A Plead for Help From A Sad Gamer?

The gaming culture is one of the most welcoming and open culture in existence. It doesn't matter if you're boy, girl, trans, both or neither. It doesn't matter if​ you believe in God, Allah, or Justin Beiber. You are welcome to be one of us if you honestly love games. Nothing else really matters. It's all about games.

Except it's not all about games. Not anymore.

Corporate greed may be the first evil to dig their fangs into the veins of gaming. But we have a handle on that. We all know corporate greed can ruin games. We're keen to keep them on the defensive.

Of course, we also have ignorant mainstream media that throws nonsense our way once in a while. They're outsiders and they just don't get it.

These days though... you can't go a week without someone holier-than-thou telling you how you should be ashamed to be a gamer because Master Chief isn't a girl... that rescuing a female hostage is objectifying woman because all the male hostages in classic Counter Strike and Rainbow 6 didn't count.

Even worse, these garbage are released by people who are supposed to be gamers, not corporate vampires or outsiders. Our own people are bringing in garbage from mainstream world into the gaming world.

We can no longer look forward to a game simply because the graphic is amazing and gameplay is revolutionary. No. It's all about if a girl dresses too much like Conan. It's about how Mario rescuing Princess Peach objectify women as helpless victims. It's about how killing hundreds of cops and male pedestrians are just fun and games, but killing a single female prostitute is the most horrible thing.

W.T.F.

Yes. The real world sucks. 9 year old wife can get f to death by her husband on her wedding night. Girl who got raped can get sent to prison. Yeah. We know. We DO care. We wish the world is a better place, too, BUT THIS IS NOT THE WORLD REVOLUTION INDUSTRY.

THIS IS THE GAME INDUSTRY.

THIS IS THE GAME COMMUNITY.

We have plenty of sh*t in real life. We don't need them in here, too.

We want our artists to focus on making amazing games. We don't want them to be petrified with fear about offending this guy or that girl.

If you don't like our games, that's alright!

Feel free to make your own games!

If they're any good, we will probably buy!

We just want amazing games!

If you're here for games. Welcome to the family!

If you want to fight injustice, fight real evil in the real world. Don't use gamers as target practice.

Okay, I'll bite. For the sake of argument:

Gaming culture isn't particularly welcoming or open. Try playing DOTA 2 for the first time to see what I mean. It's full of aggressive, testosterone-fueled teenage boys. Those teenage boys are also the audience that most mainstream games are designed for. There's a reason why most game protagonists are idyllic white 20- or 30-something Nolan North types. It's the same reason why you won't see a female protagonist in a game developed by Rockstar - their target audience is typically too sexually insecure to ever want to play as a girl.

The upshot of all that is that a very large number of videogames tend to be male-centric. Female characters are typically sidelined (with some notable exceptions) - they can be the goal of the hero's journey (rescuing the princess), the obstacles along the way (the scantily-clad dominatrix villain), or romantically vulnerable allies (romance options ahoy), but they're rarely anything other than those roles. And then there's the Female Armour Paradox, and all sorts of things.

With those in mind, how can you honestly say that gaming has one of the most welcoming and open communities? They cater to the majority (teenage boys), sure...but they typically exclude the growing number of female gamers (no, they aren't a myth) and 'minority' groups (non-white gamers, non-heterosexual gamers, etc.).

So, why not encourage developers to be a bit more inclusive of other people? If we want the gaming to have one of the most inviting cultures around, why not change a few things - remove the chainmail bikinis, maybe throw in some better-written female characters, etc.?

The changes don't have to be drastic to make things better for all gamers.

The Opening sentence talks about how inclusive the gaming community is while the rest of the topic talks about excluding others who aren't seen as being part of our community: "they're outsiders and they just don't get it."

You shouldn't pay any attention to any of it. It will die out like every scourge before it

Amen.

Firstly, the "beta gamer"/"alpha gamer" distinction is cute. Does typing things like that make you feel like a real man?

Secondly, I've never actually played DOTA, I've just heard that its community is full of massive arseholes. I'm pretty sure that this is common knowledge - it's like the Counter-Strike community from the very early 00s, only a hundred times worse.

Thirdly, your description of an alpha gamer sounds a bit...well, sad, to be totally honest. You sound like the type of person who would ragequit if you die a couple of times in a row, or if the team you were on was a bit crap. Also the sort of person who would yell and scream over teamspeak and take things Way Too Seriously. That type of gamer doesn't care about the game at all, they simply care about their own ego, and they'll find whatever niche they can to stroke their e-peen for as long as possible.

Fourthly, you're completely wrong about me. I win just about everything I play with my friends - shooters, action games, racers, board games, card games, you name it. I used to always top the scoreboards in online shooters as well - particularly Counter-Strike, Enemy Territory, TF2 (back when it was good). I can be a massive competitive tool when I want to be.

I just don't make winning my philosophy, because I think people who say things like "winning is my philsophy" in relation to an online game really need to re-assess their priorities in life. I really enjoy winning online games, and I really enjoy playing singleplayer interactive novels or offbeat indie titles. *Games* are fun. Why limit yourself to just one? And why limit your enjoyment of that game to just one aspect of it?

And for the competitive kicker: when it comes to games, I get the best of both worlds, and you don't. So I win? ;)

(Oh, and fifthly, what has any of this got to do with what I wrote? Are you suggesting that "alpha gamers" think inclusiveness and tolerance is ruining gaming? Because if that's the case, then surely "alpha gamers" are simply ruining gaming for everyone else!)

Talking about the cultural and social implications of and/or representations in videogames, no matter how biased, is very much about the videogames. Videogames do not exist in a vacuum. They are played within in a context and discussing that context is as much about videogames as discussing gameplay mechanics (in my opinion, of course). This may sound weird, but I think that all these people complaining about the stuff that doesn't interest you are going to be good for videogames in the long run. They will draw in more diverse people, who will actually make games, instead of just whining about them. They will emphasise the heterogeneity of the gaming community, pointing out that videogames and videogames media appeal to different people and not some single-minded herd. They will aid us in learning to deal with ignorant and selective critics, who you'll find in every entertainment sector that has a mainstream appeal. And once we've experienced that all these whiny people are easily ignored and really don't influence the actual products that much, except for maybe motivating some people to make a game that is a little bit different (not because they are forced, but because they want to), then we will finally go back to whining about other things. :-P

I don't understand why so many people take these complaints so personally, especially since so many claim it's all about the gameplay. Why, if gameplay is all that matters, do you care so much about what some ignorant feminist thinks of you? They will not take over gaming. They will scream from the sidelines, helplessly trying to influence something that is driven by markets and audiences. Look at the movie industry; that's still a feminist's nightmare in most cases. But it won't change, because it sells.

anytime i hear the word "inclusive" i auto-ignore.

anytime i read a "serious" gaming comment that brings up politics i laugh.

boo f'in who.

LOL That sounds like a really nice alternate reality. How can I get there?

@hailtothequeen: lol, only fools think the gaming industry is ripe with inequality.

you can get to the land of sanity by passing my test: is killing what you know will be your child murder if you don't snuff them out first an immoral act?

No, people who have personally experienced it know that it exists. Do yourself a favor and go read my "Sexism in Gaming" post on my blog so that you can actually learn something. Its something that a large percentage of female gamers deal with everyday but I (and a few others I know) have experienced it first-hand to a much higher degree than the average female gamer due to my skill level and the fact that I don't take crap from anyone. If you want to see the difference between a female gamer and a male gamer, go watch what happens when a male gamer speaks on in-game chat and then compare it to what will most likely happen when a female gamer speaks. LOL Or watch what happens when a female gamer of my skill level beats one of the top male gamers on a game. Watch the chaos that ensues.

Want more examples? Sure, how about the recent fiasco over the IeSF and their tournament. They banned female gamers from the main tournament and wanted to make us play in a lesser tournament (with lesser prizes) as some sort of sideshow act. Fortunately, I got together with several female and male gamers and youtubers and set up a massive campaign to get them to change their policy. It only took us less than 48 hours before they officially changed their policy so that was one battle against sexist policies that we won.

Also, don't waste your time trying to troll me with some nonsensical and overly-simplistic argument about morality. Trust me, I'm pretty sure that is a battle you will lose quickly like other "pro-life" hypocrites. ;O)

@hailtothequeen: you seem to think that sexism is inherently wrong on all accounts.

you are inherently incorrect.

lol, my abortion question is a very simple example of reason. hey, let me know when that hetero or gay gene is found, lol.

it does get annoying when a bunch of assholes bash video games because there "aren't enough female characters" man. i mean if you don't like video games then shut your mouth about it. your not the video game developers, they can do whatever the hell they want. and don't even get me started with how they portray women "in a bad way". please just shut up so we can all live together in harmony.

No one with a brain uses a mic in online FPS games.

"Your body your choice" whereas men have no choice. Boys 15 years old raped by their teacher are forced to pay child support for her "choice." Neither does the general public have a choice in PAYING for your abortion even if they don't believe in it (or paying for WIC if you choose to give birth,) nor do men have a choice to subsidize women's health insurance costs, or anything else, there are 1500 women's shelters and 0 men's shelters, prostate cancer receives half the funding as breast cancer. Men pay %70 of taxes and receive %0 of public services.

The 71 cent fallacity stems from women making different career choices and work/life balance, women in their 20's and 30's are paid MORE for doing the exact same job as a man, not to mention all the "equal opportunity" where companies can get sued for not promoting women based on sex rather than based on merit. A mediocre woman can rise thru the ranks just by being semi-competent, a man has to actually, you know, compete for and deserve that spot. Nor do we see women rushing to take any job that doesn't consist of shuffling papers in an air-conditioned office rather than on the highway pouring asphalt in 90 degree heat.

If the sum total of your oppression as a female is getting cussed at in CoD, consider yourself lucky that you don't deal with male problems like having your children kidnapped by their mother and being unable to see them, getting booted out of the house you purchased, getting cleaned out in family court and becoming homeless, false accusations of DV, child abuse and so forth that are rampant, and a "consent" standard of sexual assault prosecution in extrajudicial kangaroo courts without due process.

To top it off, we have dirtbags like Anita Sarkeesian who don't even play video games, trying to make our relaxation time as uncomfortable as possible to collect $160,000 for 4 hours of work, and dumbasses like you falling lockstep into her misandrous agenda.

I see we have some conservatives here. ;O)

Now you're just illustrating your ignorance.

Actually, almost everyone uses a mic on FPS games, especially on the PC. Its pretty much mandatory if you want to be part of a team. The fact that you didn't know that is puzzling.

"Boys 15 years old raped by their teacher are forced to pay child support for her "choice."

Okay that is the stupidest thing you have said so far. Cite your source for that story.

This thread isn't about abortion so I'm not going to be lured into derailing it. If you want to debate that issue then feel free to start another thread. This thread is specifically about an issue related to gaming so lets stay on topic, kids. And please, I definitely hope you start a thread about inequality as far as the workforce goes. LOL That's one where I would absolutely enjoy shredding your poorly-conceived arguments.

Now, back to the topic... Males don't face anywhere near the kind of nonsense women have to deal with in gaming, unless you're gay of course. Like I said before, go read my Sexism in Gaming post on my blog and then let me know if you have personally experience ANY of those things. LOL Or if any males you know have experienced them to that degree. I'm betting the answer is NO and that is just the tip of the iceberg. There are countless other female gamers who deal with the same nonsense.

The entire thing can pretty much be summed up by this old video...

Now you are being just silly. You clearly stated NO ONE uses a mic in FPS games now you are backpedaling. Whether its private chat or not its still using a mic. So your initial statement was wrong based on your own admission which can be summed up to, arguing for the sake of arguing.

As for the absolute rubbish that you think is acceptable in the last section of your response, you did a good job demonstrating prejudice against women. Good job proving the basis of your comments wrong. The last line is nothing short of ignorant,arrogant, tasteless and despicable. Always remember that you are part of the problem that you believe doesn't exist. :)

What the hell are you talking about? Alpha gamer? Who comes up with these asinine categorization? Is there a self esteem deficit for modern gamers? Whats wrong with you people? You are being a jerk in your response and trying to argue that its possibly other gamers that are truly the jerks. How argumentatively broken.

What I said was, no one WITH A BRAIN uses a mic for FPS gaming.

Obviously I meant the "public chat" which is a cesspool, and not more selective clan-based communication.

It's 2014, women can build games according to their own taste.

Except the only thing we see women like Anita Sarkessian contributing to is noise pollution. "Waah I am so oppressed" while she pockets $160,000 and plagarizes her work.

Thanks for white-knighting.

"lol @ teamwork on pub chat Public chat in FPS games is pretty much used as a "fight room" to trash talk and work people up into a rage.If you want teamwork then join a clan that have their own Teamspeak or in-game chat channel."

Ah I see. You're clearly from XBOX Live, as I once was myself. When you play PC FPS games, almost everyone uses voice chat, not just when you are part of a clan. For example, go install Planetside 2. You will quickly see that damned near everyone uses the in-game voice chat to some extent. A lot of platoons and squads won't even let you play with them if you don't use it. And when clans are just playing for fun, many will use the in-game chat so that they can more easily communicate with non-members in the platoon. Its the same on Battlefield games, TF2, etc...

"You brought it up, dumbass, I'm also happy to school you about "inequality in the workforce," anytime anywhere."

No, actually I didn't bring it up. udubdawgz1 brought it up so you may want to pay attention next time, DUMBASS. ;O) Also, feel free to go start that thread. Trust me, you won't be schooling anyone. LOL I'll be waiting. You better be able to actually prove anything you say because I won't let you get away with posting opinions as facts like you have tried to do in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11149730

Fake story, as many people have pointed out. There is no record of the story anywhere, other than forum posts amde by random people. We clearly have another Ban Fathersday type of thing here. Oh and...

http://www.inquisitr.com/915699/was-an-underage-male-rape-victim-ordered-to-pay-child-support-to-his-rapist/

If this is what passes as evidence to you, you're going to be in for a long day when we debate those other issues. LOL

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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2063855/posts

Okay, this case appears to be real but you made it sound like the person was forced to have sex. I have always had a problem with refering to sex with a minor as statutory RAPE. To me, rape is being forced to have sex in some way. It should be changed to some like "Illegal Sex With a Minor" which is more fitting. Now here is where I blow your "feminists all believe this or that" mentality out of the water. I'm pretty sure most feminists would agree with me when I say that in this case, the minor shouldn't have been forced to pay child support even if it was consensual, due to the fact that it was an illegal act to begin with. Also, this is a good example of our broken justice system. A system in which women are usually treated far worse than men in a lot of different types of cases. Mainly, actual sexual assault cases.

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http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/he-says-he-said-no-to-sex-now-says-no-to-child-support/1183449

The person in question has not even been charged in this case. And again, its consensual so my previous comment applies.

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http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=145400

The first case he mentions is from 26 years ago. You're blaming feminists now for something that happened before quite a few of us were even born? Well then, I'm personally blaming MRAs right now for women not being able to vote at one time. LOL

None of the cases you listed involves actual rape which is what you made it sound like in your post.

And again, this derails the thread so if we want to continue this part of the conversation, please make another thread.

"How do you know what males do or don't face in gaming?"

Because I play with and against them on every level of gaming, from pubs to competitive play. And I don't see it. Nor do I see them complaining about anything like what I have had to deal with... The worst thing that seems to happen to male players is being called a name here and there. There is no consistent harassment on this type of scale.

"Feminists like to think they speak for "women" but they only speak for white women, who are collectively and historically the most privileged group of people on Earth"

Actually, white males are the most privileged people on earth. Also, there are plenty of non-white feminists. LOL My teammate in Estrogen is a native-american and she is the one who actually got me interested in the subject. Frankly, you are lucky that you're not debating her. It would be so much worse on you. LOL

As for the other comments, I already told you, I'm not derailing the thread. START ANOTHER ONE if you want to discuss men's rights vs women's rights and I would be happy to debate you.

"You want fem-centric games? Then go fucking build them."

Companies ARE starting to do exactly that and everytime they do, MRAs like yourself come crawling out of their basements to complain. Just like you complain when a dev adds a gay chaarcter or a black one as anything more than a minor role. Remeber the big uproar over the race switch of one of the characters in Battlefield 3? LOL White males went crazy over that. Remember the gay scene in Mass Effect 3? People went crazy over that as well. And the fact that the main character in Tomb Raider was changed to be more of a strong female character and more realistic irritated a lot of male gamers as well. Its hilarious to me.

"Nothing is stopping you except for the fact that women have contributed nothing to gaming but NOISE POLLUTION."

Actually, there are plenty of prominent women in companies and on dev teams. Do some research. Have you played the Portal games? The Uncharted games on the playstation consoles? Ever played popular indie games like Journey? The extremely well-written Gone Home? Among the Sleep? The awesome-looking survival-horror game, Routine? And these are just some of the games with women in a main role. There are quite a few dev teams with at least one or two women on them.

Also: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/percentage-of-female-developers-has-more-than-doubled-since-2009/1100-6420680/

Oops.

The more you talk, the more we all see that you are completely irrational and hate the idea of women being involved in gaming, which makes you a sad individual. You like to claim that feminists hate men but the only person I see doing any hating at all here is YOU.

Yes, any male who disagrees with you must be white-knighting. It can't be because you're just wrong and irrational. LOL Your blatant sexism shows more with every new post.

@Minishdriveby: "The gaming culture is one of the most welcoming and open culture in existence."

I stopped reading after that sentence move along pplz

@ssh83: I agree with you, the world is throwing their backward views into games now this is crazy. If people dont see this they are already brainwashed by the media and the left ideology.

Everyone, please calm yourselves. If you cannot post without insulting someone, refrain from posting altogether and return when you are in better moods.

Most people don't use mics, unless they are with friends, in which cases they generally are on teamspeak or party chat. No one wants to interact with complete strangers, knowing the kind of human garbage that generally populates online shooters. Harsh but true.

I think the most laughable thing about discussions like this is the assumption that all white men are the same and if I am white, than playing as a white man means I am playing with someone who is "like me" and inclusion means putting in women and people of color.

I am an Italian American, the number of Italian protagonists is strikingly low. I get Mario, who is the man, but also personifies the stereotype that all Italians are fat Luigi, who is a total coward, and then a whole bunch of Mafia/Soprano types who further personify the stereo type that all Italians are gangsters.

Of course none of this bothers me, I do not care who I play as, and I have never played or not played a game because of any detail about the protagonist or any other character in the game. The simple reality is that there is a whole brigade of idiots out there who are constantly trying to police everything and make everything politically correct. The best course of action is to simply ignore them, people have been rallying against the gaming industry since the early 90's for one reason or another but, just like the critics who rally against any form of entertainment, are completely ineffective and will have absolutely no impact on this industry at all.

It does not matter if you are offended or if it bothers you or not. People love to trivialize the effects of entertainment and have this naive outlook that its all harmless and its not real etc. If only that was true. The unfortunate reality is that a person who can potentially be offended is the least problematic. They would eventually get over it. However, its the people who are not offended that are the bigger problem in that this potentially offensive/stereotypical outlook of a particular group;whether it be race, culture, gender etc, is being slowly accepted as fact. These are the same people who part take in real world decisions and their outlook can directly affect others negatively without realizing it. This is not race specific or specific to any group because anyone can be affected by these poor generalization and overuse of these stereotypes.

Pedro:

Noone accepts these things as fact, absolutely noone. The problem here is not people who are not offended, the problem is people like you who over react to absolutely meaningless things like the topic at hand.

I will go back to myself and my culture for a moment. The simple fact is Italian Americans in video games are largely represented as lowlife mafia types, as I said before the only truly heroic Italian American I can think of in a video game is Mario. But just because that is how we are represented in video games does not mean thats how we are in real life, nor does it mean that anyone perceives us to be that.

No matter how many times my people are represented as gangsters, be it in movies, games or any other form of entertainment, that does not affect how anyone, other than the stupidest of stupid, perceive Italian Americans.

How any race is depicted in a game has absolutely no meaningful bearing on anything, nor does it have any bearing on how anyone thinks. These stereotypes have been around for generations, they will continue to be around for generations, but nobody with any sense accepts them as fact, and no matter how many times these stereotypes are used, or not used, nothing at all will change.

Too much us vs them. Everyone wants better games in one way or the other. Arguing that certain aspects of gaming are less deserving of attention than others is a matter of perspective, akin to arguing that certain charities researching various diseases are less deserving of funding than others. It's a matter of what you value and find importance in.

Approaching such a subject while being anything other than excellent to each other is counterproductive. Know that everyone wants the same thing as you, to simply play better games.

Well, as someone who has played nearly every multi-player FPS in existence, I know for a fact that you are wrong. Its as simple as that. LOL I know because I hear most of them speaking during the games, especially on the PC. I haven't played console games in several years but I know for a freaking fact that in most FPS games on the PC, the majority of people I play with and against USE MICS to some extent. This isn't 2004 anymore. Its expected of you to have a mic even when pubbing. There are some who don't but the majority of people use them now. Like I said earlier, for a perfect example, download Planetside 2 and hop in a random squad or platoon. I promise you that about 80-90 percent of people will be using mics. On games like battlefield 3 it was probably around 60-70. And if its that high on the PC, I would imagine that most people on the consoles use them, considering the lack of a real keyboard.

Truth. This is someone who is actually looking at the issue objectively.

Excuse me? If you want to talk about so-called "alpha gamers" you would find it pretty difficult to find someone who is more freaking alpha than I am. But the problem is that i'm not selfish and while I do have a massive ego, I am not quite as ego-centric as many people. I'm white but I have no problems with devs adding more black people as key characters in game. I'm heterosexual but I have no problems with devs adding LGBT characters and relationships. I'm an Atheist but I have no problem with religious characters in video games. Your problem is that you seem to think that everything should be about you. That devs should only make games that appeal to YOU. Well, sorry, you're not the center of the damned universe. The world is moving forward, including gaming. So get over it. Stop ruining your games? So adding strong female, gay or black characters ruins your game? LOL Well that speaks volumes about you doesn't it?

I haven't played PC multiplayer in years, but I can assure you that on consoles maybe 10% of players use public voice chat, precisely because it's a surefire way to get into arguments with cretins. People are in party chat at all times. You hear someone speaking on public channels in all games, sure, but that's not "most people speaking". Most people don't use their mics. Not on consoles anyway.

What a load of nonsense. It's not feminists that aren't allowing developers to make the games they want, quite the opposite.

If you want a female in your game you have to fight quite hard for that, publishers don't want to risk making the game industries incredibly sexist, homophobic and sexually insecure audience feel uncomfortable.

Your claim is factually wrong. Stereotypes have been taken as truth time and time again. You can pretend that its not taken as fact but that changes nothing. In fact entertainment was used to create stereotypes of black americans and those stereotypes still linger and treated as fact to this day. For you to make such an erroneous claim that NOONE accepts it as fact and its just harmless banter is simply ignorance. I am baffled that you decided to take such an extremely incorrect version of reality. You are either in denial, pretending to be ignorant or you are just straight up ignorant. Neither situation is particularly good.

This argument is being brought up regularly, but I don't think it flies. Developers cannot do whatever they want; they are limited by publishers and audiences. Feminists are the least of their concerns when it comes to being free to make what you want.

These accidents do not take place on an equal footing. A man is generally stronger, more confident and more sexually assertive, which makes them a far bigger threat than women. And until men collectively show they can restrain themselves (which I do not see happening), that inequality will never go away. The scale on which men are being harmed by women is not equal to the scale on which women are being harmed by men. I consider myself very lucky to be man. If you really think men have it worse and women have it better, then you're being very selective in your perception. Men have themselves to thank that women are more likely to get the benefit of the doubt in DV and child abuse cases. And honestly, if there's a clear case, women will just as easily be sentenced as men. That doesn't mean men can't be a victim of questionable conduct or that men cannot be wronged by women, but if you turn this debate into a measuring contest you are going to lose. Rape, abuse, murder, pretty much all crimes; men will come out on top with quite a margin. And if you ask me, that's all because of the simple fact that men have the physical advantage over women. And because of that advantage men have the confidence and strength to outdo (or outmuscle) women in many tasks. But well, it also means that men will always be the bigger threat. Gender equality is an illusion.

I can imagine that all you see here is negative inequality, because you're not a man who would rape, murder, abuse or intimidate women. So in your case (and perception) things should be pretty equal and yet, you see women being favored in several cases. You see inequality in favor of women. But honestly, as long as crime statistics are not in your favor, as long as men are so much more of a threat than women, you're better off criticising your fellow men than complaining about these feminists. It's very hard for a lot of men not to think they are the dominant sex (especially since that idea is being reinforced pretty much everywhere) and it means women will generally have to struggle more to get to certain places. Women are easier to intimidate and they are more frequently required to adapt than the other way around. Men will always have a more dominating presence in general and women always have to find that balance between being capable of dealing with that themselves or requiring actual protection from male intimidation. And that balance is often seen by men as a conflict of interests: women apparently want to be strong and independent, but they also want to be the victim when it suits them.

I'm sure the majority of males in here wouldn't mind having a female boss, but if you look at the male population at large I think men are more likely to intimidate and test female superiors (and also co-workers) than they would male superiors (especially if a work space is dominated by men). And positive discrimation isn't really helping, because that just causes men to look at every woman (or any minority for that matter) with suspicion, meaning she first has to prove herself (preferably by doing better than average), often reinforcing the idea that women are being favored for the wrong reasons. But on the other hand, without positive discrimination men might just exert their physical advantage and muscle women out (through confidence and passive intimidation, which often has little to do with actual skills). The difficult thing is that men have very good reason to use their advantage. I mean, they have it, it makes it easier to obtain certain positions, so why wouldn't they use it? They want to do well and will use whatever advantage they have. Besides, they have to compete with other men. As a result I think that a lot of men (especially as a group) don't realise the pressure and intimidation they exert, which might create extra hurdles for women that men don't have to face and that causes women to not perform to their full potential. Especially in more individualistic societies, where personal success (even in group efforts) is very important, I think it is a significant advantage to be a man. I see a lot of men on forums saying that if you're good at something and you work hard, you will get where you want to be; that gender doesn't matter. But I don't think the amount of effort needed is entirely equal in that regard. I don't think it's impossible for women to get where they want to be, but I do think they generally have to deal with a lot more crap to get there.

These are not just problems for men to solve. A lot of women also uphold these traditional ideas, thinking they aren't capable of making it in certain areas, thinking men are too intimidating and will bully them away, thinking their only rightful place is in fact taking care of the children. It is up to both men and women to show that if you work hard, there's no reason to not get where you want to be. I think women could be more confident about their capabilities and I think men could be more willing to adapt a little when a woman enters 'their' area. Too often I hear people saying that you should just deal with (sexual) intimidation through (voice) chat or social media; too often I see people jumping to the defense of people who resort solely to name calling, just because they share the same opinion; too often I see pure insult and intimidation being justified as 'freedom of speech'. Those are all lazy attitudes, if you ask me, and they downplay (and even reward) that kind of behaviour; that kind of intimidation that is completely unnecessary and serves no purpose whatsoever (and is often associated with men). It's the kind of intimidation people say we should deal with, because it's the internet, because it's freedom of speech. But if some of these feminists get a little intimidating and direct people claim we should collectively oppose it. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Way too long, I know.

Forcing someone to stay quiet about something they don't agree with wouldn't be true harmony. It would be a facade to comfort the majority into thinking everything is happy and nothing is wrong.