I really don't understand. I generally am the first to have stuff to complain about when it comes to most games but honestly, I just don't get the issue.
I think it looks great. I think the voice acting is perfect, particularly Troy Baker and Nolan North.
I actually was EXTREMELY happy they didn't just try to mimic the MCU. It would have be terrible because they never would have pulled it off.
Also, the scene between Stark and Banner talking about how the failed him... That gave me a lot of hope for the story and the voice acting. That scene felt real in a way most games can't manage.
I think most are just used to the MCU and that isn't a realistic expectation. Again, I am really glad they didn't go that way because they would have had to hire actors to mimic their voices and it would have been BAD. Also, Robert Downey Jr is not Iron Man. As much as the first Iron Man is by far my favorite MCU movie, he is an actor playing Iron Man. The character existed before him. It will exist after him.
From what I have seen so far, looks like something I will be picking up next year.
I agree with most of what was said but honestly I think you guys are still pulling your punches a bit.
This episode, from a story / character perspective, was garbage. Not bad, but terrible.
Here is the thing, every major issue I had, I didn't dislike it happening, I disliked the WAY it happened.
1. Varys decides to tell everyone about Jon. Yep, that makes sense. However, the clever / sneaky / intelligent Varys has left the building and what is left looks like Varys, talks like Varys, but does not in any way act like Varys. Had he been working his Varys magic and been clever when Tyrion betrayed him, it would have been fine. But instead, it seems even the Unsullied knew he was up to something....
2. Tyrion betrays Varys and remains loyal.Again, not a terrible way for things to go. But why is he so loyal to her? He proclaims his loyalty, but what has she ever done to earn that from him. He is also supposed to be one of the most intelligent people, and yet can't see her for what she is despite REPEATED evidence showing she can't be trusted, and more than one character straight up telling him she can't be trusted. Yet, a character he actually owes his life to, a character who helped him multiple times, he betrays for his queen. At least sell it more. Why does he care about her so much? Lets have some character development of him agonizing over what to do. Or maybe make him less aware of how bad she is becoming, because it is clear, Tyrion knows she is a problem. Yet, he remains loyal because....reasons?
3. Jon hangs out while Varys gets torched without a word (and in the following scene has an intimate moment with Dany).So Varys, who tells people the same secret Jon could not keep himself, dies for that secret. And then Jon, the guy who befriended his enemies, who is so honorable he couldn't even lie to Cersei, and who stuck his neck out to put an arrow in The King of the Freefolk because he was being burned alivedidn't protest AT ALL. He just stood there, seemingly oblivious to the fact that HE DIRECTLY lead to Varys death. Varys being killed by Dany makes sense. However, based on the character Jon has been up until this point, it makes zero sense for him to be only mildly concerned about this whole event.
4. Arya, who has been wanting to kill Cersei the entire series, after a few sentences from the hound, decides, nah, I would rather not die her / become that.Again, it's fine that she ultimately decides not to, but it should be due to more than a few lines from the hound. There should have been moments of doubt or a realization that her family needed her more than she needed to kill Cersei, or ....something. Something to explain how this stubborn strong character suddenly abandon her entire goal in life.
5. Jamie goes back to Cersei.This almost makes sense, but it's difficult to understand why he would betray her and leave Kings Landing, then hang out in the North for a bit and get involved with Brienne, only to suddenly realize he must get back to Cersei and ditch his character arc. Again, it almost makes sense, but sell it a little more. Moments where he struggles not to go back, or if he heard news, we could see his expression that would give us a window into his decision to go back to her.
6. Cersei suddenly becomes human and fears for her child.OK this one I can't really get behind on any level. Earlier in the series, Cersei had more depth. Go back and watch the episodes with Joffery where you can see her struggling with what he is, and trying to figure out how to reign him in. Even as the series carries on (beyond the books), she generally has motivations for everything she does. Yet, in episode 4, with the ability to wipe most of them out, including Tyrion, she does not take it. She hangs out in the Red Keep even after she has clearly lost. She doesn't do anything smart or clever that we have seen her do in the past. She just hangs out until she can be replaced by a new "bad queen" and then turns into a human concerned about her child. Also, what was the point of the child besides to humanize her? It's a really weird plot point to be introduced and really have nothing come of it.
7. OK the big one. Daenerys goes from unstable to full Mad Queen, ditching much of her past character development.She has been a savior of the innocent for most of the series. She had her primary goal, but she went out of her way to save people. She waved the group of women in season 1. She saved all of the slaves. She was extremely upset when she passed the children nailed to signs. She cares deeply for those that she has saved and that follow her. Yet, she doesn't just decide to charge the Red Keep, but decides that she must murder everyone in the city, specifically going out of her wait to kill families and children? Her character now has zero depth. She is completely one dimensional. Why did she do everything? She is crazy. It's in her blood. I am no doubt it is how the show was supposed to end, and it is a good ending, but written in a COMPLETELY unbelievable way. She goes from unstable straight into murderous rampage simply by looking at a building. While there is build up to the moment, the degree she snaps does not make any sense. Had she just charged the keep and killed many innocents with collateral damage, sure that would have made sense. Everyone would still be angry, and know she couldn't be trusted. Would it have been AS EASY to paint her as the Villian that has to die? No (and how Game of Thrones like that would be, to have grey area). Instead, we know she is a monster. Not a flawed human, but a crazy monster that has to be dealt with.
Plot Holes :
- How did they manage to kill a dragon at a distance so far that Dany apparently can't even see the fleet of ships (....) last episode, and yet this episode, they can't hit ANYTHING. Hell, most of them can't even figure out how to shoot the thing. The majority of the Scorpions she burns, are surrounded by people just standing around, as if they hadn't noticed the dragon setting everyone on fire.
- The Mountain obeys every command for a few seasons now, and then suddenly does whatever he wants? Also, he can survive a dagger to the brain, and yet is apparently mentally aware enough to have the sight of his brother break him free of whatever hold Quyburn has over him?
- Euron randomly shows up on shore and Jamie happens to be sneaking by? Alright... And he wants to kill Jamie because... he can?
Ultimately, it's clear what has happened. Martin gave them the major plot points. As they passed the books, a team of writers that took most scenes straight from the books, had start writing everything themselves. And while they knew what had to happen, they didn't really know how to get there. So they filled in the blanks the best they could, trying to come up with the best motivations they could to make the characters get there. It wasn't natural though. Furthermore, the time limitation means they had to rush. So it all ends up feeling like you are reading the cliff notes to the ending of Game of Thrones. We find out what happens, but not why, and not even really how (at least, not how we got to this point).
@izraal: So to be clear, your justification for her acting the way she did is that all of the character development we have seen for her in the past seasons was an act, and not real. The Real Daenerys just wanted to murder everyone all along?
@monkyby87: Where in the show does it explain why she would abruptly decide that specifcally killing large amounts of innoccents, including children, would be totally fine.
If she had charged the Red Keep and many innoccent people had died, sure, that was forshadowed. It was clear that she was willing to make sacrifices to get what she wanted. She clearly had an easy time justifying her actions for the greater good.
But instead of charging Cersei and killing her, she started doing strafing runs wiping out everyone in the city. She specifcally killed families, children...everyone. It gained her nothing. It did not help her achieve a goal. It isn't like Cersei cared about those people so it didn't hurt her. She did it because.... Crazy?
Think back to the earlier seasons and how upset she was passing the children the Masters had killed. She cared so much for the people, and now suddenly, does not care about people at all. The only possible reason given, is that they don't like / trust her. And apperently we are supposed to believe that is enough of a motive for her to try to murder them all.
This was done to more easily sell the Mad Queen angle, and make it more black and white when someone tries / does kill her. And that is also why so many fans are so upset with these last few seasons. The earlier episodes and books had a TON of grey area. Characters with a lot of depth. This is all extremely simplified, paint by numbers story telling.
As far as CG costs, the show runners have discussed several times that they have made story choices to save on CG costs. I believe it was battle of the bastards where they wanted to have include the giant, so they couldn't afford to also include Ghost. I believe they likely wrote Ghost out to save on the CG budget to animate him. One dragon is also going to be easier than two.
Dragonstone and King's Landing are nearby. But you are right, I misspoke. Still, you are going South, Dragons are your biggest threat, and they had built the previous version of the scorpions that did wound a dragon. Would she really not expect them to be working on something else? Also, would you not be cautious when flying back to Dragonstone, a place you have no reason to believe is still safe?
Also, on the distance issue. If Drogon is out of range, then there is no way Rheagal should have been in range. And if Rheagal was in range, Dany should have seen the ships as she approached. If you have the best view, you should be paying attention. Furthermore, Cersei obviously was using scouts to know they were all coming, why weren't Dany's forces?
Just like the events of episode 3, where all military tactics were thrown out the window (suicide charge into the darkness, artillary used randomly, and not placed properly, archers firing randomly, etc), this episode ignores logic in favor of moving the story where they need it to go. And if you can enjoy that, good for you. I wish I could. Unfortunately, the first 4 seasons or so do such a good job of building up these characters, and making them act in logical / clever ways, that it is a struggle to accept they have suddenly become far less intelligent and aware, now that the stakes are so high.
@dunkstar1: While I can agree that the idea of a marriage fixing everything is flawed, as it doesn't actually address the bigger problem, the Dragon death was simply bad writing.
Dany is high enough for the fleet to see her, so she should be able to see them assuming she is paying attention. If she can't see them, they can't see her.
One of her dragons had been hit by one of those ballistas before. So, if you are flying into the city where that weapon was created, why would you not assume they have more defending the city?
There is no way that Cersei would not have known they were coming. Not only do you have scouts for exactly that reason, but ships do not approach suddenly. You see them coming. Dany and her army would have to assume that cersei would know they were coming.
Additionally, after the dragon is dead, and Dany goes to the gates, and they have every ballista aimed at the remaining dragon, why not fire? Why not kill the dragon and then Dany and Tyrion. Cersei has zero honor, so it isn't that. She is cold and calculating. Particularly if you think about her character's motivations, why would she not just kill them while she had the chance. There is absolutely no downside.
All of these events, including much of episode 3, only serve to move the plot where the writers want it to go. They are ignoring logic and their characters in favor of set up (and eliminating CG costs...). It is bad writing.
I will say, this episode was at least better than episode 3. The directing was far better in my opinion, with characters portraying degrees of subtext. In particular, Emilia Clarke did a fantastic job with what she was given. You could see the crazy building even in fairly calm scenes. The scene with Jon in his room was particularly well done, with layers to her actions and words.
@Barbowan: Not going to go through everything, but want to call out one main point. Your AI style consciousness could almost make sense, except that we see the Night King act outside of what is the most logical way to complete his mission. What is the most effective way to destroy Winterfell? Use the dragon to inflict serious damage. Why does he so patiently walk to the Godswood? Why does he not let the dead just kill Bran? Why does he slowly walk up to Bran to have a moment to.... what, enjoy his victory? If he is about completing the mission, the easiest solution is to fly in the with the dragon and blow Bran up. Done. Hell, in a couple episodes he basically smirks at Jon as he raises corpses.
The Night King is very much a character, a character that they have suggested in both the show and in the books, to have more depth. Depth they just glossed over for the sake of finishing out the story.
See, when I go see a movie, I dont really care who is in it. I selfishly am only concerned if the movie is good rather than the race of the people playing the part. So thank you for making sure to keep track of these movies and make sure we are getting the RIGHT races in the roles and enough of them.
I do have some questions though on how we make sure we stay on the right track.
How many of each race is the right number? Percentage or number work. I think as important as it is to make sure we represent properly, we need to know when we have reached that point so we know when race X is over represented and they cant have any more roles.
Also, if other countries are, for example using asian actors to tell stories that were not written for asian characters, how do we handle that? I mean, on one hand I understand that in Japan most of the avtors would be Japanese but obviously it would be unacceptable for them to tell a story about American Cival War or the French Revolution with Asian actors.
Also, what do we do if you cant tell the race of someone? I am guessing we just leave them out of movies and TV just to be sure?
And another big question, what if they are only half Asian? Can they still play an Asian roll? What about a quarter, or an eighth? Or maybe they are half asain, but half african american? I guess what are the rules?
/sarcasm
Racism : racial prejudice or discrimination
We are quick to call anyone complaining about the battlefield series historical inaccuracies as racist, but yet we think its fine to break down the race of everyone in movies and decide if they are right or wrong.
Its also absurd that the people who believe they are progressive, are the ones that judge people more than anyone else based on the color of their skin.
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