P2W being reinstated in SWBF2

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UssjTrunks

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#1  Edited By UssjTrunks
Member since 2005 • 11299 Posts

https://twitter.com/saraheneedleman/status/958446434004688898?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rollingstone.com%2Fglixel%2Fnews%2Freport-loot-boxes-are-coming-back-to-battlefront-2-w516145

Surprise of the century. EA is bringing P2W back into their POS online casino simulator.

Anyone who bought this game isn't a real gamer and should feel bad.

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madrocketeer

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#2  Edited By madrocketeer
Member since 2005 • 10589 Posts

As I understand it, they're reinstating some kind of microtransactions, but not necessarily pay-to-win, or more accurately in this case, pay-to-gain-advantage. Especially since EA also said they're revamping the progression system in March. They prodded and probed too far and got burned. The whole industry is shaking in their boots because of this; Ubisoft the other day had to put in bold just what a bunch of good guys they are just to cover their backsides. I don't think even EA would be stupid enough to cross that line again, but we'll see.

And while I feel some level of satisfaction that SWBFII missed sales projection specifically because of this loot box mess, 9 million is still a lot of copies sold. It just means they'll be bathing in money instead of swimming in it.

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KungfuKitten

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#3  Edited By KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 27389 Posts

@madrocketeer said:

As I understand it, they're reinstating some kind of microtransactions, but not necessarily pay-to-win, or more accurately in this case, pay-to-gain-advantage. Especially since EA also said they're revamping the progression system in March. They prodded and probed too far and got burned. The whole industry is shaking in their boots because of this; Ubisoft the other day had to put in bold just what a bunch of good guys they are just to cover their backsides. I don't think even EA would be stupid enough to cross that line again, but we'll see.

And while I feel some level of satisfaction that SWBFII missed sales projection specifically because of this loot box mess, 9 million is still a lot of copies sold. It just means they'll be bathing in money instead of swimming in it.

Pay to gain advantage is something that we have always called pay to win. It's the definition really. I don't remember there ever being a case where you could actually pay to win the game in a way that makes the act of playing it completely meaningless. I bet EA would be interested in that though.

And they would totally be stupid enough. If a company is so blind to not see this coming then it'll do it again. Actually I think they totally saw this coming. EA has been around for a while. We have other AAA bastards now coming out to defend EA instead of damning them, because they also want a piece of this pie. I view it more as a semi-conducted attack on consumer standards by the largest gaming companies. Which is what can happen when companies get too much power. Maaaybe they didn't expect a backlash this big but they're already thinking of their next steps to further diminish our standards. Like their matchmaking shenanigans.

Which is why I think it's important as consumers to escalate this, way beyond what they are expecting. I think we have to. Because if they implement systems like fake players/fake clans communicating with you to buy things, rigged matches to get you frustrated, individual pricing and that sort of stuff, we won't always know about it. We need new legislation and we need a consumer front, and an investigative force around the globe to protect consumers against potential future marketing threats like those described in the (fake I think, but still) leaked marketing presentation. I wouldn't want to wait for the corporations to do it first.

I want to go into that, actually. This is kinda off topic but it has to do with EA and what they are doing. (And Activision, etc.)

Marketing and manipulation.

I've researched and practiced mind control which is always fun to talk about because people look at you like you're a scientologist. It's not a great way to start a conversation in which you want to convey something important. Which is why I start with it here, I like to make things difficult for myself. Mind control techniques is the exact same thing as manipulation techniques. It's just about making you think a little differently about something by using certain words in a certain rhythm at a certain time in a certain way that sort of thing. You are being manipulated constantly. By everything and everyone around you. When a person shares an opinion that is you being manipulated and most of the time that's absolutely fine.

Marketing is complex but the essence of it is simply to make you want to buy a service or product that you didn't want to buy before. That can be innocent: by informing you about a product you didn't know about. But as you probably know it goes a little further than that. When you look at advertisements on TV you can tell with basic knowledge of mind manipulation techniques that they are trying their hardest to apply those techniques to make it more likely for you to buy their thing. That can be advertisements that repeat twice, it can be ads that are slightly altered the second time, it can be loudness, repetition within the ad, changing words in a catchy tune that you are familiar with, the power of association, you know, showing images using words that have nothing to do with the actual product, agreeable lines etc.

Ads are expensive, but it's not because they work that well. It's because of the exposure to a large quantity of people. Basically what it does best right now is... when you are standing in front of a shelf with different brands of the product you're looking for, you will most likely pick the one that you heard of, that you are 'familiar' with the most. What I'm saying is that marketing is pretty bad at manipulating you, for now. But there is something to keep in mind about marketing: They are well paid teams of professionals targeting untrained individuals, aiming to successfully manipulate you into doing something you didn't want to do. And with enough studies and time and money they may improve over the next decades. It's not unthinkable, right? It's not exactly the same as a random person online sharing an opinion.

But oftentimes they fail miserably. Remember Reggie going: PLAY, THE GAME? That was hilarious right? Nintendo is notorious for being bad at manipulation techniques. And when they don't work it actually becomes counter productive as you become aware of it. You're not going to play the game because Reggie said it, you are going to play it in spite of Reggie saying it. And that's an important point I want to make: you become very aware of these techniques when they fail. In the off chance that they do work, you won't be that aware.

In fact when manipulation works, the target will hardly ever admit that they have been manipulated. Something drastic needs to happen to most targets before they'll admit to it, if ever. Like losing their house because of it. Or losing their family. They just chose to do what they wanted to do. It was their idea all along. It's like admitting to being manipulated is -on top of admitting you've been slightly wrong about something for a while- akin to admitting you are weak minded or not that smart. (Which it didn't seem to have anything to do with in my 10 years of experience with manipulation techniques in my 20's.) You don't want to look like a fool so you won't admit it. There's nothing foolish about it, it's one of the most natural things there is. We base most of our 'voluntary' actions on premises, on assumptions. There's just no other way.

Video games are, not of services but of all products that you can think of the best host for manipulation. You invest(!) money to bring the game onto your(!) system. You invest time, to install it. And then to play it. Investment is huge. Steam culled piracy because of its convenience: less effort. Because of that investment you want it to be good. You are more forgiving and susceptible. It takes little effort to turn on. You will engage with it for hours. And it can have completely manufactured levels of engagement over time. Certain types of manipulation work best when someone is in a trance like state. Which happens to many players at predictable times, like when they're watching a load screen. I know that sounds like some hypnosis hocus pocus but people are actually in a light trance state many times throughout their day. Visibly so. When they're sitting in a bus, when they're getting their hair cut, when they're watching TV, when they're getting up, when you say something that breaks their routine.

And now we get to what worries me about the future of games from companies like EA and Activision: It's the fact that if they manage to make something work not 1 percentile of the time but say 2 percent of the time, then there are going to be hordes of consumers quite energetically defending that practice while being milked for money. And maybe they already managed to get in a technique that works...

Loot boxes are a good example of a mind control technique that works wonders. A mechanic that messes with your mind in a very fundamental way. Skinner box, you know how it works. And they 'monetized' it. What we see happen there scares me. A whole lot of people engaging with a manipulation technique because it's spread through a game that you want to like, that works better because it's just a part of a game that you want to like. A game that you invested in. Result? Quite a few people on forums who actively defend the system, they don't want to admit that maybe it's not a great system because they are being manipulated into doing something they previously(!) didn't want to do. For a fact they do manipulate the mind quite well and for some people dramatically so. They combine that with fake currencies so that you distance yourself from what you're actually doing. A hypnotherapist will tell you something like hypnosis -which is simply manipulation of you in a more susceptible state plus strong rapport - is harmless because it's a form of self hypnosis which is true. But it's not harmless. You won't do anything you don't want to... but you can still be manipulated into doing so, by creating enough of a distance between what you are actually doing and what you think you are doing.

And that should raise a discussion in your head about game design: Are games about being controlled, being engaged and spending the most money? (Those loot box charts are impressive.) Or is there/should there be more to it?

I hope that with this enormous wall of text (sorry) I made clear why I think it's important to be first as consumers. And not wait until the corporations manage to make something somewhat work. This is also why I've been adamantly against any kind of ads in games or on consoles. I wanted a line to be drawn: Never let marketing into a game. Well that kind of failed didn't it? I think that player engagement does not mean player satisfaction. And even player satisfaction does not mean a good game when you lose your house or your savings to it. Stay sharp.

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Litchie

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#4  Edited By Litchie
Member since 2003 • 34610 Posts

They said they would. And EA plus all studios that make games for them are dead to me. **** them for giving my favourite hobby cancer.

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uninspiredcup

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#5  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 58964 Posts

I haven't bought an EA games in years. The last one was the CnC collection of Origin, which was literally the only good, not overpriced deal, and a game series, and studio, they murdered.

If you're still buying EA games at this point, well, you deserve it. Enjoy the constant attempts at having he piss taken out of you.

I mean you only need to look at this guys face for 2 seconds to see pure evil.

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#7  Edited By AdobeArtist  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 25184 Posts

It was only a matter of time. EA gonna EA.

And here's the Gamespot article from another duplicate thread.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-wars-battlefront-2-underperforms-microtransac/1100-6456447/

To which I say; SW Battlefront II undersold because of the manipulative microtransactions. So they're gonna reinforce the mtx. Way to logic EA.

??

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#8 BigBadBully
Member since 2006 • 2367 Posts

Great game and tons of content. I havent had much time n have basic star cards. Never felt over matched against people with maxed star cards. So purchasing loot boxes isnt going to do much except help keep the free content coming for me to play.

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speedfreak48t5p

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#9 speedfreak48t5p
Member since 2009 • 14416 Posts

We knew this was coming.

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deactivated-5cd08b1605da1

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#10  Edited By deactivated-5cd08b1605da1
Member since 2012 • 9317 Posts

Watch EA earning billions with it and laughing at those who complained

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Archangel3371

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#11 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 44172 Posts

I think that they were always going to bring them back in some form regardless of how the game sold.

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R4gn4r0k

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#12 R4gn4r0k
Member since 2004 • 46292 Posts

For me, Battlefront II was the worst game of 2017 by far. Everything it added upon Battlefront I didn't work, was an afterthought or was plain awful (like the singleplayer campaign). Everything it removed from Battlefront I (like competent map design) was duely missed by yours truly.

The star card system, oh god, the star card system ... What can I say ? It was grindy and bad in Battlefront I. It absolutely took the piss out of gamers in Battlefront II.

Hands down the worst game of 2017. I don't believe it having any microtrasactions or not could make the game any worse. But of course making an online only game (again, the singleplayer isn't even worth mentioning) pay to win, is beneath any standards.

I will end on a positive note though, something good I can say about Battlefront II:

It's perhaps the best example on how NOT to do a video game,

Thanks for that EA.

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glez13

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#13 glez13
Member since 2006 • 10310 Posts

It only shipped 9 million copies...*tears*...*tears*...

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DocSanchez

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#15 DocSanchez
Member since 2013 • 5557 Posts

Anyone who thinks this fight is over has another thing coming. A corporation like EA will try to get their grubby way on this until it's literally threatening their existence.

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R4gn4r0k

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#16 R4gn4r0k
Member since 2004 • 46292 Posts

@DocSanchez said:

Anyone who thinks this fight is over has another thing coming. A corporation like EA will try to get their grubby way on this until it's literally threatening their existence.

Yeah the way EA talks to their shareholders it's the CONTROVERSY surrounding lootboxes that caused negative effects on sales. Not the lootboxes themselves.

They are still talking about offering people more choice, through microtransactions, and preparing your wallet.

EA has learned exactly ... Nothing.

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nishanth12

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#17 nishanth12
Member since 2008 • 678 Posts

There and back again..

They deserve the worst company reputation along with BOFA

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uninspiredcup

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#18 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 58964 Posts

@nishanth12 said:

There and back again..

They deserve the worst company reputation along with BOFA

They really are assholes. Even after all this, still splurting out disingenuous C3PO rhetoric assuming everyone is as thick as pig shit.

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SolidButtCheakS

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#19 SolidButtCheakS
Member since 2007 • 65 Posts

Unsurprising, but I don't really care. They make crap games, easy to avoid.

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GiveMeSomething

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#20 GiveMeSomething
Member since 2007 • 1323 Posts

@madrocketeer said:

As I understand it, they're reinstating some kind of microtransactions, but not necessarily pay-to-win, or more accurately in this case, pay-to-gain-advantage. Especially since EA also said they're revamping the progression system in March. They prodded and probed too far and got burned. The whole industry is shaking in their boots because of this; Ubisoft the other day had to put in bold just what a bunch of good guys they are just to cover their backsides. I don't think even EA would be stupid enough to cross that line again, but we'll see.

And while I feel some level of satisfaction that SWBFII missed sales projection specifically because of this loot box mess, 9 million is still a lot of copies sold. It just means they'll be bathing in money instead of swimming in it.

that shit sold 9m copies? are u fucking serious? i wanna off myself if thats true

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madrocketeer

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#21  Edited By madrocketeer
Member since 2005 • 10589 Posts
@GiveMeSomething said:

that shit sold 9m copies? are u fucking serious? i wanna off myself if thats true

Well, I've taken a second look at it, and it appears the 9 million versus 10 million projected figures were actually copies shipped. Game publishers do this all the time; padding their numbers by crowing about how many copies they've shipped. The actual numbers sold, meanwhile as reported to EA's shareholders, is 7 million versus 8 million projected.

Still, the overall story is about the same: SWBFII missing sales projection by about a million copies, probably due to the loot box mess.

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deactivated-60113e7859d7d

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#22  Edited By deactivated-60113e7859d7d
Member since 2017 • 3808 Posts

This would mean something to me if the open beta wasn't boring as ****.

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#24 Johndmgs
Member since 2018 • 323 Posts

@uninspiredcup: Before I saw that guy's name, I thought he was Christiano Ronaldo