Ninja Theory: designing games purely for fans "will kill a series"

http://www.oxm.co.uk/39999/ninja-theory-designing-games-purely-for-fans-will-kill-a-series/

true or not?

I dont think so.

Disagree. If you piss the fans off then they will go online and never shut up about how much the new game will suck. Potential players may catch on to all the negativity and not buy the game.

True

I can see how designing games purely for fans can be a bad thing. You sometimes need to take risks that fans might not really like in order to make a better.

So it can be bad if you design games purely for the fans.

But it can be much worse if you design games to piss off the fans. One of the ways to do this is taking a character fans love and then deciding to turn him into an emo twilight character.

On one hand(I didn't read the ****ing article) yes. If you don't mix it up the franchise will eventually become stale.

On the other hand. Ruining things that weren't wrong with the series is just as bad. The things Ninja Theory struggles with are the type of things DMC excelleed at. Namely gameplay. DMC didn't need a face lift in combat. What it needed was better and more creative level design. DMC4 recycles, and as good of a game as DMC 3 is(it's fantastic as a hack n slash) it has some of the most bland level design in the series. The original had better thought out environments, and combat scenarios. That is an area DMC has consistently struggled with. It's an area Ninja Gaiden 2 struggled with(albeit in that game it was a matter of balance). It's an area Bayonetta did better.

4 also unfortunately shoe horned in Dante, and in his case he's weaker than his DMC 3 counterpart. And in DMC4 Nero's devil bringer(which was a fun mechanic) never gets fleshed out more since he's only going half the game. Going both characters hurt the development of both of them. Going with just one means we would have had a more fleshed out system.

Pacing is another area these games I guess could gain. Not that I mind the rather off the rails pacing of Bayonetta/DMC, but take a look at God of War. On a pure combat and challenge standpoint. It's shallow when compared to the other 2. But it's satisfying as a game because of how well paced it is.

Not designing for the fans will hurt it more than designing it for the fans. You want to know what works best though. Making games that YOU think will be the best based on what people previously liked about the series.

Going "I think Ninja Gaiden would be awesome if it was easier and with only one weapon" well you f****d up. You can be different but you can't make a game that the fans DON'T want.

From Software disagrees....and so do I.

What an idiotic comment for a dev to make. Being all about the money and not about the fans of a specifc gener, they need to join the MS development team.

That really depends on the game that's being designed.

Reading it he makes some good arguements that I have been making for ages.

I agree fully and I can't wait to try out DmC :D

Edit: Also I love this comment:

"From my point of view there's only one way to try and make a successful game, and that's to make the game you want to play. A game that everyone involved is proud of. So from that point of view I don't care if it sells a thousand units or two million units. I believe the time you spend making something has to be worthwhile. You've got 20 productive years of work in your life; if you're gonna spend ten or 15 percent of it on something, make it worthwhile."

Word I think most most developers should follow, but in the end it is a business

Generally speaking no, it's possible to sustain a niche series as long as it's cheap to develop the games and they turn profit in the end.

Castlevania on handhelds has managed to survive with not so impressive sales for almost 20 years, maybe even longer if Konami greenlights another entry.

Certainly in the PS3/360 environment, such a thing isn't possible due to the high costs. It's tough to get noticed with a low budget.

RE4 wasn't for fans and look how that turned out.

This isn't a black/white situation.

I think it depends on the series and the fans. COD probably never needs to look to other fans. Something like, say, Metroid may have to. It's a series that requires high production values but just doesn't bring as much money as it should. With rising costs, I don't see something like Metroid Prime 4 being too profitable in the near future. Sooner or later (based on Other M, Nintendo is thinking sooner), it's gonna have to change or at least find a way to get new buyers with the current method.

Reading it he makes some good arguements that I have been making for ages.

I agree fully and I can't wait to try out DmC :D

Edit: Also I love this comment:

"From my point of view there's only one way to try and make a successful game, and that's to make the game you want to play. A game that everyone involved is proud of. So from that point of view I don't care if it sells a thousand units or two million units. I believe the time you spend making something has to be worthwhile. You've got 20 productive years of work in your life; if you're gonna spend ten or 15 percent of it on something, make it worthwhile."

Word I think most most developers should follow, but in the end it is a business

hayato_

Reading it he makes some good arguements that I have been making for ages.

I agree fully and I can't wait to try out DmC :D

Edit: Also I love this comment:

"From my point of view there's only one way to try and make a successful game, and that's to make the game you want to play. A game that everyone involved is proud of. So from that point of view I don't care if it sells a thousand units or two million units. I believe the time you spend making something has to be worthwhile. You've got 20 productive years of work in your life; if you're gonna spend ten or 15 percent of it on something, make it worthwhile."

Word I think most most developers should follow, but in the end it is a business

hayato_

I hear things people say and believe the opposite. They don't want sales? They want to make a game they want? Then why are you making a Devil May Cry game and not call it something else? Why did they flop the story around due to fan outrage? This is just playing the public and hoping what they make is a fun enough game to keep the DMC fanbase while streamlining it enough to get the mass market.

Build the game you want based off of fan responses ala the Bungie approach

R3FURBISHED

Exactly.

You wont ever be able to make all the fans happy..... and a dev shouldn't try either. But welcoming some fan feed back is good, but the problem with that its usally the outspoken ones on the internet. I think he's right just make a game you can be proud of, and improve from there taking feedback from fans on what not.

Examples of that? I've only ever seen of games that change to a point where it either makes or breaks the game. Majority of the time breaks it leading to bad feedback. Very rarely do developers even try to appeal to fanbases as of late. It's all about the masses. Sooner or later even the casual masses of this generation will become insignificant and be dubbed fans. Capcom has completely wiped their old fanbases out of their minds.

The only ones truly trying to appeal to fans anymore are indie developers and maybe a few developers on kickstarter programs. The rest just jump on the CoD/WoW cashwagon.

True. Listen to fans too much and you'll make a horrid game.

Uh, obviously true? Fans, with very few exceptions, fall somewhere between a stupid but enthusiastic dog and, well, stupid. As the developer it's supposed to be your vision; if you're letting the real-life equivalent of Andy from Parks & Rec dictate design, it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate what exactly it is you're trying to accomplish.*

*The exception obviously being multiplayer and complex singleplayer games, since there's no way in hell you're gonna make those work without beta testing.

True! Team Ninja didn't make NG3 for their fans, and now they're drowning in critical acclaim.

Slashkice

Uh, obviously true? Fans, with very few exceptions, fall somewhere between a stupid but enthusiastic dog and, well, stupid. As the developer it's supposed to be your vision; if you're letting the real-life equivalent of Andy from Parks & Rec dictate design, it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate what exactly it is you're trying to accomplish.*

*The exception obviously being multiplayer and complex singleplayer games, since there's no way in hell you're gonna make those work without beta testing.

Slow_Show

That's kind of true for single games, not for big series. Bioware owes it's time in it's spotlight for example only because of it's fans. There's been fan displeasure for a while now and they didn't listen to the fans and did a quick ending that the fans didn't want, now what's happening?

The problem is that you don't get things for nothing, the Biodrones knocked on Biowares door and said "yep, it's time to pay what you owe." It's going to be hard to recover, Bioware is in the middle of a big debate on what to do with them. Same thing is starting to happen with Capcom. Now Ninja Theory is (probably) going to botch DMC. If you build up a fanbase that support you through your decisions you can't be a lone gunslinger anymore eventually you're going to have to pay your dues.

Ninja Theory either better give the fans what they want with this or they ARE going to pay what they owe and if they can't the party's over. This is the real world.

I can see how designing games purely for fans can be a bad thing. You sometimes need to take risks that fans might not really like in order to make a better.

So it can be bad if you design games purely for the fans.

But it can be much worse if you design games to piss off the fans. One of the ways to do this is taking a character fans love and then deciding to turn him into an emo twilight character.

alfredooo

Such as the new Devil May Cry?

I think this pretty much confirms it for anyone who had doubts, RIP DMC, it was fun knowing ya.

Not exactly what he said. He was talking more about developing for imaginary demographics. I would recommend reading the full interview it was really interesting.

If you want to blame anyone.... Look at capcom. All ninja theory needs to do is make a game they actually like. Sure going to the fanbase sounds like a good idea, but its not.

From Software disagrees....and so do I.

What an idiotic comment for a dev to make. Being all about the money and not about the fans of a specifc gener, they need to join the MS development team.

casharmy

Welcome to the real world. Welcome to business.

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

From Software disagrees....and so do I.

What an idiotic comment for a dev to make. Being all about the money and not about the fans of a specifc gener, they need to join the MS development team.

MLBknights58

Welcome to the real world. Welcome to business.

Disagree. If you piss the fans off then they will go online and never shut up about how much the new game will suck. Potential players may catch on to all the negativity and not buy the game.

BPoole96

Too bad the so-called fans are impossible to please, eh?

And no, CoD still sells great despite all the bashing that's going on gaming forums and various sites.

I completely agree. Making a game for nothing but the fans is a terrible way to go about development, that's why we're not developers and they are.

Plus, this quote is just pure gold: Not to demean prostitutes - it's a valid form of commerce.

True. Listen to fans too much and you'll make a horrid game.

ChubbyGuy40

I do quote you sir. The truth on some games.

You gotta know how the straddle the line. You probably shouldn't make a game PURELY for the fans and just copy/paste their demands into your game, no, although you can't really just completely forget them. You should bring back familiar elements from previous games while thinking of new things for teh next game to make it unique.

This is happening with many franchises.

Look at Splinter Cell Conviction. Some may call it a reinvention of stealth. No. It was a action/shooter. If anything they tried to reinvent the action genre & slap the Splinter Cell name on it

The Stealth the series was known for still had ways to reinvent, or ways to evolve. There was still much more potential there but instead they chose to ignore the series main attributes, basterdize the franchise & appeal to the masses of action fans

Resident Evil has done this as well. The only real way we can stop this is to fight with our wallets. Look what just happened with Ninja Gaiden3. This sends a clear message to the devs with the all of the crtical failure, & fans ignoring the game.

Sure, lets make Dark Souls 2 like pac man then, so more may play it

Bad games kill a series, for example Final Fantasy series and Ninja Gaiden series are now totally dead and i would never buy such a game ever again

He's right.

I could name a few franchises that are incredibly stagnant because more of the same is all the fans want.

True. Listen to fans too much and you'll make a horrid game.

ChubbyGuy40

That's one side of the coin, but the other is to dumb your game down to the masses by for instance removing RPG elements from ME to make it a big hit, meanwhile alienating your core audience which is RPG fans.

Or, Castlevania LoS: It's a game with god of war gameplay with fantasy presentation as opposed to goth style, i.e. not a Castlevania game, a huge disappointment for me as a fan of the series. It's not the natural progression of the franchise or a spin-off take, every creative decision was made for the sake of raking in cash.

That's the bad kind of ignoring a fanbase.

That's one side of the coin, but the other is to dumb your game down to the masses by for instance removing RPG elements from ME to make it a big hit, meanwhile alienating your core audience which is RPG fans.

SuperFlakeman

Really that has nothing to do at all with not listening to the fans. That's pure casualization/being a bunch of ignorant f**ks. Not listening to the fans as in, don't let them decide/make changes.

RE4 wasn't for fans and look how that turned out.

This isn't a black/white situation.

Aljosa23

Exactly, I think the best we can hope for is quality. It doesn't matter how much or little a game panders to fans as long as its a great game. Too much and it stagnates, change too much and you just better hope its good.

True! Team Ninja didn't make NG3 for their fans, and now they're drowning in critical acclaim.

Slashkice

given how different Ninja Theory's DMC looks from the old DMC.

you know what would solve their problem?

call it something else. why piggy back on an existing franchise?

ohh...right..

$$$

because launching new IP's is too dangerous.

in this case i cant entirely blame them they did try to do Heavenly Sword and Journey to the West, both of which i thought were solid games but did not sell well (I bought both).