I want to love Street Fighter, but...

First of all, I'm glad you're not making a "Brawl is better than SFIV" topic.

Anyway, back to the topic: Yes, fighting games can be intimidating. I understand where you're coming from.

For me, Street Fighter gives me that perfect balance of controls. But other fighters, especially 3D fighters like Tekken, Virtua Fighter, or DOA, I still don't even know how to play one character! Those games are intimidating and tough for me to play. But to others who played it since day 1, they've mastered it and do moves that boggle my mind.

I think fighting games are like a sport. Some are very good at it, some are pretty good at it, but some are just bad no matter how many times they practice. That's just the way it is. I love basketball and played it mostly my whole life growing up. But I still suck. Sure I got better at shooting and dribbling but I've always been one of the worst among my friends and cousins. I think fighting games are like that because of that competitive nature. That doesn't mean I hate basketball. I still love it. I just love it to my own level and that's how I enjoy Street Fighter and other fighting games. I still love Tekken, Virtua Fighter, and enjoy DOA. I enjoy it differently from those players who are good at it. In other words, this may sound cheeseball, but the saying is true: "Never give up."

And about your comment on Smash Bros. controls, I know you're not implying Brawl is better because of those controls. But you have to understand that the game is aimed toward all ages so that's why the controls are simplified. But if you still really want to play Street Fighter simplified, Capcom released Capcom VS SNK 2 for the Gamecube which had a feature called EO mode. I forget what it stood for but it was a mode where you can simplify the controls to a simple push of the C stick. Maybe you should try that out and see if you enjoy it more.

But honestly, Street Fighter is probably the most easiest and casual-friendly fighting game out there. The game is known for being easy to play, difficult to master. If you still want to enjoy SFIV, I suggest you play player matches online or find fellow friends that play at your level. There is an option in the game where you can set it to "same skilled opponents." That should help even things out a bit and make it less intimidating.

Learning how to do the move is part of the skills.

You need to know how to play the game, and THEN mind game comes next. Do this in this situation, do that in that situation etc.

One of the reason why fighting games are so much fun is because it requires for you to be SKILLED at the game. Not just knowledgable.

You have problem with using fireball? Chances are you are using it wrong. First, know all the properties of the fireball. You can't use fireball when yours is still on the screen. Some moves gets you stuck with animations, and during that time you are unable to use your moves.

Fighting games are always the same. You need to practice and learn how to play the game. Understand how the game works and THEN you get into mind games. In basketball, you can think about how to fake your defender with cross over, but if you can't dribble it's pointless.

ALL fighting games are like this. Trying to master the controls of Virtua Fighter took me a long time. Getting down the timing for Tekken combos took me a little while, etc etc etc.

If there is no learning curve with controls, then that's not exactly a fighting is it? It's just rock paper scissor game with graphical representation.

SF4 sucks and you shouldnt let the fanboys make you think there is something wrong with you for not liking it. Its just about spamming special moves at each other. Mortal Kombat has the exact same combat system and everyone agree's it is the crappiest fighting game on earth. How can street fighter be that much better than MK? lol. Soul Calibur is where its at and out of sheer awesomeness for attack animations and stuff DBZ BT2 has to be 2nd. Whats a Brawl Brothers and a Nintendo?? Who buys nintendo's crap? _AbBaNdOn

MK plays nothing like Street Fighter and it never has. I actually enjoy MK games but the evidence of their inherently flawed construction is literally everywhere. Go type in Mortal Kombat infinities, or glitches on You Tubeand you will get dozens of videos showing you why most of the MK games are completely broken.

I am not trying to say that Smash Bros is better than Street fighter, no... But I do feel that the controls are an improvement, yes. I don't believe that simplified controls are meant for simpler gameplay, or as an "easy mode" for people that can't play. Smash Bros' simple controls doesn't just let it be accessible to me... it lets me pretty damned outstanding at it. It's all about knowing exactly what move you want to do, pressing a single input very quickly, and having your character perform that move guaranteed 100% of the time. In other control styles, but especially the joystick-spinning-heavy style of Street Fighter, it seems as if the skill is far more in figuring out how to make the moves work than knowing when to use them. To me, Smash Bros controls seemed like a great advance in game design on the genre, and I can't see why they're not more appreciated than they are.SouthpawHare

Smash Brothers and SFIV do not occupy the same genre. I really don't understand why some people refuse to understand that, but it's mildly offensive to talk about something like Smash Bros. in the same breath as something like VF5 or SFIV.

That isn't to say Smash Bros. isn't a game that requires skill as it can be played at higher levels but there is no need to try and shoehorn a brawler among fighters. Smash Bros. plays more like Def Jam: FFNY or the Power Stone games, which is why comparing it to fighters like SFIV is pointless.

Also, Capcom did attempt to implement the kind of controls in SF you are referring to with Capcom Vs. SNK 2 EO. It was basically a short bus edition that demolished the balance and integrity of the game play.

SFIV plays fine and while I can understand your frustration I'd venture to say it's more than a tad myopic to request Capcom dump what makes SFIV such a great experience just so a few casual enthusiasts can feel better about themselves.

My problem isn't the controls, they're fine. My problem is as soon as I go online, the controls change. Not the motions, of course, but the timing needs. Where normally I can pull off everything every time on demand with no trouble, online I can't pull anything off reliably. I suppose it's not surprising, seeing that it is online, and I'm guessing if I dedicated myself to just the online, I'd probably get the timing down right, but it's very annoying when you're playing arcade, everything works fine, the second you get an online challenge, pulling off simple moves becomes a crap shoot.

My problem isn't the controls, they're fine. My problem is as soon as I go online, the controls change. Not the motions, of course, but the timing needs. Where normally I can pull off everything every time on demand with no trouble, online I can't pull anything off reliably. I suppose it's not surprising, seeing that it is online, and I'm guessing if I dedicated myself to just the online, I'd probably get the timing down right, but it's very annoying when you're playing arcade, everything works fine, the second you get an online challenge, pulling off simple moves becomes a crap shoot.

DerekLoffin

Obviously, online is going to change few things.

EVERY online game is like this, but fighting game is more sensitive about it due to timing being so precise to play.

But to say pulling off simple moves becomes a crap shoot, now you are just being a drama queen.

Unless the connection is really bad, playing the game normally is not much problem. Even 1 frame combos comes out relatively well (it's something I've been doing online so I know)

Of course there were terrible connections where I couldn't even time jump kicks, but those can be avoided as you don't play against players with 1 bar.

Adjust yourself a little bit, and it's not a problem. I'd understand if you say combos are difficult to do online, but to say pulling of simple moves becomes difficult? To me that sounds like B.S.

All I can say, man, is you have to stay with it. And when you go online and get crushed over and over again, bear in mind that there are people out there (like me) who've been playing Street Fighter in some form or fashion for well over 15 years. It's normal to get crushed along the way. Out of curiosity, are you using a normal controller or an arcade stick?

As far as the controls go, it would be really hard to explain why SF has to be the way it is. Any simpler, and it wouldn't really work properly (look at Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO - the GameCube game - for some validation). The good news is, once you've got about five staple motions down, you've got just about everything you need to start getting your moves to come out on demand. At that point you will, in principle, be able to work any character.

I definitely know what you mean about the controls though, no doubt about it. Even as a SF vet, I find the timing in SFIV to be extremely tight, and I struggle like crazy to link a lot of moves together. The good news is, a lot of that "advanced" stuff is, shall we say, more for "show" than for "go." If you really want to be good at Street Fighter, it's often better to train yourself to be safe than flashy.

Still, I remember going to training mode as a kid and doing Shoryukens with Ken from the left side of the screen all the way to the right, and then back again. I did it over and over and over, just like a kid drilling for football. Then again, I absolutely loved Street Fighter from the moment I first played it, though, so it didn't really feel like work, but still. If it means that much to you, get in there and make yourself get those things down pat.

If you find that the controls in SF just really aren't for you, I think you should have a look at Soul Calibur 4. That's a great 3D fighter right there, and it's got much, much simpler controls that are, believe it or not, comparable to those you mentioned in Smash Bros. Should you decide you really want to stick it out with SF, though, you're in luck. There are plenty of solid players here on GameSpot who might not mind getting in a few player matches with you and helping you work through the hard parts ;)

EDIT: I just read ASK's post and saw his mention of CvS2 EO. Good call man. Oh, and I'm pretty sure the EO stood for "Easy Operation," in reference to the simplified control option.

EDIT 2: Gram mentioned EO as well, apparently, heh.

Besides the infinites and glitchs how are they different?? They both have little to no combo system and rely heavily upon trading special moves back and forth. _AbBaNdOn

In any case, we're not taking this thread down another "which fighting game is best" road. The topic is about the difficulty of fighting games, namely Street Fighter IV. Stick with it.

I get extremely nervous and intimidated when I play ranked matches online, so I just stay way from them. Even player matches leave me a little intimidated, but I know they are just for fun... mostly. The game is hard, and I have loads of trouble pulling off moves consistently, but I still enjoy the game immensely. It's my favorite game so far this year.

Besides the infinites and glitchs how are they different?? They both have little to no combo system and rely heavily upon trading special moves back and forth. _AbBaNdOn

no combo system?

WTF?

The term combo started BECAUSE of Street Fighter. How the **** can you say Street Fighter has no combo?

Learning quarter-circle moves and dragon-punch motions is tough at first, just like using a mouse to look around in an FPS usually doesn't come naturally for new players. Once you "get" it, though, it becomes second-nature and you wouldn't want to go back. In Street Fighter games you have six attack buttons, all of which do something different. They do something else if you're jumping or if you're crouching. Sometimes pressing forward while pressing an attack button does something distinct, too. There's a lot of game there even without the special and super moves. Risk/reward/punishment is a staple concept of fighting games... if you take bigger risks you could possibly do more damage, or put yourself in a position to be punished by your opponent. Normal moves generally recover pretty quickly, so you certainly don't want to accidentally do a Fierce Dragon Punch and leave yourself open when you meant to just throw a punch, so the special moves have inputs that don't tend to happen accidentally.

The inputs for moves does not change. Ryu's fireball is always QCF+punch. What changes is that in the heat of battle, an inexperienced player may get frantic and loose accuracy in input. I recommend going into the training mode and just practicing moves. Drill on them until you can whip them off without thinking, then play arcade mode on an easy setting to get used to using them when your opponent isn't just standing still. Eventually you'll be able to pull specials off reliably even in a hectic match.

Besides the infinites and glitchs how are they different?? They both have little to no combo system and rely heavily upon trading special moves back and forth. _AbBaNdOn

Street Fighter has always been a series that I pick up every now-and-then determined to try my hardest, have a good time, and love it. I always go in with a great attitude, and yet time and time again, I leave disappointed. I just recently rented Street Fighter 4, thrilled by how awesome it looked and excited for some intense, lightning-fast matches. Several hours later, I was so depressed from losing for like the 50th time in a row that I never wanted to look at it again. To clarify, I am neither bad at games in general, nor am I a sore loser. I don't mind someone beating me in a game when I feel like its a fair fight. In every single Street Fighter game I've ever played, however, I've absolutely hated the control style. The whole system of making specific motions with the joystick seems finicky and easy to screw up, to the extent where the character doesn't do what you want them to do even if you know the input. It drives me crazy when I'm actually TRYING to spam hadoukens like a newb, and I can't even succeed at that, because one quarter-turn-forward-button worked and another did something completely different. I enjoy playing fighters on a higher level than mere button mashing, making it only more infuriating when you THINK you know what you're doing and the characters act randomly anyways. I can accept that I am "Bad at the game", but the issue is that I never feel like I'm learning from my mistakes or getting better, based on how random the game feels. I can't figure out what input does what moves, because they seem to almost keep changing, right in the middle of fights. All I can do is think, "Boy, it'd be really nice to use this move right now", knowing it won't happen. Sometimes I wonder if everyone in the entire world except me innately knows how to control Street Fighter characters. Personally, however, I don't see why the whole control scheme of wild joystick-twists and strange button combination ever got popular. Games like Smash Bros proved that having every single move in a game only require one single button and one single direction can work, and can still be deep and involved. I feel that Street Fighter could very well have similar controls, and would be funner for it. I could actually tell my character what I want him to do, and he'd do exactly that. But in all seriousness, my goal is not to hate. Quite the opposite, as I've mentioned that I really want to love Street Fighter games. They... just don't love me back.SouthpawHare

"Getting used" to SF controls isn't learning to deal with a flawed system, it's a learning curve. Imagine a small child that is using training wheels on his bike. If he tries to ride without the training wheels, he falls over, because he hasn't learned how to balance properly yet. That kid might decide that the idea of riding a bike without training wheels is foolish, since with them you don't have to worry about balance, your bike stands nicely without needing to deploy a kickstand, etc. But this kid's older brother, who has learned to ride without training wheels, knows better. He knows that you can lean to change direction and do other things that you can't do with the training wheels on, and that balancing on the bike without them, which was tricky at first, becomes second nature soon enough.

Now look at SF's control scheme: you've got 8 directional inputs (up, down, left, right, and the diagonals in-between)and 6 attack buttons. Pressing each attack button gets you a different attack. Any downward input (down, down/back, down/forward) will crouch, and when crouching each attack button has a different attack than when standing. The same with jumping (up, up/back, up/forward)--a third set of attacks. Back blocks. Depending on character, pressing forward will change some of the attck buttons yet again. So what simple combinations of direction+button are left to launch special moves? None. In order to implement special moves, Capcom had to be more creative and come up with motions that were easy to perform but that you wouldn't do accidentally.

There's also the skill aspect... special moves generally do more damage than normal moves, so they are balanced by generally leaving you more open if the attack doesn't connect, and take a littlemore skill to do. Supers and Ultrasdo even more damage, so require more practice and skill to be able to pull off effortlessly, plus they need a meter to be filled to enable them. The more damaging the moves, the more you have to practice to master them.

I appreciate the respectful understanding that most people have given me in their responses. However, my opinion has not largely changed. Allow me to clarify my point. Despite the fact that you can "get used" to SF controls, and with enough practice, use them well enough without much chance of failure, it doesn't rationalize them to begin with in my eyes where more intuitive controls would be better. Video games have strived to take out the input delay and remove controller error potential, and I don't see this as any different. We're leading up to a future of playing video games directly with our minds someday, and few have complaints with such a cool idea. Having your moves easily at your fingertips is not just for amateurs or lesser players - it's just plain good design. To me, I see the SF style of controls to be a relic of an older time that no one is willing to speak ill of. It could undeniably be done more streamlined, but it's one of the few things that fans can cling to. It exists in such a modern game only because its the way its always been and people would freak out if it were changed at all, even for the better. For the less respectful people, I maintain that I am good at, but more importantly, have a lot of fun with the types of games I speak of. Beyond Smash Bros, there are several precedents of fighting games with simple controls that are nonetheless deep, so I am in no way "bad at" fighting games, or at least this sub-genre. But tooting my own horn is not the purpose. The fact that I've found these games immediately more enjoyable and less frustrating because of it, is. I don't really understand the modern usage of the terms "casual gamer" and "hardcore gamer" anymore. I'm always considered a hardcore gamer based on how much of my life games seem to consume, until I suck at something. Once I do poorly at even a single thing like this, I seem to be labeled as casual, regardless of how much of my life I throw at games or my previous title. Really, who cares though. Just don't think of me as any less of a human being just because I like "party games".SouthpawHare

Which is why Smash Bros is relatively shallow game.

Street Fighter has a learning curve because skill is involved to play the game. That's why people love the franchise and many are still playing, because it requires skill to play the game.

Different level of skill effects the outcome of the game so there is greater disparity of invidual levels. It can much more clearly show who is better and who is worse.

That's the beauty of fighting games and that difference is what makes it worthy of competition.

Smash Bros controls are so simple, it always goes down to 2 things. Which character you are using, and mind games.

The controls are responsive and accurate so the control is not a problem in Street Fighter. 1/60th of second precision says Street Fighter control is just perfectly fine. Also the difficulty of using the moves are quite easy, so I don't know what the problem is. Only when using combos, things can get little tricky but that is advanced moves that should require some greater level of difficulty.

If Street Fighter used your idea, the game would end up becoming very shallow fighter with combos left and right which would be downright cheap. It would've totally made it into a garbage game, so I think Capcom would safely ignore your idea forever when it comes to Street Fighter.

Street Fighter has always been a series that I pick up every now-and-then determined to try my hardest, have a good time, and love it. I always go in with a great attitude, and yet time and time again, I leave disappointed. I just recently rented Street Fighter 4, thrilled by how awesome it looked and excited for some intense, lightning-fast matches. Several hours later, I was so depressed from losing for like the 50th time in a row that I never wanted to look at it again. To clarify, I am neither bad at games in general, nor am I a sore loser. I don't mind someone beating me in a game when I feel like its a fair fight. In every single Street Fighter game I've ever played, however, I've absolutely hated the control style. The whole system of making specific motions with the joystick seems finicky and easy to screw up, to the extent where the character doesn't do what you want them to do even if you know the input. It drives me crazy when I'm actually TRYING to spam hadoukens like a newb, and I can't even succeed at that, because one quarter-turn-forward-button worked and another did something completely different. I enjoy playing fighters on a higher level than mere button mashing, making it only more infuriating when you THINK you know what you're doing and the characters act randomly anyways. I can accept that I am "Bad at the game", but the issue is that I never feel like I'm learning from my mistakes or getting better, based on how random the game feels. I can't figure out what input does what moves, because they seem to almost keep changing, right in the middle of fights. All I can do is think, "Boy, it'd be really nice to use this move right now", knowing it won't happen. Sometimes I wonder if everyone in the entire world except me innately knows how to control Street Fighter characters. Personally, however, I don't see why the whole control scheme of wild joystick-twists and strange button combination ever got popular. Games like Smash Bros proved that having every single move in a game only require one single button and one single direction can work, and can still be deep and involved. I feel that Street Fighter could very well have similar controls, and would be funner for it. I could actually tell my character what I want him to do, and he'd do exactly that. But in all seriousness, my goal is not to hate. Quite the opposite, as I've mentioned that I really want to love Street Fighter games. They... just don't love me back.SouthpawHare

The blanket assessment that controls in all games should, in the name of "good design," be as simple as possible is short-sighted and ambiguous. For one, Street Fighter's controls are, arguably, as simple as they can be in order for that game to work the way it's supposed to. Any simpler, and the game does not improve, it gets worse. And second, the notion of "simple enough" is entirely subjective, so the only way you could be satisfied is if the controls met your standards, even if it meant the rest of the fighting game community, by and large, rejected the new "simplified," (but allegedly "better by design") scheme. That has already happened, by the way. Two letters. E and O.

Street Fighter is precisely as "complicated" or "simple" as it is because that's what it is supposed to be. I don't know how to make this any clearer. How about analogies? In baseball, we don't limit the types and speeds of pitches a pitcher may use in given situations in order to "simplify" the game, because if we did, we'd take out a key element of the game. As a more tactile example, we don't ask that fields be reduced in size so that batters don't have to be as precise and well-practiced to score home runs either. Again, that would deteriorate an entire element of the game. It is the way it is because it's supposed to be that way, and "simplifying" it wouldn't make it "better" in any objective, measurable sense, even though it might make things more interesting for those who can't cope with the game's core design.

Giving examples of games that have very simple control designs and also happen to be kickass games does not suffice as evidence that all games would be better if they had "simple" controls. If anything, that's a logical oversimplification that, again, is categorically short-sighted.

I should have responded to this topic earlier, I apologize for not doing so.

To the OP:

I'm with you all the way, execution is not essential to fighting game depth unless you consider the execution itself an inherently worthy part of the game's gameplay. I completely agree with how you feel about move inputs in fighters, it annoys me to no end that you have to go through such a boring and restrictive process in order to get to the parts of a game which are actually fun.


Now, if you actually enjoy learning move inputs then this will be a non issue to you, in fact I respect the fact that many people find it fun to pull off difficult inputs and find joy in pulling off seemingly impossible combinations of moves. However I see no reason to force people who do not enjoy this aspect of fighters to do this in order to get to the meat of the game proper, this is simply a turn off to many people who would otherwise enjoy the game immensely but cannot because they cannot perform certain moves or understand the state of mind of an opponent who wishes to perform those moves (the latter is frankly just as important if you want to really enjoy Street Fighter).

Now many people have already stated that for whatever reason Street Fighter can not be played properly unless the move inputs are the way they are, EO mode was brought up as well in order to demonstrate this. I'll try to establish that this is not the case with a simple thought exercise. Let's say that the input requirements in order to perform a move (for this example the move will be a shoryuken) are basically equivalent to a short 'charge up' before the move actually starts and Ryu/Ken/Gouki etc. are committed to dragon punching the sky. This aspect of the technique is essential for the game to play as it does because it forces to player to begin inputting the move as soon as they see their opponent jump in, which requires you to be in a state of mind where you can start the input/charge as soon as you opponent starts an action you want to beat out, or possibly before then in anticipation of what they might do. The other essential component of input buffering is that you can chose to not follow through with the attack if it turns out that it wouldn't have been safe to execute, though you may still be vulnerable until you are able to block again (if the input position wouldn't let you block).

Given these properties, adding an initial, cancelable charge section to the start of a special move would be adequate to preserve all of the startup aspects which are important to gameplay (down/forward+[various combinations of punches] , where returning to neutral without releasing all punches wouldn't do the move, would work nicely for the shoryuken). As long as you couldn't store the charge I don't see why this wouldn't be a viable input option. If you want to preserve everything the 623 input currently does then pull off a HD remix and keep the original input as well.

I'll have more to say on this topic later, I hope to see well reasoned responses when I return.

I should have responded to this topic earlier, I apologize for not doing so.

To the OP:

I'm with you all the way, execution is not essential to fighting game depth unless you consider the execution itself an inherently worthy part of the game's gameplay. I completely agree with how you feel about move inputs in fighters, it annoys me to no end that you have to go through such a boring and restrictive process in order to get to the parts of a game which are actually fun.


Now, if you actually enjoy learning move inputs then this will be a non issue to you, in fact I respect the fact that many people find it fun to pull off difficult inputs and find joy in pulling off seemingly impossible combinations of moves. However I see no reason to force people who do not enjoy this aspect of fighters to do this in order to get to the meat of the game proper, this is simply a turn off to many people who would otherwise enjoy the game immensely but cannot because they cannot perform certain moves or understand the state of mind of an opponent who wishes to perform those moves (the latter is frankly just as important if you want to really enjoy Street Fighter).

Now many people have already stated that for whatever reason Street Fighter can not be played properly unless the move inputs are the way they are, EO mode was brought up as well in order to demonstrate this. I'll try to establish that this is not the case with a simple thought exercise. Let's say that the input requirements in order to perform a move (for this example the move will be a shoryuken) are basically equivalent to a short 'charge up' before the move actually starts and Ryu/Ken/Gouki etc. are committed to dragon punching the sky. This aspect of the technique is essential for the game to play as it does because it forces to player to begin inputting the move as soon as they see their opponent jump in, which requires you to be in a state of mind where you can start the input/charge as soon as you opponent starts an action you want to beat out, or possibly before then in anticipation of what they might do. The other essential component of input buffering is that you can chose to not follow through with the attack if it turns out that it wouldn't have been safe to execute, though you may still be vulnerable until you are able to block again (if the input position wouldn't let you block).

Given these properties, adding an initial, cancelable charge section to the start of a special move would be adequate to preserve all of the startup aspects which are important to gameplay (down/forward+[various combinations of punches] , where returning to neutral without releasing all punches wouldn't do the move, would work nicely for the shoryuken). As long as you couldn't store the charge I don't see why this wouldn't be a viable input option. If you want to preserve everything the 623 input currently does then pull off a HD remix and keep the original input as well.

I'll have more to say on this topic later, I hope to see well reasoned responses when I return.

Ectomy

I'll reserve judgment on that until I go through it a couple more times. But I must say this: so long as I can easily pull off special moves with one hand (left or right) using a joystick, I won't budge on my feeling that the sequence down, forward, punch is not asking too much from players. Hell, I was able to link jabs into specials with one hand (I'll make a vid of this if nobody believes me) doing some of the Normal Trials in SFIV's Challenge Mode. And, not to make anyone feel bad, but my 7-year-old daughter and 5-year-old son can throw hadokens consistently (I can vid this too, if necessary). It's really not that hard, guys. I mean, for real...

Anyway, before I get too pumped up, I will admit that it seems like the timing for combos has been cinched up way tighter than it needs to be in SFIV. I thought my arms were going to go numb trying to finish Guile's Trials (hey neat, that rhymes...), which I never did. This is especially true when you think about the fact that for a lot of moves you have to hit two or more buttons simultaneously. So while I contend that Street Fighter, as a whole, is neither "too complicated" or "could benefit from being massively overhauled," I agree that there is a point where things are too damned hard for their own good (David Sirlin does too, as he "simplified" a few of the needlessly difficult inputs from Super Turbo for HD Remix). I just happen to think that point comes way after mere Shoryukens.

EDIT: Lots of sleeplessness makes lots of typos which makes lots of editings. Boo.

As an example of what I just stated above, Cammy's second Hard Trial:

Jump Fierce Kick
Light Kick
Medium Punch
Crouching Medium Kick
Heavy Spiral Arrow
Spin Drive Smasher (Super)

This is already a semi-complicated combo as it is, but it is made infuriating/pointless because of the timing between the Light Kick to Medium Punch, and the Medium Punch to c.MK.

Now, it's not that you have to possess lightning fast hands for this, oh no. That would be much easier. No, for this, you have to push MP at the ***exact*** right moment after the LK. I mean like, there is ONE frame out of the whole SIXTY where your MP will connect. One frame too soon, you get nothing. One frame too late, it gets blocked.

And the c.MK after the s.MP is probably worse. Again, you have to input this on ONE specific frame, and as far as linking moves goes, it is a LONG wait after the s.MP.

Mind you, this combo would be plenty hard to do with even a 2-3 frame margin, especially in an actual match. Why Capcom decided to put a vice on the inputs is beyond me.

Here is the thing...how would you reform the system? There are 6 attack types all which are radically different...how do you reduce that and not loose any of the game?

Special move input too has been simplified as much as possible by making multiple and even slightly incorrect inputs to count validly when pulling moves off. Most of the moves are the way they are simply because they are both simple to pull off and they tend not to conflict with each other.

Granted some changes could be made. For instance the dragon punch motion would be changed to down-back punch instead of the current motion to avoid fireball confusion. The 360 motions could be replaced with half-circle motions as with HD remix. This wouldn't remove any skill but it would prevent unecessary clashes in input. To this extent I agree some simplifcation is in order. But the extent to which the input the game can in simiplied without loosing any of the detail of the gameplay system is extremely limited in SF4's case.

If you see a better way to reform the system then by all means. Inform us. (heck, inform Capcom too whilst you at it, having an patch to allow alternate input methods isn't that hard to implement).

As an example of what I just stated above, Cammy's second Hard Trial:

Jump Fierce Kick
Light Kick
Medium Punch
Crouching Medium Kick
Heavy Spiral Arrow
Spin Drive Smasher (Super)

This is already a semi-complicated combo as it is, but it is made infuriating/pointless because of the timing between the Light Kick to Medium Punch, and the Medium Punch to c.MK.

Now, it's not that you have to possess lightning fast hands for this, oh no. That would be much easier. No, for this, you have to push MP at the ***exact*** right moment after the LK. I mean like, there is ONE frame out of the whole SIXTY where your MP will connect. One frame too soon, you get nothing. One frame too late, it gets blocked.

And the c.MK after the s.MP is probably worse. Again, you have to input this on ONE specific frame, and as far as linking moves goes, it is a LONG wait after the s.MP.

Mind you, this combo would be plenty hard to do with even a 2-3 frame margin, especially in an actual match. Why Capcom decided to put a vice on the inputs is beyond me.

ShenlongBo

I appreciate the respectful understanding that most people have given me in their responses. However, my opinion has not largely changed. Allow me to clarify my point. Despite the fact that you can "get used" to SF controls, and with enough practice, use them well enough without much chance of failure, it doesn't rationalize them to begin with in my eyes where more intuitive controls would be better. Video games have strived to take out the input delay and remove controller error potential, and I don't see this as any different. We're leading up to a future of playing video games directly with our minds someday, and few have complaints with such a cool idea. Having your moves easily at your fingertips is not just for amateurs or lesser players - it's just plain good design. To me, I see the SF style of controls to be a relic of an older time that no one is willing to speak ill of. It could undeniably be done more streamlined, but it's one of the few things that fans can cling to. It exists in such a modern game only because its the way its always been and people would freak out if it were changed at all, even for the better. For the less respectful people, I maintain that I am good at, but more importantly, have a lot of fun with the types of games I speak of. Beyond Smash Bros, there are several precedents of fighting games with simple controls that are nonetheless deep, so I am in no way "bad at" fighting games, or at least this sub-genre. But tooting my own horn is not the purpose. The fact that I've found these games immediately more enjoyable and less frustrating because of it, is. I don't really understand the modern usage of the terms "casual gamer" and "hardcore gamer" anymore. I'm always considered a hardcore gamer based on how much of my life games seem to consume, until I suck at something. Once I do poorly at even a single thing like this, I seem to be labeled as casual, regardless of how much of my life I throw at games or my previous title. Really, who cares though. Just don't think of me as any less of a human being just because I like "party games".SouthpawHare

Less is more, yes, but too little isn't good either.

For example, I have this Naruto import game that I have fun playing. It's very simple and easy to play with one button special moves. And it's a blast, but it's a little shallow and doesn't have too much depth. My point, is just because it's less frustrating and you find more enjoyment out of it doesn't make it a deeper or better fighting game.

It's just the way you view it and your level of play. You may think this Naruto game is fun and deep because it's easy to control, but to someone who's been playing fighting games a long time like myself, I feel it's to simple with little depth. Both are views aren't wrong, it's just different to our levels.

To fighting game veterans, games like this Naruto import title and Smash Bros. are to simplistic. They're fun to play for sure, but as a fighting game, they don't give that same competitive challenge that fighting vets look for. At least that's what I think. Street Fighter to me has a great balance. I love finding new combos and pulling them off in the games. That's what makes it so fun and so great.

But you have to want to learn it. I just learned a incredibly difficult combo the other night which is a EX Focus cancel during a special move that leads to a Ultra move. I spent hours in training mode trying to do this after watching some Youtube videos. And after hours of carpal tunnel inducing practice, now I could do it anytime I want. I still have a tough time doing this new combo in a real match, but I'm still one step closer in being able to. It's this type of dedication that one needs to love fighting games like this.

Games like the ones you want don't provide this type of level. So that's why Street Fighter can't have simplistic controls. It would take away why this game is so great. And like I said, I have a tough time with Tekken and Virtua Fighter because I never played these games as much as I played Street Fighter. So I can sort of understand and relate to where you're coming from. But I still love Tekken and Virtua Fighter, so I guess you just have to enjoy it to one's own level of play.

[QUOTE="ShenlongBo"]

As an example of what I just stated above, Cammy's second Hard Trial:

Jump Fierce Kick
Light Kick
Medium Punch
Crouching Medium Kick
Heavy Spiral Arrow
Spin Drive Smasher (Super)

This is already a semi-complicated combo as it is, but it is made infuriating/pointless because of the timing between the Light Kick to Medium Punch, and the Medium Punch to c.MK.

Now, it's not that you have to possess lightning fast hands for this, oh no. That would be much easier. No, for this, you have to push MP at the ***exact*** right moment after the LK. I mean like, there is ONE frame out of the whole SIXTY where your MP will connect. One frame too soon, you get nothing. One frame too late, it gets blocked.

And the c.MK after the s.MP is probably worse. Again, you have to input this on ONE specific frame, and as far as linking moves goes, it is a LONG wait after the s.MP.

Mind you, this combo would be plenty hard to do with even a 2-3 frame margin, especially in an actual match. Why Capcom decided to put a vice on the inputs is beyond me.

Articuno76

These conversations can be very difficult because there are a lot of core concepts to get across before a new player can even begin to understand the reasoning of some things.

To put it simply, if you are a new player it is in your best interest to NOT want easier special moves.I could write a 10 page essay on why but because we are on a forum where topics fade off into nonetheless in a week I won't waste the time to do so. I'll simply borrow other examples to help illiustrate this point.

Please follow this thought to the bitter end. In high level Street Fighter play, move inputs are a non issue. You must understand that some of us have been playing Street Fighter since before many of you were even born. For us, doing a special move is as seemless as having a controller hooked up to our brain. Even still, none of us want simplier inputs becaues of one reason: timing.

If I'm playing another expert, I know that he will punish me with a dragon punch the moment I jump at him. If he is standing still or walking forward, this is a given. The reason why is because the time it takes for him to do the motion is almost instant. However, if he is say, walking backwards, I know that I can probably safely jump in on him because he will first have to move the joystick forward then do the rest of the motion which will take more time thus giving me more of a window to safely jump in on him. If he is already walking forward, he has already done one of the three input motions required to do the Dragon punch so jumpingi at him is incredibly foolish. If you were to take out move inputs altogether and simple make it so that a dragon punch is performed by pressing forward plus punch, you will find it IMPOSSIBLE to ever mount an offense against your opponent. The entire game would have to be reworked to compensate this and as such you would have a much different game that doesn't play anything like Street Fighter.

When you take out the input delay, you throw off the balance of the game. Have you ever wondered why Guile's special moves require 2 seconds to charge instead of say 3? What is so special about 2 seconds? The reason why is because having to charage a move for 2 seconds will force the Guile player to follow the timing rules of Street Fighter. His recovery after the boom is non existent which when combined with the timing it took to charge the boom and do it, it is about the same as inputing a fireball motion and having to recover from the animation. Ryu's fireball is the same speed all around whereas Guile's takes a while to prepare but recovers quickly. All these little factors were taken into consideration in the early development of Street Fighter 2.

Fast forward to Street fighter 4. The inputs have been made easier allowing more people access to moves that normally required hours of perfection. Consider Zangief in Street Fighter 4. His Spinning Power Driver is no more powerful in this version than in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Yet, I would be willing to bet that none of you ever got sucked up in that move in Street Fighter 2 as many times as you have in Street Fighter 4. So what gives? The problem comes from an easier input of the SPD. In Super Turbo, timing repeated SPD on an opponent's wakeup took EXPERT timing and lots of practicing. Trying to land a SPD after a tick like move was even more difficult. Now in Street Fighter 4, the SPD motion is made easier and more forgiving and the game holds your hand while you do that. Same move, but now I would venture a guess that many of you are terrified to get near Zangief for fear of being taken for a ride. Unfortunately, for the sake of simplicity, the developers have made his SPD as easy to do as a fireball but still retain its damage. Now all a low level plyaer has to do is spam them and he can probably win a couple of matches just doing that. If I mess up a 1-frame link, I'm going for a ride. If I mess up a block stun, I'm going for a ride. You see, while Zangief is in block stun all he has to do is constantly spin the D-Pad hoping to land a SPD if his opponent's timing is off. No other move in the game gives you this much damage potential. In the older Street Fighter games, if you did this you would probably be flying around the air looking like a fool when you screwed up the timing thereby causing you to put more thought in your counter attacks. Having a mindless "win" button sure may be a lot of fun, but does it really improve the Street Fighter experience?

Another problem with easier motions is overlapping motions. Here is a super secret technique that many of you probably don't know. Did you know that you could do a dragon punch simply by pressing Down forward (in the direction facing your opponent) Twice+Punch in Street Fighter 4? Yep, its that easy to do a move that was once considered difficult. How does this affect gameplay? Well the main problem now is that doing fireballs can often lead to accidentaly dragon punches. You see, the game wants to help you do the "difficult" dragon punch so its constantly looking for the double down forward motion. That means if you are attempting to do a fireball and you do Down, Down-Forward, Forward, Down-Forward, you get a Dragon Punch. Typically, most people do said motion when doing a fireball at of habit. In my opinion, those simplier controls actually make the game MORE complicated and difficult.

I could go on and on but I'll stop here. The main point of all this is that there are certain barriers in all fighting games that are there simply to balance out the game and, at the same time, force players to play smarter. If you dumb down a game too much, you destroy its long term playability and balance.

Even though SF4 was my first Capcom fighting game that I owned AT HOME, I'm starting to get the hang of it. You see, it comes down to mind games and sheer TIMING. Timing is key here. And if you thought SF4 was hard to get into, stay far away from Virtua Fighter 5. It's easy to learn, but if you button mash against a master, you won't survive 10 seconds in both rounds TOGETHER. Just saying.