The curse of Metroid and Castlevania

Here is a bad gameplay mechanic: backtracking.

There is one thing I don’t like about Wonderboy in Monster World. The final level in the castle. You are stuck going backwards and forwards which can be so long you give up, which is how I left that game 25 years ago. But I have completed it, you just need the bell which rings when you ago the right way.

Metroid is an NES game where the dungeons are non-linear. So you have to go back the way you came sometimes. That’s fine. Until you get lost.

This gameplay design is not bad in itself, but without an arrow and the larger the level, the more chance of getting lost and wasting time, getting bored and frustrated. Add a random level generator and the chances of becoming lost and for longer, increase. I have seen footage of Symphony of the Night and it looks convoluted and simplistic.

This game looks very repetitive. The game is 6 hours long if you don't get lost. For me, that equates to I will probably never finish it. Not out of the inability but the unwillingness to subject myself to the tedium of the undertaking.

Indy game designers are just as culpable as the AAA’s of jumping on trends and disseminating poorly thought through or executed gameplay styles throughout the industry, bombarding the market with clones.

It’s macabre, it rogue-lite/like, it’s metroid-vania, it’s retro, it’s 16-bit. It could be any one of hundreds if not thousands of games in the past 8 years.

So I get the feeling indy game devs are more devs than designers as I’m seeing very little by way of innovation or consideration of “is this gameplay element relevant or suitable to use in my game?” but more “How do I make a game in a popular style which is selling right now?”

This blog, the latest in my series of pointing out the obvious. I write it last night but had to throw it out as I just saw this video which covers the same point so I don’t want to be accused of plagiarism.

This blog was actually inspired by watching someone playing Axiom Verge on Vita, having loads of fun. Then exactly no fun, so I thought it was time to have a go at indy devs for being, on the whole, even lazier than AAA devs.

Personally I like "Metroidvania" games, and what that really equates to is hiding things you can't access until later on in early areas.

You take mental note of weird things as you play, and once you realize something you've obtained can help you reach it, it's like, "Oh yeah! Where do I remember seeing those things?"

It pays to be aware of things like that, usually it hides power-ups, rare items or even entirely new areas - sometimes wholly optional ones.

We use Metroid as an example a lot, but a lot of games do similar things. In the Zelda games there are often breakable walls in dungeons that you can come back to once you have some bombs, or some obstacle blocking your path that you need an item or combination of items to gain access to.

By contrast I think games would be more boring if they were completely linear. If you have no reason to return to an area, that lessens the value of that area later on as well as the depth of the game. Of course it depends on the specific game, but usually having some sort of backtracking rewards exploration and being thorough.

@Ovirew: exploration and being thorough

These are modern ideas of game design which are wrong.

They are a substitute for the inability of modern game designers to design levels.

you are wrong.

@RSM-HQ: OK I'll elaborate.

Exploration is not suited to the action platform genre because what is fun about being OCD and having to see every duplicated tile and hidden area in the game?

This is where the young folk have lost their way.

Go and play Sonic. It has physics, challenge, branching pathways, rewards skill and risk and punishes OCD complexes, unless you like collecting shiny things, at speed.

A rogue like or metroidvania are trying to include elements of games that work specifically for the games it was originally used in. Metroid 1 looks ok but I don't want to play Super Metroid, by that point the level design gimmick was already laboured.

The problem is, the indy scene is harbouring the delusion that 90's Nintendo knew good game design when they wouldn't know it if it walked up to them and slapped them in the face.

@jackamomo: No I mean you're legitimately wrong, not all CastleVania has backtracking. In fact most the series is a straight path to Dracula, and the original game was of this format. Many fans break them up to classic and MetroidVania_

Also lol repeating "OCD" doesn't make your argument strong, it weakens it.

As well Sonic the Hedgehog being "challenge". . What? It's one of the easier retro IPs on the market. Compared to a CastleVania it's a relaxing after hours game. Maybe some of Scrap Brain, they usually cost me a perfect run. At anycase that very same SEGA system got an exclusive CastleVania game if I remember, try that and come back with the backtracking or challenging argument.

It's not the first time I've seen Sonic the Hedgehog fans overpraise a series in areas it never excelled at. . but pull yourself together man. Sonic is easy. Though I still like four of the 2D games for what they are.

This is where the young folk have lost their way.

Or you refusing to accept games outside your comfort zone? Which has been a common conclusion to many of your rantings.

You claim CastleVania is bad because of backtracking, and never even played the original; which predates Sonic the Hedgehog (your glowing example) by five years. Yes, dam us kids enjoying an older franchise (￣ー￣)b

@RSM-HQ: No I mean you're legitimately wrong, not all CastleVania has backtracking

I didn't invent the term metroidvania. The blog is about the backtrack mechanic and how that isn't fun.

It's a stupid term yes. I am aware the only Castlevania game that has non-linear levels is Symphony of the Night. I got quite far on Bloodlines (Genesis) but the game is only difficult because the controls are stiff and the game poorly programmed.

You just fall into endless bottomless pits because some enemy bumps you - it's a rubbish franchise.

I personally think it varies from game to game. Symphony of the Night does it quite well. As it's heavily optional.

Because for starters, backtracking is an extreme exaggeration. One can actually find ways around the backtracking if you persist with the tools already given to Alucard in the linear path to the stairway. That's how people have none-hack speedruns of less than twenty minutes.

This does lead the player out the good ending but if you don't like exploring? you likely don't care if you kill the last Belmont anyhow.

When you break it down, it's exactly the same as collecting emeralds in Sonic the Hedgehog.

Also considering the game has three playable characters, only Alucard has 'progression' tools, the other two play exactly as they did in Rondo of Blood.

So case and point. Your argument is flawed.

@RSM-HQ: I personally think it varies from game to game. Symphony of the Night does it quite well. As it's heavily optional.

SotN is the only CV game with a nonlinear level design.

Backtracking isn't required in SotN but it's likely to happen unless you know the map, which is large.

I just think it's a gimmick and lazy level design which loses pacing. I've got no interest in playing SotN even though I can see how tight the controls are because I know I would end up retracing my steps going backwards and forwards. It looks impossible to complete but then so is Bloodlines. I'm no good at completing games to begin with.

The inventory system in that game is also a gimmick. Weapons are too similar as mentioned in the video I very subtly linked in the OP.

Incorrect. Many the handheld games took the SotN map template. Most known are the Soma games. Which irronically AoS can be beaten in less than ten minutes.

If you're going to mock an entire franchise at least do your homework_

Backtracking isn't required in SotN but it's likely to happen unless you know the map, which is large.

"Likely" goes both ways

So not really, if you by some chance came across the stairs (as player will recognise in the prologue boss fight referencing Rondo of Blood) one may persist and spam the high jump easy found upon going that direction. Sure your Alucard will lack fog and bat forms, but they are just for dashing anyhow. And if one is ignorant, why not go straight to the boss you already know is in that room?

Then you fight Richter, kill him, the end (bad ending)

Done before your meal is cooked. Why so difficult to follow

Many didn't even know about the inverted castle apparently when the game was released (apparently, only read in forums).

So my guess is it was very common players killed Richter instead of freeing him of the wizards control. Which requires a lot of 'backtracking'.

@RSM-HQ: Which requires a lot of 'backtracking'.

Well, I just don't enjoy that.

And that's a fine aspect to dislike.

However considering you don't have to in the game of reference (take the route mentioned, play as Maria/Axe knight or Richter)

And CastleVania has over twenty games with no backtracking what-so-ever so I find this case closed Jackamomo.

You could have just stated "I dislike CastleVania" that would of been a better argument honestly. As some don't actually like how they control or handle slot items (same in all the 2D games). Personally find those kind of negatives to be legitimate, as well with people complaining about the reuse of sprite assets. In some games it was kind of lazy. SotN even reuses many RoB sprites.

Stating CastleVania is bad because of backtracking, is in equal parts relevant as stating Sonic the Hedgehog sucks because he has rap songs.

Which frankly is worse than even the worst case of backtracking in my personal opinion.

This is where the old folk have lost their way. We young people don't want Sonic rapping. . .

@RSM-HQ:You could have just stated "I dislike CastleVania"

Yeah but I enjoyed Bloodlines.

The series overall isn't all that though, be honest. It's just your Nintendo-tinted goggles.

Stating CastleVania is bad because of backtracking, is in equal parts relevant as stating Sonic the Hedgehog sucks because he has rap songs.

That's not the same. This is super serious game discussion thread here. I already lamented the loss of Sonic to stupid cut scenes and horseplay today.

Sonic was cool once, you'll just have to take my word for it.

Not really, I don't play platform bias. I find those that do are too busy with brand loyalty to appreciate games for the fundamentals. Rondo (the game I've mentioned a lot of times) wasn't a Nintendo game, they got an inferior 'port' called Dracula X and it's garbage. Doesn't even play the same and removed a lot of what made Rondo of Blood special.

From the outside in, I can see the lack of appeal, it's the kind of games one has to play to really appreciate its gameplay and pacing.

Yeah but I enjoyed Bloodlines.

Doubt you have played it dood, come clean. You just claimed the series is a curse for being all about backtracking, not to mention all the other corrections that has happened since.

I've always wanted to play that SEGA game though, never got re-released. Read it's a lot like CastleVania III with a cool spear character as optional. However Konami is really stupid and refuse to give us a legitimate CastleVania collection or even a port. One could dream_

And even then they have better games than Sonic the Hedgehog overall. Though ironically neither could go 3D without being a joke to the gaming industry

That's not the same. This is super serious game discussion thread here.

It's not. I would argue that if you are corrected a multitude of times on the games you consider 'bad' and stick with your own argument regardless of not knowing what you are writing about. It is already lost.

It's no longer about the games but you're third person opinion on the franchises name over its gameplay mechanics. This is just a spite thread, not even that. .

This is a stealth Sonic/ SEGA praise thread and it was kind of oblivious. You've even swiftly turned this into a System Wars argument over the games themselves

I couldn't care which systems had the better CastleVanias, as a CastleVania fan I jumped to many platforms just to plays the ones I have, and the list is many.

You just claimed the series is a curse for being all about backtracking

No. I thought only SotN had non-linear level design. I just think it plays like old spectrum games which is fine but they are not easy to play and quite stiff to control. That does have a charm though and I get it.

I got as far as the top of the floating platform stage after the really tricky swaying tower but left the game there. When I go back I get annoyed at how exacting you need to play to not get bumped into the abyss over and over.

I understand you simply will not play a game over emulation. Kay. Guess you will never be able to play Bloodlines then. Probably the best CV game.

There is a 3d Castlevania game btw and it's pretty good.

I only really like Sonic 1 tbh, Oh Sonic Jump was a mobile game I was trying to remember in a previous thread which is a mobile portrait aspect game which was really good on my Sony Walkman phone.

So many vague accusations.

I just want indy devs to stop cramming 'metroidvania' mechanics in where they don't belong and get off their arses and design some fun levels.

FYI I think it is a very stupid phrase as it refers to non-linear level design when CV games rarely have that and Metroid is considered like the best game ever. I admit the NES version does look nice. Not so much the SNES version.

PC Engine and Mega Drive have better versions of CV than the SNES.

Well that's an issue with your OP then, you never mentioned that. Just used SotN as your prime example for the entire IP. And off a video no less. oh boi

I just think it plays like old spectrum games which is fine but they are not easy to play and quite stiff to control

You leave Baburu Boburu out of this! (lol) But on a serious note depends which game one played, even Rondo of Blood has more mechanics than it would seem to appear. The mechanics are of a certain retro age but I think because the levels and situations are designed around what the player offers that's good game design. The later games are quicker paced and offer more flexibility.

I got as far as the top of the floating platform stage after the really tricky swaying tower but left the game there. When I go back I get annoyed at how exacting you need to play to not get bumped into the abyss over and over.

I'm going to assume medusa heads. Rondo has an infamous one which is a secret level after defeating Dracula, it's essentially a medusa head troII-fest.

CastleVania is infamous for them. And really is a testament to memorisation in retro gaming.

At anycase that doesn't seem far into the game, just looked into the games stage and that's the third stage, how can you call it the best CastleVania if it's the only one you have played. . barely progressed? Because it was on a SEGA platform. . You know SEGA got SotN as well. .

I understand you simply will not play a game over emulation. Kay. Guess you will never be able to play Bloodlines then. Probably the best CV game.

Not entirely true. Otherwise I wouldn't sing high praise for Bare Knuckle Remake. Though I certainly would rather pay for a product that 'take' it.

Even then it's tough you calling it the best seriously, with your in-experience, and overall lack of knowledge with the franchise. Would not outrule the possibility. It looks like a competent CastleVania at the very least and that's good enough for me. I just want to whip skeletons, dodge some medusa heads and slay some cool bosses with holy water.

There is a 3d Castlevania game btw and it's pretty good.

Nope, played all the 3D games, they're not only known as garbage, I've played and know first hand. Which is a shame because I liked the idea of Leon Belmonts origin to the whip.

To state a 3D CastleVania is good while dismissing the series is the same of stating having awful taste in games. Next you'll explain why Duke Nukem Forever is the best game of all time. . .

So many vague accusations.

Are you sure

The game is 6 hours long if you don't get lost

What did you base that on? Seems like speculation over evidential data

I am aware the only Castlevania game that has non-linear levels is Symphony of the Night.

I got quite far on Bloodlines (Genesis)

You was wrong on the above and didn't seem you got far in the game you claim is the best. You have also claimed the games are stiff but don't factor the games with air dash, dodge roles and 360 spin whips. This is a large sector of the games.

You think games are 'best on genesis', cool. Too bad for this example your knowledge and actual experience is exceedingly limited. It's easy to mock something you are alien to but it's better to just have a 'I don't get it' attitude than outright dismiss it.

Because; how dare someone enjoy something different to you? That's an odd reason don't you think.

It's not really a Games Discussion if you are basing on speculation and platform bias. For a system rivalry way past its age. It should be under a different forum, Retro or SW.

As for game relative, not much to actually discuss.

@RSM-HQ: not sure where I'm saying people shouldn't enjoy something.

Castlevania is criminally overrated though.

I could probably complete Bloodlines, I just don't feel inclined.

I think it's the best CV game but only because SotN messed up it's level design.

I think people using the term overrated is overrated.

CastleVania is essentially a dead franchise, didn't exactly sell millions, and only had a handful of well recieved games in a long cast of entires. Not to mention Konami are slowly leaving the gaming business.

I've backed Ritual of the Night because I like those good CastleVania games. Would I call the IP swimming in masterpieces? Absolutely not, some are downright awful (all the 3D games, Dracula X, Adventure series, and whatever that fighting game was. .). But at least five out of twenty would call very good games. SoTN is one of my favorites with Rondo and IV close compared in quality. As mentioned SotN let's the player, play how they like, it offers freedom without shoving it down the players throat. You don't want to hunt around the map? Don't

I think it's the best CV game but only because SotN messed up it's level design.

That's two games in a long legacy. Exact same as stating "Sonic Forces is the best Sonic the Hedgehog game, did I mention I've only played Sonic Forces and watched Sonic RPG on YT"

Even then I don't think SotN 'messed up', and you haven't convinced me of that claim at all. The level design is heavily praised and I see why, even mentioned why to an extent above. But the SotN, DS trilogy, and other portable games certainly have a different pace to them over the classics.

@RSM-HQ: I want the GBC Metal Gear Solid on 3DS before they exit the business. I’ve never played it but heard it’s great. I want to play it!!!

I feel your pain, Konami should just sell all the gaming rights to someone. Hopefully a multiplatform company so more people get to play them.

I wouldn't be against SEGA/ Atlus buying all the games and IP from Konami, they've been very successful with the Ryū Ga Gotoku team, Vocaloid; and Atlus library (Persona, Vanillaware games, Shin Megami Tensei). Only IP they really seem to be wasting money on is whatever Team Sonic cook up every year or so. .

@RSM-HQ: SotN has been noted to have obtuse and repetitive enemy placement.

Enemy placement is not level design though. In some areas I do agree enemy placement is downright evil in the games. Would however state SotN is one of the more merciful games for enemy arrangement.

Till inverted castle, which should be no issue for you considering you would kill Richter and end the game with no backtracking

(~￣³￣)~

What is a known note is the 3D CastleVanias are garbage. I've also played them all and think the same, it was the same as playing Super man 64

Less we state the God of War clones the better. Big budget trash.

I like back tracking it's one of my favorite aspects of Metroid. I like feeling like I'm lost in a game world. It's part of the immersion for me. I've been a Metroid fan since 1987. It's always been one of my favorite franchises. Backtracking is part of what made Prime 1 and 2 good. Prime 3 was too linear. I don't like games that force me down a set path full of set pieces. Part of the reason I like Dark Souls so much was the sense of discovery I get from it being a non linear game. A lot of back tracking in Dark Souls too and it's sold well.

It's really rewarding finding hidden armor and weapons in a Souls game, as it's locked once picked up. Especially if you have Knights shooting giant arrows at you and an invader tagging you during the whole experience.

Very satisfying.

I don't know if you're serious or not. Me I like the challenge. I grew up on nes games hard as nails. Some games took me years to beat like Ninja Gaiden and Castlevania. By the time I finished Dark Souls I had a PHD in it.

@jackamomo: so you haven't played SotN then? You're going of someone's blog or YouTube video?

@xantufrog: I’ve played thousands of games in my life. A video is enough at this point to tell me exactly what it is like to play.

@jackamomo: I get the feeling a lot of the games you argue are crap are ones you haven't played.

I honestly think DkS is not that challenging compared to how many have deemed it, it is only catered as difficult in the PS3/360 lifecycle of majority easier games with focus on telling stories over any form of respect to the players control.

Once you click with the pace in DkS, the player should take and handle enemies in few than bunch it's very straight forward. Played a lot of games, namely on the 128-bit generation that pack more punch. DkS is only more challenging when invasion comes into play_

And no, not joking. Because items are not linked to your soul currency, finding a key or amazing weapon/ armor set is a 'I got you' moment. And for DkS usually only get that adrenaline rush during critical sections with an invader present. Whether I survive the onslaught or not doesn't matter because I don't return to the bonfire empty handed. A lot of the harder 3D games I mention above do not, if you die regardless it just sucks to be you in games like DMC3 and NGB/NGS.

That's one of my favorite feelings in the DkS and MH games. Even when the situation is dire, you can still get something out of it.

It's also why I invade a lot in the DkS games, to continue a similar experience, seeing the player have that sense of adrenaline.

@xantufrog: that’s usually the reason I haven’t played them. I am never surprised if I’ve seen footage. You can even see input latency in videos.

Unbelievable

Backtracking used to be synonymous with depth, but people experienced its burnout and wanted more sequences, which is the clear distinction that I make between N64 and PS2 platformers and those on the Wii line of consoles, namely Super Mario Galaxy and 3D World, because the goal wasn't just collecting. There are games which are for the completionist, and those whose feeling of completion comes from replayability, like Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse and Resident Evil 3: Nemesis. I mean that in the branching paths' sense.

Oh boy, I don't even know where to start with this one...

Maybe I should start by saying that I don't particularly like the Castlevania series. I've only really played 1,4, SOTN and Rondo, and I found them either too difficult to be enjoyable for long (in the case of the old-school arcade-y ones) or simply quite tedious (in the case of SOTN).

Still, I wouldn't discredit the entire series based off my underwhelming experience with four games. I don't think they're awfully designed or anything (well, besides all of the boring encounters in the inverted castle), it just isn't my favourite series.

Having said that, Metroid is fantastic. Super Metroid and Metroid Prime are both in my top 10 games of all time, and they're two of the most highly acclaimed games of all time. So I definitely wouldn't describe the 'Metroidvania' style as being flawed - quite the opposite.

So, out of interest, @jackamomo, could you list some of the Metroidvania games you've played? Note that I said 'played', and not 'watched on Youtube', since there's a pretty huge difference between those two.

I mean, I would understand if you've played SOTN, Super Metroid, Guacamelee, Hollow Knight, Dark Souls, etc., and ultimately concluded that you don't like that exploration style. But I would be really confused if you haven't played those games, and yet you were still trying to talk about them from some kind of position of authority...

Anyway, a couple of other things struck me as really weird...

Designing a well-crafted Metroidvania game with an engaging, interconnected, labyrinthine world that is still easy to navigate around takes a huge amount of effort. It's orders of magnitude more difficult than creating a series of linear levels. So I don't understand why you'd call Metroidvania developers 'lazy', when they've taken on a harder task than just slapping together a few linear corridors dotted with set pieces.

Also, arrows? Really? That's the single laziest trick for a developer to use! Developers have a limitless amount of visual, audio, narrative and gameplay design elements to use to try to guide players through their environments. If there's an arrow pointing you to the next room, every room, that's a sure sign of their failure. It's also a safe bet that those lazy developers are targeting their games towards lazy people who don't like to think when playing games.

That's bizarre, because outside of Nintendo and....er...CDPR, indie developers seem to be some of the only developers that try to push any boundaries these days.

You'd never see a AAA developer make something as risky as Crypt of the Necrodancer. You've never really seen anything like Into the Breach before. You don't get AAA games that break genres half-way through, like The Messenger. You...well, you get the point.

I completely agree with you there.

Dark Souls never really struck me as a really difficult game. It's challenging at the start, sure, when you're not familiar with the clunky combat system and you've got no idea where to go.

Once you've got a decent weapon and you've learned rhythm of the combat, things get much more manageable. Then you start leveling up and getting awesome equipment, and the game becomes relatively easy. There's no real punishment for death and you can grind your way past most challenges, so...outside of the occasional unavoidable BS death (your first mimic, the floor falling away during that Tree fight, etc.), it's pretty much smooth sailing after the first quarter of each game.

Also, I played through the game without a walkthrough guide. I'm certain that most players would simply look up what items do, where to go next, and how to beat each boss - which drastically reduces the difficulty (and enjoyment) of those games.

@Planeforger: Also refrain from using guides on a first playthrough. I'm very media blackout as well for games. Would rather get lost and have an adventure. In new game plus it's a little different, as once I've had my blind run like to know what I missed.

Planeforger Designing a well-crafted Metroidvania game with an engaging, interconnected, labyrinthine world that is still easy to navigate around takes a huge amount of effort.

It depends how good you are at level design. SotN is a designed labyrinth and it's dull. Hollow Night uses a predesigned labyrinth and isn't generated.

It's orders of magnitude more difficult than creating a series of linear levels. So I don't understand why you'd call Metroidvania developers 'lazy', when they've taken on a harder task than just slapping together a few linear corridors dotted with set pieces.

Again, it's not more difficult if you make a really good linear level with maybe a branching path or two. You could hash out a boring dungeon with no real thought to it just to make your game long because you don't have the skill or understanding of level design to make a well paced and fun linear or non-linear level.

How do you know I haven't played all these games and I'm just pretending? I could easily just say I played them and there would be no way of you proving otherwise.

I stopped playing games I thought might be better to play than they looked after TW3 which was just the worst. Such an aggravating experience.

If you read my opening topic you will see I have played a non-linear platform game in the form of Wonderboy in Monster World final level and it was really annoying.

That's bizarre, because outside of Nintendo and....er...CDPR, indie developers seem to be some of the only developers that try to push any boundaries these days.

Three Witcher Games and Mario Party? OK then....

You are so gullible to think Crypt of the NecroDancer has any new ideas (which are not stupid).

PS. Saying Dark Souls is not as hard as it's reputation is about as edgy as...a sphere. Thats the best I got, sorry.

If you can complete Dark Souls and think your really leet try completing Road Rash 2. I scoff in the general direction of Dark Souls.

PS. An arrow to follow wouldn't make a 2d dungeon crawler too easy as you would not be able to follow it directly. In fact, it probably wouldn't be much help.

Above is a layout of a non-linear game I've played which has backtracking elements but is never boring because care has been taken with each screen and you don't get lost because that would be poor level design.

@jackamomo: I think at this point everyone active here has come to the conclusion that this is a 'gag'/ 'troII' thread. You can stop putting so much effort into it-

There is nothing objectively bad about it: it gives the player a sense that the world is not built around him and that each new ability allows him to explore and dominate it a bit more.

If you are smart you are going to make yourself an annotated map marking where inaccessible areas and items are, so you can more easily return for them when you have the required ability, like so:

@RSM-HQ: you can't possibly speak for everyone rsm. Just because you don't like the sentiment doesn't mean I am trolling.

Black_Knight_00 There is nothing objectively bad about

Even the term 'metroidvania' is lazy. 'Non-linear' is only 4 syllables where metroidvania is 5 so it's more convoluted and less concise to say than \none-linear\ which is exactly what it means.

It is because the term amalgamates two overrated Nintendo games into one word, it is designed to trick people too young to remember those games into thinking the game has a well designed, credible and authentic 16-bit (the golden age) mechanic which isn't boring.

The thing is. When you are advertising your game as being rogue-like or metroidvania, you are obscuring what that game is by applying vague definitions that don't assure any kind of workable mechanic in of itself.

If so many games are being released (all indy) with the same mechanic or combination of mechanics I can only point to it and say these game designers are chasing trends and not being original.

@RSM-HQ: if it's unclear when he's even played any of the games he's talking about, what's the point, really. Seems like he watches YouTube videos, finds retro games someone gushed over, decides those are his favorite too, and then parrots back online complaints about all the other games in the universe rather than speaking from experience. Like this Ultima 4 stuff - he's never beat the game and was actively researching the topic to back up his badmouthing of other games as the thread progressed. What a waste of time for everyone who tried to discuss the topic

@xantufrog: I didn't have to watch the World of Warcraft film to know it's got good graphics but is boring.

My thing is actually going back to old games which are held up as examples of excellence and debunking those myths.

Case in point. Every SNES and N64 game.

I stated in the Ultima thread I was endeavouring to research the series and share my findings.

I consider myself an expert on Ultima 4. I only haven't completed it over reverence of the game design as a meditative pursuit rather than an objectively lead one.

It confirmed my suspicion that it was the game that introduced the defining feature of the Ultima series which is the system of virtues and remains the only game which is based on being virtuous as a consequential gameplay mechanic... Apart from Shroud of the Avatar but that is really only loosely defined.

I don’t think it’s a “curse” at all myself and don’t find backtracking to automatically be bad. Super Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night are two of some of my all time favourite games and I very much enjoyed how they played. I had a great time gaining new items or maneuvers that allowed me to progress further into the game in areas that were previously inaccessible.

His tendencies have been known by a few even before the Ultima thread. If he thinks it, it is fact (in his mind). Reality doesn't exist in his world. Usually I just find them funny and bait and see how radical it gets, I gave up taking him seriously during a Dragon's Crown conversation. Not even a fan of correcting people but he makes it very simple_

The issue is, even when corrected, Jackamomo will just brush it off and continue with none sense. all you really need to know is

I've read the entire thread (sadly) and picked up he's just ranting at Gamers 'how dare we not appreciate Sonic the Hedgehog and the Genesis to his degree of passion', only good CastleVania game to him is ironically on the genesis (which he gave up at the beginning of Stage 3)

got far into bloodlines

I stopped playing games I thought might be better to play than they looked after TW3

This is more funny than it should be. I recall his The Witcher III thread, it had so many inconsistencies. leading the conclusion he never played TW3 either. He was corrected many times in the thread.

If you can complete Dark Souls and think your really leet try completing Road Rash 2. I scoff in the general direction of Dark Souls.

Reading this let's me know he has played Road Rash at least, is that also a genesis game (I don't even know what a genesis is)? Regardless apparently DkS gives people a cold sweat watching it on Youtube lol.

Some other personal favorites from Jackamomo here-

The series overall isn't all that though, be honest. It's just your Nintendo-tinted goggles.

Sonic the Hedgehog offers challenge

There is a 3d Castlevania game btw and it's pretty good.

^Best sentence in the thread. Speaks volumes.

*From my knowledge Jackamomo doesn't do anything ban worthy (though he did call me Hitler that one time). He just cannot be taken seriously. He's a Youtuber that never accepted games came out after the 90's.

@RSM-HQ You're worse than me at being dictatorial.

All your attacks on me are ad-hominem RSM (personal slurs).

Reality doesn't exist in his world... when corrected, Jackamomo will just brush it off and continue with none sense

The thing is RSM, you follow me around these forms stating what I mean, like I don't think people should like a game as much as me or that I am an authority. But I never claim to be an authority.

If I make a statement I always back it up with reasons or cited facts.

he's just ranting at Gamers 'how dare we not appreciate Sonic the Hedgehog and the Genesis to his degree of passion'

Only if they they are gullible or mislead by reviewers. The rant is directed at indy developers. You are trying to paint me as some kind of angry monster who is attacking 'gamers' pitting me against, like everyone who plays game or something. Why do you hate me RSM?

When you accuse me of one thing after another it makes me feel like you are personally biased against me because I thought Dragon's Crown and Armoured Core are shallow games which is all I ever said about them.

It's worth noting here I don't think shallow = bad if the game is fun.

You can't say all the 3d Castlevania games are bad. I never even said that about the 2d Castlevania series as a whole even though I consider it average at best.

He's a Youtuber that never accepted games came out after the 90's.

Apart from Company of Heroes (2006) is my all time favourite game.

I own Dirt Rally which is probably my most recent purchase, or Into the Breach.

all you really need to know is

... yeah basically.

If you can beat Road Rash 2 and prove it I will never disagree with anything you say ever again and that is a promise RSM.

I do intend to complete Bloodlines but I'm really bad at completing games. It is a challenge but when you get bumped off the edge 20 times in a row you have little choice but to start from the beginning which can be a diss-incentive to continue with it.

[edit] I just realised it has a password system but I am dumb and always start from the beginning.

@jackamomo: it would be easier to feel sorry for you if you weren't such an extremely negative poster.

You literally just told me that you see your role here to tear down games other people like, because they are wrong - even when you haven't played the game! How can you even type that with a straight face? You aren't our thought police

No need to remind me - how could we forget your great "there isn't a single SNES game worth playing because Genesis is better" thread.

Of course you've pissed everyone off

@xantufrog: you see your role here to tear down games other people like

No. Accepted or received wisdom that is not directly or properly considered.

Like for instance, the concept that Ultima 7 is open world when it isn't really. Or that Ultima 7 is deep which it isn't really.

I like and praise loads of things.

My stated aim is to oppose Nintendo and it's fans on ideological and quasi fact based reasons.

I wouldn't enjoy the idea people were feeling sorry for me, I really am fine.

I feel comfortable I am representing some people in my opinions anyway. My Dreamcast thread was so contentious it got banned for being a day or two over the 30 day limit.

It's obvious this rule is really just 'whenever the mods don't want it any more'.

Besides. I haven't posted my blog 'SNES: The worst console of all time' yet.

In my experience, people who always think they are right are the ones who won't accept moderation - even minor moderation like simply locking a thread. In my experience, these users don't last forever because they would sooner blame everyone else rather than paying attention to the rules of the place

@xantufrog: I have to admit, the hypothesis of DC is last 'gamers' console is highly hyperbolic. In terms of rhetoric though it offers many interesting and pertinent avenues of thought although about half of the thread was Vatusus' going back and forth talking about sales numbers so he'd essentially killed it dead anyway because apparently he feels alot of affection for the PS2 which needed defending apparently.

@jackamomo: Someone made the point up above that there is a sort of distinction between gamers who are completionists and gamers who find completion in replayability.

I think they are kind of on the right track for responding to your thread.

Back-tracking isn't a bad gameplay mechanic, that is simply your opinion. Just some people see game levels as static and progression-based, while others view the entirety of a game as dynamic and exploration-based.

Usually people who like progression-based games are your old-school arcade gamers, and early NES/Genesis gamers. This also tends to apply to modern FPS campaign fans, and a lot of fans of "cinematic" style AAA games. The goal is to beat the game, and each level is just a stepping-stone leading to the endgame.

People who like more exploration-based games generally like stuff from the SNES, N64/PS1/PS2/GCN era or handheld gaming, and even a lot of old-school PC gamers. The goal is exploring, unlocking stuff and customizing.

Yes you argue are crap are ones you haven't played

@Black_Knight_00:

There is nothing objectively bad about it: it gives the player a sense that the world is not built around him and that each new ability allows him to explore and dominate it a bit more.

I was going to say something to this effect. It's part of making the setting feel like it existed before the player and will exist after the player...the difference between a world and a collection of levels.

There were a lot of games like this in the NES era - for my part I remember having fun with games like Blaster Master and Dr. Chaos. So i'm not sure what came first. But, what was started by games like Metroid was picked up and adapted by games like Resident Evil, Escape from Butcher Bay and Arkham Asylum (not the sequels). The backtracking is one of the reasons I prefer the RE: Revelations games to post RE4 sequels. The immersion is just that much greater when the world feels like a real place and not just a storehouse for power-ups. I particularly like in games like Butcher Bay and later the Darkness in how the narrative shifts would make back tracking alter your experiences of the very same areas.

There are certainly some not so great ways to do this. Like I think SotN flipping the castle upside down just made the game twice as boring to me. Overall, though, there's nothing wrong with the basic concept of backtracking, even in modern games.