@ronvalencia: What you're saying is true and it's impressive of the Scorpio. However, don't go in expecting miracles. Games that are locked at 30 fps at most won't have framerate drops and games that don't have variable resolution won't be upscaled. Even if they do have variable resolution, I'm betting all of them range between 720p and 1080p so they won't run higher than that, even though Scorpio may be able to handle it. Like with PS4 Pro, the most impressive gains will be by games optimized for the system or patched by the developers after Scorpio launch.
This is critical. And I'm sorry, but the AF improvement is minor. I always crank it up on PC, but you can turn the settings down and it's not exactly what one would describe as a devastating experience. The Scorpio is going to really shine with new games that were built to explicitly support its power. Old stuff with low framerate caps, texture quality, lighting quality, resolution, etc geared towards the X1 (or good god, are we really bringing the 360 BC titles into this?) are really not going to be worthy of comment.
In fact, for the older games that had coded lower image quality or resolution caps for X1 than PS4... those will, ironically, look better on PS4 Pro than on Scorpio. Think about it.
Back on topic: Yeah ill stick to the standard ps4. I have goten so much more economical about my gaming lol. Never buying games that I am not super excited for for full price, not buying launch consoles, only paying for online play if I know I will have time/games to enjoy
This was a glorious realization for me. I play so few multiplayer games that I eventually had to wonder what I was shelling out the money for.
Yeah dude, it was mind blowing honestly. When I was mainly playing my xbox 360, I would buy 3 month subscriptions and not touch it.
one shitty game has shitty developers that couldn't be bothered to implement proper pro support, so this surely means the PS4 Pro is the failure in this equation. lawl
@ronvalencia: What you're saying is true and it's impressive of the Scorpio. However, don't go in expecting miracles. Games that are locked at 30 fps at most won't have framerate drops and games that don't have variable resolution won't be upscaled. Even if they do have variable resolution, I'm betting all of them range between 720p and 1080p so they won't run higher than that, even though Scorpio may be able to handle it. Like with PS4 Pro, the most impressive gains will be by games optimized for the system or patched by the developers after Scorpio launch.
As CryEngine 3 based game, Prey is a deferred rendering engine which runs into known weakness with current AMD GPU design. This problem is applicable to Unreal Engine 4 prior to recent forward render release build.
The following block diagram points to current AMD GPU design which includes PS4 Pro. Notice Pixel Engine being connected to memory controllers while Nvidia Maxwell/Pascal GPUs has Pixel Engine being connected to faster L2 cache.
There's additional data movements with Pixel Engine being connected to memory controllers design hence increased latency.
To help the DSBR do its thing, AMD is fundamentally altering the availability of Vega's L2 cache to the pixel engine in its shader clusters. In past AMD architectures, memory accesses for textures and pixels were non-coherent operations, requiring lots of data movement for operations like rendering to a texture and then writing that texture out to pixels later in the rendering pipeline. AMD also says this incoherency raised major synchronization and driver-programming challenges.
To cure this headache, Vega's render back-ends now enjoy access to the chip's L2 cache in the same way that earlier stages in the pipeline do. This change allows more data to remain in the chip's L2 cache instead of being flushed out and brought back from main memory when it's needed again, and it's another improvement that can help deferred-rendering techniques.
Vega has Pixel Engine being connected to faster L2 cache hence reducing the bottleneck. On XBO, it's Pixel Engine is connected to ESRAM which is faster than memory controller bottleneck.
Phil Spencer correctly identifies AMD GPU issues with it's high TFLOPS i.e. memory bandwidth.
When you talk to me about Scorpio, the term I use about the architecture isn’t the six teraflops which is obviously what we’ve announced, it’s balance. Really what it is, is you want a platform that is balanced between memory bandwidth, GPU power, you know, your ability to move memory and [an] amount of memory around in many ways is more inhibiting to the performance of your game than absolute teraflops on any one of the individual pieces, and when we designed Scorpio we really thought about this balanced rig that could come together at a price-point. Like, I want Scorpio to be at a console price-point, I’m not trying to go and compete with a high-end rig. And because we’re building one spec, we’re able to look at the balance between all the components and make sure that it’s something we really hit that matters to consumers and gamers.
It's unknown if Scorpio's Pixel Engine is connected L2 cache or memory controller, but MS has stated reduce latency for their GPU design.
MS has several Unreal Engine 4 based projects and would have optimized Scorpio hardware for these type of workload.
@ronvalencia: What you're saying is true and it's impressive of the Scorpio. However, don't go in expecting miracles. Games that are locked at 30 fps at most won't have framerate drops and games that don't have variable resolution won't be upscaled. Even if they do have variable resolution, I'm betting all of them range between 720p and 1080p so they won't run higher than that, even though Scorpio may be able to handle it. Like with PS4 Pro, the most impressive gains will be by games optimized for the system or patched by the developers after Scorpio launch.
This is critical. And I'm sorry, but the AF improvement is minor. I always crank it up on PC, but you can turn the settings down and it's not exactly what one would describe as a devastating experience. The Scorpio is going to really shine with new games that were built to explicitly support its power. Old stuff with low framerate caps, texture quality, lighting quality, resolution, etc geared towards the X1 (or good god, are we really bringing the 360 BC titles into this?) are really not going to be worthy of comment.
In fact, for the older games that had coded lower image quality or resolution caps for X1 than PS4... those will, ironically, look better on PS4 Pro than on Scorpio. Think about it.
The difference between XBO and PS4 is usually less frame rate with the same resolution or less resolution with similar frame rate. The lightning and texture assets are similar between XBO and PS4. Both XBO and PS4 has about 5 GB of memory storage hence similar texture quality.
For Witcher 3 on XBO has 1920x1080p dynamic resolution with sustained 1600x900p resolution. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-the-witcher-3-wild-hunt-face-off
. Meanwhile, the promised 'dynamic resolution' solution on Xbox One doesn't appear to hit the 1080p target in any of our samples. Instead, for the most part the game renders at 1600x900, with only video cut-scenes providing true 1080p output for any noticeable length of time.
...
This granular approach to optimising for PS4 and Xbox One applies to texture quality too. Here we get a mixture of the PC's medium and high settings, based on which segment of the world you inspect. As a rule of thumb, consoles rarely match PC's best 2024x2024 resolution textures, though low-priority objects with blurrier maps are shared for all three versions. Ground textures in almost every case lack PC's sharpness, and also fall short of its 16x anisotropic filtering. Xbox One gives the worst results here, and in Novigrad City's main plaza, PS4 hits a mid-point in filtering quality between the other two platforms.
On Scorpio, dynamic resolution would be running at it's max design resolution and max AF.
A popular technique in games development is to adapt dynamic resolution scaling. The idea here is straightforward: when a game is in danger of losing its lock on its performance target, be it 30fps or 60fps, the title scales down the image, running it at a lower resolution in order to maintain a smoother frame-rate. There are many games out there that support dynamic scaling - Doom 2016, Halo 5, Gears of War 4, Battlefield 1, Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare and The Division, for example.
"With the additional performance of the Scorpio Engine, we expect to see those titles hit the maximum render resolution that those titles support," says Goossen. "As you know, we can't boost it to 4K, but definitely the maximum resolution the game supports, we should be able to run it."
We're looking forward to testing one particular title: CD Projekt RED's The Witcher 3. The developer states it supports dynamic resolution scaling, but we've yet to see it break the 900p barrier. Given Scorpio's 4.6x improvement in performance, surely if the tech is in there, we should hit native 1080p - and iron out the performance wobbles at the same time.
But MS still needs to FullSizeRender innovative deliverables and reinvent efficient synergies which leads to targetted dynamic communities.
Targetting vertical infomediaries always leads to aggregated solutions removing the need for utilizing granular convergence.
My posts are similar to major PC master race review sites e.g. techreport, tomshardware, hardocp, anandtech, techpowerup and 'etc', so what's your problem?
@ronvalencia: Tom's hardware, Anandtech and others like them don't suddenly post massive walls of barely decipherable text and masses of charts into nearly every SW thread, forcing users to scroll endlessly to actually read replies. That's my problem.
@Juub1990: It's a decent Stop gap system meant mostly for PSVR, I've been enjoying it since launch on my LGB6. I had so many Future Triple AAA games paid off on my PS4, I traded in my PS4 For PS4 Pro knowing exactly what I'm getting and paying for. I'll enjoy so many future games on it, I'm mostly excited for all of Sonys first party games in the next year and then it'll be traded in For PS5 Fall 2018.
@ronvalencia: Tom's hardware, Anandtech and others like them don't suddenly post massive walls of barely decipherable text and masses of charts into nearly every SW thread, forcing users to scroll endlessly to actually read replies. That's my problem.
I posted from Techreport and Anandtech has it's version.
Anyway, I created a diagram to explain my point.
On current AMD GPUs, higher latency and bottleneck problem affects non-compute shader workloads e.g. Pixel Shader and ROPS. This problem impacts CryEngine 3 and Unreal Engine 4. Prey runs on CryEngine 3.
Games that heavily uses Async Compute and Sync Compute Shader based rendering workaround this AMD GPU problem.
Result: Current AMD GPUs has less consistent results when compared to NVIDIA GPU counterpart.
AMD was hoping PS4's market power would force industry towards Async Compute and Sync Compute render path, but hope is not enough.
@ronvalencia: Tom's hardware, Anandtech and others like them don't suddenly post massive walls of barely decipherable text and masses of charts into nearly every SW thread, forcing users to scroll endlessly to actually read replies. That's my problem.
Tell me about. Its the most obnoxious posting on the forums.
@ronvalencia: Tom's hardware, Anandtech and others like them don't suddenly post massive walls of barely decipherable text and masses of charts into nearly every SW thread, forcing users to scroll endlessly to actually read replies. That's my problem.
Tell me about. Its the most obnoxious posting on the forums.
Supporting claims without proper counter argument is worst.
@xantufrog: Why would you turn down AF anyway? The thing has like a 0.1% impact on performance.
On these consoles for some reason its been a memory bandwidth eater. Its been kept down for performance. I don't want to trigger Ron but something up with the unified memory. DF did an article back then tracking down the issue and closest they could come up was kept low for bandwidth optimization for some reason. It was never conclusive.
@Juub1990: I wouldn't turn down AF - but I'm a tinkerer. Who wouldn't play around with what it does, even if the end goal is to go ahead and maxi it out? I don't do it for every game or anything, but I like seeing what the dials do
@ronvalencia: Oh thanks yeah. That chart helps explain so much. Definitely need more of those around here.
PS4 Pro's GPU has 2 MB L2 cache like GeForce 980 Ti GPU, but it's ROPS/Pixel Engines are not connected to L2 cache.
The approach for Sony's first party PS4 Pro games would be heavy Async compute and Sync compute workloads which connected to L2 cache, with minimized Pixel Engine usage.
If you use pixel shaders, your write units are typically ROPS.
If you use compute shaders, your write units are typically TMUs which are connected to faster L2 cache.
This is why AMD is pushing for Forward Plus Tile Rendering and Async/Sync Compute software optimizations and in accordance with Sony's PS3's SPU style workloads. Sony pushed AMD to it's current GPU designs and AMD paid for it i.e. massive lost in PC GPU market share. AMD should get back to GPU's main purpose i.e. pumping pixels not building over size DSP with inferior pixel pushing capabilities.
NVIDIA itself attributes its success in the third quarter to sales of its Pascal-based products — the GeForce GTX 1060, 1070 and 1080 as well as their mobile brethren
....
For the three-quarters so far in 2016, NVIDIA has sold approximately 25 million of desktop discrete GPUs.
There's a large market for GTX 1060 level GPU and has covered XBO's install base in about three-quarters in year 2016 .
The problem for AMD and Sony, NVIDIA effectively taken over PC gaming and it will push it's way.
Scorpio's Forza reveal with wet track which includes tons transparencies and alpha effects was a demonstration for it's Pixel Engine path low latency improvements.
No amount API optimizations can fix current AMD GPU Pixel Engine to memory controller path hardware bottlenecks and TMUs doesn't include ROPS' blend fixed function hardware.
@appariti0n: Plus they don't just completely ignore users posts to talk about something completely different when quoting them with walls of text attached :P
@ronvalencia: Tom's hardware, Anandtech and others like them don't suddenly post massive walls of barely decipherable text and masses of charts into nearly every SW thread, forcing users to scroll endlessly to actually read replies. That's my problem.
Tell me about. Its the most obnoxious posting on the forums.
Supporting claims without proper counter argument is worst.
But you're on System Wars. Who needs evidence anyway?
Seriously, thanks for the trouble. Despite me, rarely reading all of your texts.
@ronvalencia: What you're saying is true and it's impressive of the Scorpio. However, don't go in expecting miracles. Games that are locked at 30 fps at most won't have framerate drops and games that don't have variable resolution won't be upscaled. Even if they do have variable resolution, I'm betting all of them range between 720p and 1080p so they won't run higher than that, even though Scorpio may be able to handle it. Like with PS4 Pro, the most impressive gains will be by games optimized for the system or patched by the developers after Scorpio launch.
This is critical. And I'm sorry, but the AF improvement is minor. I always crank it up on PC, but you can turn the settings down and it's not exactly what one would describe as a devastating experience. The Scorpio is going to really shine with new games that were built to explicitly support its power. Old stuff with low framerate caps, texture quality, lighting quality, resolution, etc geared towards the X1 (or good god, are we really bringing the 360 BC titles into this?) are really not going to be worthy of comment.
In fact, for the older games that had coded lower image quality or resolution caps for X1 than PS4... those will, ironically, look better on PS4 Pro than on Scorpio. Think about it.
Both consoles have an issue with texture filtering (especially the PS4) and it is a visible issue. Many of us (mostly gamers with PC experience) wondered why developers don't increase the quality of texture filtering, when on PC it barely has an effect on performance, even when cranked up to the max.
What is texture filtering? Well here is a picture with filtering and you should be able to figure it out.
Many PS4 titles use anything between Bilinear or Trilinear.
On Xbox One, many developers use anything between Bilinear to Anisotripic filtering 2X.
If you game on PC, you know that changing the option from Bilinear to AFX16 brings huge improvements to image quality and almost no penalty to performance. So why don't consoles use this?
Apparently the memory bandwidth becomes a bottleneck and developers many times will rather use that bandwidth to improve "close-up" graphics or various other things. Since it is a unified memory system, bandwidth will easily affect things that are normally computed by the CPU or GPU.
In addition, since the PS4 uses GDDR5 memory, the memory bandwidth is disproportionately dispersed between the CPU and GPU. Meanwhile, this might not be an issue on Xbox One since it uses DDR3 memory instead and additional ESRAM. This could the reason why the Xbox One seems to have better texture filtering in various games over the PS4 version.
Source:
Digital Foundry puts these theories to the test on a PC with an AMD APU and just DDR3 RAM. No dGPU.
Marco Thrush: CTO and Owner of Bluepoint Games
"The amount of AF [anisotropic filtering] has a big impact on memory throughput," Thrush says. "On PCs, lots of memory bandwidth is usually available because it's fully isolated to the graphics card. On consoles with shared memory architecture, that isn't quite the case, but the benefits you get from having shared memory architecture far outweigh the drawbacks."
One of the main reasons for PS4 and XBO games being a blurry mess.
We have a Sapphire R7 265 in hand, running at 925MHz - down-clock that to 900MHz and we have a lock with PS4's 1.84 teraflops of compute power.
In our Face-Offs, we like to get as close a lock as we can between PC quality presets and their console equivalents in order to find the quality sweet spots chosen by the developers. Initially using Star Wars Battlefront, The Witcher 3 and Street Fighter 5 as comparison points with as close to locked settings as we could muster, we were happy with the performance of our 'target PS4' system. The Witcher 3 sustains 1080p30, Battlefront hits 900p60, SF5 runs at 1080p60 with just a hint of slowdown on the replays - just like PS4. We have a ballpark match
...
at straight 1080p on the R7 265-powered PS4 surrogate. Medium settings is a direct match for the PS4 version here and not surprisingly, our base-level PS4 hardware runs it very closely to the console we're seeking to mimic
...
Take the Witcher 3, for example. Our Novigrad City test run hits a 33.3fps average on the R7 265 PS4 target hardware - pretty much in line with console performance.
For Witcher 3, SW battlefront and SF5, there's very minimal difference between shared memory PS4 vs non-shared memory R7-265.
Due to Scorpio's high effective memory bandwidth, it has brute force it's Anisotropic filter to maximum.
"For 4K assets, textures get larger and render targets get larger as well. This means a couple of things - you need more space, you need more bandwidth. The question, though, was how much?" asks Nick Baker, Distinguished Engineer, Silicon. "We'd hate to build this GPU and then end up having to be memory-starved. So all the analysis that Andrew was talking about, we were able to look at the effect of different memory bandwidths, and it quickly led us to needing more than 300GB/s memory bandwidth. So in the end we ended up choosing 326GB/s. On Scorpio we are using a 384-bit GDDR5 interface - that is 12 channels. Each channel is 32 bits."
Scorpio runs its GDDR5 modules across a 384-bit GDDR5 interface ("So you were right!" laughs Goossen) that uses 12 32-bit channels. The modules themselves run at 6.8GHz, offering a final bandwidth figure of 326GB/s - on top of which, Microsoft gets the benefit of AMD's delta colour compression (DCC) system, an element that wasn't present on Xbox One.
@ronvalencia: Your latest post kinda prove the concern that people bring out on your memory bandwidth comparison for scorpio to be the difference that will put it at gtx1070 level. Scorpio brute forcing something which means there is a issue there for shared memory? AF has gotten better on ps4 lately on DF and usually comes out on top over xboxone despite handling more shading load. Perhaps sometimes because of the higher resolution that they think its better. The Pro also improves that even at its 4k mode for some games. Prey is a mess but it went from 4x to fully 16x for example. Considering in this same thread you have talked about different solution and some Nvdia benefits.
Again for Scorpio is there a disadvantage bandwidth wise for shared memory in terms of the count. This does not mean I'm saying its bad just not 1 to 1 compare to dedicated. MS has accounted for that by going by that number but perhaps that is enough to not bottleneck the drawing speed of there gpu for the realistic target that they know. Its just that target drawing speed may not be at gtx 1070 level perhaps even with its smaller but dedicated bandwidth.
This is speculative of course and you know your going to be attacked if scorpio comes out short of gtx 1070 in this forum. Despite actually making a lot of sense.
@ronvalencia: Your latest post kinda prove the concern that people bring out on your memory bandwidth comparison for scorpio to be the difference that will put it at gtx1070 level. Scorpio brute forcing something which means there is a issue there for shared memory? AF has gotten better on ps4 lately on DF and usually comes out on top over xboxone despite handling more shading load. Perhaps sometimes because of the higher resolution that they think its better. The Pro also improves that even at its 4k mode for some games. Prey is a mess but it went from 4x to fully 16x for example. Considering in this same thread you have talked about different solution and some Nvdia benefits.
Again for Scorpio is there a disadvantage bandwidth wise for shared memory in terms of the count. This does not mean I'm saying its bad just not 1 to 1 compare to dedicated. MS has accounted for that by going by that number but perhaps that is enough to not bottleneck the drawing speed of there gpu for the realistic target that they know. Its just that target drawing speed may not be at gtx 1070 level perhaps even with its smaller but dedicated bandwidth.
This is speculative of course and you know your going to be attacked if scorpio comes out short of gtx 1070 in this forum. Despite actually making a lot of sense.
The problem with DF's GTX 1070 class GPU claim is Scorpio's Forza 6 result is actually faster than reference GTX 1070's result and DF was defending NVIDIA's entry level 256 bit GDDR5-8000 GP104 Pascal GPU. This level of performance can't just disappear.
Scorpio's Forza 6 result was mostly demonstration for it's Pixel Engine path since wet track has tons of transparencies and alpha effects are heavy ROPS and memory bandwidth usage. I narrow down Scorpio's improvement areas by down clocking my GTX 1080 Ti to 6.5 TFLOPS while keeping memory bandwidth as is and result still yields 4K/ 60 fps.
No current AMD GPU was enable to best GTX 1070 and GTX 980 Ti's Pixel Engine strength in any of PC benchmarks, but Scorpio has managed to reach it.
Scorpio's Battlefield 2 has 4K which has high probability for 60 fps.
"For 4K assets, textures get larger and render targets get larger as well. This means a couple of things - you need more space, you need more bandwidth. The question, though, was how much?" asks Nick Baker, Distinguished Engineer, Silicon. "We'd hate to build this GPU and then end up having to be memory-starved. So all the analysis that Andrew was talking about, we were able to look at the effect of different memory bandwidths, and it quickly led us to needing more than 300GB/s memory bandwidth. So in the end we ended up choosing 326GB/s. On Scorpio we are using a 384-bit GDDR5 interface - that is 12 channels. Each channel is 32 bits."
Scorpio runs its GDDR5 modules across a 384-bit GDDR5 interface ("So you were right!" laughs Goossen) that uses 12 32-bit channels. The modules themselves run at 6.8GHz, offering a final bandwidth figure of 326GB/s - on top of which, Microsoft gets the benefit of AMD's delta colour compression (DCC) system, an element that wasn't present on Xbox One.
From MS sourced claim, the GPU itself has more 300 Gbps which is higher than RX-580's 263 GBps effective memory bandwidth.
Scorpio's GPU has 2MB L2 cache + DCC + more than 300 GBps memory bandwidth and R9-390X has 1 MB L2 cache and zero DCC.
Another problem for GTX 1070 is Shader Model 6 when it enables Polaris's FP16 features.
The following code shows how this is implemented using GCN ISA (going forward in this blog, all comparisons are against ISA capabilities of GFX 8 Fiji + Polaris):
...
In several Machine Learning algorithms, training the data on fp16 data types has been effective in increasing the execution rate
...
HIP is a portable higher level API that has similar syntax as CUDA which works on both AMD and NVIDIA GPUs. Module APIs from HIP can be utilized to load and run AMD GPU HSA code objects compiled offline
Polaris subword FP16 feature was designed to compatible to CUDA GPUs with proper native FP16 support e.g. GP100, Tegra X1 and X2.
Polaris has support quad packed 8 bit, dual packed FP16 and single packed FP32. GTX 1070 doesn't have dual packed FP16, hence, which GPU has better designed for the future Shader Model 6 workloads?
Phil Spencer correctly identifies AMD GPU issues with it's high TFLOPS i.e. memory bandwidth.
When you talk to me about Scorpio, the term I use about the architecture isn’t the six teraflops which is obviously what we’ve announced, it’s balance. Really what it is, is you want a platform that is balanced between memory bandwidth, GPU power, you know, your ability to move memory and [an] amount of memory around in many ways is more inhibiting to the performance of your game than absolute teraflops on any one of the individual pieces, and when we designed Scorpio we really thought about this balanced rig that could come together at a price-point. Like, I want Scorpio to be at a console price-point, I’m not trying to go and compete with a high-end rig. And because we’re building one spec, we’re able to look at the balance between all the components and make sure that it’s something we really hit that matters to consumers and gamers.
MS learned it's lessons from NVIDIA's secret sauce.
"We also leveraged the fact that we understand the AMD architecture really, really well now and how well it does on our games," continues Goossen, "so we were able to go through and examine a lot of the internal queues and buffers and caches and FIFOs that make up this very deep pipeline that, if you can find the right areas that are causing bottlenecks, for very small area [on the processor] we could increase those sizes and get effective wins."
This is beyond R9-390X's design. The next level GPUs above R9-390X, RX-480 and RX-580 GPUs are GTX 980 Ti and GTX 1070.
“The bottlenecks are mainly in command list building – we now have this split-up of up to four cores in parallel. There are still some bottlenecks to work out with memory flushing to garlic, even after changing to LCUE, the memory copying is still significant.”
For command list building, Project Cars developers are actively minimizing data being written to main memory i.e. "flushing to garlic" means CPU --> memory ---(garlic bus)--> GPU path. Shared memory is a known problem and developers are working around it.
MS haven't shown Scorpio in Hot Chips 2017 lectures, hence additional details are required.
The problem with DF's GTX 1070 class GPU claim is Scorpio's Forza 6 result is actually faster than reference GTX 1070's result and DF was defending NVIDIA's entry level 256 bit GDDR5-8000 GP104 Pascal GPU. This level of performance can't just disappear.
This ^^ is bullshit again,you were shown already 2 undeniable facts about how your argument is wrong and you simply chose to ignore them and continue with your bias ass kissing of MS hardware.
Scorpio is a 6TF polaris GPU the RX480 is not even close to a 1070 even OC pass 6TF.
1-Forza is a screw up game on PC.
2-Forza is not a demanding game at all and was running in 1080p 60FPS on xbox one which uses a shitty 7770 like GPU and a 1.7ghz jaguar which also is bottom of the barrel performance wise.
This ^^ 2 are indisputable facts you can't change those facts and i already proven Forza being screw up on PC.
Forza is a badly optimized game on PC and Scorpio some how beating a 1070 mean nothings,again wait until the actual games get release,so you don't look so stupid you jumped the gun on FP16,Vega and Ryzen basically you assume to much.
The amount of bandwidth Scorpio has over the RX480 is not even a big deal,or something that will increase performance to 1070gtx levels.
Project Scorpio continues to ruffle the feathers of Sony fannies. The shear power has them shaking in fear as the PS4 Pro takes the form of the new Xbox One.
@tormentos: The 1070 is a 1440p card while the RX 480 is a 1080p card that can do 1440p with settings cut back. So yeah, no way I can see Scorpio gonna be around 1070 level. Funny thing is, Wicher 3 gave my 1070 a hard time in Ultra.
Cant say I'm surprised. I was always against mid-gen upgrades so I'm glad the Pro isnt doing so good. Hope both Sony and gamers who bought it have learnt their lesson. $100 more for barely to no difference whatsoever other than a slight change in resolution is... bafling to say the least
Now that's disingenuous. Moving from 1080p to 1440p or 1800p is a big freakin' deal. Ask a PC gamer. It takes a serious hardware bump to pull that off. And there are a few titles actually running native 4K! Not to mention the better lighting, textures, effects, reflections, foliage, draw distance, AA and other improvements the Pro brings over base PS4. If this was the difference between base PS4 and base Xbox One, the message board community would be having a field day! The difference between PS4 and Xbox One is far less and it was a big freakin' deal then. But when it's PS4 vs PS4 Pro it's, "barely to no difference whatsoever" ? Come on now!
The Pro 4K is upscaled, not native thats why I said "slight"
Personaly I havnt seen 4k gaming yet but I still remember how the vast majority claimed how much better 1080p was compared to 720p and sure, I can tell the difference when close to the TV but I usually play far from the TV so the changes, when it comes to resolution at least, are minimal. Resolution and graphics are changing but games are not. Personaly I would prefer smoother framerate over resolution. I never had a "serious" problem with the "jaggies" that PC gamers seem to have. I always laugh when I hear comments such us "the jaggies in game X made me quit" like the game was unplayable or something... hell, I still play PS1/PS2 games with no problem and still have the same fun I had with them those many years ago. Graphics are of minimum importance to me, but thats me... so paying $100 more for minimal changes when the games will still play more than fine in the normal PS4 is out of the question for me.
And why the PS4 vs Xbox comment? I'm very critical of the Xone but of all its problems, graphics and resolution are the ones I've never critiqued. I buy new consoles for games, not graphics and the problems with the Xone goes waaaay beyond graphics/resolution
Installed my pro today and played on it the rest of the day. It's... not worth it. The thing is also damn loud if I play from a disk instead of digital. I do enjoy TLOU tough. Horizon is still a borefest.
Installed my pro today and played on it the rest of the day. It's... not worth it. The thing is also damn loud if I play from a disk instead of digital. I do enjoy TLOU tough. Horizon is still a borefest.
Haha, the Pro is flopping royally. Sony fannies are on going to loose their minds when Scorpio is released. Horizon is still hitting the snooze button for folks. LMAO
Dude, it's a freaking upgrade console, not another next-gen console to begin with! What makes you think the Pro was gonna make any difference from the original PS4?
Never really cared about power, I only give a damn about the games and the exclusive games I played & enjoy had be amazing.
This ^
PS4 pro is basically, "hey you like PS4? here's a supped up version if you're into that sorta thing"
Dude, it's a freaking upgrade console, not another next-gen console to begin with! What makes you think the Pro was gonna make any difference from the original PS4?
Never really cared about power, I only give a damn about the games and the exclusive games I played & enjoy had be amazing.
This ^
PS4 pro is basically, "hey you like PS4? here's a supped up version if you're into that sorta thing"
Except that it partially failed at achieving that.
Dude, it's a freaking upgrade console, not another next-gen console to begin with! What makes you think the Pro was gonna make any difference from the original PS4?
Never really cared about power, I only give a damn about the games and the exclusive games I played & enjoy had be amazing.
The problem with DF's GTX 1070 class GPU claim is Scorpio's Forza 6 result is actually faster than reference GTX 1070's result and DF was defending NVIDIA's entry level 256 bit GDDR5-8000 GP104 Pascal GPU. This level of performance can't just disappear.
This ^^ is bullshit again,you were shown already 2 undeniable facts about how your argument is wrong and you simply chose to ignore them and continue with your bias ass kissing of MS hardware.
Scorpio is a 6TF polaris GPU the RX480 is not even close to a 1070 even OC pass 6TF.
1-Forza is a screw up game on PC.
2-Forza is not a demanding game at all and was running in 1080p 60FPS on xbox one which uses a shitty 7770 like GPU and a 1.7ghz jaguar which also is bottom of the barrel performance wise.
This ^^ 2 are indisputable facts you can't change those facts and i already proven Forza being screw up on PC.
Forza is a badly optimized game on PC and Scorpio some how beating a 1070 mean nothings,again wait until the actual games get release,so you don't look so stupid you jumped the gun on FP16,Vega and Ryzen basically you assume to much.
The amount of bandwidth Scorpio has over the RX480 is not even a big deal,or something that will increase performance to 1070gtx levels.
Since you don't have GTX 1080 Ti, you haven't experimented on Paxwell's TFLOPS number needed for sustained Forza 4K/60 fps. My GTX 1080 Ti FE needs about 6.4 to 6.5 TFLOPS to sustain 4K/60 fps. GTX 1070 runs into memory bandwidth wall and wet track has tons of transparencies and alpha effects which are Pixel Engine driven effects with heavy memory bandwidth consumption. MS has demonstrated Scorpio's Pixel Engine superiority over Hawaii XT2's and Polaris 10's Pixel Engine path.
TMU workaround is missing ROPS' hardware blend functions.
The other major Vega improvement is connecting Pixel Engine with L2 cache.
Release year 2013 Hawaii GCN wasn't hardware profiled for existing 3D games while Scorpio's GPU hardware was profiled for existing XBO 3D engines e.g. Unreal Engine 4 (Gears of War 4, Crack Down 3, Sea of Thieves, State of Decay 2, Fable Legends(cancelled), Scalebound (cancelled)), Unity 3D (ReCore), CryEngine 3 (Ryse Son of Rome), ForzaTech (Forza Motosport 6 and Horizon 3) and Halo 5.
When compared to Hawaii GCN, Pascal GPU has better hardware profile for Unreal Engine 4, CryEngine 3, Unity3D and ForzaTech i.e. Pascal GPU is superior to Hawaii XT at a given TFLOPS and physical memory bandwidth.
Xeon X5650 = Westmere EP. My Intel "Haswell" Core i7-4790K at 4.5 Ghz with PCI version 3.0 16X slot is faster than this old Nehalem-C with PCI version 2.0 16X slot. My old DELL server has Xeon X5650 CPU LOL.
API difference affect the CPU side not the GPU.
The main argument for Scorpio is hardware profiled for existing software 3D engines NOT software profiled for hardware. The ideological battle is similar to Xbox 360 vs PS3.
Hawaii XT GCN was a 44 CU extension from PS4's ideology which is contrary to heavy Pixel Engine driven games.
R9-290 with R9-390 firmware mod = A GPU which doesn't include 60 graphics pipeline improvements e.g. it lacks Polaris culling engine, tessellation register storage increase, DCC, 2 MB L2 cache and 'etc'.
The mod'ed R9-290 in question has 4 GB with Westmere EP CPU i.e. 1st generation i7 Core type with PCI-E version 2.0 16X (8 Gbps read, 8 Gbps write). The CPU to GPU connection is slower than PS4's version. Expect some transfer issues with CPU-to-GPU links slower than XBO and PS4.
Core i7-4790K at 4.7 Ghz and R9-390 (8 GB) heavy OC has no stuttering.
My Forza M6 and H3 test includes the latest software patches and drivers, but it would not fix Hawaii's hardware bottlenecks.
My i7-4790K has 2133 Mhz and i7-4770K has 2400 Mhz DDR3 memory modules when tested Forza M6 and H3. I don't get stuttering.
#87 Posted : 7 months ago
2x Gigabyte G1 1080
32GB CORSAIR Vengeance LPX (2 x 16GB)
Intel i7 6700k
512GB M.2 Samsung pro 950
Seagate SSHD 2TB (Installed here)
All settings maxed. 60FPS everywhere without any drops but I have to disable SLI in NVIDIA control panel before playing. With SLI I get 30FPS; without I get 60FPS.
Some has Core i5 6600K with 4 threads.. Need more hardware threads to minimize thread context switching.
I haven't encountered crash to desktop nor less than 53 fps on GTX 980 Ti with FM6 and FH3.
Your forum link is at least 7 months old. I don't need somebody results since I have my own i7-4790K/GTX 980 Ti factory OC and i7-4770K/GTX 1080 Ti machines.
Phil Spencer correctly identifies GPU issues with it's high TFLOPS i.e. memory bandwidth and data movements.
When you talk to me about Scorpio, the term I use about the architecture isn’t the six teraflops which is obviously what we’ve announced, it’s balance. Really what it is, is you want a platform that is balanced between memory bandwidth, GPU power, you know, your ability to move memory and [an] amount of memory around in many ways is more inhibiting to the performance of your game than absolute teraflops on any one of the individual pieces, and when we designed Scorpio we really thought about this balanced rig that could come together at a price-point. Like, I want Scorpio to be at a console price-point, I’m not trying to go and compete with a high-end rig. And because we’re building one spec, we’re able to look at the balance between all the components and make sure that it’s something we really hit that matters to consumers and gamers.
We quadrupled the GPU L2 cache size, again for targeting the 4K performance."
NO your freaking post is bullshit..
FORZA IS A SHITTY OPTIMIZED GAME ON PC AND DF AGREES.
Now you are not allow to quote Richared Leadbetter you hypocrite,you downplayed and talked bullshit about him because he dare say what i and many other have say that Scorpio CPU is a bottleneck no amount of customization will change that.
You were wrong about Vega,Ryzen and FP16,and Polaris doesn't have double pumped FP16 neither does scorpio already admitted by MS.
We quadrupled the GPU L2 cache size, again for targeting the 4K performance."
NO your freaking post is bullshit..
FORZA IS A SHITTY OPTIMIZED GAME ON PC AND DF AGREES.
Now you are not allow to quote Richared Leadbetter you hypocrite,you downplayed and talked bullshit about him because he dare say what i and many other have say that Scorpio CPU is a bottleneck no amount of customization will change that.
You were wrong about Vega,Ryzen and FP16,and Polaris doesn't have double pumped FP16 neither does scorpio already admitted by MS.
Your post is bullshit.
The main argument for Scorpio is hardware profiled for existing software 3D engines NOT software profiled for hardware.
Again, my GTX 1080 Ti FE needs about 6.4 to 6.5 TFLOPS to sustain 4K/60 fps in FH6. GTX 1070 runs into memory bandwidth wall and wet track has tons of transparencies and alpha effects which are Pixel Engine driven effects with heavy memory bandwidth consumption. MS has demonstrated Scorpio's Pixel Engine superiority over Hawaii XT2's and Polaris 10's Pixel Engine path.
You don't own Core i7-4770K/32 GB DDR3-2400/GTX 1080 Ti/1 TB SSD setup to verify any claims.
@tormentos said:
You were wrong about Vega,Ryzen and FP16,and Polaris doesn't have double pumped FP16 neither does scorpio already admitted by MS.
That's a red herring and that was a speculation thread.
1. Ryzen's level workload wasn't ignored i.e. covered by beef-up custom Direct3D12 command compressor and low latency K16 CPU improvements. This is for API and command list building.
2. Scorpio's GPU result being faster than R9-390X OC and RX-480 OC, but slower than Vega 10 is correct. Vega's double rate FP16 feature means little at this point.
3. Polaris double subword FP16 processing doesn't increase the amount of math operation per cycle, but it increases data element processing per cycle. GP104 and GP102 doesn't have these features, but it has superior DCC.
The Pro 4K is upscaled, not native thats why I said "slight"
Personaly I havnt seen 4k gaming yet but I still remember how the vast majority claimed how much better 1080p was compared to 720p and sure, I can tell the difference when close to the TV but I usually play far from the TV so the changes, when it comes to resolution at least, are minimal.
The Pro has 4k native games,and from 1800p to 4k there is the same gap in % as from 900p to 1080p 44% to be exact.
I play like 6 feet from my TV and i can tell the difference one is simply sharper.
@Pedro said:
Project Scorpio continues to ruffle the feathers of Sony fannies. The shear power has them shaking in fear as the PS4 Pro takes the form of the new Xbox One.
There is no difference between 1800p and 4k because i play 20 feet from my TV,just like you did with your xbox one to not notice the difference..hahahahahahahaa
The Pro 4K is upscaled, not native thats why I said "slight"
Personaly I havnt seen 4k gaming yet but I still remember how the vast majority claimed how much better 1080p was compared to 720p and sure, I can tell the difference when close to the TV but I usually play far from the TV so the changes, when it comes to resolution at least, are minimal.
The Pro has 4k native games,and from 1800p to 4k there is the same gap in % as from 900p to 1080p 44% to be exact.
I play like 6 feet from my TV and i can tell the difference one is simply sharper.
@Pedro said:
Project Scorpio continues to ruffle the feathers of Sony fannies. The shear power has them shaking in fear as the PS4 Pro takes the form of the new Xbox One.
There is no difference between 1800p and 4k because i play 20 feet from my TV,just like you did with your xbox one to not notice the difference..hahahahahahahaa
The difference with Scorpio is 3.5 GB extra memory storage (over PS4 Pro's 5.5 GB) for PC's higher quality texture assets shovelware.
Both XBO and PS4 has 5 GB of memory storage for games.
MS talks about added geometry detail for Scorpio i.e. faster tessellation/geometry hardware with larger memory storage i.e. more hairs. MS is pushing for NVIDIA style PC difference.
Sure, it can't run most games at native 4k, but 1440p, 1600p etc are a good boost over 1080p and already show close to no jaggies. On the top of that, some of the games i play run now at 60fps (Battlefield 1, No Man's Sky, etc).
I totally agree the Pro is a vast step up from the original ps4 and if people we're expecting miracles then that's there fault.
We quadrupled the GPU L2 cache size, again for targeting the 4K performance."
NO your freaking post is bullshit..
FORZA IS A SHITTY OPTIMIZED GAME ON PC AND DF AGREES.
Now you are not allow to quote Richared Leadbetter you hypocrite,you downplayed and talked bullshit about him because he dare say what i and many other have say that Scorpio CPU is a bottleneck no amount of customization will change that.
You were wrong about Vega,Ryzen and FP16,and Polaris doesn't have double pumped FP16 neither does scorpio already admitted by MS.
Shut the **** up till after E3. We will all find out then how good Scorpio is.
Prey was poorly executed on the PS4 Pro, it's as simple as that.
They slap 'PS4 Pro Enhanced' on the box yet release an update for it weeks later which happens to be half baked. I'm not sure how you can blame anyone but Arkane for these issues. You can blame Sony if games can't all be native 4k but it's absolutely not their fault if a game is to any degree unplayable due to frame rate stuttering, bugs etc.
I fell for the super-charged meme too and yes, the PS4 Pro has been a waste of money so far. And is not like the Pro is weak but that the Cpu is bottlenecking the Gpu real bad. And then there's the poor bandwidth too.
Using ultra shitty AMD Cpu on the current gen consoles was a mistake. Even the fucking Crash Bandicoot trilogy will be 30fps.
@princeofshapeir: on the contrary Sony and Microsoft have launched and about to launch mid gen upgrades; that means devs who already have a ton of work to make a game for PS4/Xbone are expected to get the games running on the Pro/Scorpio.
Furthermore the Pro and Scorpio will only be sold to a niche audience. While 80% and up will just keep and or buy the original PS4/Xbone.
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