@Lord_OfThe_Sith @Darth_Ultima @banana23man @augmira @wowgrandpa @Nafe This incidentally is completely separate and apart from any argument over whether or not God exists.

@Lord_OfThe_Sith @Darth_Ultima @banana23man @augmira @wowgrandpa @Nafe Yes correct. People killed each other during the Crusades. Religion has been misused on all sides to support bloodshed. From the Crusades to 911 and surely into the future.

And atheistic states have also engaged in massive killing and oppression, from Stalin to Mao to Hitler to smaller despots in their smaller kingdoms like Pol Pot and Castro.

There is no winning a finger pointing argument on this score. The common denominator is that evil people will use whatever tactic they think best to accomplish their evil ends. If they think appealing to religion and twisting it will work, then that's the way they will go. If they think suppressing and stamping out religion will work, they'll go that way instead.

@wowgrandpa @augmira I'm not sure what you're trying to say but most Christians are not white ... or male.

@banana23man @augmira @wowgrandpa @Nafe No on can deny that, in addition to being a driving force behind charities worldwide, people have also misused religion to evil ends.

The common denominator in such evil, though is people, not religion.

An atheist, MAO TSE TUNG (he outlawed religion in China) murdered 100 million of his own people (see the book MAO by Jung Chang a survivor of the Cultural Revolution for detail on that)- the largest genocide in the history of mankind (more than ten Hitlers; and Hitler himself in addition to killing Jews intimidated Christians. It was his goal to wipe out all religion and replace it with pure Nationalism, no authority but the State).

So if you want to talk about evil, there is plenty to go around whether people are misusing religion to support their views or are atheists stamping out religion because they see it as a threat to their authority.

@Lord_OfThe_Sith @Nikz1 I'm not disagreeing with you at all.

@banana23man It was a letter published in the journal discussing a poll, not a scientific study. Many of those people I listed are alive today. But your point is taken. Those who value logic above all else, and only believe what is proven to them scientifically, are not going to be religious. But not all intelligent people - and not even most intelligent people (according to an MIT poll) - circumscribe valuable experience that narrowly. Even Einstein, who did not believe in a personal god, did believe in something divine about the universe, and shunned the label atheist. No one but Einstein will ever know what the contours of his beliefs were, but he did not subscribe to a world of logic and only logic. Religious experience is not about cold logic; it is not something you can conjure with a calculator. If you believe that logic is all, the beginning and the end of everything, then you will not be religious. Period. And that's fine for you. Heck I love Sherlock Holmes! But if you believe that there is something of value outside of the realm of pure logic, you may be spiritual, you may be religious. I was simply taking exception to the statement - not made by you - that religious people by definition must not be intelligent.

@Lord_OfThe_Sith @Nikz1 Thanks actually writing something intelligent in this forum that's mostly been dedicated to knee-jerk comments.

I thought Copernicus had invented that theory, so thanks for that. How did he end up getting all the credit?

I don't dispute that he was afraid of being punished for his theory -- I was just making the point that he was religious.

@theend3r @Nikz1Actually historically and TODAY, many religious people are actually moving understanding of the world and of the universe forward.

Here is a list of a few of them: Gerhard Ertl (who won the Nobel Prize in chemistry; he is still living)) Charles Townes (who won the Nobel Prize in physics) he is still living; Robert Bakker (who discovered that some dinosaurs were warm blooded, not cold blooded) he is still living; William Phillips (who won the Nobel Prize in physics) he is still living. And historically, Pascal, Copernicus (who discovered the sun, not the Earth, is at the center of the solar system); Kepler (discovered the laws of plantary motion), Isaac Newton (of gravity fame); Max Planck (Nobel prize in physics); and Heisenberg (of uncertainty principle fame).

The list goes on and on, of both living and dead religious intellectuals and scientists.

To the person (or people) who said religious people are not intelligent. A few religious people: Gerhard Ertl (who won the Nobel Prize in chemistry; he is still living)) Charles Townes (who won the Nobel Prize in physics) he is still living; Robert Bakker (who discovered that some dinosaurs were warm blooded, not cold blooded) he is still living; William Phillips (who won the Nobel Prize in physics) he is still living. And historically, Pascal, Copernicus (who discovered the sun, not the Earth, is at the center of the solar system); Kepler (discovered the laws of plantary motion), Isaac Newton (of gravity fame); Max Planck (Nobel prize in physics); and Heisenberg (of uncertainty principle fame).

The list goes on and on, of both living and dead intellectuals and scientists.

@Shanks_D_Chop @Nikz1 I agree! I'm gladly finally to agree with something on this page.