Thomas Jefferson statue removed from NYC hall.

There was no mob in this story. Are your view points that flimsy that you have to resort to lying every time? It's pathetic at this point.

You mentioned a mob. There was no mob.

I fail to see the disconnect here. Late night at the troll farm?

@HoolaHoopMan: It's always projection.

I mentioned several statues, plural, which clearly means I am not speaking of one specific event. Again, you lack basic reading comprehension. Several statues have been destroyed or defaced by angry mobs, and threats of such acts have forced even more to be removed. This is not democracy, it's terrorism. Specifically on the Jefferson statue, given you can't even get everyone in your tiny little bubble on GS to agree with it, I would say a considerable amount of the population has a problem with it, and they were never asked, never polled, never voted on the matter. It was done purely my a small collective of fuckwits on the city console for the sole purpose of being divisive and insulting.

@eoten: But you included this statue in your sample!

Look at the thread title and then spend some time contemplating why your post is some B-grade deflection then.

Ahh typical Eoten.

People here don't fail at reading comprehension, most people just catch you on your lie. What you are doing is a Ship of Theseus argument. Where you are subtlely changing small parts and moving certain goalposts in your argument, in order not to be proven wrong. Unfortunately people caught you on your lies. And rather than owning up to it, you are insulting people who are way smarter than you.

But I must say, I am honestly glad, the US is taking this direction. From what I can gather, founding fathers worship only really started AFTER the civil war. Prior to this they were actually quite heavily criticized for being unable to solve some SERIOUS issues that plagued the US back then, postponing things for way longer than they needed to be. With many, large movements protesting them, back during their time.

Their accomplishments should be acknowledged of course. But they were deeply flawed individuals. And honestly many of them werent all that great. There were far more shrewd, and talented leaders around at the same time, and leaders were far more capable than them in the years to come in the US.

Worship of them stifles conversations and holds the nation back. The US can do far better than these old leaders, and I know this because it has, many times. Whether it is Abraham Lincoln, The Roosevelts, LBJ.

@vl4d_l3nin: have you ever heard of this particular statue before this story? Not every piece of art has equal value or is even worth saving.

Eh, it's a relative game.

People are products of their times, and no one is perfect. In the end, the question should be: "which actions did X person commit which were morally just vs morally reprehensible respective to their overall contributions towards the greater good?" If Jefferson had slaves, as awful as it is to say, I think his contributions towards the establishment of this nation outweigh considerations that would detract from them.

Isn't that really how all historical figures are wagered? This isn't to absolve the moral implications of partaking in slavery, only to say that in the grander scheme, moral character should be ascertained in a broader context. And if we're to ignore that context in the tearing down of statues heralding the greater one, how is that a just judgement of his historical contribution?

Why is worshiping people such a (seemingly)big thing in US?

@horgen: Because it's a proxy for other battles and ideologies.

i really dont know and i given up some one.

when ps5 fan boy as nazi level dear leader. the moment you question there god cerny..... they will send death threats.

(i gotten 2 now from those crazy bastards) fowards any and all info to sites and the police.

They should replace him with our great saint George Floyd.

Pretty much every country does it.

Here, William Wallace and Robert The Bruce.

William Wallace case is very obv, the movie. Which is about as detached from reality as you can get. But some people genuinely couldn't seem to distinguish from reality.

He would be the equivalent today to something akin to the Taliban or ISIS doing horrible ass shit as that was the norm back then.

Likewise, Robert The Bruce was out for himself and a straight-up murderer.

But... we have statues of them everywhere. And I myself do admire them, taking into account they are not some perfect romanized hero.

While they would be objectively awful by modern standards, it would also be stupid to deny what they achieved, represent and contributed.

On the one hand, get it. This nationalist "you can't critique our lord and savour" mentality is dumb, but at the same time, I think if are expected squeaky clean to be the norm just as naive.

Like, nuance is a thing. Where you're like, expected to have an adult brain.

*shrug*

I think we can spare Thomas Jefferson's legacy but not the statue mind you since he's always opposed slavery...well sort of. As for George Washington, I think he's at neutral but was really opposed slavery. He wrote his will that his wife once dies, all of his slavery would be freed ,but Martha decided to release all of them immediately. I'd say to spare him as well since he was our 1st U.S President.

Oh, I wonder about White House since its symbol was based on white supremacist. But since Obama took office, some fear he would change the White House but that since that never was the case nor he really care, I doubt anyone thinks its a symbol white supremacist.

Ffs, you don't build statues to worship people, you do it to honor and respect them. Are these concepts really so foreign to you? Why is there a wall of Vietnam deaths? Why is there a monument over the USS Arizona? Why does George Floyd have a wall? Should we tear down Floyd's murals because it's just idol worship, and an inanimate object, right?

But you knew all of that. You're just trying to make excuses for those taking actions against them because you are in agreement with their motives.

WALL EQUALS PEOPLE. You heard it here first folks.

We have gone over before (even in this thread I think) why some statues were erected and it was not to honor or respect them. But you didn't answer my question at all, you went off-road somewhere and knowing you you're never going back on track again.

Your question wasn't even remotely a question. It was a derogatory accusation that people who oppose the removal of these statues are somehow "worshipping" the individuals they represent. Statues are no different than walls or murals. Each is erected to represent people for the purpose of honoring and respecting them. The TJ statue was removed explicitly to do the opposite as evident by the comments made by city board members in relation to it. It was done to piss people off.

or done to .... Stop honoring him.

Being "woke" isn't the answer to healing the country. You can't accuse one side of dividing then do the same thing.

@LJS9502_basic: Leaving up statues to slave owners in a country with a large slave descendant population seems pretty divisive.

If the people don't want to honor Thomas Jefferson why should they?

Respect is earnt, not given. And by voting to remove the statue and remove it with due process. It is clear that Thomas Jefferson has lost their respect, if he even had it in the first place. Insincere tributes, does not do anyone any good.

People didn't vote for that. Officials decided.

I'd rather not have Republicans winning elections but knee jerk reactions like this will give them votes.

@LJS9502_basic: If removing a statue from a city hall is what makes someone vote R, then their priorities are wildly misplaced, lol.

I didn't say it wasn't divisive. I said leaving leaving up monuments to slave owners is divisive, too.

For someone who constantly tells people they can't read, you do an awful lot of misreading others' statements. Is it intentional?

there's no winning solution here. you're going to piss off someone.

they voted and decided to remove it. agree or disagree as you will, the processes was followed.

Derogatory accusation? You have to explain that one.