Salon: Let's all stop ignoring Fandom Menace

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#1 nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 41533 Posts

Salon

One of the first highly public instances of "Ms. Marvel"trolling happened nearly a decade ago, courtesy of Stephen Colbert. "Ladies and gentlemen, America has lost another battle in the culture war, which is surprising because we've got all the guns," he says. "This time the battlefield is comic books. And folks, that saddens me because I'm a fan."

Colbert was referring to Marvel's announcement in November 2013 that Kamala Khan, a Muslim teenager from Jersey City, was set to assume the Ms. Marvel mantle.

"This affront has taken me aback. A Muslim cannot be a superhero, for Pete's sake! They're on the no-fly list," Colbert imperiously huffs. ". . . It's even more upsetting when you consider the original Ms. Marvel. She was wholesome and all-American! Blonde! Family values! With two bulging chest muscles and clearly wearing her Sunday church panties! This is nothing more than Sharia creep, plain and simple."

Since this rant was brought to us by "The Colbert Report," Colbert's hallowed satire of right-wing talk shows in which he parodied Bill O'Reilly and other Fox News windbags, the audience understood it to be a bit.

Nearly a decade later another group of self-important white guys are railing against Kamala Khan's right to exist in the Marvel Universe. The difference is they're not joking, even if some of them insist that they are.

The actors are as varied as their motivations, you see. Some engage in review bombing, as they did to Disney+'s "Ms. Marvel" hours after its debut, because it's an easy way to kick what they see as the social justice warrior hornet's nest. Others camp out on in Facebook groups that have been recycled to manufacture the illusion of inflated offense for their own entertainment.

"Obi-Wan Kenobi" star Moses Ingram was their most recent target, and her harassment and Disney's response, including a video post from Ewan McGregor that defended her, was widely reported. Not long before Ingram made her "Obi-Wan" debut as Inquisitor Reva Sevander, bigots piled on to newcomer Leah Jeffries when Disney announced she'd been cast as the new Annabeth Chase in the upcoming Disney+ adaptation of "Percy Jackson and the Olympians."

All of this is either directly or tangentially a decentralized web referred to as The Fandom Menace, a group of extremely online comic book and "Star Wars" zealots that coalesced around a shared dislike for Rian Johnson's Lucasfilm sequel "Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi."

Some of the trolls claim allegiance to that label, others merely qualify for membership. Even those who don't consider themselves a part of it or decry their disturbing attack patterns may contribute to their success without meaning to do so.

Regardless of how they identify, each is a cancer cell in a larger amorphous hate blob descended from Gamergate and Comicsgate, infecting the fandoms of the most ubiquitous entertainment franchises in the world – mainly Marvel, Star Wars and other Disney titles.

It's also leaderless and therefore easily deniable, allowing it to proliferate in spaces designed to be escapist and unserious. Because of this, most journalist coverage of fantasy- or comic book-related TV and movies caters to consumers engaging with these shows and films in good faith, in the form of episodic analysis or the specific artistry informing its visuals and scripts.

This may be the reason that our coverage and condemnation of these hate eruptions has taken on a reflexive pattern, too. I've certainly been guilty of this in this publication and elsewhere: We report on the offense, quote the reactions of person being targeted and amplify the voices rallying to support them. We boost the notion that malignant actors within fandoms are limited to a small group that excels at being louder than the reasonable majority.

We trust that by exposing each incident is enough, that the hatred toward the latest targeted actor will fade, which it usually does. We close the loop by expecting there to be another incident, and already knowing the reason, guaranteeing the cycle will begin anew.

It's easier to brace for impact, enact communications triage and wait for the problem to go away than to examine what's motivating the people behind these hate campaigns.

And there are answers to that question beyond the simplest, which is good old-fashioned racism. Don't get me wrong – that's enough of a reason for someone to devote a few minutes of time and mouse clicks to do their part in tanking the ratings on a show they view as a progressive agitprop.

The attacks on Ingram and Jeffries before her, and the campaign devoted to downplaying their severity in the wake of them, requires us to at least begin to grapple with where these campaigns begin and how each, in their own way, may contribute to the larger political efforts to mainstream white supremacy and radicalize the disaffected.

Geekdom went mainstream decades ago, but it's still commonly viewed through a filter of adolescent harmlessness. This is useful for the purposes of Facebook groups such as Christians Against Ms. Marvel, a private forum whose purported founder, a character calling themselves Wade Wilson – a troll in itself – describes its purpose as follows:

"Ms Marvel might be the biggest slap in the face for conservative Christians to date!!! Disney has decided that the face of this franchise should not be Carol Danvers but should instead be a gay Muslim. no more straight Christian characters from Marvel. those days are over. please join us as we let Disney know that we will not BE CANCELLED!!!"

That's . . . a point of view. Plausible, too, considering the right-wing Christian conservative protests over Disney's inclusive policies. However, tempting as it may be to correct factual errors in the page's so-called mission statement (Kamala Khan is neither gay nor replacing Carol Danvers) examining details about the page itself is much more informative.

The group's history reveals that it's only been called "Christians Against Ms. Marvel" since June 7, the day before the series debuted. Before that it was "Christians Against Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness." Before that, it was called "Christians Against Turning Red."

This page's "Christians," in fact, have also been against: Disney in general; "Marvel's The Eternals"; "Spider-Man: No Way Home"; "Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings"" "The Loki Series"[sic]; "The Little Mermaid" ( presumably in a different way than "Christian's Against the Little Mermaid (Boycott Halle Bailey)," which my colleague Ashlie Stevens wrote about). Its anti-Disney, anti-inclusive stance stretches back to December 29, 2020 . . . when the page was titled "Twisted Tea for Mitch McConnell."

But it's also quite clearly someone's idea of a long-running joke. The page claims 18,000 attention-seeking goblins, likely seeing a place to blow off steam by triggering the libs, strictly for the lolz. It's only "Wade Wilson's" second most popular page, though, coming in behind the 39,000 member strong "Linda Skeens Secret Cookbook" which merely 24 hours ago went by "Helen Keller Never Existed."

Laughing off pages like this one is simple. Review bombing, less so.

This is another a recurring strategy on database-driven movie and TV sites that posting aggregate scores of user ratings. The tactic's goal is to create the illusion that a show or TV series is a creative bomb by intentionally depressing their audience ratings with a barrage of one-star reviews or their equivalent. These ratings are easy to game on sites lacking specific measures to curb abuses, which is what Rotten Tomatoes did in 2019 following a coordinated bombing of its audience rating for "Captain Marvel."

IMDb star ratings remain stunningly simple to manipulate it seems. On June 9 "Ms. Marvel" was polling at a 6.6. out of 10, thanks to 22.2% of the site's reviewers giving the series one star. This dragged down the 39.5% giving it 10 stars, a fair share of which was probably contributed by users attempting to restore balance to the scale.

It didn't work in the long run. Today "Ms. Marvel" has a 6.1 user review rating, with the percentage of one-star votes having risen to 27.2. A person can simply claim that a lot of people don't like the series, but if that were so the RT audience ratings would resemble IMDb's. It doesn't, and by a significant margin.

On the surface these two examples likely rate as annoying ploys to gain attention or take swipes at a giant media conglomerate that ultimately doesn't factor juvenile backlash into its decision-making process. But they also serve as a distraction from the more dangerous problem posed by a handful of YouTube influencers such as Geeks + Gamers or TheQuartering, whose bread and butter is anti-"Star Wars" and anti-Marvel videos.

Successful review bombing efforts, in fact, provide such influences with a data point "proving" the rectitude of their complaints about diversity.

An exhaustive, extensively researched 2021 Medium post authored by Rewriting Ripley draws a connection between "Star Wars"' toxic fandom and these YouTube personalities and the right-wing ecosphere that came before them, and continues to nourish them. Everyone should read it to gain a greater understanding of how these figures profit off racism and misogyny in ways that aren't obvious prima facie, but are not well-hidden either.

Geeks + Gamers and TheQuartering, the YouTube vlogger moniker for Jeremy Hambly, style themselves as pop culture gatekeepers. Individuals associated Geeks + Gamers, including its founder Jeremy Griggs and contributor Ryan Kinel, also leveraging their brands as gateways to alt-right ideology via their personal YouTube channels.

Griggs, for example, has more than 101,000 subscribers to his channel operating under the handle DDayCobra, where he posts video with titles such as "Freedom Truckers Are Making Canada Great Again" and, in one video on posted on January 6, 2021, explains the rioting mob as the result of "we, the people" being "fed up" while decrying the violence. A second video posted the same day floats the conspiracy theory blaming the violence on the antifa boogeyman and Black Lives Matter activists.

That video is titled "The Media Is The Enemy Of The People," a favorite phrase of the 45th president that has a history of being invoked by Joseph Stalin, as well as the Nazis in Germany after the first World War. And if you know how YouTube's algorithms work, you can guess which videos begin surfacing alongside these.

Of course, each of these men is sophisticated enough in their approach to prevent running afoul of YouTube community guidelines. Instead of using slurs, they invoke terms like "woke" and rail against "SJWs" ruining the "Star Wars" universe.

None of them make specific calls for harassment or violence against the targets of their harangues which, when there isn't a woman of color to go after or Amber Heard isn't in the news, tends to be Lucasfilm president (and this group's Darth) Kathleen Kennedy.

Importantly, they and others go out of their way to insist that none of their vitriol comes from a racist place and condemn violence. But such disclaimers tend to be adjacent to gaslighting or misinformation diatribes. A popular recent one cast doubt on Ingram's reports about the nature of her harassment and Disney's assertion that racism exists among the "Star Wars" fandom.

If that's so, one popular argument goes, why didn't we hear of any racist backlash over Ming-Na Wen's casting in "The Mandalorian" and "The Book of Boba Fett" or Rosario Dawson taking on the role of Ahsoka Tano? This obviously ignores the salient fact that Wen and Dawson probably have longer careers and more managerial layers between them and their online fans and haters, whereas Ingram, Jeffries and others appear to run their own social media accounts, making it easier for trolls to see the tangible impact of their attacks.

For example, enough trolls bombarded TikTok's admins with enough fake violation reports to get both of Jeffries' accounts de-platformed in the wake of her "Percy Jackson" casting.

Another reframes the statement the official "Star Wars" Twitter accountposted in support of Ingram that reads, "If anyone intends to make her feel in any way unwelcome, we have only one thing to say: we resist," as being directed at anyone who doesn't like the series.

We know Reva got a lot of backlash for her acting, for her spot in the story, for her importance, for everything she knew, for the continuity, a lot of different things," Kinel spews in a reaction video. "Lucasfilm wants to paint anyone that didn't like this character as a racist because they continue to attack fans."

And monetizing the outrage of the disillusioned is lucrative: If you consider that a YouTube personality can make around $18 per 1,000 ad views, equating to $3 to $5 per 1,000 video views, you begin to understand why a few of these men, and mainly it's men, make it their job to pump out multiple videos a day.

Griping about wokeness ruining "Star Wars" and the MCU is big business, and in case you haven't been paying attention to these folks – and for the most part, the average viewer, moviegoer and entertainment journalist hasn't – business is good, because these concepts have been mainstreamed. What are complaints about racebending roles or casting for diversity if not a weaker version of the so-called Great Replacement Theory? You know, just asking questions.

Sexism and racism abided in genre fandom long before the "Star Wars" sequels were an itch in George Lucas' brain. (Ask any of the graying geeks and Trekkers in your orbit who sought likeminded souls on message boards or at comic book conventions back in the '90s or the aughts.)

Only recently has that bigotry metastasized effectively enough to produce a predictable repetition of outrage cycles, coinciding with efforts by media corporations to cast more inclusively – and, more to the point, in the wake of Gamergate. This is not an accident.

In 2014 Gamergate tested how effectively misogynistic, racist fandom could be harnessed and weaponized against individuals designated as stand-ins for entire groups of people.

The people involved claimed to be fed up with the creeping incursion of progressivism in the gaming industry. In reality they were channeling untapped white male rage that eventually came for Kelly Marie Tran, whose character Rose Tico became a favorite punching bag among the Menace, along with Leslie Jones and Zendaya, who had the nerve to be cast as MJ in Tom Holland's "Spider-Man" movies.

One of the takeaways from this culture-shifting ordeal was the effectiveness of this apparently leaderless mob's narrowly directed campaigns of harassment, including doxing. What we failed to comprehend is that the mob never really dispersed. It merely redirected its efforts to other targets, mainly women of color, and evolved its methods.

All of this begs for Disney and other corporations to use their power to take concrete steps to protect the Black, brown, Asian, Indigenous and non-white actors it continues to hire in these roles. Public statements are one step, but they can also be coupled with preemptive protections they could enact on their talent's social media accounts.

If Disney found a way to alert TikTok of the hatred it correctly predicted was coming Jeffries' way, would she have had her accounts suspended? If they devoted similar resources toward sheltering Ingram from online hatred, how might that have impacted the narrative being misshapen by far-right leaning personalities masquerading as guardians of the "Star Wars" and Marvel faiths?

A more alarming truth, however, is that the fandom's toxicity may be too far gone to effectively eradicate it. The Rewriting Ripley post acknowledges this, despite describing its article as "a plea for any entity that has enough power to control a narrative... to be aware of how hate is designed to manipulate those narratives without most people ever realizing it."

Its title is, "In Plain Sight: How White Supremacy, Misogyny, and Hate Targeted the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy and Won."

Pull up a chair, this is gonna be a long one. But it beautifully covers WTF is wrong with fandoms these days, especially with politics (hence why it's on this forum, and not say, OT).

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#2  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58305 Posts

I really enjoy Ms Marvel. Out of all the Marvel series released in the past couple years--Loki, Wandavision, Moon Knight, etc--I think this is my favorite.

I think there is room for both the archetypical American ass-kicker and the multiethnic/multiracial ass-kicker.

I am a white dude, definitely left-leaning but tries to be moderate...I will be honest, my innate "WTF is this woke?" alarm was triggered when I watched the show initially. But I was aware of it and powered through it, and I was rewarded with a really great show.

I don't understand the conservative complaints, all it does is show their bigotry. They want their heroes to be, ideally, white Americans. At the very least American. And if not American, than American fanboys or American converts.

It's more educational than woke. I don't know anything about Pakistani culture and history and it was nice hearing it in this show. Likewise, the characters poke good-natured fun at their own culture (and even some of its problems, for example relating to Islam and treatment of different genders). It reminds me a lot of Lovecraft Country; they would reference something, then I'd have to pause the show because I'd never heard of it, google it, and then read about it for 30 minutes before I got back to the show lol. I really love it when things are educational and entertaining.

As for the show itself, it has good pacing. The actors from what I read are not really well-known, but they are endearing and do the job well enough.

The art style and cinematography or whatever you call it is really cool. The progression of the hero Ms Marvel is great, she really has no clue what she is doing but she still has a "hero's spirit" so she ends up doing the right thing.

My only gripe is that it's a little too much teenage high school nonsense but that's just the nature of the show and not really a serious problem.

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Zaryia

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#3  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts

The right wing incels calling everything that isn't a white straight male as "woke" does indeed get annoying at times.

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mrbojangles25

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#4 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58305 Posts

@zaryia said:

The right wing incels calling everything that isn't a white straight male as "woke" does indeed get annoying at times.

Yeah, it is.

I'll be honest though there are a lot of SJW's and woke people out there, my innate response every time I see something (in an entertainment medium) is to lean towards "What is this woke shit?" if it is going more towards very obvious, very heavy social, racial, and political commentary. I think that is more towards me wanting to get away from the real world and not wanting to be reminded of it, though, and less about race lol.

I manage to keep it in check for the most part lol. It only bugs me when things are disproportionate. Representation is fine but if your show has five trans people and it's not a show about trans people, you're overdoing it.

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#5 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 3700 Posts

Griping about wokeness ruining "Star Wars" and the MCU is big business, and in case you haven't been paying attention to these folks – and for the most part, the average viewer, moviegoer and entertainment journalist hasn't – business is good, because these concepts have been mainstreamed.

LOL.

Wokeness is not mainstream. That's why Netflix cancels most of their shows after the first season. What is mainstream is established franchises Star Wars and the MCU. Those will do well no matter what trite you put in it.

Has there ever been an original woke franchise that was successful? I'm seriously struggling to think of one.

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#6 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178844 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:

Griping about wokeness ruining "Star Wars" and the MCU is big business, and in case you haven't been paying attention to these folks – and for the most part, the average viewer, moviegoer and entertainment journalist hasn't – business is good, because these concepts have been mainstreamed.

LOL.

Wokeness is not mainstream. That's why Netflix cancels most of their shows after the first season. What is mainstream is established franchises Star Wars and the MCU. Those will do well no matter what trite you put in it.

Has there ever been an original woke franchise that was successful? I'm seriously struggling to think of one.

Star Trek

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#7 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 3700 Posts

@LJS9502_basic: Keyword "original". TOS was hardly woke. They wouldn't even allow female captains back then.

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#8  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 21607 Posts

Star Wars critical failure had nothing to do with "muh woke". The scripts were shit and not well planned.

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#9 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178844 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:

@LJS9502_basic: Keyword "original". TOS was hardly woke. They wouldn't even allow female captains back then.

TOS certainly was. They addressed the issues of the day, racism, Viet Nam War etc. You just didn't know what you were watching apparently. Educate yourself.

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#10  Edited By uninspiredcup
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I kinda hate that pop culture has become a battleground for screeching assholes. Be it your Geeks + Gamers types or Polygon type jerkoffs coming across as actively stupid.

With these types of tampons it's not really about objective criticism as it is hijacking said thing to blab about their political bias.

Gamespot is guilty of that as well. The staff get extremely obnoxious treating the front-page as their political blog.

A lot of new Starwars does suck ass. And Nutrek is garbage poo.

Not because "le_woke" but "le_shit_writing".

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#11 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178844 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:

I kinda hate that pop culture has become a battleground for screeching assholes. Be it your Geeks + Gamers types or Polygon type jerkoffs coming across as actively stupid.

With these types of tampons it's not really about objective criticism as it is hijacking said thing to blab about their political bias.

Gamespot is guilty of that as well. The staff get extremely obnoxious treating the front-page as their political blog.

A lot of new Starwars does suck ass. And Nutrek is garbage poo.

Not because "le_woke" but "le_shit_writing".

Strange New Worlds is not garbage and Prodigy is okay as well.

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#12 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58305 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:

I kinda hate that pop culture has become a battleground for screeching assholes. Be it your Geeks + Gamers types or Polygon type jerkoffs coming across as actively stupid.

With these types of tampons it's not really about objective criticism as it is hijacking said thing to blab about their political bias.

Gamespot is guilty of that as well. The staff get extremely obnoxious treating the front-page as their political blog.

A lot of new Starwars does suck ass. And Nutrek is garbage poo.

Not because "le_woke" but "le_shit_writing".

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#13 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58305 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:

I kinda hate that pop culture has become a battleground for screeching assholes. Be it your Geeks + Gamers types or Polygon type jerkoffs coming across as actively stupid.

With these types of tampons it's not really about objective criticism as it is hijacking said thing to blab about their political bias.

Gamespot is guilty of that as well. The staff get extremely obnoxious treating the front-page as their political blog.

A lot of new Starwars does suck ass. And Nutrek is garbage poo.

Not because "le_woke" but "le_shit_writing".

Well said.

But it can be entertaining to pick a side and argue ad nauseum about it.

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#14 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23912 Posts

The anti-woke crowd is just as obnoxious as the Iikes of Anita Sarkeesian was back in the day.

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#15  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23912 Posts
@vl4d_l3nin said:

Griping about wokeness ruining "Star Wars" and the MCU is big business, and in case you haven't been paying attention to these folks – and for the most part, the average viewer, moviegoer and entertainment journalist hasn't – business is good, because these concepts have been mainstreamed.

LOL.

Wokeness is not mainstream. That's why Netflix cancels most of their shows after the first season. What is mainstream is established franchises Star Wars and the MCU. Those will do well no matter what trite you put in it.

Has there ever been an original woke franchise that was successful? I'm seriously struggling to think of one.

Quite IiteraIIy both franchises you just Iinked.

But aIso,

  • Star Trek
  • Sonic the Hedgehog
  • Steven Universe
  • The Matrix
  • AIien
  • Handmaids TaIe
  • And so so so many video games I didnt Iist

And some got big after going woke, See FinaI Fantasy with FF7.

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#16 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23912 Posts
@LJS9502_basic said:
@vl4d_l3nin said:

@LJS9502_basic: Keyword "original". TOS was hardly woke. They wouldn't even allow female captains back then.

TOS certainly was. They addressed the issues of the day, racism, Viet Nam War etc. You just didn't know what you were watching apparently. Educate yourself.

WeII said.

I wouId argue that FaIIout 2 was a far more woke game than something Iike tIou2. Despite being more progressive on the surface. What matters is context however.

Trans rights and visibiIity are rather popuIar positions these days. However, back when FaIIout 2 was reIeased. Same sex marriage was nearIy unthinkabIe in most countries.

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#17  Edited By Warm_Gun
Member since 2021 • 2410 Posts

Article is too long. Kathleen Kennedy and Barbara Broccoli both suck. Yes, in part for their ideological motivations, but also because they don't understand or like the material. I want them gone.

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#18  Edited By Warm_Gun
Member since 2021 • 2410 Posts
@uninspiredcup said:

Not because "le_woke" but "le_shit_writing".

Both, and it's sometimes one and the same. What's worse are all the leftists who deny it. But the Fandom Menace is kinda dumb too.

Example:

Loading Video...

"It just, it, uh... I see that, like what you were doing, I see that, that's how I feel. My shoulders just sink, my heart sinks, my stomach sinks."

So then stop consuming. Stop caring. Stop four years ago. I don't get why anyone would be so emotionally invested in something they don't even like. Except if you're forcing yourself to consume so that you can comment on it for the views. Makes it feel so fake.

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#19 deactivated-631373f44e9fd
Member since 2004 • 549 Posts

Its ok they are gonna remake the og trilogy and ruin that too

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#20 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 58952 Posts

@warm_gun: You've just posted two of the most prolific anti-woke people who actively spam it.


Not watching that for 10 seconds let alone 5 minutes.

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#21 Warm_Gun
Member since 2021 • 2410 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:

@warm_gun: You've just posted two of the most prolific anti-woke people who actively spam it.

Not watching that for 10 seconds let alone 5 minutes.

I don't expect you to. Hardly watch the drinker myself. Only linked the video so that you would know the source of my quote.

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#22 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 58952 Posts

@warm_gun: He actively makes me ashamed to be Scottish.

If anyone wants to become a reviewer here's how you do it.

1. Recount the entire plot

2. Spend the rest of the review making fun a 16 year old brown girl, coming up with racist funny names

Loading Video...

Oh, yea, don't forget the cynical gimmick. You must be a comedy character.

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#23 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178844 Posts

@uninspiredcup said:

@warm_gun: He actively makes me ashamed to be Scottish.

If anyone wants to become a reviewer here's how you do it.

1. Recount the entire plot

2. Spend the rest of the review making fun a 16 year old brown girl, coming up with racist funny names

Oh, yea, don't forget the cynical gimmick. You must be a comedy character.

Ah so it's about hate. I won't give clicks to hateful people. You don't like something, don't watch but no one cares about your opinion either. The show is fine by they way. More entertaining than Moon Knight which put me to sleep.

* you is the generic you, not the individual I quoted here.

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MirkoS77

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#24  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17657 Posts

If you expected me to read all that.....well, I did.

Oh look, another excuse to shit on the big, bad white man. Once they finish rubbing one out to the aroma of their own shovelings, perhaps these people should step out of their echo chamber cubicles and go outside for a stroll and a breath of fresh air.

There is certainly an argument to be made towards a sense of entitlement and privilege of fandom towards their franchises. These people are nothing but infants, and should be accorded as such. But there is also an argument to be made that the retroactive alteration of various traits characters were borne into in their inception (such as their religion, sex, ethnicity, beliefs) should not be disregarded and replaced simply for the sake of current political and ideological leanings to be more "inclusive" or "progressive", because these traits extend to the core of the characterization of what fans adore about them. What has made them fans.

When that is shifted, it is a perfectly natural reaction for pushback to occur. Sure, I can understand that there is absolutely a sentiment of resentment in these fans that is being construed as entitlement, immaturity, and bigotry, but people are far too quick to conflate this distinction between genuine infantile entitlement and privilege, and the love and protection of the previously established. Aside, are we suddenly so creatively stagnant that new characters cannot be created from the grassroots, so the imposition of our current political landscape must be laid retroactively on top of the creations of a different period? I understand the desire for progressivism and inclusion and am all for it, but if you're going to fundamentally alter characters from past eras.....they're not the same characters, are they?

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Warm_Gun

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#25  Edited By Warm_Gun
Member since 2021 • 2410 Posts

I didn't watch Kenobi. Knew it was going to be shit, because it's so compromised by the OT-PT sandwich. Watched a few videos about it out of curiosity, which pretty much confirmed it's shit. That video above I only watched because someone posted it on my favorite forum and I often criticize the drinker there. But yeah, it's obvious the damage on Disney Star Wars is partly ideological. The deniers are so full of shit.

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LJS9502_basic

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#26 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178844 Posts

@warm_gun said:

I didn't watch Kenobi. Knew it was going to be shit, because it's so compromised by the OT-PT sandwich. Watched a few videos about it out of curiosity, which pretty much confirmed it's shit. But yeah, it's obvious the damage on Disney Star Wars is partly ideological. The deniers are so full of shit.

It was a good show.

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Warm_Gun

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#27 Warm_Gun
Member since 2021 • 2410 Posts
Loading Video...

Not gonna comment on the de-ageing. It's whatever. But, good lord, that filmmaking looks cheap. Doesn't seem at all like a part of the prequel trilogy. I have not watched any Star Wars TV/streaming but Genndy's Clone Wars and Mandalorian season 1, but this scene here tells me Star Wars needs to be theatrical. Animation is fine too, but I'm not really that interested if it's CG. Animation gets around the cheapness of TV/streaming by being completely artificial. Anyway, I wouldn't even watch this to be a part of the conversation. I'd watch another movie, if it looked decent. Next Star Wars movie, whatever it is and when it finally comes out, probably won't be good. But there's at least a chance I'd watch it, because it would have the production values to duration ratio necessary for a Star Wars story.

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deactivated-631373f44e9fd

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#28 deactivated-631373f44e9fd
Member since 2004 • 549 Posts

The issue is injecting ideologies into already established franchises, rather than creating new ones. Retconning the shit out of them. "AAA" Hollywood is mostly creatively bankrupt. Oh just like the video game industry. Note: I said "mostly"

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LJS9502_basic

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#29 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178844 Posts

@warm_gun: He looked older when he was playing Anakin actually.

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SargentD

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#30 SargentD
Member since 2020 • 8209 Posts

Star Wars died when George Lucas sold the rights to it.

Marvel died with Stan Lee.