.

Every Smackdown game has been inherently broken reversal and finisher-fests. The latest ones are completely unplayable though. Can Shawn Michaels punch HHH in the latest one?

What's wrong with core mechanics out of the early 90s? Fire Pro Wrestling Returns is a balanced, skill-based game that beautifully recreates the flow of a wrestling match. If it allowed for more striking, it would pretty much be perfect.

Avatar image for Cube_of_MooN
Cube_of_MooN

9286

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 14

User Lists: 0

#47 Cube_of_MooN
Member since 2005 • 9286 Posts
It is not like these games are bad or snything. I think GTA IV deserved a 8.5, but whatever, it is just a score.
Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#48 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

"Mass appeal" = the ability to appeal to a lot of different people.

Every Smackdown game has been inherently broken reversal and finisher-fests. The latest ones are completely unplayable though. Can Shawn Michaels punch HHH in the latest one?

What's wrong with core mechanics out of the early 90s? Fire Pro Wrestling Returns is a balanced, skill-based game that beautifully recreates the flow of a wrestling match. If it allowed for more striking, it would pretty much be perfect.

ReddestSkies

I've got no problems with your definition of mass appeal, but that definition can be applied pretty liberally. It can also shift based on changes in trends and the popularity of certain genres. There was a time when Street Fighter and fighting games in general had mass appeal but in my estimation, that mass appeal has greatly decreased. Much of what defines mass appeal is simply exposure. GTAIV isn't an easy game by any means but I agree that it has mass appeal for a number of reasons. However, I still don't see a correlation between that appeal and high review scores. GTAIV is an expansive, compelling and well-made game, which is why most critics were so enamored with it. If the game had played like True Crime, I don't think GTAIV would have scored so many outstanding reviews, mass appeal or not.

As to Smackdown being inherently unbroken, I disagree. Some of the earlier PS2 versions were incredibly well made and were also very balanced and skill based. I think broken is a fair adjective to describe the last three entries of the series but as a whole it's been a solid franchise.

Lastly, Fire Pro Wrestling doesn't play nearly as well as you claim, at least in my personal estimation. The auto grappling mechanic feels random and the hit detection is less than stellar, even for what is essentially a 2D fighter. I like the game but I actually think the GS review was pretty spot on because the game play really isn't that great, even taking into account its retro sensibilities. My point wasn't to knock older game mechanics either because frankly, I think some of the old SNES WWF games actually played better than Fire Pro Wrestling Returns.

Avatar image for Grammaton-Cleric
Grammaton-Cleric

7515

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#49 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't really answer his question.

Is a game that scores a 9.1 really better than a game that scores .2 lower on a numerical scale?

I just don't see the difference, all things considered.

And the fact that people don't actually read the texts of the reviews is a sad commentary on where society is headed.

XanderKage

You've got a point on where the society is heading.. Anyway, the X.0/X.5 rating thing basically can equalize two games that ca be as fr as 5 points apart... I know, the review is an opinion, and in most cases there's no difference between a 8.9 and 9.1. Butlike I said - details. Heck, details is what make a good game truly great. Plus I honestly believe there's no such thing a perfect game, so there can't be a 10. Not even GTA IV. 9.9, yes, but not 10.

If there can never be a ten, why even have a numerical scale at all? If nothing can ever reach the apex of a critical scale then the rubric itself becomes misleading and pointless.

Avatar image for ReddestSkies
ReddestSkies

4087

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#50 ReddestSkies
Member since 2005 • 4087 Posts
[QUOTE="ReddestSkies"]

"Mass appeal" = the ability to appeal to a lot of different people.

Every Smackdown game has been inherently broken reversal and finisher-fests. The latest ones are completely unplayable though. Can Shawn Michaels punch HHH in the latest one?

What's wrong with core mechanics out of the early 90s? Fire Pro Wrestling Returns is a balanced, skill-based game that beautifully recreates the flow of a wrestling match. If it allowed for more striking, it would pretty much be perfect.

Grammaton-Cleric

I've got no problems with your definition of mass appeal, but that definition can be applied pretty liberally. It can also shift based on changes in trends and the popularity of certain genres. There was a time when Street Fighter and fighting games in general had mass appeal but in my estimation, that mass appeal has greatly decreased. Much of what defines mass appeal is simply exposure. GTAIV isn't an easy game by any means but I agree that it has mass appeal for a number of reasons. However, I still don't see a correlation between that appeal and high review scores. GTAIV is an expansive, compelling and well-made game, which is why most critics were so enamored with it. If the game had played like True Crime, I don't think GTAIV would have scored so many outstanding reviews, mass appeal or not.

As to Smackdown being inherently unbroken, I disagree. Some of the earlier PS2 versions were incredibly well made and were also very balanced and skill based. I think broken is a fair adjective to describe the last three entries of the series but as a whole it's been a solid franchise.

Lastly, Fire Pro Wrestling doesn't play nearly as well as you claim, at least in my personal estimation. The auto grappling mechanic feels random and the hit detection is less than stellar, even for what is essentially a 2D fighter. I like the game but I actually think the GS review was pretty spot on because the game play really isn't that great, even taking into account its retro sensibilities. My point wasn't to knock older game mechanics either because frankly, I think some of the old SNES WWF games actually played better than Fire Pro Wrestling Returns.

It's easier to see how mass appeal affects game reviews by looking at how a lack of mass appeal pretty much always means receiving a lower score. A lot of PC games get lower scores for being hardware-demanding. How many hard and/or complex games ever score higher than, say, 8.5? Of course games that appeal to a lot of people will be good more often than not. The thing is, though, that video game reviews are there to tell the reader if he is likely to enjoy a game or not. A game that scores 10 is not necessarily of higher quality than a game that scores 7.

The core gameplay of Smackdown games has always been to spam power moves and finishers while reversing every other power move and finisher of your opponent. Add 20 meters, button mashing and useless mini-games, and you have some really bad wrestling games. Don't get me started on moves that can't be reversed, irrealistic movesets, bad collision detection (Smackdown relies heavily on gimmick matches; it is ridiculous that it couldn't have at least Day of Reckoning-level collision detection), etc.

Fire Pro's auto-grappling works really, really well. The fact that it is based on timing and momentum makes superb wrestling matches possible. Yes, the hitboxes are small, but that's more of a design decision than anything. Japanese wrestling isn't all that much about brawling. It can't be compared to other 2D fighters tbh. Fire Pro compels the player to skillfully create interesting wrestling matches.