TOUGH REALITY check about pre owned games business...

Pre owned games business is detrimental to the industry let me explain why:

1. Person X buys game A....

2. X sells it to GAME store.

3. GAME sells it to person Y.

3 Y sells it BACK to GAME.

4. Game sells it to Z.

Now we have X Y and Z ALL playing game A. How much publisher B got from this deal? THE PRICE OF ONE FREAKING GAME £50....How much did GAME store make? At least £70....

Now TAKE PRE OWNED SALES OUT OF THE PICTURE:

X paid £50 plus £50 from Y plus another £50 from Z.

How much did publisher B make? £150.

DISCLAIMER

The above practice is LEGAL. OPERATES in BROAD daylight in high street shops. Thus its TOLERATED, NOT persecuted and NOT stigmatized.

As opposed to piracy...

Um, what's your point?

Yeah, second-hand sales are legal. Thankyou capitalism.

Difference: used game sales are legal.

Difference: used game sales are legal.

PBSnipes

..

So is cannabis in Holland...True_Gamer_

Uh, point?

Um, what's your point?

Yeah, second-hand sales are legal. Thankyou capitalism.

FrozenLiquid

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Um, what's your point?

Yeah, second-hand sales are legal. Thankyou capitalism.

True_Gamer_

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"]So is cannabis in Holland...PBSnipes

Uh, point?

Who's to say that every game is worth $60? If everyone who ever wanted to play games had to pay that much, without even getting to try it out first or being able to return it if they don't like it, a lot less new games would be sold. And don't talk about game demos because they aren't a real representation of the whole game.

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"][QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Um, what's your point?

Yeah, second-hand sales are legal. Thankyou capitalism.

alextherussian

Who's to say that every game is worth $60? If everyone who ever wanted to play games had to pay that much, without even getting to try it out first or being able to return it if they don't like it, a lot less new games would be sold. And don't talk about game demos because they aren't a real representation of the whole game.

Bigboi500

Rent

Legal =/= beneficialTrue_Gamer_

Why on Earth would you use cannabis as an example of legal =/= beneficial?

But I digress. Are you seriously arguing that laws like the first-sale doctrine aren't largely beneficial?

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

Who's to say that every game is worth $60? If everyone who ever wanted to play games had to pay that much, without even getting to try it out first or being able to return it if they don't like it, a lot less new games would be sold. And don't talk about game demos because they aren't a real representation of the whole game.

True_Gamer_

Rent

Has the RRP of games been changed to £50?

I never seen them go above £40.

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"] Legal =/= beneficialPBSnipes

Why on Earth would you use cannabis as an example of legal =/= beneficial?

But I digress. Are you seriously arguing that laws like the first-sale doctrine aren't largely beneficial?

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

Who's to say that every game is worth $60? If everyone who ever wanted to play games had to pay that much, without even getting to try it out first or being able to return it if they don't like it, a lot less new games would be sold. And don't talk about game demos because they aren't a real representation of the whole game.

Bigboi500

Rent

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Um, what's your point?

Yeah, second-hand sales are legal. Thankyou capitalism.

True_Gamer_

Piracy isn't justified. It may perhaps be a repercussion of capitalism, but it's not a justification.

Hey, next time you download a TV series, or download a movie, or rent a movie from a store, or use an instant streaming service for movies, you can be the bigger man and pay that particular movie studio (and the film production company) a share of the money from your enjoyment, because they don't receive a share of the profits (I can attest from first hand experience).

Likewise, the next time you buy a house, don't just pay the real estate agent and the previous owners, track down whoever built the house and pay them too. Same with your car. Same with anything else you buy second hand.

If you want to do it for games, you do it for every other consumable. Sound good?

The idea that I shouldn't be able to sell my games when or buy used games whenever I want is absurd. I don't see Paul McCartney whining that I bought the While Album from a used record store. I don't see George Lucas whining that I picked up Revenge of the Sith from a used DVD store. I don't see Stephen King whining about used book sales. Gaming is no different from any other art form. These developers cannot punish us for exercising our property rights, guaranteed by the First Sale Doctrine. The publisher is only entitled to what profits are made by the first sale of a given item. What happens to it after that initial sale is none of their damned business, just like Ford isn't going to see a dime if I want to sell my 1999 Escort.savebattery

Or my '97 Escort for that matter :P

I buy most of my games used, and it doesn't bother me one bit

I buy most of my games used, and it doesn't bother me one bit

popopatrol

EULA sais otherwise...and Ive proved its detrimental effect in my OP...True_Gamer_

EULAs and the like are a very grey legal area and have been known to falsely claim all sorts of rights.

You've proven one detrimental aspect of used sales. I could prove several detrimental aspects of curing cancer, but that doesn't mean curing cancer itself would be detrimental.

Thats the way the world works :| by listening to their publishers bleet on yu are being brainwashed into wanting your rights taken away from you. Video games were more profitable than any other media from a ratio of money put in to what was returned last gen, stop and use your brain do you think they are less profitable now? or is it maybe because all these giant corporations have bought our favourite development teams for tens of millions and now want to bleed some of that money back out of them?

As opposed to piracy...True_Gamer_

I think I speak for a lot of people ( I might be wrong:P) when i say we have no problems spending money on games we thinik are worth it, Heck I am going to rebuy mass effect 2 and dragon age origins on the ps3 even though I have both on the xbox 360. Vanquish and Fallout 3 have already been pre ordered and more impaotantly I would NEVER trade these games. The best cure for the used game market is for publishers to make good games end of story. If your game is not to my liking ( cough castlevania cough cough) You better belive I aint buying brand new and If i find it second hand Im buying it.

Um, what's your point?

Yeah, second-hand sales are legal. Thankyou capitalism.

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"]As opposed to piracy...MoonMarvel

Dude Ive been meaning to ask you for ages but what the hell is that show in your sig if its even a show?...it reeks of awesomeness

Put it this way. Would you rather pay £30 for the collectors edition of ME2 that may still have all the codes + plus the extra stuff if your lucky and is in great condition. Or £30 for the brand new standard edition which even if the codes in the collectors edition are used, still comes with less. Which one? both are the same price.

Games are way too expensive. In my case your equation is flawed. I'm going to be gamer A.

Gamer A buys game used for cheap

Dev recieves 0 dollars.

*A new law is passed that says used games are illegal.*

Gamer A doesn't buy expensive games, and reads a book instead.

Dev recieves 0 dollars.

See either way the dev is getting screwed.

[QUOTE="musalala"]

[QUOTE="MoonMarvel"] As opposed to piracy where nobody gets anything. At best it equals 1 sale. The fault here is Person X loses the copy, so does person Y. Piracy... 1. Person A buys a game from Store A 2. Person A uploads for others to download 3. Person B,C,D and E all download it...FOR FREE. (Opposed to your situation where they PAID FOR IT) 4. Person E chooses to upload it somewhere else 5. Person F,G and H download it...(Again not paying for it) The trick? Person E didn't pay for it, pirates could be getting a copy from someone who didn't pay for it, meaning sometimes games change hands where nobody paid for it. THATS why it is looked down upon. Used games = You paid for it Piracy = You didnt' There is NO shame in used game sales, most of all when some of these are out or print and used game sales is the only LEGAL way to get them. By the way, the publisher didn't make 150 bucks the store did. The store buys the new game from the publisher, meaning the publisher already got their money BEFORE you bought it.MoonMarvel

Dude Ive been meaning to ask you for ages but what the hell is that show in your sig if its even a show?...it reeks of awesomeness

Ahhh ok

I understand how the TC feels, but it's like being a vegetarian and refusing to go all vegan: You don't eat meat or eggs, but you'll drink milk. It still comes from an animal.

Likewise, I highly doubt that you've never owned a used car, bought something from a thrift store or yard sale, or waited for a movie or game to drop in price before picking it up. I'm all about supporting good devs, but used sales are just part of the industry. In fact, part of MOST industries.

In the end, the ones speaking loudest against used sales and piracy will always be the musicians, movie studios, and companies that don't see a lot of sales in the first place. If your product is inferior to other similar products on the market it's easy to point the finger and blame used sales and piracy.

If there aren't a lot of first sales, chances are there weren't subsequent ones either.

[QUOTE="MoonMarvel"][QUOTE="musalala"]

Dude Ive been meaning to ask you for ages but what the hell is that show in your sig if its even a show?...it reeks of awesomeness

musalala

Ahhh ok

oh gawd watch out, now you wont ever be able to get their songs out of your head

gee gee gee baby baby.....

Pre owned games business is detrimental to the industry let me explain why:

1. Person X buys game A....

2. X sells it to GAME store.

3. GAME sells it to person Y.

3 Y sells it BACK to GAME.

4. Game sells it to Z.

Now we have X Y and Z ALL playing game A. How much publisher B got from this deal? THE PRICE OF ONE FREAKING GAME £50....How much did GAME store make? At least £70....

Now TAKE PRE OWNED SALES OUT OF THE PICTURE:

X paid £50 plus £50 from Y plus another £50 from Z.

How much did publisher B make? £150.

DISCLAIMER

The above practice is LEGAL. OPERATES in BROAD daylight in high street shops. Thus its TOLERATED, NOT persecuted and NOT stigmatized.

As opposed to piracy...

True_Gamer_

Pre owned games business is detrimental to the industry let me explain why:

1. Person X buys game A....

2. X sells it to GAME store.

3. GAME sells it to person Y.

3 Y sells it BACK to GAME.

4. Game sells it to Z.

Now we have X Y and Z ALL playing game A. How much publisher B got from this deal? THE PRICE OF ONE FREAKING GAME £50....How much did GAME store make? At least £70....

Now TAKE PRE OWNED SALES OUT OF THE PICTURE:

X paid £50 plus £50 from Y plus another £50 from Z.

How much did publisher B make? £150.

DISCLAIMER

The above practice is LEGAL. OPERATES in BROAD daylight in high street shops. Thus its TOLERATED, NOT persecuted and NOT stigmatized.

As opposed to piracy...

True_Gamer_

First of all your analysis is wrong.

Any rational human being takes into account the resale value of a good when purchasing in. So for example. I'm going to purchase

• Enslaved to the West - Which looks great but limited gameplay, and trade it in quickly to buy
• Fallout New Vegas

Now if there was *no way* I could trade in Ensalved, I doubt I'd ever pick it up. Therefore *every resold game is not a potentially lost sale* as you claim in your post. Wondered why games on Steam are often *half the price* of console games....you can't trade them in.

Furthermore, on moral grounds your thesis is reprehensible. So if I buy a car, I should not be able to resell it? If i *buy* it, it is *my property* and I can do with it as I please. One of the principles of Western democracy is the institution of private property - trust me, without it you'll have a lot more to worry about than the price of games!

Corporations make money by creating scarcity - often artificial scarcity. Pharmaceutical companies for example, patent or license drugs, Intel makes chips and then disables parts of them, to make the remaining ones scarcer etc. Corporations also employ the media to pretty much brainwash and persuade people that stupid things are good; like paying twice for the same music track is good (DRM), paying $100 for 50 cent drug is good, not owning and therefore reselling your property is good......

With Piracy, one person buys a game, and thousands of people have instant access.

Used game sales generally take time, and are resold long after the publisher will see any real benefit. Game stores don't keep games on the shelf that long, and people aren't going to buy something initially, probably wouldn't do otherwise if the game was only available in the 1st 6 months of release.

Used game sales also preserve games for time to come and promote future games, for those who enter a series late or something like that, whereas they otherwise might be discouraged to.

Pre owned games business is detrimental to the industry let me explain why:

1. Person X buys game A....

2. X sells it to GAME store.

3. GAME sells it to person Y.

3 Y sells it BACK to GAME.

4. Game sells it to Z.

Now we have X Y and Z ALL playing game A. How much publisher B got from this deal? THE PRICE OF ONE FREAKING GAME £50....How much did GAME store make? At least £70....

Now TAKE PRE OWNED SALES OUT OF THE PICTURE:

X paid £50 plus £50 from Y plus another £50 from Z.

How much did publisher B make? £150.

DISCLAIMER

The above practice is LEGAL. OPERATES in BROAD daylight in high street shops. Thus its TOLERATED, NOT persecuted and NOT stigmatized.

As opposed to piracy...

True_Gamer_

Pre owned games business is detrimental to the industry let me explain why:

1. Person X buys game A....

2. X sells it to GAME store.

3. GAME sells it to person Y.

3 Y sells it BACK to GAME.

4. Game sells it to Z.

Now we have X Y and Z ALL playing game A. How much publisher B got from this deal? THE PRICE OF ONE FREAKING GAME £50....How much did GAME store make? At least £70....

Now TAKE PRE OWNED SALES OUT OF THE PICTURE:

X paid £50 plus £50 from Y plus another £50 from Z.

How much did publisher B make? £150.

DISCLAIMER

The above practice is LEGAL. OPERATES in BROAD daylight in high street shops. Thus its TOLERATED, NOT persecuted and NOT stigmatized.

As opposed to piracy...

True_Gamer_

LOL. Why is this a "TOUGH REALITY" check?Wow. "WE" i.e "ME" and "YOU" are losing out big time here....... NOT.

Plus your sums don't add up. I bought Uncharted 2 and Assassins Creed 2 the other day, new for £13.50 each. And I've never seen a game go for over £40. If you pick the right store you can pick up a game for £25 on release. I got Modern Warfare 2 and Metal Gear for that price plus 10% off (with a discount card) which made that £22.50.

Also, the Publishers don't make 100% off sales anyway. And what's stopping big corporate companies milking the profits?

The gaming industry is making LOTS of money. That's the REALITY CHECK. Generally, the people who buy second hand games wouldn't buy them new anyway. They'd probably have a very small collection of games, rather than a big collection of second hand games.

Its so funny to see people defending Used games sales the same way people respond to piracy claims:True_Gamer_

Its so funny to see people defending Used games sales the same way people respond to piracy claims: "Generally, the people who buy second hand games wouldn't buy them new anyway. They'd probably have a very small collection of games, rather than a big collection of second hand games." "Generally, the people who pirate games wouldn't buy them new anyway. They'd probably have a very small collection of original games, rather than a big collection of pirated games." PLUS people just avoid or pretend that i wrote this: DISCLAIMER The above practice is LEGAL. OPERATES in BROAD daylight in high street shops. Thus its TOLERATED, NOT persecuted and NOT stigmatized.True_Gamer_

So basically what you are saying is that you want to lose the option to buy a game second hand instead of full price?

The only industry complaining about this is the game industry all the other industries don't complain at all so if anything publishers and developers are just money hungry cry babies.

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"]Its so funny to see people defending Used games sales the same way people respond to piracy claims:DerekLoffin