Sony on 1080p/60fps debate: PS4 is the machine developers want

Sony says better performance on PlayStation 4 over Xbox One is because it's "performing and packing the punch that developers want."

The argument about the ability of the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One to render games at 60fps and 1080p has been one of the most heated subjects in the games industry over the past few months.

While few doubt the visual power of first-party titles such as Ryse and Killzone: Shadow Fall, more attention has been spent analyzing the performance of key third-party titles--Assassin's Creed IV, Call of Duty: Ghosts, and more recently Tomb Raider: Definitive Edition--on both machines, with analysts pointing to Sony's machine as more capable when it comes to both resolution and framerate.

In the past, Microsoft has come out and said that "these little things get way overblown" and that the quality of the machine's library is what's most important.

Xbox director of product planning Albert Penello was recently asked about the performance of Tomb Raider: Definitive Edition on the Gamertagradio podcast. "There's a frame rate thing going on with Tomb Raider, there is a resolution thing going on, and there's a lot of reasons why that could be true but we are weeks in, we just shipped, it's a long generation," he said.

"[PlayStation 4] is much easier to develop for, and it is performing and packing the punch that developers want."

"I think people who bought an Xbox One are going to be in for an awesome generation of games that are only going to get better," added Penello. "And an awesome generation of experiences. I think these little things get way overblown versus the quality of the games and the real differences in the two experiences, which are pretty minor."

But for Fergal Gara, Sony's UK marketing director, seeing this performance lead out of the gate is a realization of Sony's developer-friendly focus behind the PlayStation 4. The exec recounted the PS4's first public showing from February last year "when [lead system architect] Mark Cerny stood up and said 'I've spent five years listening to game developers, listening to what they want from the next-generation device, and I've done my damnedest to build that.'"

"A strong start is invaluable, but it definitely isn't the whole job."

Gara, thinks Cerny's "listening to game developers" message is key. "Never was a truer word spoken," he said. "It is as simple as that. [PlayStation 4] is much easier to develop for, and it is performing and packing the punch that developers want."

Sony's confident approach comes after it announced last week that it has currently sold 1.5 PlayStation 4's in the UK for every Xbox One, with Gara saying that Sony needed to "rediscover some grit" when it came to this generation of consoles.

When asked how Sony intends to keep the hardware ratio tipped in its favor, Gara said, "We came up with the right product at the right price, for the right core audience to get us off to a strong start. We think we've done that very, very well. But that's not the whole job. A strong start is invaluable, but it definitely isn't the whole job. At this stage in the PlayStation 3 life cycle versus Xbox 360, we hadn't even launched. We were 16 months behind."

"A lot can be achieved--million of consoles can be achieved--despite a poor start, and we certainly had that the last time around."

Written By

Hi! I'm Martin, for some reason or another I have managed to convince the people who run GameSpot that I am actually wor

Discussion

2674 comments
rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx


    
I have heard a lot of talk about RAM and GPU, but little on BUS arquitecture and CPU.

CPU:

PS4 = 8 core Jaguar processor. 1.6 GHz. 1 thread per core, and 2 ops per thread, for a total of 16 ops according to Sony.

X1 = 8 core CPU processor. 1.75 GHz. No detailed structure thus far, but Microsoft has confirmed that it performs 48ops total.

BUS:

PS4 = 3 Bus Pipelines. Onion, Garlic and Super Onion. These allow for HAS and Huma operations between processor and GPU in connection to the GDDR5 RAM.

X1 = 8 Bus Pipelines, 2x256 Bit Buses with 4 lanes each. One pipeline to the ODESRAM, and one to the DDR3 RAM. Additional Bus Pipelines to the CPU on both the DDR3 and the ODESRAM, as well as various Bus Pipelines to the Audio, Video, and Memory controllers and Kinect.

HDD:

PS4 = 500 GB Removeable. 5200 RPM.

X1 = 500 GB Permanent. 7200 RPM. + 8GB Flash Memory HDD.

AUDIO:

PS4 = Dedicated audio processor with bulk of processing directly on CPU/GPU.

X1 = Dedicated audio processor capable of processing almost all Audio and Kinect functions without using CPU/GPU resources.

MOVE ENGINES:

PS4 = None.

X1 = Move Engines are separate internal processing hardware that will allow the system to move data around without using CPU/GPU resources.

As you can see, the Xbox One can hold it's ground on a bunch of areas. This is why ultimately they are neck and neck I believe, each one having their strengths. And a person has to walk a lot to get from 16 treads (PS4 CPU) to 48 treads (X1 CPU).

And when developers get the hang of the hardware they can offload a bunch of data on those secondary systems the PS4 lacks which will bridge the gap on the textures/visuals side of things.

The PS4 is atm a whole lot easier to develop games for however, and that is why you are seeing such a difference in resolutions on some third party titles like BF4 and COD. Also, MS will be freeing up 8% of the Kinect resources eventually for devs which will help things out immensely.

wyan_
wyan_

The masses might not notice the console war so much and hardware sales might even out between Sony and Microsoft because of them, but for hardcores like me, Microsoft really fucked up releasing a weaker machine. Every time a multiplat I want performs better on the PS4, that's the version I'll be buying and it looks like I'll be doing that a lot this gen.

maybock3000
maybock3000

Well, it's good to watch Microsoft sweat a little, but it's not like Sony will be able to decapitate them completely. They will be elbowing each other for many years to come. The only difference this time around is Sony will finally be able to keep up the better pace with PC games at their highest settings ( which very few people are even able to achieve).

mischiefmeerkat
mischiefmeerkat

it's a flimsy excuse for M$ but it is largely true. A great game will still be great whether in 1080 or 720, 60fps or 30. And a crappy, boring game will be made no better by bumping up the resolution a notch.


But being that the Xbox is +$100 and supposedly better...and this is 2014, it's rather embarrasing that the XBone can't do 1080.

Foxhound1982
Foxhound1982

Am i the only one who couldn't care less what resolution a game displays? or the frame rate?. Why am i expected to care about such things? I just want a game to be enjoyable and addictive.

steelmouth
steelmouth

we've been here before with the X360 vs PS3, and as with the PS3 the PS4 is more powerful than the Xbox One but we all know how the much more powerful PS3 outsold the X360 right 

diggyphelps
diggyphelps

@rickphoenixxx  Why Xbots think Xbone will ever be able to match the PS4 graphically is beyond me...  You seem to think developers are going to optimize games for Xbox and not the PS4, which is foolish. Xbox will never match PS4 visually and saying so shows your lack of knowledge when it comes to the hardware's capability. MS made a terribly under powered system and now your hoping a uneducated theory of yours comes to pass. You are probably one of the fools running around saying the almighty CLOUD was going to make the graphics soooooooo amazing... GTFOOHWTBS

mattress805
mattress805

Hey, 2006 just called. They're welcoming you back with open arms. Lol

abaris1111
abaris1111

@Foxhound1982 then why buy next gen? 1080 should be standard at this point. 4k is the near future.

hairdie
hairdie

@Foxhound1982  thats because you are an idiot mate!. fact is resolution and fps do matter not because it looks prettier or even because its easier to play but because it shows us the HARDWARE LIMITATIONS and that these are already here for xbox. yeah sure theyll improve but by how much? and whats to say ps4 programmers wont get better? .at the end of the day xbox hardware sucks balls and is weakers than a pc graphics card from 2008

Vividnightmare
Vividnightmare

@Foxhound1982 You're not the only one and you're not expected to care. But graphics quality is a key aspect of a consoles raw power, raw power does mean better games can be made. Unless all you enjoy is retro games which is cool, but next gen isn't your direction anyway. But if you want things like Watchdogs and Project Cars to look their best, then you want the most horse power possible. Because it isn't just about looks, the GPU also handles a lot of physics today too. The more hardware you have, the more power you have to crunch AI, Physics and mechanics in general.

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

The PS3 and 360 are completely different. PS3 cell is a super power CPU that's harder to program. 360 is more pc like than PS3 and easier to program. PS4 and xbone have the same 86x architecture Same CPU same GPU architecture. The PS4 has more GPU cores 100% more ROPs much faster ram and less heavy OS Then xbone 720p

maltadirk
maltadirk

@steelmouth  Can't with agree with you man. Remember that even though PS3 was more powerful it was nightmare to develop for compared to the 360. Plus by the time PS3 console had launched the 360 had already launched games like Gears of War which gave Microsoft an incredible time advantages. That is not the case this time around.

This time around the PS4 is again more powerful, but more importantly is developer-friendly. Developers are using the same techniques and technologies as used on PC architecture. Looking back at PS3 we didn't see its technology being fully utilised until Killzone 2 and God of War 3 came out, both games which were developer by 1st party studios. With PS4 1st party and 3rd party developers have the same expertise for both PS4 and XboxOne.

To conclude, unless Microsoft come out with something revolutionary with the Kinect they should be very worried

thiagofali
thiagofali

@steelmouth  the difference is that ps3 was considerably more expensive than the 360 at the time.. now the weaker console is the most expensive.. LOL

rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx

@diggyphelps @rickphoenixxxWhat does Sony currently have out on the ps4 that looks better than Ryse? I've seen Knack and Killzone buddy, and that didn't impress me much. And you are not a dev so STFUAGTFO. If you think MS will continue to allow devs to half ass it and not optimize their games then apparently you don't know how deep their pockets are. There is a reason a huge game like Titanfall are ms exclusive($$$$$$). The cloud thing was bs, i'll give you that one. The ps3 was much, much stronger than the 360 on paper and how did that one turn out? These two black boxes are similar, and the games will always be as well. But let's say ps4 will always be 3-5% stronger which is my guess. It still has NO future external hard drive support( a 2tb usb drive is only 75-100 bucks) and that will make a big difference with 50gb mandatory game installs. I hate BOTH the new systems and BOTH MS and Sony and am not getting one of the new consoles for a while, but the bullshit I hear from fanboys about Sony's vast ps4 superiority makes me laugh. At least with a One I can have unlimited storage via external drives and not have worry about upgrading to an internal which makes the ps4's original worthless. A 3-5% hypothetical performance increase don't mean shit to me as much as storage flexibility. All these Sony ponies DO realize most pc's can handle 1080p and 60 fps without breaking a sweat right? Consoles and pc's are practically the same now with mandatory game installs and similar architecture. Why people think the ps4 is so amazing is beyond me, BOTH new systems are shit compared to midrange pc's and unless you just have to have a new forza or uncharted that's the way to go for the best looking games. Consoles are just toys, that's why I never pay more than 200 bucks for them.

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

rickphoenixxx

Believe in DA powha of "THE CLOUD" and secret sauce. Any minute now 95% of xboned games are in 720p 4% 900p and 1% 1080p

rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx

@hairdie @Foxhound1982No mate, you are the idiot. The systems are overall similar when everything is added up, John Carmack(an actual developer) already came out and said the systems are neck and neck and games will wind up performing similar on each console. The only reason The one is lagging a bit now is the 10% of kinect resources dragging it down. Once MS frees that up and developers figure out how to maximize the esram, you will see similar resolution and framerates in time on titles.

rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx

@evil_snuggles I''ll laugh heartily When GTA6 looks and plays EXACTLY the same on both. Why don't you just get a pc and pimp it out with a GTX 760 or something? All these console fanboys sound like pc enthusiasts nowadays, it's pathetic.

mattress805
mattress805

Exactly. The difference is is that the PlayStation 4 is more powerful, easier to develop for AND cheaper this time around. I feel good; I got two potential Xbox one buyers to switch over to PlayStation 4 this week. I simply explained the differences between the two and they were like "oh of course I'm gonna get the PlayStation 4, if that's the case."

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

Please stop with your opinions post a link that says That PS4 doesn't have a true dedicated sound chip . The information I have is the PS4 has a Great sound chip. The xBoned720 sound chip is could be more advice that the PS4 sound chip. Xbone was more about the Kincet than the GPU and memory system.

For Sony’s Playstation 4, this is all very good news indeed. Consoles have always heavily relied on their powerful dedicated processors (for Graphics) for example to help push games. Microsoft’s Xbox One also has a custom built audio processor – but that’s being used for many things, including kinect. For AMD’s Radeon graphic card they’re using the Tensillica audio DSP. All of PS4 games are in 1080p

http://www.redgamingtech.com/playstation-4-audio-dsp-based-on-amds-trueaudio-technology/

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

First I posted a link from vgleaks Not which is newer version of the article 27 Aug 2013. The PS4 has huma the Xbox One doesn't because as have explained multiple Time the xBoned720 doesn't not have unified memory . 95 present of xbone games are in sub 1080p. The only game that are not are sport in 1080p and they are less graphically intense type of games. You have misquoted the developers at techland they are targeting the game on PS4 and xboned720 to run at 1080p 60fps . The PS4 will and the xboned720 will not. Metal Gear Solid V Confirmed 720P on Xbox One, 1080p on PS4 a game that was target of 1080p 60fps but xboned720 is to weak. Dying light is running 1080p 60fps on PS4 it has not been seen running on xboned720 because it will not be in 1080p 60fps.

It may seem like a long time ago since we heard anything about the controversies surrounding certain games’ resolutions. This was highlighted by some titles like Call of Duty: Ghosts running on 1080p for PS4 and 720p on Xbox One. Now that both consoles are launched and the next wave of cross-generational titles is due next year, GamingBolt had a chance to speak to Techland, the studio behind the upcoming first person horror title Dying Light, about next-gen development.

We spoke to tech director Jakub Klarowicz about whether both the Xbox One and PS4 versions would run at 1080p and 60 FPS. He stated that, “It’s too early to tell. We aim to have the final game running at 1080p, 60 fps on both PS4 and Xbox One, Also the information I posted came from AMD website and Wikipedia my last post.

Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/dying-light-dev-targeting-1080p60fps-on-ps4-xbox-one-talks-current-next-gen-differences#R7cg2FZdVCl22clL.99

http://www.vgleaks.com/playstation-4-includes-huma-technology/

rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx

@evil_snuggles  

I think YOU should stop posting older links from extremetech that THEY admitted they got wrong in a following article a freaking week later. It's pathetic I used the exact same site to call you out on it and you, unlike them cannot admit you are wrong about. Anyone reading my last post would be like "wow what a goof, posting a link to and article to prove his point and that "point" being proved WRONG BY THE SAME SITE a week later". Try to read follow up's to your links before posting please lol. Soooo the ps4's sound chip is indeed inferior since it is not truly dedicated. A man who is married and cheating on his wife(mostly dedicated-ps4) is not the same thing as a married man who is married and not cheating on his wife(100% dedicated-xbox). The sky is not green, and the grass is not blue. And the X box can fucking do 1080p so i'm not understanding why you refer to it as 720p. EVERY PS4 game is certainly not 1080p either, that's a developer decision. The upcoming game Dying Light is going to be 1080p for BOTH consoles, so it is up to developers dude. As time goes on this will be the norm, not the exception. If all you can do is post links to me that I can quickly find corrections for, then you are one lame Sony Pony. I think it's hilarious you put so much faith in a company that's just as evil as micro$oft also, charging for online now. I actually like Sony a lil more to be honest this go around cause they aren't forcing a bundle with their camera and hell I may get a ps4 if it shows me something more impressive looking than Ryse....but sadly that's not the case at the moment. And you do understand neither MS and Sony could give two shits what we think right? Neither one is going anywhere, but they NEED people to think they are vastly different. They NEED devoted fanboys to buy their black boxes even though they are essentially the same thing. Chevy/Ford, Democrats/Republicans, Coke/Pepsi. All the same shit, just slight differences. And just like those companies, one needs the competition of the other to make even more money...brand loyalty. Whether Sony fucks over its supporters with a $600 console forcing a blu ray player on them(what if they already had one?) or Ms this time with mandatory Kinect, they will screw over people whenever they want. You think I didn't want to play the first Resistance game or Ridge Racer 7 when the ps3 came out? Hell yeah I did, but not for a damn $600 bucks. I got a 360 their because their focus was GAMES and not movies.

Sony tried to push their blu ray format down peoples throats just like MS is doing with the Kinect/tv input features now and that may piss me off enough to get a cheaper ps4 now. But the fact ps4 will never have installing games to an external usb drive as a feature and the One will is a game changer. The tiny sub-400gb drives in each console is weak when all games are huge in size. At least with the One you can expand, and not toss the original drive away for an internal 1-2 tb or so which actually makes the ps4 more expensive for any actual real gamer. 

But sorry, keep telling me about how Sony's black box will eventually pound MS's into the dust or whatever...("Yawn")

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

rickphoenixxx

Please stop you don't know what you are taking about you making yourself look like a fool. Maybe you should stop Google links trying to prove me wrong and start reading them. Also both PS4 and xboned720 have a dedicated sound chip what is our point. You obviously don't know what you're talking about Because the xBoned720 doesn't not have unified memory and therefore It's impossible to have Huma or heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access. Because xbone doesn’t not have Uniform Memory to begin with.pathetic

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

rickphoenixxx

No huma in xbone because the xBoned720 doesn't have unified memory. It has Esram that is a different pool of memory on the APU. Xbone might have Heterogeneous System Architecture (HSA) .Heterogeneous System Architecture (HSA) and heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access (hUMA) are two different things.

Uniform memory access (UMA) is a shared memory architecture used in parallel computers. All the processors in the UMA model share the physical memory uniformly. In a UMA architecture.

http://developer.amd.com/resources/heterogeneous-computing/what-is-heterogeneous-computing/

http://m.hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/54709-amds-heterogeneous-uniform-memory-access-huma-detailed/

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

No the xBoned720 doesn't have huma because it doesn't have unified memory Because of the Esram. No matter what you think or dream xbone doesn’t have Uniform Memory.

Uniform memory access (UMA) is a shared memory architecture used in parallel computers. All the processors in the UMA model share the physical memory uniformly. In a UMA architecture, access time to a memory location is independent of which processor makes the request or which memory chip contains the transferred data. Uniform memory access computer architectures are often contrasted with non-uniform memory access (NUMA) architectures. In the UMA architecture, each processor may use a private cache. Peripherals are also shared in some fashion. The UMA model is suitable for general purpose and time sharing applications by multiple users. It can be used to speed up the execution of a single large program in time critical applications.[1]

In April 2013, the term "hUMA" (for heterogenous Uniform Memory Access) began to appear in AMD promotional material to refer to CPU and GPU sharing the same system memory via cache coherent views. Advantages include an easier programming model and less copying of data between separate memory pools.[2]

hUMA (Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access) is a shared memory architecture used in APUs (Accelerated Processing Units). In a hUMA architecture, the CPU and the GPU (inside the APU) have full access to the entire system memory.

hUMA improves the performance and efficiency of the processor by enabling the CPU and the GPU to seamlessly share data. It also allows for easier GPU acceleration using familiar programming languages, which can result in significantly lower development costs for the creation of accelerated applications.

http://www.amd.com/US/PRODUCTS/TECHNOLOGIES/HSA/Pages/hsa.aspx#3

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

No the xBoned720 doesn't have huma because it doesn't have unified memory Because of the Esram. No matter what you think or dream xbone doesn’t have Uniform Memory.

Uniform memory access (UMA) is a shared memory architecture used in parallel computers. All the processors in the UMA model share the physical memory uniformly. In a UMA architecture, access time to a memory location is independent of which processor makes the request or which memory chip contains the transferred data. Uniform memory access computer architectures are often contrasted with non-uniform memory access (NUMA) architectures. In the UMA architecture, each processor may use a private cache. Peripherals are also shared in some fashion. The UMA model is suitable for general purpose and time sharing applications by multiple users. It can be used to speed up the execution of a single large program in time critical applications.[1]

In April 2013, the term "hUMA" (for heterogenous Uniform Memory Access) began to appear in AMD promotional material to refer to CPU and GPU sharing the same system memory via cache coherent views. Advantages include an easier programming model and less copying of data between separate memory pools.[2]

hUMA (Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access) is a shared memory architecture used in APUs (Accelerated Processing Units). In a hUMA architecture, the CPU and the GPU (inside the APU) have full access to the entire system memory.

hUMA improves the performance and efficiency of the processor by enabling the CPU and the GPU to seamlessly share data. It also allows for easier GPU acceleration using familiar programming languages, which can result in significantly lower development costs for the creation of accelerated applications.

Learn more about wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_memory_

rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx

@evil_snugglesIt's 10 bucks cheaper, so it has to be an inferior CPU compared to the One's(let it go). The Knack Box's Gpu is more expensive and therefore it is superior to the One's i'm not arguing that at all. And so maybe the One has 3 os's but it's still a fact(and not an opinion)that only the One has a dedicated sound chip.

And about only the Knack Box having hUMA well you are apparently misinformed on that one also chief. Again I must state, two nearly identical black boxes that cost about the same to manufacture.  The PS4 is just much easier to develop for that's it. Here is a link from Extreme tech RETRACTING their statement about how only the Knack Box will support hUMA. You know, a link you posted a ways back....haha. I'll include both links for comparison. See FACTS are sometimes only hypothetical and opinions can actually be just as accurate.

                                     - The old article -


http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/164557-ps4-will-use-its-unified-architecture-to-pound-xbox-one-into-the-dust-eventually


                                      -Updated one-


http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/164934-xbox-one-bus-bandwidths-graphics-capabilities-and-odd-soc-architecture-confirmed-by-microsoft

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

rickphoenixxx

Wow more of your opinions it's wonderful you have a opinions. But is see no facts to what you say please post links so I can read them to . Unlike you the world works on facts ever thing I have said is backed by facts not my options.

Post a link

Sony has a dedicated sound chip, but it pulls resources from the gpu and cpu just like my above post states.

Sony's cpu cannot be superior if it is 10 bucks less AND a slower speed.

Two different exclamations

First PS4 has a lighter OS xboned720 has 3 OS. OS take resources and slow down pc and game consoles

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-22/xbox-one-has-not-one-but-three-operating-systems.html

Second no one knows the PS4 CPU clock speed.

It has been reported by developers to be clocked higher than the xBoned720.

PS4 vs Xbox One: Clockspeed Battle Says PS4 Likely Ahead

The Playstation 4 is already released on the North American market and many are revealing the console to run on an AMD Jaguar CPU, clocked at 1.8GHz. Before the machine’s release, it was thought that the PS4 will run on a 1.6GHz CPU only. On top of that, it is the AMD Jaguar so we can see the PS4 capable of going to 2GHz since the CPU is built for that speed

http://motoringcrunch.com/news/ps4-vs-xbox-one-clockspeed-battle/1001651/

Foxhound1982
Foxhound1982

@evil_snuggles I didn't understand any of that. Can you repeat the part where you said the stuff about the things?

rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx

@evil_snuggles Good god, for the last time I claim no allegiance to sony or ms., I just can't stand hearing all this crap about how one console(the ps4) is vastly superior to another(Xbox One) when they both cost the same to manufacture. The xbox one's cpu cost $110 and the ps4's $100. The ps4's ram is worth like 60, and the one's is worth 38. Not sure how much the added esram is, but lets say 10-20 bucks i'm guessing. So take all the facts and figures and hypothetical "what if's" we throw at one another the fact remains they are the same cost to manufacture. And neogaf is junk, so slanted towards sony it's not even funny btw. And Sony's cpu cannot be superior if it is 10 bucks less AND a slower speed. That's like saying the gpu in the one is better, which it is not I agree. Sony has a dedicated sound chip, but it pulls resources from the gpu and cpu just like my above post states. No move engines for the ps4 either means the gpu will take a hit bc audio takes more resources than people think in games. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, get this through your thick skull please. And the games out currently are no long term indication of what either system will be able to achieve eventually, it's all just what if/what might/maybe/possibly. It's basically up to developers to make the most of each system, and Sony makes it a lot easier with the unified ram atm and nothing like the kinect sapping resources from it. Anyone saying either system has a huuuuge edge over the other is full of it and just hates either company. I come across many people that think the One is vastly better technically and I point out their bs also so i'm an equal opportunity corrector.  I like and dislike both Sony AND MS for different reasons. So painting me as anyone other than a person trying to call out bs and calling me silly names just makes you seem like a devout Sony fanboy "attacking" another side of a console war.

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

AMD: PlayStation 4 supports hUMA, Xbox One does not.

Although both upcoming game consoles Xbox One and PlayStation 4 are based on AMD hardware, only PlayStation 4 incorporates hUMA [Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access] for supporting a shared memory space. This was explained by AMD's Senior Product Marketing Manager Marc Diana to c't [big German IT magazine] at gamescom. This should put the 3D-performance of PlayStation 4 much farther ahead of Xbox One than many have expected so far. AMD sees hUMA as a key element for drastic performance improvements in combined processors. AMD's upcoming Kaveri desktop processors support hUMA as well.

On a classical system you have a RAM pool and a VRAM pool that are physically speperated. Copying data from one pool to the other creates latency. The GPU is very good ad hiding latency. What it needs most is high bandwidth. The CPU on the other hand is extremely sensitive to latency. The CPU needs extremely low latency to work efficiently. Copying data from the RAM (CPU) to the VRAM (GPU) creates latency, but that's okay for the GPU. Copying data from RAM (CPU) to VRAM (GPU) and back to the RAM (CPU) creates even more latency. It's too much for the CPU. The copying alone takes longer than the computation wich makes this roundtrip highly ineffective.

Xbox360 and older APUs have a unified RAM. This means that the RAM is no longer physically seperated, but even though it's the same RAM chips, the system still distincts between memory partition for the differenct processors. You still need to copy the data between CPU partition and GPU partition, but this will be much more efficient than copying it between physically seperated pools. But it's still too much latency for a CPU, GPU, CPU roundtrip.

PS4 will have hUMA wich means that you no longer need a distinction between CPU partition and GPU partition. Both processors can use the same pieces of data at the same time. You don't need to copy stuff and this allows for completely new algorithms that utilize CPU and GPU at the same time. This is interesting since a GPU is very strong, but extremely dumb. A CPU is extremely smart, but very weak. Since you can utilize both processors at the same time for a single task you have a system that is extremely smart and extremely strong at the same time.

It will allow for an extreme boost for many, many algorithms and parts of algorithms. On top of that it will allow for completely new classes of algorithms. This is a game changer.

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

PS4 is the only console that has huma. PlayStation 4 includes hUMA technology.

widely respected vgleaks.

8/23/13

We will try to clarify that Playstation 4 supports hUMA technology or at least it implements a first revision of it. We have to remember that AMD haven’t released products with hUMA technology yet, so it is difficult to compare with something in the market. Besides, no finished specifications are settled yet

PS4 has enhancements in the memory architecture that no other “retail” product has, as Mark Cerny pointed in different interviews. We will try to show the new parts in PS4 components in the next pages.

http://www.vgleaks.com/playstation-4-includes-huma-technology/

There is no conspiracy of AMD and PS4. Against your beloved Microscam. No the xBoned720 can't have huma because it doesn't have unified memory Because of your wonderful Esram xbone doesn’t have A unified memory pool.

The PS4 also has a advance dedicated audio chip.

http://ps4daily.com/2013/07/playstation-4-has-dedicated-audio-processor/

http://www.vgleaks.com/playstation-4-audio-processor-acp/

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

Where do I start

First don't give me your opinions facts please articles links. "XBONE720'S" strengths over the ps4 in CPU, Bus architecture , and dedicated audio.

PS4 and xboned720 CPU has been benchmark the PS4 CPU is faster.

Substance Engine shows PS4 CPU performing better than Xbox One's

At first when I saw this news, I kind of dismissed it and said "okay, only 2 extra MB/seconds", nothing much to report here. But after reading up on this some more, could this actually mean the the PS4's CPU could yield better performance than the Xbox One's?

Searching around, it seems the most plausible reasons were either the PS4 is clocked at the same speed as the Xbox One (1.75 ghz) and reserves only 1 instead of 2 cores for the OS resulting in the performance boost or the PS4 is clocked even higher than the Xbox One.

Over at GAF, a fellow named "Matt", apparently a developer/insider who is presently working with both next-gen consoles, gave the comment "Yes, you can get more out of the PS4's CPU than you can the Xbox's."

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=94264594&postcount=50

If this is true, this is news to me since I've always thought the Xbox CPU was clocked higher therefore performing better than the PS4's. If this is the case, basically the RAM, CPU and GPU are all in favour of the PS4?

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

Please link articles not your opinions facts please.

"XBONE720'S" strengths over the ps4 in CPU, Bus architecture ,

Substance Engine shows PS4 CPU performing better than Xbox One's

At first when I saw this news, I kind of dismissed it and said "okay, only 2 extra MB/seconds", nothing much to report here. But after reading up on this some more, could this actually mean the the PS4's CPU could yield better performance than the Xbox One's?

Searching around, it seems the most plausible reasons were either the PS4 is clocked at the same speed as the Xbox One (1.75 ghz) and reserves only 1 instead of 2 cores for the OS resulting in the performance boost or the PS4 is clocked even higher than the Xbox One.

Over at GAF, a fellow named "Matt", apparently a developer/insider who is presently working with both next-gen consoles, gave the comment "Yes, you can get more out of the PS4's CPU than you can the Xbox's."

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=94264594&postcount=50

If this is true, this is news to me since I've always thought the Xbox CPU was clocked higher therefore performing better than the PS4's. If this is the case, basically the RAM, CPU and GPU are all in favour of the PS4?

Also o

rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx

@evil_snuggles

@evil_snugglesYou know Cerny almost went with a setup in the ps4 nearly identical to the One's so it can't be that bad. And check this out:


UPDATE: I have added new info at the bottom of this post with more commentary from AMD (kind of).

You might have seen some reports in the last couple of days claiming that the upcoming Sony PlayStation 4 (PS4) will have a big advantage over the Xbox One thanks to its unique ability to support AMD's hUMA memory architecture.  hUMA, heterogeneous unified memory architecture, is an exciting new memory technology that AMD has built into upcoming APUs.

Josh published a story on hUMA that sums it as so:

The idea behind hUMA is quite simple; the CPU and GPU share memory resources, they are able to use pointers to access data that has been processed by either one or the other, and the GPU can take page faults and not rely only on page locked memory.  Memory in this case is bi-directionally coherent, so coherency issues with data in caches which are later written to main memory will not cause excessive waits for either the CPU or GPU to utilize data that has been changed in cache, but not yet written to main memory.

There's just one problem with these various reports (VR-Zone, ExtremeTech): they're INCORRECT.  After sending some emails to our representatives at AMD I was told that "Kabini doesn't support hUMA" which is the APU that both the PS4 and Xbox One processors are based on.  AMD further clarified with us:

Our spokesperson made inaccurate statements about our semi-custom APU architectures and does not speak for Microsoft, Sony or the AMD semi-custom business unit responsible for co-developing the next generation console APUs.


NOTE: I have had several people point out that it's possible Sony and Microsoft worked on their own custom memory architectures that will perform similar functionally to hUMA.  That is entirely possible but means that official hUMA support isn't on the SoCs.

UPDATE: AMD contacted me again to make another comment.  Essentially, they said that the correction statement to the original statement claiming hUMA was part PS4 was "inaccurrate" but that this correction does NOT mean the opposite claim is true.  Even when pressed for a more specific and debate-ending comment, AMD wouldn't give us any more information. 

So does the PS4 have support for some type of heterogeneous unified memory?  Maybe.  And the Xbox One?  Maybe.  At this point, I'd stop listening to anything AMD has to say on the subject as they are likely to recant it shortly thereafter.


I find it hard to believe that two console companies would pay billions of dollars to AMD and then allow AMD to keep part of its tech away from those companies especially when one of those companies is MS. Whose relationship in the console space has existed since before 2005. And who relationship in the x86 space with Windows has existed for far longer. 


And you should check out my post on here from yesterday going over the "XBONE720'S" strengths over the ps4 in CPU, Bus architecture , and dedicated audio. Those things don't get headlines like GDDR5 > DDR3!!!! and aren't well known but are still factors all the same when comparing machines.

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

rIckphoenixxx

I thought you Where one of the master beggars .

If Esram is so fast that why don't they use it in high end graphic cards or Graphic workstations for movies. Because a large pool of unified Ram is superior to small groups of Esram. Even AMD said That PS4 will always be faster than the xBoned720 because of HUMA . The only PS4 has HUMA AMD makes both APU in PS4 and xboned720. Huma mean the PS4 read memory twice as fast as possible on xboned720. educate yourself son.

According to AMD’s senior product marketing manager, Marc Diana, the PS4 is the only console that will support the company’s next-generation heterogeneous unified memory architecture (hUMA). When AMD announced hUMA earlier this year, it emphasized that it views the technology as essential to the future of high performance computing — and now it seems that the capability will debut on just one console.

This difference in capability is being touted as one reason why the PS4 is reportedly seen as far ahead of the Xbox One in terms of its raw performance. German IT magazine C’t, which spoke with Diana, also states that numerous developers believe the PS4 is far ahead of the Xbox One on raw compute power.

The end goal of allowing CPU and GPU to share main memory pointers and data directly sounds simple.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/164557-ps4-will-use-its-unified-architecture-to-pound-xbox-one-into-the-dust-eventually

rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx

@evil_snugglesThe One is capable of achieving the same if not better bandwidth, but it will take devs optimizing the memory loading and caching for using the smaller amount of esram. Ps4 is using a model similar to current pc's of today so I think with pc ports especially is why it has an edge on the one atm. BUT once developers come up with reusable methods that take away the complexities of using the esram then we will see similar results across the two systems. Also DX11 has some features like tiled resources that are probably way too new for most engines to incorporate that heavily benefit the One's architecture.

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

Yes how can I forget about 32MB of Esram. You are a suppose a PC aficionado. 32MB of Esram is to small not big enough for 1080p gaming. 32MB of Esram is enough for two frames at 1080p but not enough for advance anti alias Or higher fillrates . Games will be more technically advance in the future and detailed not less.

rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx

@evil_snuggles Explain to me how someone who owns every ps system except the new one can possibly be an xbot? My fave console of all time is actually the ps2, some true classics like Shadow of the Colossus and DMC 3 on there.  Pretty sure no one cares what the f#ck you or me think, we are not actual game developers and industry icons. Alot of Joe Schmoe's like yourself have an attitude of superiority about your "hypothetical" knowledge and at the end of the day, it's about the actual games. I have played both the ps4 and x.b.one(friend has both the new systems) and Killzone was the second best looking game, behind Ryse. If the ps4 is faaaar superior, why is this? The day may come where I eat my words and a new God of War makes a new Gears of War look like Rubbish, but until then it is what it is. You did not build EITHER console, so you have no clue what their actual true capabilities are or how they are overall balanced. And with such weak ass cpu's both are using, even if a unified pool of 8gb gddr5 ram is superior to 8gb of ddr3 ram PLUS 32mb of ESRAM(everyone forgets about this?) it won't matter much seeing as how the cpu will be a bottleneck either way. And the X's cpu is a lil faster btw but not by much. 

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

rickphoenixxx

You love john carmack So much Even John Carmack says this, although I thought it was common knowledge, a lot of my fellow pc gamers seem to not understand this.

Here is John himself saying it on his twitter feed

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/50277106856370176

So even John Carmack, the man responsible for huge PC gaming innovations confirms it. A part used in a console has twice the efficiency of the same part used in a PC, as the PS4 is coded to the metal.

Therefore, you need a 3.68 teraflop GPU to equal the optimized 1.84 teraflop GPU in PS4.

At the end of the day, you have to spend more than the price of the whole PS4 console just for a 7970 GPU (2x 7850's power) to match the optimized PS4 GPU. Then you have to add in the cost of all the other things a PC needs to build one.

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

rickphoenixxx

You are so lame you are a xbot .This is the second time on this same post you have misquoted John Carmack. Yes he said that the PS4 and xbone are similar. Yes same CPU and GPU architecture Same 86x architecture. Differents PS4 more cores . 100% ROPs than xBone . Gddr5 is more than 2 x times as has faster than ddr3. Number 2 who f#ck cares what John Carmack Thinks.

rickphoenixxx
rickphoenixxx

@evil_snuggles I'm just saying you sound like a member of the "PC master race" when discussing consoles. Graphically consoles will never, ever have anything on a well built gaming rig that's just a fact. Consoles are for fun and convenience and going crazy about specs just makes you sound like you need to build a 1,000+ pc. Whenever I play my ps2 I don't think about how many teragigahubbubba flops it has, I just enjoy the hell out of the games. I guess at some point consoles just became more about their internal parts and not about the actual games available for them and that shit is sad. If all you care about is "specs" then get a Titan GPU and play Crysis 3 on the highest settings until your eyes bleed lol.

evil_snuggles
evil_snuggles

News flash you cannot play GTA 5 on pc. So knowing the hardware of a PS4, PS3,X1 and 360. Some how that Make me sound like pc enthusiasts that Is a stretch dude. Wow pc fanBoys make me laugh they need attention badly me to me look at me look at me . You really want to my attention. Go away pc is a huge waste of time and money there performance vs price ratio is a joke vs PS4 slightly different resolution and frame rates for 3X the price.